KO Traveling Hobo
Member
That article reminds me of that Three Little Pigs book that was told from the Wolf's perspective. :lol
Lord of the Rings - Do you think it's racist?
- Thread starter viciouskillersquirrel
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Count of Monte Sawed-Off said:
The fact that all of the main cast is White is not the concern, it's his portrayal of the "enemy" ("The Orcs are stated to be curruption of the human form seen in Elves an Men. They are squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes;in fact, degraded and repulsive versions of the least lovely Mongol types") and the war between them that raises questions.
grandjedi6
Master of the Google Search
viciouskillersquirrel said:That's the best part
Whether you agree with the article I linked to or not, it raises some great points (perhaps less about Tolkien and more about the black/white (lawful good/chaotic evil) tropes in fiction and mythology in general) and one I found really intriguing was this passage:
I severly doubt Lord of the Rings has an unreliable narrator. One of many reasons being that LotRs has an omniscient narrator in the 3rd person.
Using that logic you can accuse anyone and everyone of "subconsciously harbouring racist attitudes". So unless you can prove this is true of Tolkein specifically your entire argument is rather pointless.
viciouskillersquirrel
Member
I wasn't saying that it does. In that passage, the author is talking more about the absolute good/evil dynamic inherent in romantic stories than LotR specifically.grandjedi6 said:
I can't prove anything and in truth, I wasn't trying to - it's a work of fiction. It'd be as though I wanted to prove that the Amtrak Wars series was fascist. Some might think it is, some might not. I just wanted to know what people thought about this.grandjedi6 said:
a Master Ninja
Member
Edit: Nevermind
viciouskillersquirrel
Member
:Oetiolate said:
But they were on the good side!
harSon said:
QFT. I find a lot of enjoyment out of most forms of entertainment when it's discussed afterwards, especially when it's something worth dissecting.
As for LOTR, I've always picked up the light/dark theme in the basic good/evil sense, and nothing more. But I can see why people get all up in arms about it. They can go read the Earthsea books, which I actually prefer more.
Boombloxer
Member
harSon said:
In a nutshell, this.
It changes over time. Until then...
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
It's honestly kind of misfortunate that the black color is so associated with evil and bad stuff. I do believe that in LOTR, the enemies are all in black and dark colors because in our culture to this day dark and black equals evil more so than any other color. In LOTR, things are very simple in that sense. Evil is evil, good is good, very little gray area there, the differentiation is simple and strong, and signified with the most obvious color choices.
Why is dark = evil in our culture, I won't pretend to know, but it wouldn't surprise me if it has nothing to do with racism and everything to do with innate fear of shadows and sounds during the night, a time of day where people, and especially kids, would always feel more scared and vulnerable.
Why is dark = evil in our culture, I won't pretend to know, but it wouldn't surprise me if it has nothing to do with racism and everything to do with innate fear of shadows and sounds during the night, a time of day where people, and especially kids, would always feel more scared and vulnerable.
Learn2read
Member
Passively racist at most, he was creating a alternate mythology for Britain, a man of his time simply wouldn't think anything else but British=White, there was no maliciousness behind it.
viciouskillersquirrel
Member
Woman, you mean.Mashing said:
The Take Out Bandit
Member
Well, if there's reincarnation; maybe I'll come back and a perpetually whingeing person of color to bitch about whitey.
In the meantime I'm going to enjoy the epic tales of badasses being badasses and what not.
I say instead of focusing on bitching about whitey, do something about putting your own culture, folktales, and cool shit out there for my consumption. I'm game for anything involving hordes of people clobbering each other. See also my raging hard-on for R3K stuff.
In the meantime I'm going to enjoy the epic tales of badasses being badasses and what not.
I say instead of focusing on bitching about whitey, do something about putting your own culture, folktales, and cool shit out there for my consumption. I'm game for anything involving hordes of people clobbering each other. See also my raging hard-on for R3K stuff.
Night_Trekker
Member
Whoa, whoa... everyone is so worried about the missing "brown people" in Middle Earth. What about the missing Asians?
That's pretty much it in a nutshell.
mamacint said:
That's pretty much it in a nutshell.
harSon said:
Don't read racism into the 'Mongol types' quote. It's just another way of saying "Orcs. They're gross. Think, like, messed-up versions of the ugliest Chinese dudes you've ever seen." He's not commenting on the appearance or character of 'Mongol types' in general - just saying that the Orcs look like a degraded version of their least attractive people.
And seriously, Sauron, Saruman and the Orcs/Goblins/Uruks are the main bad guys; all utterly free of racial allegory. The Oriental pirates, elephant-riding Africans and scimitar-wielding Arabs are just exotic mercenaries from far off lands who are fighting for the bad guy. He could just as easily have used a battalion of evil ninjas, and most of us wouldn't have read a commentary on the whole Japanese nation into their actions. But a group of demonic black-skinned men going to war on elephants is apparently representative of the entire population of Africa, and Tolkien's literary treatment of them ought to be viewed as indicative of his racial biases...
Byakuya769
Member
The Take Out Bandit said:
Hmm, so anyone thinking that there are racist undertones in LOTR must be a "person of color perpetually whining and bitching about whitey".
I didn't really get that from reading this thread, but I'm glad we have you to come into it and explain it for us
... my man.
sonikokaruto
Banned
so if a bunch of aliens, came, invaded, and when some people call them "the enemy" or "the grays" will people be up in arms "OMG YOU ARE TEH RACIST, YOU ONLY SEE THE COLOR OF TEH SKIN!"
grow up people, it needed an enemy, and the same it could have been from the depths of hell or from the mud that man was made by the bible.
IT'S A STORY PEOPLE, LET IT GO.
grow up people, it needed an enemy, and the same it could have been from the depths of hell or from the mud that man was made by the bible.
