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[Catalix]

Catalix the show makes it pretty clear that their is no great pure evil or pure goodness.

Jacob done some bad things for sure.

Well.... blader explains it better than me.

But that wasn't really the crux of my argument, whether Jacob was pure good or pure evil. Of course he's done both good and bad things, in fact, I prefer it that way. So that wasn't really my issue.

But since you bring up the whole dichotomy thing... we're informed that every human has a metaphorical scale within themselves, one that tips between light and darkness. It's not hard to figure out what side of the spectrum Jacob is supposed to fall on. The show is intent on leaving you with a heartwarming last impression of him. "Aww, he was a decent fellow after all. Let bygones be bygones. He tried, ya'll"

The show makes it clear that there is indeed pure good and pure evil in the LOST universe in some capacity. They are literal elements presented within the mythology (The Light/Smokey). I find the very existence of such things to be simplistic and off-putting. It's another concept they introduce in S6 that has detrimental ripple effects for everything that preceded it. That's just my personal take. S1-5 went out of their way to paint relatively nuanced shades of grey among this group of people. S6 tries to go for someting more mythic and epic in nature with a literal good vs. evil conflict, but it comes off as totally trite.

Yeah, I finally turned the Ignore Key.

If I somehow join your ignore list, that'd be a sad day, BB.

I guess some of my views on the show won't be popular, but I'm explaining myself the best I can.
I obviously love the show, but I gotta be real with my occasional grievances.

 

[Erigu]

But the thing is, you're placing such a grand importance on the mythological and scientific plot points and the holes within them when I'm saying perhaps the writers purposely create those holes to show that they aren't meant to be perceived as truths. I'll expand on it more when I'm home from work and not on my auto correcting phone that annoys me to no end with its "corrections".

You're going to have to expand on that a great deal indeed...

It's not hard to figure out what side of the spectrum Jacob is supposed to fall on. The show is intent on leaving you with a heartwarming last impression of him. "Aww, he was a decent fellow after all. Let bygones be bygones. He tried, ya'll"

The show isn't exactly subtle as to what you're supposed to think of the other characters either... And it gets nauseating.
Michael shoots Ana Lucia and Libby (the latter mostly accidentally) for the sake of his son? That's Bad.
Sawyer shoots an innocent and strangles a defenseless old man for the sake of vengeance? That's Okay.
Ben suddenly crying in one scene redeems him (so much in fact he gets to kill an extra guy after that: that one's on the house). Locke killing a woman he had never met in cold blood pisses those who were hoping she would help them get off the island at first, but then it's all forgotten. Kate murdering her "step"father in his sleep because she hated the guy's guts only serves as an explanation for her being on the run and never means more that. Nikki and Paulo sure were assholes though, and they only got what was coming for them.

 

[bubnbob]

Hate to interrupt this shit storm of a thread, but does anyone know if there is video of this year's Lost comic con panel?

edit: Sorry, thought you meant the video. The panel itself sounded pretty lame, Darlton didn't bother answering any questions about the show.

 

[Erigu]

does anyone know if there is video of this year's Lost comic con panel?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_r4Rg8SP4bY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMy9s18tgfA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8XftJ4tYfg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KE5cceK7FN0

 

[Catalix]

That's true, the morality rankings are kinda wacky. I guess a lot of pop fiction falls into that trap, though. The more charismatic a character is, the more justified their actions are perceived as being. A well known trope in soap operas, like when a convicted rapist ends up marrying their victim a few years later, just because he ends up being a wildly popular fan favorite.

For the most part, "hero" characters get a golden pass, as long as they don't betray one of their own. Sayid is in the clear, but sadly Michael can GTFO. You can't have him and Libby hugging it out in the church after all. It ruins the mood.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_r4Rg8SP4bY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMy9s18tgfA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8XftJ4tYfg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KE5cceK7FN0

Thanks!

 

[MoonsaultSlayer]

Erigu: I don't know your history with this thread or this show. Can you enlighten me so I can get to know who will be analysing my theory? A one time fan burned by a particular story arc? Never a fan and never able to grasp why fans exist? Someone not happy with the answers given?

