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[Erigu]

I could easily answer every single question you posed except the hawking/red shoes part, but why bother?

Are you sure you're not a writer on the show? You sound a lot like them.

 

[brandonh83]

I cant think of a good reason to type all that shit out.

Erigu would. weakling.

 

[Erigu]

Erigu would. weakling.

 

[Fry]

Erigu, what is exactly that you dislike about the show? All the mysteries and it's explanations?

That I understand, but I can't see anyone who wouldn't like the first seasons, the characters, soundtrack, etc.

 

[Erigu]

Erigu, what is exactly that you dislike about the show?

The writing. So that includes the characters and their arcs as well, actually (last time I talked about that).

 

[Shorty]

The others are hostile because the island isn't supposed to be found by anyone. They are following Jacobs orders and Jacob wants to protect it.

New unknown people on island = DANGER! MUST PROTECT ISLAND AND BE HOSTILE N STUFF

 

[Erigu]

The season 5 finale seems to hint at Jacob being the one who invites people to the island (Mother also claimed she was the one who brought that game of senet to the island for Barry).
Why would the Others be hostile to Jacob's guests? Wasn't the point of hiring Richard to help the newcomers? Isn't Richard supposed to be on speaking terms with Jacob? What the fuck has he been doing during the past century for the Others to now be this bunch of assholes ("hey, let's go troll the newcomers with our fake beards, yuck yuck!")?
And why did Jacob wait three years before giving a list of his candidates to a few people (all of them off-island, 'cause Jacob never takes the easy way)? As we've seen, the Others would have been a bit more welcoming ("we'll still act like assholes for no good reason, but you can eat with us").

 

[Deleted member 12837]

The others are hostile because the island isn't supposed to be found by anyone. They are following Jacobs orders and Jacob wants to protect it.

New unknown people on island = DANGER! MUST PROTECT ISLAND AND BE HOSTILE N STUFF

Or Ben is just a dangerous, power-hungry megalomaniac who is threatened by any potential disruption of the life he's set up for himself as leader of the Others, so he responded to the Losties arrival as such.

 

[Erigu]

But there again, what the fuck was Richard doing? Not just when Ben was leader, but even with Widmore?

 

[Deleted member 12837]

But there again, what the fuck was Richard doing? Not just when Ben was leader, but even with Widmore?

Yeah Richard was sort of a coward, he was way too passive with the leaders of The Others. He doesn't have what we would call an aggressive personality, I thought that was pretty clear from what we see of his character.

Maybe it ultimately came down to giving the leaders a choice, to follow all of Jacob's orders, or do as they wish, since Jacob's all about "choice"?

 

[Shorty]

But there again, what the fuck was Richard doing? Not just when Ben was leader, but even with Widmore?

Well Richard DID help the Losties, didn't he? He gave Locke the file about Sawyer, helping Locke to kill his dad, which led to Ben's demise and the rise of Locke. Richard knew Ben wasn't doing what Jacob expected from him but distracted the others with unimportant peanuts like fertility problems.

 

[Erigu]

Yeah Richard was sort of a coward, he was way too passive with the leaders of The Others. He doesn't have what we would call an aggressive personality, I thought that was pretty clear from what we see of his character.

Well, he kinda has to be for all that shit to happen. But then again, we also see him talk to Locke behind Ben's back, so... Eeeh...
I think it's pretty clear that thing about Richard being the only Other on speaking terms with Jacob (maybe Dôgen, too? who the fuck knows, really...) was only thought up toward the end of the show...

Maybe it ultimately came down to giving the leaders a choice, to follow all of Jacob's orders, or do as they wish, since Jacob's all about "choice"?

Well, that's what he says, but I don't know that I would call manipulating a bunch of people (some of them since they were kids, apparently) into boarding a plane and making that plane crash on a magically isolated (and somewhat dangerous) island being "all about choice"...
Plus:

BEN: Thirty-five years I lived on this island, and all I ever heard was your name over and over. Richard would bring me your instructions--all those slips of paper, all those lists--and I never questioned anything. I did as I was told. But when I dared to ask to see you myself, I was told, "You have to wait. You have to be patient."

Seems Jacob was in charge, actually. So what gives?

Well Richard DID help the Losties, didn't he? He gave Locke the file about Sawyer, helping Locke to kill his dad

Yeah, he helped the pledge with that particular test. I hope nobody found out, or Richard would be in so much trouble!
What the fuck was wrong with those people, anyway? "Kill your dad, or you can't be part of the cool kids! We'll be over there, roasting marshmallows." Wut?

which led to Ben's demise and the rise of Locke.

It actually led to Locke being left for dead in a pit. Ben was just fine.
The "rise of Locke" to leadership was more of a season 4 thing, and Ben was instrumental, as he was the one who was constantly telling Locke "no, you go to the cabin: Jacob wants to talk to you", "no, I turn the wheel; you need to take my place as leader" (not much of a "demise").
Until the writers realized that they didn't know what to do with Ben after that and the character was too popular to be written off, so he just went back to being jealous as hell. Okay.

 

[Deleted member 12837]

Well, he kinda has to be for all that shit to happen. But then again, we also see him talk to Locke behind Ben's back, so... Eeeh...

Yeah, Richard helped the Losties. He couldn't stand up to corrupt leaders of The Others, but he could help people out behind their back.

I think it's pretty clear that thing about Richard being the only Other on speaking terms with Jacob (maybe Dôgen, too? who the fuck knows, really...) was only thought up toward the end of the show...

I'm not following, what suggests that exactly? I thought it was always pretty clear that Richard is the guy who Jacob goes through. Ben had never seen him, even though he The Others all probably thought he had (part of that whole manipulation and maintaining power thing).

Seems Jacob was in charge, actually. So what gives?

Doesn't mean Ben couldn't do stuff on his own. I doubt all of the creepy stuff with Juliet was Jacob's bidding.

Until the writers realized that they didn't know what to do with Ben after that and the character was too popular to be written off, so he just went back to being jealous as hell. Okay.

Yeah, I was always disappointed by that. Starting a bit in Season 4, and definitely in Seasons 5 and 6, Ben just kinda sucks. Season 2 and 3 Ben is much more badass.

 

[Shorty]

Yeah, he helped the pledge with that particular test. I hope nobody found out, or Richard would be in so much trouble!
What the fuck was wrong with those people, anyway? "Kill your dad, or you can't be part of the cool kids! We'll be over there, roasting marshmallows." Wut?

