LOST 06.17/18/18.5: "The End" (Everything Else Was Just Progress)

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Interfectum said:
Six Feet Under
The Wire
The Shield
... all had great endings and tied the series up pretty well.

Lost
BSG (to a degree)
Alf
... I'd put with shows that had bad endings.

That's not what I asked or what he posited. I was talking about a show that dropped no inconsistencies through its entire run (along the lines of Christian showing up off the island), not "A Show That Had A Great Finale". My point is that it's unrealistic to expect a six-season television show of 120whatever hours being written one at a time to never drop a ball like that.

For the record, I'd file Six Feet Under as one of the most inconsistent shows in television history actually.
 
Interfectum said:
Six Feet Under
The Wire
The Shield
The Sopranos
... all had great endings and tied the series up pretty well.

Lost
BSG (to a degree)
Alf
... I'd put with shows that had bad endings.
Out of those I'd say only Six Feet Under's finale is worth mentioning in the same company as Lost's.
 
Alucard said:
...except that they said that the X storyline was catering to fans and providing service to said fans. :lol

Of course they were going to try and bring back old characters and such, but to call the X stuff NOTHING but fanservice is a bit much.
 
Zeliard said:
I still really love the whole desaturated look during the time the island's cork was removed.

Gave it a great apocalyptic feel.
Yeah, really nice touch. Jack vs. Love with the overhead shots felt like a movie!
 
"hey Desmond, I know you could do this and survive easily, but I think i need to do this. I was MEANT TO DO THIS."

"wait, brothah.. oh, well okay. You're pretty persuasive."

"See you in another lifetime."

Gaf - OMG, OMG brilliant!

normal human being - but that doesn't make any sense...

GAF -SHUT UP.
 
Interfectum said:
Six Feet Under
The Wire
The Shield
The Sopranos
... all had great endings and tied the series up pretty well.

Lost
BSG (to a degree)
Alf
... I'd put with shows that had bad endings.
I love when hyperboles refute arguments for you.

Oh, and the Soprano's end was kind of a non-ending.
 
DrBo42 said:
So when Miles is forced to try and communicate with Juliet and she said "It worked." he's talking to the Juliet that's in the afterlife waiting room?

Miles doesn't talk to dead people, he just reads their final thoughts. Juliet saw the other side while she was dying, so given how they were trying to reset everything and make a world where the plane didn't crash, that's what she assumed it was. Her dying thought was, "It worked."
 
Alucard said:
...except that they said that the X storyline was catering to fans and providing service to said fans. :lol
When? If anything I got the idea it was the opposite. The point was that they could be watched by anyone without knowing anything about Lost, it was making it more approachable for the final season. From Hurley's episode, the focus shifted to getting the fans wet, but until that point it was anything but for the fans I think.
 
Random questions I haven't seen anyone ask yet:

What happened to Desmond on the island? Last we saw, Ben laid his head on a rock and said he's going to be fine. So does that just mean he was stuck on the island for the rest of his life not knowing how to get back to the X timeline he was sure was happiness? That kinda sucks.

How was Frank able to fly off the island? Don't you need the right compass bearing to leave it? Sure, he knew it from before the island moved, but I thought that meant the directions to leave it also changed (I might just be imagining that part though).
 
BenjaminBirdie said:
That's not what I asked or what he posited. I was talking about a show that dropped no inconsistencies through its entire run (along the lines of Christian showing up off the island).
The Wire.

faceless007 said:
Random questions I haven't seen anyone ask yet:

What happened to Desmond on the island? Last we saw, Ben laid his head on a rock and said he's going to be fine. So does that just mean he was stuck on the island for the rest of his life not knowing how to get back to the X timeline he was sure was happiness? That kinda sucks.
Up in the air, just like what happened to Ben and Hurley. They lived their lives, whether Des got off the island we'll never know.
 
ostrichKing said:
Yes, but they were doing that the whole time...I thought all of them had redemption on the island...what was the point of this poorly plotted construct universe?

Did they really? I mean, it's cool for you to redeem yourself through your acts in life as per the perception of others, but to truly stop feeling like you could've done more, that there was nothing left unsettled, I think that would take longer.
 
Byakuya769 said:
"hey Desmond, I know you could do this and survive easily, but I think i need to do this. I was MEANT TO DO THIS."