Not trying to be sarcastic or condescending.

 

[thekad]

Erigu: I don't know your history with this thread or this show. Can you enlighten me so I can get to know who will be analysing my theory? A one time fan burned by a particular story arc? Never a fan and never able to grasp why fans exist? Someone not happy with the answers given?

Troll.

 

[Drealmcc0y]

For the most part, "hero" characters get a golden pass, as long as they don't betray one of their own. Sayid is in the clear, but sadly Michael can GTFO.

Its all a matter of choice.

Michael, could be in that church if he wanted too, as could Ben etc.

Michael chose to be a whisperer. He cant forgive himself.

 

[dave is ok]

Michael chose to be a whisperer. He cant forgive himself.

He doesn't seem too happy with his choice

 

[Catalix]

Its all a matter of choice.

Michael, could be in that church if he wanted too, as could Ben etc.

Michael chose to be a whisperer. He cant forgive himself.

As soon as I re-read my post, I knew you were gonna point that out lol

 

[Drealmcc0y]

He doesn't seem too happy with his choice

Well yeah, hes depressed as fuck about it

 

[Dragon]

Sayid was the worst character on the show. He fell in love with Shannon, the worst female on the show, and we had little idea why. He's abhorrently violent, he's tortured people and he sided with Flocke for most of season 6. So screw him and his neverending quest to fall in love with as many women as possible.

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

Detached from Jacob's believability as a character, that's definitely a worthy concept to explore.



Jacob was wrong, and his methods weren't logical at all. The hardships he put the characters through were not proportionate to the flaws that they initially dealt with (well, most of them, anyway). And on a few occasions, he directly facilitated those very same vices (handing James the pen to finish his revenge note, for example) Also, I got beef with this disingenuous gem:

JACOB: I'm not going to pick, Hugo. I want you to have the one thing that I was never given--a choice.

A "choice" that he manipulated them into choosing. He's groomed most of them without their consent over the course of their lives. And now - after a contrived, janky temporary resurrection - he waits until the last minute to drop some serious bombs. Keep in mind, absolutely nothing was preventing him from revealing these truths beforehand. He chose to be unnecessarily obtuse, making it 10x more difficult for everyone involved (including himself!). The end of the world is at stake. Choose now, or else!

If giving his candidates a choice was really one of his top priorities, wouldn't it be more sensible to visit each one of them off-Island and give them a proposition, similar to Dogen, or Hurley in the cab. Most of them never even remotely contracted to this hellish job interview in the first place. And when the time came, 3/4 of his final candidates didn't even want the goddam job. What the hell kind of tactics are these? He had no right, and the Losties should've definitely made a bigger deal about it. I don't like how the show continued to present him as a "misunderstood good guy", as if his hands were tied in the matter.

And that's exactly one of the things I love about the show. Believe me, I do! Tabula Rasa. The characters getting a second chance to "fix" themselves and each other is a main theme that carries a ton of weight.

But now I know that all of their genuine struggle was manufactured for an unworthy cause. My gripe is this: if you're going to hang your entire narrative around the concept of "A-man-with-a-plan," I would hope that the plan itself is pretty darn clever. Jacob's motivations are critical to the overall story's resonance. If his actions don't even make sense on a basic level, or his ideals don't pack an intellectual punch, then everything else in the story suffers.

In order for me to accept Jacob's methods, I have to believe that he's literally mentally handicapped. I'd be fine with that, and it's a convenient explanation, but LOST never led me to believe that he seriously suffered from such a condition. And being an emotionally stunted 2000 year old manchild is not really a compelling excuse for me; not after all the retarded shit the writers decided to pin on his shoulders. So I'm left with this broken character and a distractingly broken story. It stings!

if Jacob had come to Jack or Kate with a proposition like that he'd have been taken toa mental institution or laughed at. jacob needed jack to experience it for himself so that faith and belief in the light, for lack of a better term, could grow.

