LOST 06.17/18/18.5: "The End" (Everything Else Was Just Progress)

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gdt5016 said:
You know, Kate's FS doesn't hold up post finale.

What, exactly, was she subconsciously working through?


Can we just write this in the "Kate episode suck" column?
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Drealmcc0y said:
yeah but she came back for claire, im not really gonna defend "what kate does" though. I hated that episode
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Holy shit she did that to atone for the fact that she "stole" Aaron from Claire and raised him.
The bag was Aaron!
It all makes sense now!

In hindsight the Kate FS is the most straightforward.
 
Isn't big ander from here? He got his question answered on Jay & Jack. Or rather, acknowledged, not really answered. Jorge confirms that the epilogue is "lighter" but there's also some more overarching island stuff.
 
dave is ok said:
You're kidding right?

All the X timeline Kate did was run away.
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Kate had extreme guilt that she left the Island without looking back for a long time. Shes guilty that she left Claire there and probably even more guilty once she sees the state Claire is in 3 years later. Nothing she did in her life made her forget that. She finally was able to let go when she delivered baby Aaron to Claire.
 
brandonh83 said:
The only problem I had with the flash sideways being an epilogue is when I didn't know that the flash sideways was the afterlife for the characters. What's so incredible about the storytelling is that they can't move on without Jack, and Jack can't move on without them. How they managed to tell the island story, to show us Jack's death at the approximate time Jack realizes he died in the flash sideways, is extremely powerful.

The only thing that kind of confuses me is Desmond. He knows about the flash sideways during the island events, but did he know that it was an afterlife? Did he know exactly what he was doing?
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Doesn't seem like it.

Seems he flashed to the afterlife and saw it, and misinterpreted it.
 
We haven't even talked about Desmond.


Desmond did like a super-soul-FlashForward into the goddamn afterlife.

Golfham.
 
brandonh83 said:
The only thing that kind of confuses me is Desmond. He knows about the flash sideways during the island events, but did he know that it was an afterlife? Did he know exactly what he was doing?
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Its been made clear that Desmond on the island, was on a fools errand
 
oatmeal said:
Doesn't seem like it.

Seems he flashed to the afterlife and saw it, and misinterpreted it.
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Desmond could have either been mind travelling or seeing flashes of the future (just as he was seeing flashes of Charlie dying) or even both. Its not clear if he actually knew it was the afterlife, but its possible he just experienced those moments out of context.
 
oatmeal said:
Seems he flashed to the afterlife and saw it, and misinterpreted it.
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See that's what I'm thinking too. He didn't really know what it was, he just knew that he had to make everyone meet up. Crazy stuff, can't wait for some commentary.
 
I love how they threw Penny and Desmond in the church at the end. Made no sense to me.

"The most important time of your life is the time you spent with these people"

Desmond hated his time on the island - and Penny didn't even know these people.
 
So do you think that Desmond's vision of Claire leaving was:

A: Implanted into his brainium by MIB - to kill Charlie.

Or...

B: What they intended to show (have her part of the Oceanic 6) but due to her schedule changing, and leaving the show for awhile, and just cut bait on that idea like the raft shooting.
 
[Flash-sideways timeline ... Sawyer comes home and watches Little House On The Prairie.]

LAURA: It's not me I'm worried about. I just don't know what I would do if anything ever happened to you or Ma.

CHARLES: Anyway, nothing's gonna happen to us. Not today, anyway. That's the way you live this life. Each day, one at a time. Now, if you spend your whole life worryin' about something that's gonna happen, before you know it, your life's over and you spent an awful lot of it just worryin'.

[Laughter is heard in the background on the show.]

CHARLES: Hey, you heard that? Now that's what life's all about. Laughin' and lovin' each other. And knowin' that people aren't really gone when they die. We have all the good memories to sustain us until we see 'em again.
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Well played, LOST. goddam.
 
dave is ok said:
I love how they threw Penny and Desmond in the church at the end. Made no sense to me.

"The most important time of your life is the time you spent with these people"

Desmond hated his time on the island - and Penny didn't even know these people.
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I don't think any of them had a love for the Island, save maybe Locke, Jack, Hurley, and Ben.