If I remember correctly it was a symbolic act to test if Locke was willing and worthy to leave his past behind and start a new life as a leader in devotion to the island/jacob. It was kind of gruesome though, I agree.

It actually led to Locke being left for dead in a pit. Ben was just fine.
The "rise of Locke" to leadership was more of a season 4 thing, and Ben was instrumental, as he was the one who constantly told Locke "no, you go to the cabin: Jacob wants to talk to you", "no, I turn the wheel; you need to take my place as leader".

Yeah but Richard's intent was still to help Locke.

Until the writers realized that they didn't know what to do with Ben after that and the character was too popular to be written off, so he just went back to being jealous as hell. Okay.

Agreed, but that is no plothole and neither was it bad writing. They had to change plans according to new circumstances and they still managed to keep the character of Ben engaging until the very end although Emersons acting may have played a big part in that too.

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

This critic talked about that relatively recently, actually: the music felt tacky and annoyingly intrusive to me.I wouldn't blame Giacchino for that though: had the show been better written, there wouldn't have been those "yeah, music, I know this is supposed to be epic, but it just looks like another trek through the island to me, and those characters and plotlines still make no fucking sense: I'm not with you" or "here comes the crescendo announcing cryptic line #58 that will already be forgotten after the commercials" moments...
The show relied too much on its music. But then again, something was desperately needed to help viewers swallow the plot.


All that talk about "letting go", you guys... It would almost be cute if it weren't so headache-inducing.
And since when is it "amazing" for a TV show to be discussed a while after it ended, anyway? Especially considering what it is we're discussing, here... Not exactly something the showrunners should be proud of...

there aren't enough LOLs. you tried to troll us dude, but you just aren't good enough.

 

[Erigu]

Yeah, Richard helped the Losties. He couldn't stand up to corrupt leaders of The Others

Why not though? I'd think him being the immortal first Other and on speaking terms with Jacob should help a whole lot?
And were the leaders really "corrupt"? Who ordered the Purge? Was it just Widmore? If so, was Jacob okay with that? Surely, Jacob would have known anyway, right?

I'm not following, what suggests that exactly? I thought it was always pretty clear that Richard is the guy who Jacob goes through.

When Locke wants to see Jacob, Ben is the guide, and Richard seems oddly out of the loop...
And when Ben comes back:

BEN: It's time to get them.
RICHARD: [Mumbles] But you said tomorrow.
BEN: Jacob wants it to happen now.

"Oh, okay, then"?

Incidentally, right after that:

RICHARD: Look, what happened out there--did John see...

Yeah, did he see the invisible Jacob whom only the chosen ones can perceive?
I guess there would be other ways to interpret that one, sure, but it looks like that was before the writers came up with their Jacob/Barry endgame thingy, back when Jacob was really supposed to be some kind of technophobic poltergeist (the commentary at the time is an amusing read, too).

Incidentally incidentally, who calls their brother "my friend"? Answer: a vaguely defined man in black in the season 5 finale.
But hey: they totally knew what the monster was back in season 1, y'all! Same thing for those skeletons! It's not like they improvised all that shit over the last few months!

Ben had never seen him, even though he The Others all probably thought he had (part of that whole manipulation and maintaining power thing).

And Richard being an amoeba.

Doesn't mean Ben couldn't do stuff on his own.

You'd think Richard would know... but yeah, amoeba. He has to be, really.

I doubt all of the creepy stuff with Juliet was Jacob's bidding.

Probably not that one, but then again, Jacob appears to be a bit of a weirdo anyway...
Who came up with that rule stating that you can't have a family off-island, for example?

If I remember correctly it was a symbolic act to test if Locke was willing and worthy to leave his past behind and start a new life as a leader in devotion to the island/jacob.

It wasn't even about leadership, back then, actually:

BEN: When people join us here on this Island, they need to make a gesture of free will, of commitment. That's why you're gonna have to kill your father.

(let's not ask what "free will" has to do with anything, here again)
Sooo... Did they also fetch Cindy's father for her? What about the kids, Zach and Emma?

It was kind of gruesome though, I agree.

But it's cool that the kids were allowed to watch.

Richard's intent was still to help Locke.

Against a leader he could probably impeach anyway just by talking to Jacob? "I'm not so sure about the human sacrifice rituals our guys are into, lately... -The WHAT?"
Or was Jacob okay with all that? Does that jibe with the Jacob we eventually see from the season 5 finale on?

Agreed, but that is no plothole and neither was it bad writing.

No justifications were given for Ben drastically flip-flopping back and forth like that. I'd definitely call that bad writing.
And it's not the only example of that either, on this show...

 

[nomis]

I can't believe I had to lurk all the way through season 6 and not be able to discuss it's many great moments of catharsis and emotion on GAF, and now have an account just in time to read this Erigu guy's like 500th post shitting on Cuse and Lindelof's writing for absolutely no purpose other than to piss people off.

I had problems with the finale. I would have been able to accept the entire season as a semi-scientific, semi-magical way that the survivors created an alternate universe where they could be happy, together. Then I got to see them in a glowing white church with religious iconography scattered about for the sake of appearances. It rubbed me the wrong way.

It was still great TV.

 

[Deleted member 12837]

Why not though? I'd think him being the immortal first Other and on speaking terms with Jacob should help a whole lot?

Because that's just who he is. Is that so hard to accept (serious question)?

He's a wuss when it comes to directly confronting the leaders of The Others, that's his character. If Jacob wanted Richard to be the leader, he'd be the leader. But he isn't, and Richard knows that, so he doesn't challenge the leaders.

And were the leaders really "corrupt"? Who ordered the Purge? Was it just Widmore? If so, was Jacob okay with that? Surely, Jacob would have known anyway, right?

Not sure about Widmore (to be honest I stopped paying attention to his storyline, I didn't like the way they dealt with him in Season 6), but Ben certainly was corrupt. This is kind of going off on a tangent though from my original point about Richard's personality, so I think I'll just end this here...

When Locke wants to see Jacob, Ben is the guide, and Richard seems oddly out of the loop...
And when Ben comes back:

"Oh, okay, then"?

Incidentally, right after that:

This all fits my "Richard is a wuss" point. It seems like we agree?

Incidentally incidentally, who calls their brother "my friend"?

I'm pretty sure most people with brothers consider them friends...