 

[Blader]

Catalix, I don't understand your argument at all. If you can accept the theme of "fucked up people get a second chance at repairing their lives," then where/how are you making the logic jump from that to "Jacob's fucking retarded!!! asdadbfnakfbf;dk!!"? How does the latter do anything to undermine the former?

But that wasn't really the crux of my argument, whether Jacob was pure good or pure evil. Of course he's done both good and bad things, in fact, I prefer it that way. So that wasn't really my issue.

But since you bring up the whole dichotomy thing... we're informed that every human has a metaphorical scale within themselves, one that tips between light and darkness. It's not hard to figure out what side of the spectrum Jacob is supposed to fall on. The show is intent on leaving you with a heartwarming last impression of him. "Aww, he was a decent fellow after all. Let bygones be bygones. He tried, ya'll"

I don't think that's really true. To be sure, Jacob is definitely more on the lighter side and MIB on the darker side.. But I disagree that the show tries to sell you on either one as absolute good or evil. Darlton did go out of their way to show that the core of the show's whole mythology is because Jacob fucked up. I don't think there's meant to be any heartwarming final impression of him, especially since his last appearance involves what's left of the Losties being pretty fucking pissed at him.

 

[Erigu]

That's true, the morality rankings are kinda wacky. I guess a lot of pop fiction falls into that trap, though.

And fortunately, most pop fiction doesn't pretend to carry a profound spiritual message... But then, there's creepy Lost.

For the most part, "hero" characters get a golden pass, as long as they don't betray one of their own. Sayid is in the clear, but sadly Michael can GTFO. You can't have him and Libby hugging it out in the church after all. It ruins the mood.

Let's hope Ana Lucia and Michael don't get in the same bus for the Magic Church!

Speaking of which, I loved how the show just went "Ana Lucia? Nah, she's not ready yet." You know, as opposed to how "ready" Kate and Sayid were when they broke them out of prison, or Charlie when they drugged him and put him in the trunk... The show sure was "unflagging" in its examination of the "community" theme!

Thanks!

Oh, don't thank me: it is the panel where they tell people that it wouldn't be "fair" to answer questions like "what the hell was up with that other outrigger?" or "what's with those rules preventing Ben and Widmore from killing each other?". Because, y'know, it would be all over the place, a bit in this interview, a bit in that Comic-Con panel...
What do you mean, they released a Lost Encyclopedia and that would have been a great opportunity to do all that? What do you mean, Lostpedia compiles the hell of all that shit anyway? What do you mean, they didn't have a problem with scattering bits and pieces here and there for years, what with all the fake websites, ARGs and extra videos?

I don't know your history with this thread or this show. Can you enlighten me so I can get to know who will be analysing my theory?

I don't know that it should matter, but there's a quick summary in there.
Beyond that... I really wouldn't have much of a problem with yet another terribly written show (hell, they can be entertaining), but this one garnered significant (and unwarranted) praise and is even hailed as the Best Show Ever by a quite a few people, and I find that alarming/depressing.
Oh, and the showrunners happen to be lying, pretentious, boneheaded assholes (most likely not the only ones in the industry, but then again the others don't spend nearly as much time in the spotlight). Fans love them.

if Jacob had come to Jack or Kate with a proposition like that he'd have been taken toa mental institution or laughed at.

Didn't happen with Dôgen though, did it?
And how do you take Jacob to a mental institution when the guy appears to be able to freaking teleport? Oh, that's right: that would be one way to prove he's not bullshitting!

jacob needed jack to experience it for himself so that faith and belief in the light, for lack of a better term, could grow.

Methinks things would have been pretty speedy with Locke. In fact, they were; it's just that Jacob apparently wasn't in a hurry to give his candidates the choice he was sooo intent to give them. Whoops, that got Locke killed in the meantime. Whoops.

I disagree that the show tries to sell you on either one as absolute good or evil.

That's not what we're arguing either (please correct me if I misrepresent your position, Catalix!). Just that Jacob definitely falls on the good side, according to the show (just like Jack, Kate, Sawyer, etc). The show even portrays him as wise, and the Losties barely protest when he explains he's responsible for everything that happened to them: his arguments are shown to be convincing when they're anything but. And the next day, Jack wins the game courtesy of his faith in the dude.