"wait, brothah.. oh, well okay. You're pretty persuasive."

"See you in another lifetime."

Gaf - OMG, OMG brilliant!

normal human being - but that doesn't make any sense...

GAF -SHUT UP.

I think he kind of wanted to die. His replacement has already been announced and being the custodian of the island is tiresome, even if it's just for a little while. Think of it as carrying The One Ring.
 
faceless007 said:
Random questions I haven't seen anyone ask yet:

What happened to Desmond on the island? Last we saw, Ben laid his head on a rock and said he's going to be fine. So does that just mean he was stuck on the island for the rest of his life not knowing how to get back to the X timeline he was sure was happiness? That kinda sucks.

How was Frank able to fly off the island? Don't you need the right compass bearing to leave it? Sure, he knew it from before the island moved, but I thought that meant the directions to leave it also changed (I might just be imagining that part though).
We assume Hurley and Ben would have helped Desmond get off the island and back home.

You couldn't leave the island normally because Jacob made it that way. Under Jack/Hurley, we could safely assume that the rules of how to enter/leave the island that we've previous known wouldn't really apply anymore.
 
Man, it feels so weird waking up this morning and knowing LOST is over.
 
An interesting observation on Lostpedia.
When Juliet tells Sawyer the secret to get the candy bar out of the vending machine, she says you can unplug it and plug it back in again and its technically legal. This is what Desmond and Jack do with the Heart of the Island.
 
Alucard said:
Yeah, not buying this. Writers shouldn't just make stuff up as they go along or put in weird things for the sake of weird things. If you're going to put in something strange, make sure you know the end result or how you're going to explain it later on. It's not impossible if you have intelligent people who take the time to carefully craft their creation.

Anyway, I still really love Lost, but I think your post is the very definition of "apologist." Nothing personal.
Exactly. It's clear that the writers didn't have a complete series arc in hand when they started, and we know that a lot of the filler they made up for seasons 2-5 they made up as they went along.

It's hard to imagine from watching season one that we would end up with Jacob vs MIB in a golden lit cave with a plug in it. What happened to Jacob's log cabin? Or hatches, or the Dharma Initiative, or the numbers? They completely dropped the sci fi aspect of the story and it ended up being nearly completely metaphorical/mystical (cork anyone?).
 
faceless007 said:
Random questions I haven't seen anyone ask yet:

What happened to Desmond on the island? Last we saw, Ben laid his head on a rock and said he's going to be fine. So does that just mean he was stuck on the island for the rest of his life not knowing how to get back to the X timeline he was sure was happiness? That kinda sucks.

How was Frank able to fly off the island? Don't you need the right compass bearing to leave it? Sure, he knew it from before the island moved, but I thought that meant the directions to leave it also changed (I might just be imagining that part though).

Desmond probably lived on the island with Ben and Hurley for a very long time, and died there. Once he died he went to hang out with the old gang.

Frank could leave the island because the plug was out for a while, and it took time to rebuild whatever protected the island would be my guess.

cory said:
An interesting observation on Lostpedia.
That's pretty damn cool.
 
faceless007 said:
Random questions I haven't seen anyone ask yet:

What happened to Desmond on the island? Last we saw, Ben laid his head on a rock and said he's going to be fine. So does that just mean he was stuck on the island for the rest of his life not knowing how to get back to the X timeline he was sure was happiness? That kinda sucks.

How was Frank able to fly off the island? Don't you need the right compass bearing to leave it? Sure, he knew it from before the island moved, but I thought that meant the directions to leave it also changed (I might just be imagining that part though).

1) He recovered and a month later he was on a boat away from there back with Penny and his kid.

2) It was Jakob's thing keeping people on the island. Hurley is far more forgiving with letting people come and go as they like.
 
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faceless007 said:
What happened to Desmond on the island? Last we saw, Ben laid his head on a rock and said he's going to be fine. So does that just mean he was stuck on the island for the rest of his life not knowing how to get back to the X timeline he was sure was happiness? That kinda sucks.

Ben said it was Jacob's rule that made it near impossible to leave the island. Hurley was free to do things however he wants.
 
Interfectum said:
No one said you had good taste.

There's never been a deusier ex machina than David's kidnapping. Or holy shit, the whole murder storyline.

Look, what I loved about SFU was that it was, at its best, a dramatization of the most simple aspects of life, no manufactured drama; just people and relationships. Life.