IT'S A STORY PEOPLE, LET IT GO.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
Eh. He modeled it after other older myths, (Greek myths for example reference a series of different ages, and an age that has dragons etc storming around and guys hurling thunderbolts and driving the sun around would at the very least seem a bit more exciting than modern mundanity.) and he centered it around England, which didn't have the most diverse population around the time he was basing the story.viciouskillersquirrel said:
Night_Trekker
Member
Aaron said:
wow :lol
TheHeretic
Banned
Aaron said:
And yet the Hobbits simplistic worldview and purity proved to be the only way to overcome evil.
I have read the LOR 5 (or maybe 6 times) and whether you like it or not, yes, it is racist.
There are also other major problems with the way the author sees color and race ("dark" people coming from "south" the only Sauron's allies among men), blood and nobility (kings healing people because they are "king", people should be king by the right of lineage even if they have not demonstrated -any- leadership quality whatsoever, etc..), women (don't even get me started there..), love (ditto), etc. I was always wondering where he gets this bullshit from and years later I learned that he was also very religious.
But he is also a great writer. I read LOR several times because the way "the black riders chasing hobbits (when they just left their home)" creeps me out every time I read that part or how I can feel the thirst and hunger of Frodo and Sam near the end. But man do I hate the boring parts. do I ever..
There are also other major problems with the way the author sees color and race ("dark" people coming from "south" the only Sauron's allies among men), blood and nobility (kings healing people because they are "king", people should be king by the right of lineage even if they have not demonstrated -any- leadership quality whatsoever, etc..), women (don't even get me started there..), love (ditto), etc. I was always wondering where he gets this bullshit from and years later I learned that he was also very religious.
But he is also a great writer. I read LOR several times because the way "the black riders chasing hobbits (when they just left their home)" creeps me out every time I read that part or how I can feel the thirst and hunger of Frodo and Sam near the end. But man do I hate the boring parts. do I ever..
Musashi Wins!
FLAWLESS VICTOLY!
Artadius said:
This whole premise could be shit or not, but if your backlog is supposedly keeping you from critical thinking skills perhaps you should...allow yourself more room?
Gadfly said:
I don't think that royalty and the divine right to rule are things that are too out of place. He is constructing a fictional medieval world.
Eowyn.
I will agree that I did not like how Arwen was treated as a prize in the books, and disappointingly after what happened in Fellowship, in the movies as well.
One does not read LOTR for the romantic aspects, although the tale of Beren and Luthien is full of all sorts of win.
Short answer: no.
Long answer: Yes, there IS racism in the LOTR, but if anything, it's a criticism of it. Look how every race in the mythology fucked up by hating each other and go for autarcy.
In the end, it's the union between races that eventually allows them to kick Sauron's ass.
Now yes, colored folks were on Sauron's side. That's more of a geographical thing than race IMO. If anything, it might be an allegory for good west vs evil east. I mean, Tolkien did serve in the army during WW2 (when he started to write the LotR).
Tolkien blatantly condemned nationalism, nazis and apartheid. Seeing racism in the LotR is stretching it a LOT.
Every so called 'superior race" eventually destroyed itself. Fanatic elves, numenoreans, dwarves from the Moria.
Have you read the Silmarillion?
As I said, the so called "superior human race" (which was half human half elvish btw) fucked up big time and fell for Sauron's manipulations.
Long answer: Yes, there IS racism in the LOTR, but if anything, it's a criticism of it. Look how every race in the mythology fucked up by hating each other and go for autarcy.
In the end, it's the union between races that eventually allows them to kick Sauron's ass.
Now yes, colored folks were on Sauron's side. That's more of a geographical thing than race IMO. If anything, it might be an allegory for good west vs evil east. I mean, Tolkien did serve in the army during WW2 (when he started to write the LotR).
Tolkien blatantly condemned nationalism, nazis and apartheid. Seeing racism in the LotR is stretching it a LOT.
Every so called 'superior race" eventually destroyed itself. Fanatic elves, numenoreans, dwarves from the Moria.
viciouskillersquirrel said:
Have you read the Silmarillion?
As I said, the so called "superior human race" (which was half human half elvish btw) fucked up big time and fell for Sauron's manipulations.
when you say quality, you're talking about its lack of right?xDangerboy said:
i read LotR about 3 times in my younger years... but as I've got older and my tastes matured i absolutely can't stand to read it anymore. it's just not very good.
as for the racist issue... i always got that impression, but I was never sure if I was seeing something that wasn't really there.
did we invent potatoes only recently?RedShift said:
VeritasVierge
Member
:lol This made me laugh until I choked on my tea. Thanks.Aaron said:
No. I mean, you could try to inject some racial themes into it if you wanted to, but even the notion that the forces of evil include those with darker complexions is kind of tied to the fact that "every else" other than the England analog is supposed to have already fallen to Sauron... and, as you may have noticed, white people aren't the norm over the globe.
It doesn't excuse it, mind you, but Tolkien's many other writings and public statements seem to clearly point to him -not- being a racist, and strongly rejecting all the "racial theories" that were so popular before WWII.
I somehow think Tolkien would regret this comment if he were around today. I know there is a lot of discussion back and forth about it, but it's worth pointing out that it isn't in The Lord of the Rings. Therefore, it's not part of the work, and thus from a strictly literal point of view, it doesn't matter. (See modern/post modern/"new rhetoric" folks).harSon said:
It doesn't excuse it, mind you, but Tolkien's many other writings and public statements seem to clearly point to him -not- being a racist, and strongly rejecting all the "racial theories" that were so popular before WWII.
Scrow, I know this is about tastes, and we all have different tastes, but I must ask ... why do you feel it is "not very good"?Scrow said:
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