 

[Catalix]

if Jacob had come to Jack or Kate with a proposition like that he'd have been taken toa mental institution or laughed at. jacob needed jack to experience it for himself so that faith and belief in the light, for lack of a better term, could grow.

Under any normal circumstance, I suspect that Dogen would have thought the same thing as well. But Jacob came to him during a time of extreme vulnerability. In addition, Jacob essentially performed a miracle that added credence to his fantastical claims.

I'm sure Jacob could have done something custom tailored for each candidates' belief threshold, just enough to entice them. Like if Jacob were the one that personally healed Sarah in the hospital or something like that. And I'm more than confident that Locke would have followed Jacob anywhere if he offered to heal his spine and informed the budding bald BOSS of his future destiny.

But even then, if Jack, Kate or anyone still declined Jacob's transparent offer, the point is that it will clearly be their choice. Which is what he's supposedly all about, right? Otherwise, he shouldn't position himself as a paragon of free will.

 

[Catalix]

Catalix, I don't understand your argument at all. If you can accept the theme of "fucked up people get a second chance at repairing their lives," then where/how are you making the logic jump from that to "Jacob's fucking retarded!!! asdadbfnakfbf;dk!!"? How does the latter do anything to undermine the former?

Basically:

Jacob's intentions of correcting his mistake = Good premise. Great even!

The way he did it = Completely nonsensical behavior, therefore I can't take this character seriously. His series of actions don't even remotely add up. No relatively competent human being would do these things.

I don't think that's really true. To be sure, Jacob is definitely more on the lighter side and MIB on the darker side.. But I disagree that the show tries to sell you on either one as absolute good or evil. Darlton did go out of their way to show that the core of the show's whole mythology is because Jacob fucked up. I don't think there's meant to be any heartwarming final impression of him, especially since his last appearance involves what's left of the Losties being pretty fucking pissed at him.

They were pissed... at first. But Jacob pretty much succeeded in alleviating their initial fury. Afterwards, they were rather indifferent, almost even OKAY with his "you're all flawed" pep talk. And like Erigu said, the worst they had to say was, "That dude is worse than Yoda." They basically let him off the hook, and the writers are no longer interested in indicting their lovable douche and his many monumental crimes against humanity. They just confronted the man who screwed their lives over for a silly game, and they act like it's no big deal anymore. It's beyond weird.


EDIT-

That's not what we're arguing either (please correct me if I misrepresent your position, Catalix!). Just that Jacob definitely falls on the good side, according to the show (just like Jack, Kate, Sawyer, etc). The show even portrays him as wise, and the Losties barely protest when he explains he's responsible for everything that happened to them: his arguments are shown to be convincing when they're anything but. And the next day, Jack wins the game courtesy of his faith in the dude.

I really shoulda just read your post first. That about sums it up

 

[Drealmcc0y]

They just confronted the man who screwed their lives over for a silly game, and they act like it's no big deal anymore. It's beyond weird.

I musta missed the part where they think he messed their lives up.

"You were all alone, you were all looking for something you couldnt find out there, you needed this place as much as it needed you"

So they were probably likle "shit, this guy is right". I mean why wouldnt they.... they were much better people by the end of the show.

 

[BuggyDClown]

Honestly. Up until now Season 2 was always my favorite season of the series. I may have to put Season 6 at the top now. Each time I've gone back it's been better and better.

The less involved with ARG stuff, message boards, theories act the more you can see the show never pretended to be a lot of the things people complain about. It never acted like it was all going to be explained, let alone in detail. it was a show about letting go and learning to believe. It was tested by science and had layers of sic fi but was a fantasy series through and through.

Its absolutely fantastical, and I think the writers did more harm than good, because too many people made the show out to be something it was not, and those whom are let down or annoyed are at their own fault for that.

At the end of the day the show speaks for it's self. If you're unhappy with a direction it went in, it's more than likely because you never understood where it was headed all along.

Such a masterpiece.