Then all that other shit started happening through seasons 3 and 4 and it got plain terrible. It restored balance in its final season, but it should have ended with the shot of Nate in the sideview.
 
John Harker said:
Here we actually disagree. Jughead didn't factually do anything in terms of the 'flash sideways narrative'. Jack was wrong, and even admitted it. The term "flash sideways" is itself the final red herring, they weren't flashing to anything... this was a reality created after death by those whose journey we saw in life. This was their journey after death.

As Locke said after he awakened: Jack had no son. None of these people were real. I know some people will be disappointed with this, but this was the ending for those "men of faith." LOST was a journey from birth to death and after for these characters, and all we saw this season was the culmination of that. There was no part of the sideways that even existed that wasn't part of these LOST characters lives. The island was sunk because they needed to move on from it - it even needed to EXIST because some of them were born on it (Charlotte, Miles, etc). Even Ben visited the Island, but we learned in the flash sideways they moved off it young.

The island needed to go away for everyone to continue to exist and reunite, so in this purgatory, it was removed. In that sense, the 'bomb worked' - but again, it was all a spiritual illusion. Until each person "awakened" - i.e., came to the realization and acceptance of their own mortal death, they are born, died, and renewed within this karma cycle. Some people are ready (Jack, Locke, everyone we saw in Church) some are not (Ben, Ana Lucia as told by Desmond, Hawkings, etc) and some never will (Michael, Whispers, etc). After these people in the Church go to their deserved afterlife, all that will not touch the remaining people still in this purgatory lives... ceases to be.
So who moves on and who doesnt? I cant see any real reason why the people in the church deserved to "move on" any more than Michael did. Kate was a killer as was Sawyer. Sayid tortured and killed many people. Michael killed one person to save his son.

We could argue that the characters in the church somehow redeemed themselves on the island but didnt Michael save Jin's life on the boat essentially. Didnt he technically save all of their lives by staying behind and delaying the explosion?

So how are their afterlives "deserved"? I guess that word is just bothering me because that implies some existence of "good" and "bad" but I dont think its about that. Im not really sure what it was about really. Still thinkin on it.
 
Korey said:
Exactly. It's clear that the writers didn't have a complete series arc in hand when they started

The pilot went from first draft to casting to principal photography in 2 weeks. Ive been as hard on them as anyone about making shit up, but come on, man. You cant compress the timeframe like that and expect a six season bible from day one.
 
faceless007 said:
Random questions I haven't seen anyone ask yet:

How was Frank able to fly off the island? Don't you need the right compass bearing to leave it? Sure, he knew it from before the island moved, but I thought that meant the directions to leave it also changed (I might just be imagining that part though).

Since Jacob is gone, so are his rules. I assume this means that one of his rules prevented people from leaving or finding the island.

Remember when Ben said to Hurley that he could run things differently?
 
Alucard said:
...except that they said that the X storyline was catering to fans and providing service to said fans. :lol
It was catering to fans. The mystery part was resolving itself to an inevitably bad conclusion.

The fan service was in giving them a universe where the old characters basically lived their lives the way we sort of remember them but with a little happier sheen, plus allowing us to put the pieces together the mystery of it.

The biggest problems I've had with the seasin have been on-Island. I for one am glad that the Smokey as Locke was not the only way we saw Locke this season.
 
Byakuya769 said:
"hey Desmond, I know you could do this and survive easily, but I think i need to do this. I was MEANT TO DO THIS."

"wait, brothah.. oh, well okay. You're pretty persuasive."

"See you in another lifetime."

Gaf - OMG, OMG brilliant!

normal human being - but that doesn't make any sense...

GAF -SHUT UP.
Jack took a knife to the gut, it's pretty evident that he was going to die no matter what. So why put Desmond in any more danger?

Makes perfect sense.
 
big ander said:
Really? Because dozens have posted the Lostpedia entry showing how few questions are left.

And this is the second time somebody has posted about plotholes with zero evidence. There aren't plotholes, at least no gaping ones.
What was the point of the button at the Swan station if the fail-safe would keep everyone from dying in an electromagnetic disaster? Why did the Light at the Heart of the Island manifest itself as electromagnetic energy in pockets all over the island? How did it cause time travel? Why did some people travel in time and others did not? Who finally attached the wheel to harness the power of the Heart of the Island (MiB never finished the job, as far as I could tell)? Why did the Others kidnap children? What was the point of the vaccines? Why did pregnant mothers die on the island? How does Mikhail not die? WTF is up with Christian Shepard's competing roles throughout the series? Why did the smoke monster kill some people and let others live?

