LOST 06.17/18/18.5: "The End" (Everything Else Was Just Progress)
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Drealmcc0y said:
Makes absolutely no sense either.
That's where you don't understand my point. I'm very fine with fiction as long as it is logical (with itself, not with real life standards). Coherent.
Which Lost doesn't feel like, for me. It's like they wanted to throw in as much intriguing, cool sounding stuff they could think of (magic! advanced science! ancient civilizations! time travel! Thank god they didn't throw aliens in), with absolutely no will (or capacity) to explain in a logical way, so they quickly brushed it away and turned the last season into a character drama fest.
Drealmcc0y
Banned
Solo said:
Mother knew more than Locke on the subject.
Fact solo, fact....
Drealmcc0y
Banned
Raist said:
who are you to decide what is logical in fiction, its all made up.
InaudibleWhispa
Member
Makes about as much sense as a TV show should. Radiation causes the white blood count to drop (fact), which is the exact reason Juliet says the immune system is attacking the babies.Raist said:
Drealmcc0y
Banned
Solo said:
Because she the fucking protector, who knows whats up. With probably 100+ years of wisdom and knowledge of the island.
This is the like that scene between the others and Jack.
Mother: How long you been on this island John?
Locke: 113 days
Mother: ooooooh thats almost 4 whole months
Raist said:
Basically a working version of this.
The spike in EM activity caused by the Incident lowers white cell count. Consequently, the mother's immune system treats the fetus as a foreign body and attacks it, killing both mother and child. Juliet said this occurs around the second trimester, which is why Sun (who left the island long before that) and Rousseau and Claire (who were both in their third trimester) did not die.
Agelessness being an extreme extension of healing. If the island's EM can repair damaged tissue, then immortality there is basically just having your body constantly replenished and repaired.
Island's EM moves objects/people through time *and* space. When the wheel is turned, it unleashes a burst of that energy, which warps the island to a different location and time, and warps the one who turned the wheel to a different location (i.e. on the opposite side of the world) and time.
It's pretty clear that in the end, Lindelof and Cuse were telling the story they wanted to tell. And in their minds, that story was a character-based story. Detractors can say all they want about how at the last minute, the powers decided it would be character-based so they wouldn't have to explain the mysteries of the island, but all we have to go on is the overall arc of the story. And that arc is clearly a character-based one.
Where has the show been consistent in its six seasons? The characters. I think that Darlton put most of their effort into the characters and the character stories, and didn't worry too much if the mythology didn't completely fit. They saw the mythology as the background material.
So naturally if you were watching the show for the mythology, the finale disappointed you. If you viewed the mythology as merely spice (tantalizing and wonderful though it could be), you were much more forgiving. As someone whose favorite moments and arcs in the six seasons were character based, I loved it.
Where has the show been consistent in its six seasons? The characters. I think that Darlton put most of their effort into the characters and the character stories, and didn't worry too much if the mythology didn't completely fit. They saw the mythology as the background material.
So naturally if you were watching the show for the mythology, the finale disappointed you. If you viewed the mythology as merely spice (tantalizing and wonderful though it could be), you were much more forgiving. As someone whose favorite moments and arcs in the six seasons were character based, I loved it.
Drealmcc0y
Banned
threenote said:
His character arc is definitely the best
InaudibleWhispa said:
The immune system is already depressed during pregnancy. Yes, immune cells are very sensitive to radiations. Further inhibiting something that is already depressed does not turn it into a hyper-reactive thing
In general, I hate it when TV shows try to use scientific explanation, because they clearly have no clue of how it works.Anyways, that was just a specific point in the list of things that were apparently all explained by one thing, which felt like an easy cop out for me.
I would have been fine with the island being the origin of life, or power (hence the civilizations stuff) and some evil deity (Smokey) wanted that power. EM would be part of the system in place to prevent that evil entity to reach the light, the other important part being a guardian with mystical powers. Something like that. For me it would have worked better for the coherence of the story, they could have kept all the backstory and drama on the characters, and the heavy focus on mysteries would have been justified.
That's really my main gripe with the show. Feels like they shoved all that stuff in to get people hooked, but in the end it was completely irrelevant to the "real" story. Was kind of a soap just disguised as a sci-fi series.