Edit: added more and fixed some spelling errors. Sorry using a new keyboard been making lots of silly mistakes.

 

[Drealmcc0y]

Honestly. Up until now Season 2 was always my favorite season of the series. I may have to put Season 6 at the top now. Each times iVe gone back it's been better and better.

Good lad

 

[Erigu]

I really shoulda just read your post first. That about sums it up

I'm actually glad you didn't: you said the show just "let him off the hook", and that's exactly it... but not an expression that came to me (my English sucks).

they were probably likle "shit, this guy is right". I mean why wouldnt they....

Because it's all bullshit?

they were much better people by the end of the show.

You mean, those who were still standing? Yup, it was all worth it.
And even then, it's highly debatable... The show tries to portray them as better people, but when you think about it just a bit, they barely moved, actually.

 

[oatmeal]

(my English sucks).

No it doesn't.

 

[BuggyDClown]

Good lad

Yeah man. I always loved Season 6, but after Happily Ever After last night I think it might be the best season of all.

Also the series finale was perfect. I couldn't have asked for more. The talk between christian and jack was amazing. I think I watched that 50+ times by now. Not to mention the incredible music.

 

[Erigu]

At the end of the day the show speaks for it's self. If you're unhappy with a direction it went in, it's more than likely because you never understood where it was headed all along.
Such a masterpiece.

I'm almost expecting you to reveal yourself as a parody, at this point...

No it doesn't.

Thanks, but I really can't express myself as well as I'd like... More often that not, it's "okay, that's not it, but I can't think of a way to properly convey my thoughts, so that will have to do..." So frustrating.
(and all those mistakes... and all those ugly "last edited by Erigu" as a result... ugh...)

 

[Drealmcc0y]

Yeah man. I always loved Season 6, but after Happily Ever After last night I think it might be the best season of all.

Also the series finale was perfect. I couldn't have asked for more. The talk between christian and jack was amazing. I think I watched that 50+ times by now. Not to mention the incredible music.

Yeah I think Happily Ever After onwards is a really great run of episodes. Maybe the best. Can anybody name a better run of 8 straight episodes?

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

Under any normal circumstance, I suspect that Dogen would have thought the same thing as well. But Jacob came to him during a time of extreme vulnerability. In addition, Jacob essentially performed a miracle that added credence to his fantastical claims.

I'm sure Jacob could have done something custom tailored for each candidates' belief threshold, just enough to entice them. Like if Jacob were the one that personally healed Sarah in the hospital or something like that. And I'm more than confident that Locke would have followed Jacob anywhere if he offered to heal his spine and informed the budding bald BOSS of his future destiny.

But even then, if Jack, Kate or anyone still declined Jacob's transparent offer, the point is that it will clearly be their choice. Which is what he's supposedly all about, right? Otherwise, he shouldn't position himself as a paragon of free will.

Dogen was a different person. Jack wouldn't have believed in any of his powers. he HAD to feel it first hand. empirical, scientific, etc. Jacob knew that Jack probably had to be allowed to heal Sarah's spine because it made him more..... not confident but more willing to be a savior?

look, jacob is basically a god, and gods are cruel and work in misterious ways.
nobody wants to save the world, just themselves. you have to let them experience there is a greater purpose in their lives.

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

I'm almost expecting you to reveal yourself as a parody, at this point...


Thanks, but I really can't express myself as well as I'd like... More often that not, it's "okay, that's not it, but I can't think of a way to properly convey my thoughts, so that will have to do..." So frustrating.
(and all those mistakes... and all those ugly "last edited by Erigu" as a result... ugh...)

such irony....

 

[Catalix]

I musta missed the part where they think he messed their lives up.

"You were all alone, you were all looking for something you couldnt find out there, you needed this place as much as it needed you"

So they were probably likle "shit, this guy is right". I mean why wouldnt they.... they were much better people by the end of the show.

So you bought into Jacob's BS, too? He essentially diverts the blame back on them. "You guys wanted this. No, you NEEDED this!" But no one really asked you, Jacob, especially the ones who suffered unsavory deaths. What gave Jacob the right to decide for them. Freewill, huh?