All of the questions are pretty rhetorical towards the forum, but demonstrate the sort of thing I'm looking for when I cruise through the Lostpedia.
big ander said:
Charles WIDMORE WIDMORE WIDMORE (if you're a "nerd" who loves this character so much, you should know this) didn't turn out to be the person you wanted him to be? ...Okay?I liked it. Others did. Shouldn't ruin the show.
My distaste for character motivations fleshed out in two lines moments before they are killed shouldn't bother you in the least. I'm not uptight about other's preference towards the ending, but it doesn't alter my disappointment, either.
 
Solo said:
The pilot went from first draft to casting to principal photography in 2 weeks. Ive been as hard on them as anyone about making shit up, but come on, man. You cant compress the timeframe like that and expect a six season bible from day one.

The show was made as they go along until the second half of Season 3, that's when they decided the end.
 
.GqueB. said:
So who moves on and who doesnt? I cant see any real reason why the people in the church deserved to "move on" any more than Michael did. Kate was a killer as was Sawyer. Sayid tortured and killed many people. Michael killed one person to save his son.

We could argue that the characters in the church somehow redeemed themselves on the island but didnt Michael save Jin's life on the boat essentially. Didnt he technically save all of their lives by staying behind and delaying the explosion?

So how are their afterlives "deserved"? I guess that word is just bothering me because that implies some existence of "good" and "bad" but I dont think its about that. Im not really sure what it was about really. Still thinkin on it.

You could argue that whoever is in that room were the people who was so Lost in their lives that they only found meaning on the Island. Michael wound meaning in his son, not the island. Eko found meaning in religion and not the island. Etc, etc. Atleast that's one way to explain it.
 
My personal analysis if anyone cares:

The more I ponder the finale the more certain I am that they had it in mind from the beginning. The journey may have been made up as it went along, but the endgame was planned and foreshadowed for a long time. I keep going back to all the references to Narnia, the Wizard of Oz, and Alice in Wonderland. In all of those stories, the characters go to a far off and fantastical place and when they return there is always a sense of "Was that real? Did that actually happen?"

Dorothy and Alice both wake up from dreams giving the implication that their journeys were not so real. The kids in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe return to find that in our universe, little to no time has elapsed even though Narnia is clearly billed as a real existing place.

That same sense has pervaded Lost for some time, no more so than after the finale. However, in Lost, it was the more exotic and fantastical place that was real and the more mundane existence that was not (so much). I think that is a message from the writers saying even if these places aren't real, the experiences that the characters had were very real. The emotions that they felt were very real. Those experiences and emotions shaped who those characters were and how they approached life from then on.

And in that way, I think the Lost finale was a slight nod to the viewers who have shared the collective experiences of the castaways and felt the same emotions. So what if it wasn't "real?" That shouldn't take away from all of the great moments we experienced during the show (or might from other stories in the future).

I think the prominence of the mirrors also points to this sense of "what is real and what isn't?". Damon and Carlton talked about the sensation of dissociation you sometimes get when looking at the mirror--"Is that really me? Who am I?" Tied in with that is the other major theme from last night. When you get that feeling of dissociation and ponder who you are, it can be a very "lonely" thing in the sense that it's an entirely personal feeling (for me at least). So maybe, the best measure of who you are isn't found by looking in a mirror. Instead it can be found by looking at your friends and the relationships you formed.

Clearly, the finale was saying that "you" aren't a complete entity. Part of "you" is legion with the people around you and until you realize that, you're going to be living in the dark (or dying alone). Let go of what is keeping you apart from others and let them touch you and be part of your life.

I realize a lot of this was probably not explicitly intended to be interpreted as I have interpreted it. But that's the beauty of the ambiguity of Lost. It allows you to create meaning for yourself. And while I can see why some people might be frustrated and call that "lazy," I appreciate it.
 
Korey said:
Exactly. It's clear that the writers didn't have a complete series arc in hand when they started, and we know that a lot of the filler they made up for seasons 2-5 they made up as they went along.