Great post brotha. What you are saying really became clear to me after hearing Darlton talk about season 5, how they knew going in to it that time travel will bring up so many challenges, but still they really wanted to tell the story of the characters moving through time, especially the dharma related part.Mifune said:
Raist said:The immune system is already depressed during pregnancy. Yes, immune cells are very sensitive to radiations. Further inhibiting something that is already depressed does not turn it into a hyper-reactive thing
But you have no clue how it works. And what possible scientific explanation could there be for 60-odd survivors of a plane breaking apart in mid-air (you know, the basis for the show)? Or a smoke monster.
(Yes, I realize it is pointless in debating with this guy, but I'm bored.)
Drealmcc0y
Banned
Raist said:
Dude go back and watch season 1-3, most of the episodes have nothing to do with any sorts of sci fi, its all about the characters interacting with each other
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
Drealmcc0y said:
Go back and watch seasons 4-6, most of the episodes have tons to do with all sorts of sci fi
InaudibleWhispa
Member
The mysteries are what made the show compelling (as well as fantastic characters), but I don't understand why that means that they're irrelevant because they were either not answered or the answer doesn't satisfy you. At the end of the day, the awesome mysteries still exist, and they compelled me because they were awesome, not because I thought they'd have some awesome explanation at the end of the day.Raist said:
The show has always been 'A group of people end up on a bizarre island', not 'A bizarre island has some visitors'. I don't understand the mentality that because some of the answers are missing or didn't please you, the entire mystery becomes irrelevant and that part of the characters journey is worthless and narrows down to that characters melodrama. It doesn't, the mystery is still there, it was still part of the islands story and the characters story and it's still awesome.
brandonh83
Banned
Lafiel said:
No.
brandonh83
Banned
bogg said:
Why does everyone else find it so easy?
thekad said:
I have no clue of how what works?
Sigh. As I said multiple times, I'm fine with fiction. Time travel, ok, why not! Supernatural powers? Sure!
Using a very scientific explanation to a mysterious phenomenon is fine, as long as it is correct. They wanted to use "real life" science as an answer, it's fine, except that their supposedly scientific answer given by a medical doctor makes absolutely no sense.
Raist said:
Then just accept the island and its abilities as supernatural, and all the electromagnetism and similar explanations were just scientists trying to label something beyond their knowledge.
It doesn't really matter, either way, whether you choose to take the supernatural side or the pseudo-scientific explanations. In fact, that's all part of the show. =P
'cept that:Mifune said:
1 - they had three seasons to plan their story. Easily could have satisfied both mythology and characters.
2 - they didn't satisfy the characters, either. Everyone but Jack had no sense of character arc by the end of it. They were simply reacting to plot happening rather than being the driving forces of the narrative. Simply focussing on the characters doesn't mean they were telling a character-based story.
brandonh83
Banned
bogg said:
:lol
Really, the way I've allowed Lost to rest with me is the same way I let any abstract storytelling rest with me. If I had to know exactly what's going on in a story, I don't think I would be a fan of anything I am a fan of. I'm fine with stories that tie up most loose ends and explain its biggest mysteries [Harry Potter comes to mind] but my favorite stories are those that are totally ambiguous. When I first started watching Lost, at first, I did stick with it because I was intrigued by the mystery, and most importantly, what the island was and why it was so special. Over time, though, the characters really grew on me to the point where I started becoming more interested in what they were all about and where they were headed.
I still kept some of my questions present throughout the series and most of them were answered in a satisfying way. Like Damon and Carlton have stated though, and even wrote a self-aware line of dialogue about, every answer leads to another question. If they had a scene where Mother said, for example, "this power is what controls the afterlife. That's why it must be protected. If it's not protected, and someone mishandles its power, then when something dies, it will be lost forever." Or something, whatever. The next question would be, okay, where did the power come from? What's it made out of? Who put it there? Why this island? What's it called? How does it function exactly?
No one would ever be satisfied. They could have devoted three episodes to explain it in a Faradian way like we got with the time travel, but even with the time travel, its still sketchy because there are virtually an infinite number of bases to cover before there aren't any more questions about it, and trying to explain something like that is just simply beyond any writer. They chose something that is by all means unexplainable and there's nothing wrong with that. If they chose something easier and explained it, people wouldn't have been satisfied then either because there would have been a ton of "that's IT?" reactions. When you tell a huge story that takes a long time to finish, and you have an audience eager to learn stuff about it, you can either take the risk of explaining it and it not living up to expectations, you run the risk of it coming across too convoluted, or you run the risk of not giving enough explanation. It's just really risky stuff no matter the direction they chose.