And Richard being an amoeba.

You'd think Richard would know... but yeah, amoeba. He has to be, really.

Yep. Again, Richard isn't willing to stand up to the leaders directly. This is shown time and time again. Not sure why that's a bad thing, or a plot hole. You seem to be painting it in a negative light...

Who came up with that rule stating that you can't have a family off-island, for example?

Not sure. Every society has its laws, The Others had some weird ones (along with gentlemen's agreements, apparently). And then Jacob and The Island had their own rules, but those were pretty hastily and somewhat sloppily laid out by the writers and are off-topic. I know you're dying to tear into them though, I don't blame you, but let's put that aside...

 

[Erigu]

this Erigu guy's like 500th post shitting on Cuse and Lindelof's writing for absolutely no purpose other than to piss people off.

Yes, criticism is Pure Evil. Malevolence Incarnate.

Because that's just who he is. Is that so hard to accept (serious question)?

That means the guy utterly sucks at his job, even after 100+ years, so yeah, kinda.

Also, Ben says that when he asked to see Jacob, he was told "no Jacob for you". Who told him that, in your opinion?
Ben is kinda forceful, isn't he? If Richard really was the complete amoeba he needs to be to neglect his job to the point where the Others become a bunch of degenerate assholes who actually attack newcomers (dude! as if the smoke monster wasn't bad enough already! also, Cindy the stewardess? turned into a degenerate asshole in just a few weeks' time: Richard is just that bad), how come Ben didn't manage to see Jacob in all those years?

Not sure about Widmore (to be honest I stopped paying attention to his storyline, I didn't like the way they dealt with him in Season 6)

It's probably for the best...

but Ben certainly was corrupt.

Well, there was all that (absurd) plan of his to get Jack to fix him, and yeah, the Juliet thing, too.
Wouldn't Jacob know about all that though?

I'm pretty sure most people with brothers consider them friends...

... Er... I'd say they consider them family?
Have you ever heard someone call their brother "my friend"?

Every society has its laws, The Others had some weird ones (along with gentlemen's agreements, apparently).

But Jacob is all about choice and free will and flowers and unicorns! He's the coolest dude ever and, like, totally okay about who you were before you got there: the past doesn't matter, man! (we're really sorry about all those hours of flashbacks)
Wait, what? a daughter off-island? Oh, shit, tell me you didn't do that, Widmore. Off with you, I guess. Jacob will have to find somebody else to gas entire families the next time around.

And then Jacob and The Island had their own rules, but those were pretty hastily and somewhat sloppily laid out by the writers and are off-topic.

Well, they were among the questions I listed earlier...

I know you're dying to tear into them though, I don't blame you, but let's put that aside...

Oh, I did that already anyway. ^^
And I see we agree that they were hastily and sloppily laid out by the writers, so...

 

[Deleted member 12837]

That means the guy utterly sucks at his job, even after 100+ years, so yeah, kinda.

Is his job to control the leaders of The Others? Also, someone being bad at some parts of their job description, even after 100+ years != impossible or difficult to accept as a character. That's quite a strange way to look at things, but it's your opinion I guess.

Also, Ben says that when he asked to see Jacob, he was told "no Jacob for you". Who told him that, in your opinion? Ben is kinda forceful, isn't he?

Jacob, through Richard. Ben can't exactly force his way to see Jacob if he doesn't know where to look. If he did, Richard probably wouldn't stop him (doesn't do us any good to speculate though), but Ben doesn't.

Wouldn't Jacob know about all that though?

Yes.

... Er... I'd say they consider them family?

I see, so you consider "family" and "friend" to be mutually exclusive or something?

Have you ever heard someone call their brother "my friend"?

Err..Seriously? Countless times. In fact, every single person I know (I'm only using anecdotal evidence since you asked for it directly) who doesn't hate their family considers their siblings to be among their best friends. Calling your spouse your "best friend" is even commonly part of wedding vows. It's perfectly normal to consider family to be friends. On the flipside, there are also plenty of families that hate each other and wouldn't consider family to be friends at all.

What a ridiculous question.

And I see we agree that they were hastily and sloppily laid out by the writers, so...

We do indeed. Does it annoy you (or do you look down on me?) for still enjoying the show despite that?

 

[nomis]

Yes, criticism is Pure Evil. Malevolence Incarnate.

It may have started out as criticism coming from a place of disappointment in the outcome of something that you loved, but now it's thinly veiled trolling.

There is pointed criticism, and then there's your relentlessness. It is not your divine quest to convince every Lost fan on GAF that the wool was pulled over their eyes and it was actually all a turd. The sensation of You v The Ones Who Don't Get It may feel good, but based on the fact that you've been doing it for at least 80 pages, I think you might be beating a dead horse.

 

[BuggyDClown]

It may have started out as criticism coming from a place of disappointment in the outcome of something that you loved, but now it's thinly veiled trolling.

There is pointed criticism, and then there's your relentlessness. It is not your divine quest to convince every Lost fan on GAF that the wool was pulled over their eyes and it was actually all a turd. The sensation of You v The Ones Who Don't Get It may feel good, but based on the fact that you've been doing it for at least 80 pages, I think you might be beating a dead horse.

I swear. He literally is the forum version of the MiB. He just can not let go. It's like he is trapped in this thread, and until he can get someone else to destroy it he can not leave.

 

[TheExodu5]

This thread would be dead without Erigu. Be thankful.

 

[BuggyDClown]

This thread would be dead without Erigu. Be thankful.

Most certainly not. Heck I stopped posting in here for awhile until I found out you can ignore posts. I bet I'm not the only one.

In other news. I'm finishing my rematch with my cousin whom is a first timer. Up to the Lighthouse next S6 Ep4. So excited, absolutely love that episode.

 

[Erigu]

Is his job to control the leaders of The Others?

Well, his job is to serve as an intermediary, so if the Others end up behaving like Droogs and ignoring/corrupting said instructions, what's the point? He took the job, he started the Others, so yeah, I'd think he bears some responsibility.
Of course, if you're arguing that Richard simply doesn't give a shit about all that... Man, this Richard is just the worst, isn't he? ^_^;

Also, someone being bad at some parts of their job description, even after 100+ years != impossible or difficult to accept as a character.

Jacob would have to be a complete moron to keep him at that post the whole time if he's that incompetent... Not that it's the first time in this topic we'd be reaching that conclusion, but it doesn't look like Jacob is supposed to be a complete moron.