It wasn't about the Island (outside of the creation of this Purgatory, which The Island might or might not be apart of), more about the connections with each other. Penny was close to Desmond, who was close to alot of the Losties.
 
I don't know if they were creating what happened in the fs subconciously. The resolutions & desires that are being tossed around are certainly relevant but that may say more to their fates without the island in the picture and being given the chance to come full circle more than anything else.
 
gdt5016 said:
I don't think any of them had a love for the Island, save maybe Locke, Jack, Hurley, and Ben.

It wasn't about the Island (outside of the creation of this Purgatory, which The Island might or might not be apart of), more about the connections with each other. Penny was close to Desmond, who was close to alot of the Losties.
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Didnt Penny spend two weeks on the boat in season 4 with Jack, Kate, Sayid, Hurley, Sun and Aaron?
 
dave is ok said:
I love how they threw Penny and Desmond in the church at the end. Made no sense to me.

"The most important time of your life is the time you spent with these people"

Desmond hated his time on the island - and Penny didn't even know these people.
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This is your answer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGauAyUWUas

"...which brings you to the Island, where you spend the next 3 years of your life entering numbers into the computer, until you are forced to turn that fail-safe key. And if you don't do those things Desmond David Hume, every single one of us is dead."

"...its your path to go to the Island. You don't do it because you choose to Desmond. You do it because you're supposed to...

...you may not like your path Desmond, but pushing that button is the only truly great thing you will ever do."
 
It's so cool that they've left certain clues that make you pause and wonder.

For example, Christian's church is the same one as Elaine Widmore's, and it's located directly above the Lamp Post Dharma station, which is used to find the island.

They've left the possibility open that the flash sideways really is exactly what we many of us thought it was: an alternate universe, and it was gotten to and/or created by the island's electromagnetic properties (which are, importantly, the same properties that allow for the time travel - both physical and via consciousness).

The ending of the show reminded me of Being John Malkovich more than anything else, and instantly so. Spoilars coming up for that movie. At the end, it's shown that a group of people had figured out a way to basically live forever by "jumping" from human body to human body throughout time. For most of the movie, Malkovich was planned to be that next vessel, and some complications arose.

There are definitely issues with this interpretation when you consider it more, but Lost struck me in the same way in that a group of people (the Losties) had figured out a way to live forever and together by creating an idyllic alternate universe, even if subconsciously. Christian may or may not have been speaking literally when he said "you all created this place together."

Catalix said:
Well played, LOST. goddam.
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And Locke to Jack: "They didn't lose your father. They just lost his body."

Applies directly to both Christian and Locke himself.
 
Drealmcc0y said:
Didnt Penny spend two weeks on the boat in season 4 with Jack, Kate, Sayid, Hurley, Sun and Aaron?
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Yes.

But I can't imagine they got close, outside of "they're the friends of the man I love."
 
Desmond and Penny were in the church because Desmond ended up bonding with everyone, and Penny is with Desmond and she also bonded, at least, with the Oceanic Six at the end of season 4. It's not what they think about the actual island.
 
brandonh83 said:
Desmond and Penny were in the church because Desmond ended up bonding with everyone, and Penny is with Desmond and she also bonded, at least, with the Oceanic Six at the end of season 4. It's not what they think about the actual island.
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Exactly. Why are people missing this?
 
Desmond and Penny were athe church because Desmond and Penny were supposed to catch an earlier white light flight, but Des decided to hold up until he got the rest of the gang to come along.
 
infinityBCRT said:
This is your answer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGauAyUWUas

"...which brings you to the Island, where you spend the next 3 years of your life entering numbers into the computer, until you are forced to turn that fail-safe key. And if you don't do those things Desmond David Hume, every single one of us is dead."

"...its your path to go to the Island. You don't do it because you choose to Desmond. You do it because you're supposed to...

...you may not like your path Desmond, but pushing that button is the only truly great thing you will ever do."
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The whole moral of the story was that life is about the relationships you've made and not the work you do though.

And for a semi omniscient being. Eloise must have not known that Desmond would save the entire world again a few years later.
 
dave is ok said:
The most important two weeks of her life
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These people were instrumental in reuniting her with her soulmate.