It's hard to imagine from watching season one that we would end up with Jacob vs MIB in a golden lit cave with a plug in it. What happened to Jacob's log cabin? Or hatches, or the Dharma Initiative, or the numbers? They completely dropped the sci fi aspect of the story and it ended up being nearly completely metaphorical/mystical (cork anyone?).

Of course they didn't. They were living check to check like 90% of the series out there. It had to remain open ended until they were given permission to wrap it up.

EDIT: I do believe this was the ending they had in mind though give or a take a few characters. The Island stuff was a little more open ended but I think Jack was going to die.

On a side point, I'm still confused on the cabin issue. What was the muystery again on this since I thought it was asked and answered a long time ago?
 
VistraNorrez said:
There's been some good defenses for and against the finale and the show. But I truly think the show will be well thought of in the long run. Just the fact that it provoked such heated discussion proves it did something right.

Phantom Menace just got a 2 hour youtube review.

Not sure sparking discussion means something it did something right. It could also mean it did something very wrong.
 
JGS said:
On a side point, I'm still confused on the cabin issue. What was the muystery again on this since I thought it was asked and answered a long time ago?

We dont know who the fuck was in the cabin and when.
 
cory said:
An interesting observation on Lostpedia.

Similar to that, I noticed that Because You Left had a skipping record at the beginning, which is what Faraday later compares their time skips to. I think I was the last person to get that. :lol
 
BenjaminBirdie said:
There's never been a deusier ex machina than David's kidnapping. Or holy shit, the whole murder storyline.

Besides perhaps... an alternate reality introduced in the final season of a show that ends up being a bus station to heaven where everyone is waiting for the main cast to die so they can all go together?

Every show has it's problems, especially ones that are written on the fly... but Lost is like the swiss cheese of serial dramas. That being said I still enjoyed the show and even enjoyed seeing the characters go to heaven with gumdrop smiles. All I was hoping for was just a little more explanation of the events that happened over the 6 seasons. I knew, however, that was not going to happen around the time they introduced the temple in season 6.
 
kinoki said:
Noone wanted Paolo and Nikki. That's something they got completly wrong.

I loved the Expose episode, even if I didn't expect or want it. Please don't speak for me.

Alucard said:
Yeah, not buying this. Writers shouldn't just make stuff up as they go along or put in weird things for the sake of weird things. If you're going to put in something strange, make sure you know the end result or how you're going to explain it later on. It's not impossible if you have intelligent people who take the time to carefully craft their creation.

This is seriously impossible to do with television. Don't forget the Mr Eko situation. No writing can account for unforeseen consequences of telling a serialized story over 6 years.

Dickens worked exactly the same way. He literally had no idea where each serialized piece of his works was going. Sometimes he actually used public feedback to dictate where the stories would go. And Dickens is regarded as a Literary master.

Like Dickens, Darlton did have an idea of how the story would end and they delivered it.
 
JGS said:
Of course they didn't. They were living check to check like 90% of the series out there. It had to remain open ended until they were given permission to wrap it up.

On a side point, I'm still confused on the cabin issue. What was the muystery again on this since I thought it was asked and answered a long time ago?

It jumped around. There was an ash circle... various people were seen in it at various times. Some people could find it, others couldn't.

The cabin wasn't so much a mystery as it was pointless.
 
.GqueB. said:
So who moves on and who doesnt? I cant see any real reason why the people in the church deserved to "move on" any more than Michael did. Kate was a killer as was Sawyer. Sayid tortured and killed many people. Michael killed one person to save his son.

We could argue that the characters in the church somehow redeemed themselves on the island but didnt Michael save Jin's life on the boat essentially. Didnt he technically save all of their lives by staying behind and delaying the explosion?

So how are their afterlives "deserved"? I guess that word is just bothering me because that implies some existence of "good" and "bad" but I dont think its about that. Im not really sure what it was about really. Still thinkin on it.

Two people, Michael also killed Libby.

There are lots of reasons why this could be true, here are some:
his own guilt prevented him from moving on (He tells Hurley to tell Libby he's sorry), his concern at seeing Walt in the afterlife may hold him back (his son has not forgiven him, or he is still afraid to face him), he was trapped on the island because of Jacob's rules as Guardian, and now that Hurley takes over and can make his own rules, he doesn't forgive Michael so won't let him move on either, etc. It's open, but still kinda makes sense.
 
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