Jacob, through Richard. Ben can't exactly force his way to see Jacob if he doesn't know where to look.

He doesn't? How did he know where to find the cabin, then? Doesn't that imply he went there before?

Yes.

So Jacob is fine with Ben being corrupt?
And he was fine with Widmore gassing DHARMA?
But the same Widmore had to go because he had a daughter off-island?
And Jacob is actually a really nice guy?

so you consider "family" and "friend" to be mutually exclusive or something?

Well, my phone does, and it says here it's "smart". Who am I argue? I don't even know how the damn thing works.
Seriously though, I'd separate the two, myself, yes. And I don't think I'd be the only one.
"Who's that guy?
-A friend.
-Oh.
-And my brother.
-???"

every single person I know (I'm only using anecdotal evidence since you asked for it directly) who doesn't hate their family considers their siblings to be among their best friends. Calling your spouse your "best friend" is even commonly part of wedding vows.

Well, I'd think there's a bit of a difference between saying "my brother is also my best friend", and actually calling your brother "my friend"... You've heard that?

Why do you assume that the rules of their society come from Jacob?

I would think either they do or Jacob doesn't have a problem with them, so in the end...

We do indeed. Does it annoy you (or do you look down on me?) for still enjoying the show despite that?

Nope?

It may have started out as criticism coming from a place of disappointment in the outcome of something that you loved

Not for me, no...
I'm just annoyed that such shitty writing ended up garnering so much praise. And there would also be Lindelof/Cuse...

There is pointed criticism, and then there's your relentlessness.

... And then, there's you claiming that I'm trolling, and I'm not sure how you went from point A to point B.
Mocking the show certainly amuses me (it's hard to take such a mess seriously anyway), but it doesn't follow that I'm posting to piss people off.

It is not your divine quest to convince every Lost fan on GAF that the wool was pulled over their eyes and it was actually all a turd.

And it's not (some of) the regulars' divine quest to try and protect the show's honor either. Guess they just feel somewhat strongly about that. Can't I?

 

[Deleted member 12837]

Well, his job is to serve as an intermediary, so if the Others end up behaving like Droogs and ignoring/corrupting said instructions, what's the point? He took the job, he started the Others, so yeah, I'd think he bears some responsibility.
Of course, if you're arguing that Richard simply doesn't give a shit about all that... Man, this Richard is just the worst, isn't he? ^_^;

I don't think Jacob micromanages all that much with the Losties once they're on the Island. I think Richard's job is to pass along instructions, and keep an eye on things without necessarily directly intervening all the time. That's my view on it.

He doesn't? How did he know where to find the cabin, then? Doesn't that imply he went there before?

Jacob is in the statue at that point. The cabin has been abandoned. Ben even admits he's never actually seen Jacob there.

So Jacob is fine with Ben being corrupt?
And he was fine with Widmore gassing DHARMA?
But the same Widmore had to go because he had a daughter off-island?
And Jacob is actually a really nice guy?

These aren't the things about Lost that "keep me awake at night" (note: figure of speech, nothing about Lost actually bothers me even close to that much), but...

Yes. Perhaps hoping Ben would redeem himself (which he does). Jacob has a lot of faith in people.

Not sure (see my previous comment about how I feel about Widmore), although Dharma was getting too greedy/close to the light, so I'd say yes.

I can't pretend to completely understand the values of their society. I'm sure I can find plenty of crazy, seemingly inconsistent or unbalanced laws or rules in other cultures around the world, and it would be quite presumptuous of me to try to judge them based on my own worldview. If they truly believe in the sacredness of the Island, I could understand having off-islands relations to be blasphemy, sure.

I never said Jacob was nice.

Also, not really interested in having 4 or 5 more back-and-forth posts about those particular responses. I'm sure you'll find them to be full of your "holes" but like I said, I'm quite satisfied with my conclusions on them and going into detailed analysis of those points doesn't interest me because it's not important to the overall impact of the show to me beyond the conclusions I've drawn (much like the Egypt stuff we discussed several pages back).

Well, I'd think there's a bit of a difference between saying "my brother is also my best friend", and actually calling your brother "my friend"... You've heard that?

Wasn't the context of Jacob's comment sort of sarcastic/tongue-in-cheek (not sure I remember what scene you're referencing)?

We can probably drop the argument on semantics, it's pointless. In my experience, it's common to consider siblings and family as "friends". That label is even part of wedding vows. Yes I've heard people refer to siblings as friends when asked who their friends are. I guess that's not your experience.

 

[nomis]

Not for me, no...

Then why would any fan here care about your criticism if you never liked the show in the first place? Most people that hate something just choose to ignore it, instead of needling out every percieved flaw to convince others of the errors of their ways. I'm not saying that fandom is a requisite of criticism because that's a contradiction, but you could have just stated your critique months ago for people to either approve, reject, or just respect it's existence. I guess I'm saying that if Lost had your love and lost it, many here could at least sympathize. Instead you crave the attention of people's ire and you've written an essay by piecemeal titled "How Lost Is Actually a Bag of Feces". In 491 bite sized portions.

And it's not (some of) the regulars' divine quest to try and protect the show's honor either. Guess they just feel somewhat strongly about that. Can't I?

Do you honestly not realize that you are the catalyst here? No one was valiantly trying to defend the show until you tried to deconstruct every single aspect of it. The "Anti-Erigu Lost Defense Force" here seem to be people that were at least somewhat disappointed by season 6, but unlike you they aren't asking for 125 hours of their life back.

... And then, there's you claiming that I'm trolling, and I'm not sure how you went from point A to point B.
Mocking the show certainly amuses me (it's hard to take such a mess seriously anyway), but it doesn't follow that I'm posting to piss people off.

You are literally trolling in your statement claiming that you aren't trolling. Masterful. You are in the Lost|OT| 14 months after the show has ended.

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

I'm curious erigu why you never bothered to post during any of the episodes?

 

[Erigu]

I don't think Jacob micromanages all that much with the Losties once they're on the Island. I think Richard's job is to pass along instructions, and keep an eye on things without necessarily directly intervening all the time. That's my view on it.

Yeah, I'd think keeping an eye on things is part of the job...

Jacob is in the statue at that point.