Y'know, the man she devoted a good chunk of her life in searching for him. I'm sure the experience had an immeasurable impact on Penny.
 
dave is ok said:
The whole moral of the story was that life is about the relationships you've made and not the work you do though.

And for a semi omniscient being. Eloise must have not known that Desmond would save the entire world again a few years later.
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What Desmond did on the Island was the most important thing in his life. Thats why he was with them. And Desmond was instrumental in saving Charlie's life twice as well as opening communications with the outside world which ultimately resulted in Ji Yeon and Aaron being safe.

If Penny wasn't looking for Desmond, the Oceanic 6 along with Lapidus and Desmond may have died stranded in the ocean. That was the most important thing she did.

edit: as for Eloise, after she sent Daniel off she said she didn't have anymore answers. Everything she knew was likely what Daniel had written in his notebook and perhaps what the Losties told her
 
infinityBCRT said:
What Desmond did on the Island was the most important thing in his life. Thats why he was with them. And Desmond was instrumental in saving Charlie's life twice as well as opening communications with the outside world which ultimately resulted in Ji Yeon and Aaron being safe.
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Along with about ten billion other reasons.

You know, it's one of those things like... okay, for example, waiting outside in the cold for a really long time for something, like a videogame system or movie/concert tickets or whatever. Torturous experience. But after it's over? Usually, you laugh about it and you don't regret it at all, and it ended up being a memorable experience that you're glad happened, in the long run.

The island event is sort of like this. It was a long, harrowing, emotionally and physically draining experience for everyone there, but it was the most important thing in their entire life. Desmond had to sit down in a hatch (lol) and press a button every 108 minutes for 3 years. But if he didn't do this, would he have been able to help reunite everyone together in the afterlife? Would he have been given the most incredible and unforgettable moment in his entire life, i.e. realizing that Penny is on the boat? No.
 
Catalix said:
These people were instrumental in reuniting her with her soulmate.

Y'know, the man she devoted a good chunk of her life in searching for him. I'm sure the experience had an immeasurable impact on Penny.
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All of them except for the man MOST responsible for getting Desmond off of the island, Lapidus. :lol

EDIT: You don't have to try and defend the church scene to me. It survives no amount of scrutiny whatsoever, because they put whoever they felt the viewers would want to see in that scene. Penny wouldn't want to spend eternity with these people she barely knows, but that's ok - they wanted to couple the cast up for thematic purposes. Just like retconning Shannon into being the love of Sayid's life.
 
dave is ok said:
All of them except for the man MOST responsible for getting Desmond off of the island, Lapidus. :lol

EDIT: You don't have to try and defend the church scene to me. It survives no amount of scrutiny whatsoever, because they put whoever they felt the viewers would want to see in that scene. Penny wouldn't want to spend eternity with these people she barely knows, but that's ok - they wanted to couple the cast up for thematic purposes. Just like retconning Shannon into being the love of Sayid's life.
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Its definitely not perfect, you could make the argument that everyone in the whole world should have been in the church because honestly you could link everyone to everyone, but whatever, nothing ends tied up perfectly in a nice little bow tie in life. The most important thing Daniel did in his life was either saving Desmond's life or going off to work in Dharma, and writing everything he learned into a notebook that Eloise eventually got possession of. Ben wasn't perfect but the most important thing he did was probably be Hurley's #2. But Eloise wasn't ready for Daniel to let go, Ben didn't want to let go because he needed to atone for his sins. You can make a million reasons as to why some people were there and others weren't. At the end of the day I don't think its a big deal because it seems like everyone has free choice as to when they are ready to let go.

And yeah, Eko probably should have been there. As I said before, there was an ABC picture released which had Christian giving a speech from the front of the church before he walked into the light and that was cut in the finale. I wouldn't be surprised if that originally was written for Eko.

Also I'm not sure if the Shannon-Sayid thing is the subject of a retcon. I think its just something they didn't spell out enough. They clearly could have had Nadiya in the church if they wanted to because she came back often to do the show. I think the issue may have been that he felt guily about his love for Nadiya-- the bad things he did in her name. He didn't feel worthy of her, and maybe ultimately he wasn't. He ended up killing many people in her name for Ben, and then killed Dogen (which resulted in the death of many more) also in her name.
 