I'm a fan of Silent Hill because at the end of most of the games, I have a general idea of what's going on and what the story means, but I have no way to really specifically put it all together. I can arrive at my own conclusions and see the overall story in my own head but it may look completely different to someone else. I don't think that has anything to do with the quality of the storytelling though because it's intentional. Damon and Carlton said that after the finale airs, they're not going to talk about it because they want people to arrive at their own conclusions and this tells me that it was their intention all along to not explain everything in absolute detail and they constantly avoid answering questions like that in interviews because they feel that if they give more information than what the show does, they run the risk of people not being given the freedom to see the picture in the way they desire. I say fair enough.
rohlfinator
Member
I think the main thing that bugs me about the electromagnetism/glowy cave "answer" is that most of what we have to go on was from speeches by a couple of characters. And as someone who's watched six seasons of Lost, I've been pretty much trained to assume that anyone in a position of authority on the show is lying their ass off, or at the very least withholding some important information. So when psychopathic, innocent-killing Juno's mom tells us that this place is critical to the world's existence, I'm inclined to believe there's something more to it. The writers apparently felt that "Across the Sea" sufficiently answered that kind of question, but they failed to stick with their own rule of "show rather than tell", and I think that hurt the credibility of a lot of those explanations.
I'm in the same boat as you with regards to the finale -- it was a great conclusion to the character arcs, and it made for one of the (if not the) most exciting episodes of the show. But, there was plenty of time this season to wrap up a few more mysteries and still address the character stuff at the end.
Then they shouldn't have introduced so much mythology that they weren't prepared to address. The character interaction was strong enough that the show didn't need all these mysteries to keep people interested. Hell, most of the mysteries that people want answered don't really interest me in the least, but the fact that they introduced them without wrapping them up hurts my enjoyment of the show a little bit.Mifune said:
I'm in the same boat as you with regards to the finale -- it was a great conclusion to the character arcs, and it made for one of the (if not the) most exciting episodes of the show. But, there was plenty of time this season to wrap up a few more mysteries and still address the character stuff at the end.
InaudibleWhispa
Member
Popular Mechanics and Dr. Michael Cackovic, an instructor in the department of Maternal-Fetal Medicine at Yale University have no problem with it.Raist said:
Also, you must hate 90% of science fiction, since most of it features some sort of pseudo-science -- a "very scientific explanation to a mysterious phenomenon" with no real plausibility or supporting evidence.
InaudibleWhispa said:
Which is exactly what I've said. Immune depression due to pregnancy + radiations = bad. For the mother. That absolutely does not justify the fact that Juliet explained that healthy pregnancies were not possible because the mother's immune system would turn against the foetus.
And apparently radiations weren't that bad since people were generally healthier, not the other way around.
You guys keep arguing about one specific point when I said that my major issue with the show was that they focused on sci-fi/supernatural/mysterious stuff for a while and that apparently didn't matter at all anymore during season 6. Which is apparently the common opinion here since people go as far as saying that half of the show was never about that stuff (while it was hinted during season 1 and took of during season 2 with the hatch amd all the DI related stuff) and about characters all along. Whatever.
I just finished watching the finale, and skimmed the last couple of pages.
I didn't expect them to tie everything up with a bow, but I wanted more than I got. I've been quite cynical for a couple of seasons now, and have said on more than one occasion there was no way they could answer everything to my satisfaction. Bit hard for them to be successful in that respect when I've held onto that preconceived view for a couple of years.
That being said, even with what was delivered, I ended up more disappointed than expected. Even though there was an "answer", I wanted something more tangible and less mystical. Again, I think I set myself up there.
I enjoyed large parts of the show, but for me nothing was compelling as the first season and parts of season 2. Season 3 onwards just dragged a little for me, and I didn't have the same sense of anticipation from episode to episode. While the character side of things would have suffered given their ultimate approach, I personally think it was a huge mistake for them to extend the series from 4 seasons to 6 at the end of the first. I think 4 seasons would allowed for the same meat, without the deadends and filler.
Lost was groundbreaking TV with some great ideas. But ultimately it didn't suit my personal tastes the way I expected it to after the first couple of episodes.
I didn't expect them to tie everything up with a bow, but I wanted more than I got. I've been quite cynical for a couple of seasons now, and have said on more than one occasion there was no way they could answer everything to my satisfaction. Bit hard for them to be successful in that respect when I've held onto that preconceived view for a couple of years.