At what point? We don't know when Jacob moved back exactly, and Ben has been leader of the Others for a while...
(and Ilana still thought Jacob lived in that cabin, in season 5... tohoho)

Ben even admits he's never actually seen Jacob there.

Did he actually say that he had never seen Jacob there (as in, "in the cabin")?

The way I pictured it, Ben knew about Jacob's cabin and where it was because he went there with Richard but stayed outside...
But I guess he may have learned (somehow??) that Jacob used to live in that one cabin at some point, and he could have then checked the place out, out of curiosity...?

Perhaps hoping Ben would redeem himself

Does that come from that thing about how Jacob was hoping Ben would decide to not stab him?
And then... "Oh, whoops, he actually did! That's... That's bad news for the island and the world, I guess. Maybe I shouldn't have teased him so damn much, in retrospect..."
I don't even know what Jacob was trying to prove, or what kind of test that was supposed to be, there...
(and he sure didn't let Richard kill him, 100+ years earlier...)

(which he does)

Hmmm... ^^;
I guess we're supposed to infer he became a great guy after the show ended (well, before they all died, that is), yeah, but I haven't seen much in the way of redemption...

Jacob has a lot of faith in people.

Is that why he never bothered to explain what was going on until it was almost too late (and even then, he didn't really get into the specifics, like, say, why the island needed protecting)?
"Oh, I'm sure they'll find out by themselves..."
Three years later
"... Okay, so maybe I should brief them, after all."

Alternate reply:
Who needs faith in people when you can send them on a specific path of your choice for years just by handing them a pen?

Both replies may seem contradictory. That's the Lost magic.

Not sure (see my previous comment about how I feel about Widmore), although Dharma was getting too greedy/close to the light, so I'd say yes.
[...]
I can't pretend to completely understand the values of their society. I'm sure I can find plenty of crazy, seemingly inconsistent or unbalanced laws or rules in other cultures around the world, and it would be quite presumptuous of me to try to judge them based on my own worldview. If they truly believe in the sacredness of the Island, I could understand having off-islands relations to be blasphemy, sure.

And somehow worse than mass murder. That was okay because the scientists were being scientists, so they had to die, obviously.
I really find that hard to reconcile with the Jacob we're (finally) shown.

I never said Jacob was nice.

Not saying you did either. No, I'm talking about how the show portrays him from the season 5 finale on.

Wasn't the context of Jacob's comment sort of sarcastic/tongue-in-cheek (not sure I remember what scene you're referencing)?

Barry's the one who said that, and that definitely was sarcastic/tongue-in-cheek (I'm talking about the scene where Jacob first appears, in the season 5 finale).
Still seems unnatural as hell when addressing your own brother. I don't think they even knew that, back then.

Like I don't think they knew where they were going with this "candidates" thing, in that episode...
Bram asked Ilana if she thought Lapidus was a candidate... Guys, don't you have a list? Have you even looked at it? And shouldn't you be somewhat concerned about that Korean woman who... well, she's gone now. Ilana has trained for that her whole life!
Guess they hadn't thought of that list yet ("6 numbers = 6 candidates! so clever! it took us a few months to come up with that! and screw you, Kate!"). Which is why they actually had to go back and film a few more seconds of that hospital scene with Ilana and Jacob for season 6...

Yes I've heard people refer to siblings as friends when asked who their friends are.

I was actually asking if you had heard someone say "my friend" when talking to their brother, like Barry did on Lost... but I guess we should just drop the subject, at this point...

why would any fan here care about your criticism if you never liked the show in the first place?

Why not?
According to you, fans shouldn't be expected to care about criticism unless it comes from another fan, or at least a former fan? Shit, that's just sad. And not very nice for fans in general. I'm going to have to disagree with you, there.

Most people that hate something just choose to ignore it

There are people who don't like fast food, and then there are people who are against fast food.

I guess I'm saying that if Lost had your love and lost it, many here could at least sympathize. Instead you crave the attention of people's ire

Not following you, sorry. Is it either their sympathies or the attention of their ire? Are those my only options, according to you?
(For the record, I'm interested in neither.)

Do you honestly not realize that you are the catalyst here? No one was valiantly trying to defend the show until you tried to deconstruct every single aspect of it.

They're defending the show because I'm criticizing it? Well, I'm criticizing it because I was annoyed by the praise the show was getting. They started it, your Honor!
But really... What's the problem, here? That's just how a debate between two opposing sides who feel strongly about a given subject goes. I'm not following you...

unlike you they aren't asking for 125 hours of their life back.

I don't remember ever asking that.

You are literally trolling in your statement claiming that you aren't trolling.

Criticizing the show isn't trolling. If you feel personally offended when I say that the show was a mess, it's your problem, really.

You are in the Lost|OT| 14 months after the show has ended.

And the date is July 26. Sunny weather.
Not sure what that has to do with anything though.

I'm curious erigu why you never bothered to post during any of the episodes?

I wasn't following the topics.
Why do you ask?

 

[C.Dark.DN]

It makes no sense that someone so contemptuous and obsessive over the flaws of lost wouldn't have followed the threads and or would ignore them. A LOST thread has been on the front page a large percentage of the time you have been a member here. A lot of the things you discuss and critiize could have been said before season 6, yet you don't lift a finger to do something you claim you love. Which is to critisize lost almost daily, weekly for sure, for a year and counting for analytic thrill or whatever. Attention brings out the worst in people, it's proven throughout time.

 

[Erigu]

It makes no sense that someone so contemptuous and obsessive over the flaws of lost wouldn't have followed the threads.

Yeah! All the threads, of all forums, of all internets!

Well, sorry, but there you go: I wasn't following the topics.
(and I'm still not sure where you two are going with that anyway)

A lot of the things you discuss and critiize could have been said before season 6, yet you don't lift a finger

Hint:

Spoiler

There are other forums.

Not that I spent that much time criticizing the show before it ended, indeed. The "how could you possibly tell it makes no sense when it's not even over yet?!" defense got boring real fast. But now, it's all out there. Yay.

 

[nomis]

Why not?
According to you, fans shouldn't be expected to care about criticism unless it comes from another fan, or at least a former fan? Shit, that's just sad. And not very nice for fans in general. I'm going to have to disagree with you, there.

That's exactly what I didn't say. I'm saying that the corpse is cold.

Not following you, sorry. Is it either their sympathies or the attention of their ire? Are those my only options, according to you?
(For the record, I'm interested in neither.)