I was totally expecting Christan to say 'You lived alone, so now you can die together' at the end - and show gets bonus points for not having him say it.
 
dave is ok said:
EDIT: You don't have to try and defend the church scene to me. It survives no amount of scrutiny whatsoever, because they put whoever they felt the viewers would want to see in that scene. Penny wouldn't want to spend eternity with these people she barely knows, but that's ok - they wanted to couple the cast up for thematic purposes. Just like retconning Shannon into being the love of Sayid's life.
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What's to say she all the Losties didn't move into apartments across the hall, like in Friends?
 
dave is ok said:
I was totally expecting Christan to say 'You lived alone, so now you can die together' at the end - and show gets bonus points for not having him say it.
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As the white light absorbs Jack, he has an epiphany and stands up on the pew and shouts while dancing around "Oh SHIT , we dying together! YES YES YES I'M GOD DAMN GENIUS" and then Rose stabs him from behind, MiB Mother style, and says "Thanks God that's over with". White light fully absorbs them, end scene.
 
dave is ok said:
I was totally expecting Christan to say 'You lived alone, so now you can die together' at the end - and show gets bonus points for not having him say it.
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I think the more "artistic" ending would have been to have that conversation with jack and Christian end with Christian asking "why are you here?" and then having Jack tear up and hug Christian without saying "i'm dead" and leave it at that, but then EVERYONE would be confused about the ending... people don't want to think for themselves
 
zander106 said:
...from wounds inflicted in the fight with Fake Locke. Honestly, the way that they show the cork being plugged back in, there does not appear to be any special test of endurance/strength/what have you for whoever does it, so it did not even in theory have to be Jack.



I guessed I also missed the part in Ab Aeterno where Jacob says that the island protects the world from pure evil. With the strong implication that pure evil is the Smoke Monster. The origin story provides the initial motivations for Man in Black, but it doesn't mean he isn't pure evil once he becomes Smoke Monster (or Smoke Monster becomes him, whichever it is).

And by the way, I actually really enjoyed this show. I just think the finale didn't work.
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Google radiation poisoning ( or effects of excessive EM energy exposure )
 
KevinCow said:
I still wish Lapidus had flown the sunken sub home.
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Was the sub captain the dead body in The End? Talk about totally unrealistic - Lapdisu was konkced down by a steel door = alive, sub captain who was completely find = dead.:lol :lol
 
KevinCow said:
I still wish Lapidus had flown the sunken sub home.
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SAWYER [radio]: We're headin' to the plane, Chesty-- wait on us--
LAPIDUS: We're not taking the plane, James. We're taking the sub.

DUN DUN DUNNNNNN
 
Who specifically was in the church doesn't really mean all that much. Desmond made a point to say that Farraday wasn't "going with him" and that Ana Lucia "isn't ready yet." There will be more of the Losties leaving, but we just saw the first group, if you will. There's no reason to get hung up on who and who wasn't in the church.
 
brandonh83 said:
SAWYER [radio]: We're headin' to the plane, Chesty-- wait on us--
LAPIDUS: We're not taking the plane, James. We're taking the boat.

Cut to Lapidus on the same boat as Sawyer, piloting the boat.

DUN DUN DUNNNNNN
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fixt
 
dave is ok said:
The whole moral of the story was that life is about the relationships you've made and not the work you do though.

And for a semi omniscient being. Eloise must have not known that Desmond would save the entire world again a few years later.
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She didn't. She even says as much in S5 that she doesn't know what the future holds for Desmond.

Likely due to her knowledge of future events coming from Faraday's journal, and Faraday not seeing anything happen past 2004.
 
Eloise that we see in Flashes Before Your Eyes isn't totally reconcilled with the one we see in The Variable, who explains the notebook.

How did she know about the guy who died in the construction accident? I can't image that was in the notebook... She was also clairvoyant, which doesn't jive with the notebook.


So yeah, Eloise in FBYE is a plothole.
 
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