That being said, even with what was delivered, I ended up more disappointed than expected. Even though there was an "answer", I wanted something more tangible and less mystical. Again, I think I set myself up there.
I enjoyed large parts of the show, but for me nothing was compelling as the first season and parts of season 2. Season 3 onwards just dragged a little for me, and I didn't have the same sense of anticipation from episode to episode. While the character side of things would have suffered given their ultimate approach, I personally think it was a huge mistake for them to extend the series from 4 seasons to 6 at the end of the first. I think 4 seasons would allowed for the same meat, without the deadends and filler.
Lost was groundbreaking TV with some great ideas. But ultimately it didn't suit my personal tastes the way I expected it to after the first couple of episodes.
InaudibleWhispa
Member
Popular Mechanics and that guy have no problem with the logic. Women on the island having a low white count would = dead baby. Their only problem with it is that the mother wouldn't die as a consequence, but than can be explained by infections and such. That is the only stretch, that all 9 pregnancy attempts resulted in infection of the mother, but it's certainly good enough an answer to satisfy me.Raist said:
I love the fact that the source of the island's energy, the heart of the island, was never "technically" explained. One of the biggest themes in lost is faith. For some, like Jack at first and MiB, it's just an island. For others, like Lock, it was a place where miracles happen, and it most be protected at all cost. Plus, the fact that we never really know more about the island than the characters we see on the screen, made me at least, feel more connected with what these characters are going through.brandonh83 said:
brandonh83
Banned
Dead said:
Pretty much. I think it's a discreet mixture of fantasy and sci-fi.
GDJustin said:
First off, anyone who calls you a hater is ridiculous - your criticisms are well-stated, cogent, and rational (as usual).
My one issue with this point, and some of your other analysis, is that I think there's a difference between using mystery and being a mystery. Earlier, you judged this balance by looking at commercial act-breaks, arguing that ending an act (or an episode, or a season) on pure mystery indicates that the show is predicating itself on mystery.
In some instances, I think you're spot on: the final scene of the first season is by far the worst example of this, presenting the hatch without any hint at what they were actually about to do with it. However, in the end, the hatch ended up creating some of the series' most compelling character actions/reactions, and the way the pure mystery became the stunning opening to the second season indicates that there are ways in which that mystery can pay off in terms of the characters. It didn't remain a mystery forever, which is why using mystery is not the same as being a mystery: if all of the characters has suddenly banded together in order to solve the mystery of the four-toed statue, then I'd be on the same page, but the fact that it remained on the periphery is the show simply building suspense like any other show on television.
You're right that the show never found the perfect balance, but I think this is something they accepted as part of the complex relationship between author and audience. The interesting thing about Lost is that as the mysteries became more important to a subsection of fans as the series came to its conclusion, the mysteries became less important within the show itself. If you look at the first season, the characters were defined by their mysteries: they worried about the black smoke, they fought against the Others, and they worked to try to escape this chaos. By the time the fifth season came along, meanwhile, the groups were divided: Sawyer and Juliet were living happily in the 70s, perfectly willing to ignore the island's "mysteries" and live out their lives. Suddenly, some of the characters weren't as interested in mysteries as others, an extension of the Faith/Science debate that took place in early seasons. And those who were trying to solve mysteries like Jack were doing so to find their own purpose, not the purpose of the island, just as Kate returned to find Claire as opposed to figuring out why the Polar Bear* was there.
*Just on that note: my single favourite "answer" in the entire series was the polar bear that Charlotte finds in Tunisia coming full circle when Ben turned the wheel. The show doesn't show the polar bears being used as a way to "move" the island (able to live in the cold conditions beneath the Orchid), but it's all there for us to figure out.
The Freighter folks are a fine example of this: they all came to the island to solve its mysteries, perfectly suited to figure things out, and yet all of them get caught up in the story and never really get to solve the mysteries they came to solve. Perhaps there is your turning point: the show creates characters who could answer our questions and all they do is start asking questions of their own as they get caught up in the drama of it all. At around that point in the series, after "Through the Looking Glass," the show made a pretty definitive statement in its storylines that mysteries no longer governed character action the way they did earlier in the series - of course, at the same time, the unsolved mysteries were festering for those viewers who simply weren't on the same page.