No, those are not your only options. Those are two options. The latter is the one that you have completely achieved, and the former is one that you could have (your opponents at least understanding your position) if you were at all coming from a place of liking the show but thinking that it lost it's way. If you never liked anything about the show to begin with, then you should have no reason whatsoever to be disappointed in what you think is it's inferiority.

They're defending the show because I'm criticizing it?

Yes.

Well, I'm criticizing it because I was annoyed by the praise the show was getting.

Your position is reactionary, you would not hate Lost so much if people didn't like it so much. So really you didn't think Lost was so bad that you should spend hours and hours online, compulsively dissecting it. But you did, because people liked something that you didn't.

If you just didn't give so much of a shit what other people thought, and didn't burst blood vessels at the thought of someone liking something you thought was mediocre or bad, then you might have been able to spend the time you've wasted on this thread and actually enjoyed something yourself. Here's a tip... form opinions of things on your own, in a vacuum, and don't let what other people think taint it.

But really... What's the problem, here? That's just how a debate between two opposing sides who feel strongly about a given subject goes. I'm not following you...

This isn't a "debate" going on. You don't have a handful of issues with the show that you have outlined and are now criticizing. Your thesis is "Lost is bad". When you run out of aspects to say were shit, you make up new ones. This could literally go on for another year.

Like I said, there's critique of entertainment, and then there's deep frustration at people choosing to not be cynical and forgive something of it's flaws. You passed through the realm of criticism and into the realm of enjoying negative attention (trolling), long ago.

Criticizing the show isn't trolling. If you feel personally offended when I say that the show was a mess, it's your problem, really.

I was offended because you are being offensive. You can dislike a movie or TV show without thinking everyone involved in it's production was incompetent. Your opinion probably lost any respect it could've had from me when you started donging on Giacchino.

 

[Erigu]

That's exactly what I didn't say.

Eeeeeeh?
You said this: "why would any fan here care about your criticism if you never liked the show in the first place?"
How does that not mean that you think fans won't care about criticism if it comes from somebody who never was a fan in the first place?

I'm saying that the corpse is cold.

Maybe that's what you're saying now, but that's not what you were saying right above.

No, those are not your only options. Those are two options.

Well, I don't give a damn about those two options, sorry to say. I don't even know why you brought that up. You're not making much sense.

If you never liked anything about the show to begin with, then you should have no reason whatsoever to be disappointed in what you think is it's inferiority.

And I don't know why you're talking about my being "disappointed", now...
I liked the premise, thought it could be interesting but wasn't convinced it would make much sense considering the "J.J. Abrams" in the credits, soon realized they had no idea where they were going in season 1, wondered if season 2 would turn things around, saw that it didn't, and stayed for the trainwreck.
So how disappointed was I? Barely.

Overall, it seems to me that you haven't read much of what I posted. Certainly can't blame you for that, but when you pretend to explain what it is that I'm thinking/doing/saying, you're completely off the mark as a result.

Your position is reactionary, you would not hate Lost so much if people didn't like it so much.

And you would not defend Lost so much if I didn't criticize it so much!
Amusingly, that's what you were saying one post earlier. So I still don't know where you're going with that. You're all over the place, man.

So really you didn't think Lost was so bad that you should spend hours and hours online, compulsively dissecting it.

Oh, it was really, really bad.
The problem was that, unlike most terrible shows, it was also received really, really well. Critical praise and all that shit. That's kinda unusual. And a bit depressing/alarming.

Here's a tip... form opinions of things on your own, in a vacuum, and don't let what other people think taint it.

Er... "Thanks", but I didn't? I thought the show was a laughable mess. That's my opinion.

I was offended because you are being offensive.

Saying a TV show is a mess isn't being offensive. Grow a fucking skin.

You can dislike a movie or TV show without thinking everyone involved in it's production was incompetent.

I never said anything like that.

Your opinion probably lost any respect it could've had from me when you started donging on Giacchino.

I didn't.
Guess the problem isn't just that you're new to this topic and missed a bunch of posts: you can't read.
(feel free to find that one offensive, but you could also check what I really said about Giacchino and realize you put words in my mouth... not just here, really, but that would be a start)

 

[Deleted member 12837]

At what point? We don't know when Jacob moved back exactly, and Ben has been leader of the Others for a while...
(and Ilana still thought Jacob lived in that cabin, in season 5... tohoho)

Ilana has been gone a while. And if we don't know when he moved exactly then it just as easily could've been a while ago, couldn't it? That's how I choose to interpret it.

The way I pictured it, Ben knew about Jacob's cabin and where it was because he went there with Richard but stayed outside...
But I guess he may have learned (somehow??) that Jacob used to live in that one cabin at some point, and he could have then checked the place out, out of curiosity...?

That's one of the things I find great about Lost. People can come up with different interpretations that are equally valid. I see it as more of the latter sentence than the former.

Also, the original point was that Ben doesn't know that Jacob now lives in the statue, so he can't just force his way into seeing him (because he doesn't know he's there). I find this happens a lot, discussions with you spin away from the original points.

I guess we're supposed to infer he became a great guy after the show ended (well, before they all died, that is), yeah, but I haven't seen much in the way of redemption...

I did. IMO he's come quite a long way, and is set up at the end to continue along that path.

Both replies may seem contradictory. That's the Lost magic.

I disagree.

And somehow worse than mass murder.

Apparently in their society, yes. Mass murder was condoned for the good of the Island if it was being threatened.

I really find that hard to reconcile with the Jacob we're (finally) shown.

And I don't (starting to see a pattern here?). People can have differing views and interpretations. Doesn't make everyone else's besides yours invalid. I was never convinced Jacob was 100% "Mr. Nice Good Guy". I never got that impression from the show, even Season 5 onward as you mentioned.

 

[satriales]

I agree with a lot of Erigu's points. Those first four seasons of Lost were some of the best TV I'd seen, but then season 5 is where it became clear that the writers had been lying to us the whole time and we weren't going to get satisfactory answers. Season 6 was just laughably bad, although my expectations were so low by the finale that I actually quite enjoyed that final episode. I also never quite understood the love for the music.

 

[Erigu]

Ilana has been gone a while.

?
Do you know something I don't about Ilana?

if we don't know when he moved exactly then it just as easily could've been a while ago, couldn't it? That's how I choose to interpret it.

Sure, that would only make Ilana even more hilariously unprepared for that one task she spent her whole life training for.

That's one of the things I find great about Lost. People can come up with different interpretations that are equally valid. I see it as more of the latter sentence than the former.

Any idea as to how Ben would have learned about that though?

I did. IMO he's come quite a long way, and is set up at the end to continue along that path.

"My daughter was murdered in front of me, and it was all my fault. But really Jacob's. So I hated the guy and I killed him. Now, I'm sorry. And crying.
-Okay."
REDEEMED!
(He then shoots Widmore, presumably because the guy who killed his daughter worked for him. So it was his fault, really.)

I disagree.

About what and why?

Apparently in their society, yes. Mass murder was condoned for the good of the Island if it was being threatened.

Nobody saw that coming, when scientists just kept doing science year after year after year.
Obviously, Jacob didn't either, and there was nothing they could do about it. Except mass murder.
Can't blame Jack for putting all his faith in the guy, in the end: he's clearly been doing his best, for that and everything else, from the beginning. Like Lindelof and Cuse. So meta.

And I don't (starting to see a pattern here?). People can have differing views and interpretations. Doesn't make everyone else's besides yours invalid. I was never convinced Jacob was 100% "Mr. Nice Good Guy". I never got that impression from the show, even Season 5 onward as you mentioned.

The worst the characters had to say about Jacob after that little campfire where he told them that he made their plane crash three years ago because he thought their lives were fucked up already and that Kate could totally be a candidate again because he just crossed her name off the list of monster-proof people on a whim (but not quite why their friends had to die while he was chilling on the beach or hiding in the bushes) was:

SAWYER: Doesn't sound like he said anything about anything.
HURLEY: That's kinda of true, dude. He's worse than Yoda.

Dude, worse than Yoda? Harsh.

 

[Solo]

Erigu is in the midst of a long con we've never seen the likes of.

 

[butter_stick]

People replying to Erigu are worse than him.

 

[Erigu]

And Yoda.

 

[big ander]

People replying to Erigu are worse than him.

.

 

[Catalix]

Most people that hate something just choose to ignore it, instead of needling out every percieved flaw to convince others of the errors of their ways.

You're not exactly adhering to your own philosophy here...

Some of you guys are taking Erigu's posts way too personally. In no way shape or form is this guy a threat to your LOST posting experience. He's just one dude. ONE. He's a known factor; has been for over a year. You should know by now that he's not going anywhere any time soon.

You claim to hate his presence in this thread, yet actively make him the #1 subject time and time again. If his posting style/habits tend to upset you, take a step back and follow your own advise: simply ignore him. Either that, or develop thicker skin. For the love of Jacob, stop the madness, people.

 

[nomis]

Ok, after this I'm out.

Eeeeeeh?
You said this: "why would any fan here care about your criticism if you never liked the show in the first place?"
How does that not mean that you think fans won't care about criticism if it comes from somebody who never was a fan in the first place?

By care, I mean truly care. A critical point doesn't have to come from someone who used to like it, as long as it's a good point. They can respect your opinion or think you have good points even if you had said "Lost is the worst show ever made", but at the end of the day if you did not find any redeeming qualities in the show, a big fan is not going to care that you are endlessly hating on every aspect for a year after it's over.

And you would not defend Lost so much if I didn't criticize it so much!
Amusingly, that's what you were saying one post earlier. So I still don't know where you're going with that. You're all over the place, man.

You're missing my entire point. I have passion for the show. It's impossible for you to have so much negative-passion about something that you've wasted this much time in your life talking about something that you hate. You're getting something else out of it, which is attention, and it's the only reason you're still here. You continue the troll, and someone new coming into the thread (namely me) is the biggest thing fueling it. So goodbye.

Saying a TV show is a mess isn't being offensive. Grow a fucking skin.

I've heard dozens of people say pretty much the same thing about Lost, and I still respect them a lot. When I said "You are being offensive", I meant that I find using a contradictory opinion just to garner attention is offensive.

 

[Deleted member 12837]

Do you know something I don't about Ilana?

No.

Any idea as to how Ben would have learned about that though?

No. There are several possibilities I can think of, but it's not important for me to pick one because that detail isn't very important (You're probably going to argue that it is to you. I'll stop you now to save you some time: it just isn't to me.)

"My daughter was murdered in front of me, and it was all my fault. But really Jacob's. So I hated the guy and I killed him. Now, I'm sorry. And crying.
-Okay."
REDEEMED!
(He then shoots Widmore, presumably because the guy who killed his daughter worked for him. So it was his fault, really.)

This looks like you might be trying to argue something? But it just looks like a sarcastic oversimplification! So hard to tell with you. (my opinion still stands btw)

About what and why?

That the replies are contradictory. I don't see them that way, I don't think I need to explain my opinion to you either since we disagree and I'm not attempting to change your mind on that point.

Nobody saw that coming, when scientists just kept doing science year after year after year.
Obviously, Jacob didn't either, and there was nothing they could do about it. Except mass murder.
Can't blame Jack for putting all his faith in the guy, in the end: he's clearly been doing his best, for that and everything else, from the beginning. Like Lindelof and Cuse. So meta.

This is all just commentary by you, you aren't really refuting or supporting anything about the statement I made. That's simply the way they deal with people that get too close to the source (like that village in Across the Sea that got destroyed). There's really not much more to this very simple observation.

The worst the characters had to say about Jacob after that little campfire where he told them that he made their plane crash three years ago because he thought their lives were fucked up already and that Kate could totally be a candidate again because he just crossed her name off the list of monster-proof people on a whim (but not quite why their friends had to die while he was chilling on the beach or hiding in the bushes) was:

Dude, worse than Yoda? Harsh.

Uh...ok? Again, just more commentary. Not sure what your goal is by saying all of that...

 

[nomis]

Some of you guys are taking Erigu's posts way too personally. In no way shape or form is this guy a threat to your LOST posting experience. He's just one dude. ONE. He's a known factor; has been for over a year. You should know by now that he's not going anywhere any time soon.

 

[Erigu]

By care, I mean truly care.