And as you say, the show never stopped "using" mystery in order to get from episode to episode, or to build suspense in the sixth season in regards to the true function of the flash sideways, so it's not that these people are crazy. Rather, it's just that they kept seeing the forest for the giant monster moving through it rather than the trees, something that I think Lindelof and Cuse were well-aware of and chose to ignore. I respect their right to do so, and while I think it created a more flawed series as a whole I don't think it tarnishes their purpose nor their accomplishments in pulling off something this ambitious on network television.
Trevelyon said:
Ask and you shall receive: I took part in two podcasts on Thursday that fit your bill to some degree.
The first seems perfect: TV critics and scholars discussing the finale and the series' legacy as a whole. No one really disliked the finale, but there's some discussion of its flaws, and some great observations by a whole bunch of intelligent people.
TV on the Internet, Episode 37: Lost [Media Elites]
The second is a bit more confrontational, which would perhaps be better for those who didn't like the finale and wanted that viewpoint expressed and analyzed in detail. There's representation from both sides (I guess I'd be on the Lost Defence Force, in this instance), and I thought we got to flesh out some of the more base concerns with the finale in a productive fashion.
The /Filmcast Bonus Ep. Lost Series Finale and Wrap-up [/Film]
NinjaCodah
Member
LOST became a show uniquely about characters when that became the most convenient way to answer criticism.
InaudibleWhispa said:
Dude, they don't talk about the baby at all in your quote. What Juliet said regarding the immune system rejecting the foetus was messed up.
Blader5489 said:Okay, first of all, your major gripe seems to change with each new post.
Raist said:
Raist said:
Raist said:
:I
Can't be bothered to find more.
Anyways, as I said I'm not completely shitting on the show as a whole, I really enjoyed it a lot during the 5 first seasons, but the final one was extremely disappointing to me. I didn't want them to pull a Dark Tower, and in a way they completely did. Guess being a scientist doesn't help me on that issue.
InaudibleWhispa
Member
Dead said:
I still see it as a mixture of both, really. Dr. Michio Kaku, physicist and writer of "Physics of the Impossible" see's Lost's time-travel "ingredients" as being sound, and that the writers "did their homework". In principle, if you could harness, say, the energy of a star, you might be able to bend time into a pretzel, but we are talking about astronomical amounts of energy.. However, It would take a very advanced civilization to really do this, Kaku says. Lost has the right Scientific ingredients and outcome (time travel), but... it's still an ancient wooden wheel, so whatever is taking advantage of this energy is almost undoubtedly of supernatural origin.
Raist said:
Dr. Michael Cackovic said:
Juliet Burke said:
Dr. Michael Cackovic said:
He then goes on to explain how the mother could die from infection. This is a silly argument, however. Even if this logic is flawed, it is appropriate for virtually any TV show in existence. Medical dramas make bigger leaps than this. If that's the kind of thing you're going to nitpick when it comes to answers, I can understand why you'd be disappointed. But that's going to a ridiculous level in my opinion.Dr. Michael Cackovic said:
InaudibleWhispa
Member
Whoops, double post.
InaudibleWhispa said:
This guy doesn't mention at all how the immune system would turn against the foetus.
What Juliet says makes no sense because as this guy says, during pregnancy the immune system is depressed (that's what "kept in check" means) to prevent it to react against the foetus, which is in a way a foreign body. In other words, it is weakened.
If you weaken it further, killing white blood cells with radiation, then there's absolutely no reason why the result would be the opposite - a stronger immune system that rejects the foetus.
I'm not saying the show sucks because of that single point. I was just citing this as an inconsistency among many other problems I had with their "EM explains everything" answer. I wasn't the one to single this out and argue over that very specific point in the first place...
SpeedingUptoStop
will totally Facebook friend you! *giggle* *LOL*
I forgot, but The End is re-airing right now on ABC.
InaudibleWhispa
Member
Raist said:
Well you seem to know more about the subject than me. I was literally going off what I read from that article in which the guy didn't say "this shouldn't happen, this is wrong!" and in fact humoured the idea of the immune system turning on the fetus (even if, as you pointed out, he doesn't say how or why it would do that). But still, as I conceded earlier -- even if this logic is flawed, it really shouldn't bother you. It's the same TV logic you see on virtually every show, and it's more than enough to satisfy the average viewer. I, of course, don't think you hate the show because of this one question -- I'm sure it is one of many -- I just think the flaws you're finding are really inconsequential. At least to me -- if they bug you, that's fine, but I think TV and Film would drive me mad.
Freedom = $1.05
Banned
It would be neat if they worked into the blu rays the ticker they've been using this season. It won't happen, sure, but it's nice to want things.
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