And you replied "that's exactly what I didn't say" because of that nuance, really?
Not that it changes anything, really... I'd rather think fans aren't incapable of caring (or "truly caring", whatever) about criticism when it comes from someone who was never a fan. That sounds like an insulting generality to me, and I think it's a bit sad coming from someone who appears to be a fan himself/herself.

at the end of the day if you did not find any redeeming qualities in the show

It's the writing I'm criticizing, and you would know that if you had actually read my posts before trying to establish my profile (which actually ended up sounding like a cliché "hater" portrait). Even when I stated my reservations regarding the music, I made it clear I wasn't blaming the composer himself.
That being said, I don't think the show has nearly enough qualities to make up of the shittiness of its writing, so you won't see me talk about "redeeming qualities", no. At the end of the day, it's a mess, as far as I'm concerned.
(although I guess an argument could be made for the "so bad it's good" aspect, but I doubt that's what you had in mind)

It's impossible for you to have so much negative-passion about something that you've wasted this much time in your life talking about something that you hate.

There again, to me, it just sounds like you're talking about someone else. I'm picturing a straw man.

When I said "You are being offensive", I meant that I find using a contradictory opinion just to garner attention is offensive.

And what would you say about making all kinds of allegations regarding your interlocutor's intentions without even bothering to acknowledge what he's actually saying in the first place?
I see you completely sidestepped the Giacchino thing, for example. Class move.

There are several possibilities I can think of, but it's not important for me to pick one

Oh, you don't have to "pick" one as more likely than the others or anything, really. I was just interested in an example.
As far as we know, Barry and Richard were the only ones in contact with Jacob on the island, right (Dôgen didn't say anything about further meetings with Jacob)? That somehow limits the ways in which Ben could have learned that Jacob used to live in that cabin...

This looks like you might be trying to argue something? But it just looks like a sarcastic oversimplification!

Well, it's a summary. If something's terribly wrong with it, feel free to point it out.

As for what my argument was, I thought it was kinda obvious, but I was less than impressed by Ben's Emmy moment:
"It was all my fault -> I did it because of Jacob and Jacob was an ass -> Oh, and Widmore's fault, too, so he deserves to die as well"
Huh? Have we really made some progress, here? Ben said he was sorry at one point, yeah, but I'm not sure why: he doesn't appear to have seen the error of his ways or anything like that, in fact, he then betrayed and killed another guy over what happened to his daughter (another guy who didn't pull the trigger and wasn't even there).
Or maybe I shouldn't be thinking and just be swayed by the music and the performance (tears!)?

my opinion still stands btw

Could you elaborate a bit though? How did Ben redeem himself, according to you?

This is all just commentary by you, you aren't really refuting or supporting anything about the statement I made. That's simply the way they deal with people that get too close to the source

Indeed, you're stating what happened the show, and I'm commenting that it all sounds horribly contrived.

Again, just more commentary. Not sure what your goal is by saying all of that...

We were talking about how Jacob was being portrayed by the show after his first actual appearance.
Here's a guy who carries... a lot? ... most? .... virtually all? of the blame for all the drama and death on the show, and all the characters have to say about that after a good night's sleep is that the guy was "worse than Yoda". Huh.
I may be going on a limb, here, but I think the show wasn't really interested in portraying him in a negative light, at that point. Might also have something to do with all the subtle symbolism the show is known for (he's dressed in white! whereas his brother is dressed in black and evil!).

Although I guess it is noteworthy how Across the Sea had him beat the shit out of his brother and throw him into that cave, whereas Barry was on the contrary portrayed in a more sympathetic light... Of course, it would have been so much better had the show bothered to tell us how the characters went from there to the Jacob and Barry we know...
Lazy writers should probably take notes: "Simply switch the good and bad guys in your flashback, and people might just confuse that for complex characterization, even if you never bother justifying the switch!"

 

[Fry]

I bet Erigu would criticize Jackface as well.


You can't hate on that, bro.

 

[Deleted member 12837]

Well, it's a summary. If something's terribly wrong with it, feel free to point it out.

I did point it out. It's an oversimplification of 5 seasons worth of time spent with a character. It doesn't begin to describe or summarize his story and his journey.

If that's really all that you picked up from his presence on the show, then I don't anticipate being able to sway you otherwise. I certainly saw a lot more than that. Even if you did as well, you probably wouldn't agree or have the same reading of it as me anyway, and I wouldn't expect you to. I'd expect there to be many different feelings about Ben's character at the end. I felt like he redeemed himself, others might disagree and think he was and always will be a monster. I don't like stories where there isn't anything to discuss or debate. I think I stopped reading books like that in 7th grade.

If you could separate that particular point from your arguments about Lost having terrible writing, the writers being hacks, etc, I might be interested in actually discussing it.

As for what my argument was, I thought it was kinda obvious, but I was less than impressed by Ben's Emmy moment

Same here. I think I already mentioned this, but IMO his best acting by far was in Season 2-4.

Could you elaborate a bit though? How did Ben redeem himself, according to you?

Covered above.

I may be going on a limb, here, but I think the show wasn't really interested in portraying him in a negative light, at that point.

I think you are going out on a limb. The show did a pretty good job of convincing me he wasn't a symbol of "absolute good". That's how I saw it, and where else would I have drawn that opinion other than what I saw on screen?

 

[Erigu]

I did point it out. It's an oversimplification of 5 seasons worth of time spent with a character.

What? No, I was talking about his supposed "redemption" toward the end, there. So season 6 stuff, basically.

I felt like he redeemed himself

How? Surely you could elaborate a bit?
(I'm afraid I'm expecting some references to the show, here, not some vague "well, I personally felt he redeemed himself, and that's all there is to say on the matter")

Same here. I think I already mentioned this, but IMO his best acting by far was in Season 2-4.

Well, I was talking about the character, not Emerson... But yeah, that would be a handicap for the actor as well. Stuff like that is hard to sell.

I think you are going out on a limb. The show did a pretty good job of convincing me he wasn't a symbol of "absolute good".

I wouldn't go that far. But undoubtedly portrayed as a good guy.

That's how I saw it, and where else would I have drawn that opinion other than what I saw on screen?

There again, that would be a lot more convincing if you had some examples...

"I saw the show as a laughable mess, and where else would I have drawn that opinion other than what I saw on the screen?"
See? It doesn't quite work. You kinda expect some explanations, based on actual examples.

 

[nomis]

People replying to Erigu are worse than him.

.

I'm sorry for being an ass and not realizing how counter productive and hypocritical I was being. Lost-GAF deserves better, brothas.

 

[Erigu]

http://i.imgur.com/hHQDH.jpg[IMG][/QUOTE]
Class move #2. Well done.