He directly facilitated this entire mess. Brought them to the island. Manipulated their path in life for years, even before they got to the island. Used them as pawns in a life or death game, without their consent.

And the most offensive part is, he could have easily prevented most of this tragedy, but deliberately chose not to. But he's wise, and you shouldn't question his screwed up methods. Jacob works in mysterious ways.

Thanks, but I really can't express myself as well as I'd like... More often that not, it's "okay, that's not it, but I can't think of a way to properly convey my thoughts, so that will have to do..." So frustrating.
(and all those mistakes... and all those ugly "last edited by Erigu" as a result... ugh...)

Ha, no kidding? Would've never guessed. I feel you though, I'm always second guessing myself. I'm constantly thinking "Does what I'm saying even make sense?" All I can do is shrug it off and hope for the best :lol

 

[Erigu]

look, jacob is basically a god, and gods are cruel and work in misterious ways.

That's as much of a cop out on the show as it is for actual religions.

 

[BuggyDClown]

Yeah I think Happily Ever After onwards is a really great run of episodes. Maybe the best. Can anybody name a better run of 8 straight episodes?

No. Which is why Im on this line of thinking now. I stopped after that episode, so my rematch is drawing ever closer to the finale. Can not wait for that. Making sure to watch that on it's own day though.

 

[BuggyDClown]

such irony....

I'm assuming that was directed towards me. I have him on ignore, so I guess that means he can still see my posts.

In any case I freakin love LOST. Every rematch has made me love it even more. I know it absolutely is somewhat of an obsession at this point, but common it's so good.

Sorry that some people hate the ending. I don't think they could have done a better job. I absolutely don't believe in anything religious, or dealing with the afterlife act and I still loved the way it ended. The whole concept and payoff behind it was beautiful. Like I sid, that final talk between christian and jack, and the moments of the end with that wonderful music playing couldn't have been a better way to make the previous 6 years come to a close.

 

[oatmeal]

Every rematch has made me love it even more. I know it absolutely is somewhat of an obsession at this point, but common it's so good.

I know this was a slip of the finger, but I like it.

I'm going to go REMATCH LOST.

Awesome.

 

[BuggyDClown]

I know this was a slip of the finger, but I like it.

I'm going to go REMATCH LOST.

Awesome.

Ahh, autocorrect. Damnit. Haha I have to go in and change that just about every time I type it. I suppose it won't happen if I type re-watch. I'll just have to do that.

Oh btw anyone interested in my LOST power hour I'm finishing up. It's like a Power hour playlist but with clips. My 60 top 1min moments of LOST, take a shot of beer at each change of the clips. It takes you from the beginning to the end of the series.

I suppose I can upload it online somewhere when it's done.

 

[Catalix]

Dogen was a different person. Jack wouldn't have believed in any of his powers. he HAD to feel it first hand. empirical, scientific, etc. Jacob knew that Jack probably had to be allowed to heal Sarah's spine because it made him more..... not confident but more willing to be a savior?

look, jacob is basically a god, and gods are cruel and work in misterious ways.
nobody wants to save the world, just themselves. you have to let them experience there is a greater purpose in their lives.

I guess that's gonna always be my personal hang up. I'm not really down with that philosophy in real life either. It's a convenient excuse.

Hear me out. Jacob can be as elusive and random as he wants. Just don't try and sell me on the idea that he's a wise or respectable individual, like the show tried it's damnest to do (despite evidence to the contrary.) The way they wrote him, I don't think he's worthy of much sympathy. There's a foundation for something great with his character, but the execution is all kinds of clumsy.

I really don't think people are grasping the severity of Jacob's blunders. Really put yourself in various characters' shoes (and not just the triumphant heroes like Jack). How would you really feel if you learned the truth of Jacob's actions, considering the trauma you went through, and that he could've prevented it. How can anyone be complicit with this moron? :/

 

[Drealmcc0y]

So you bought into Jacob's BS, too? He essentially diverts the blame back on them. "You guys wanted this. No, you NEEDED this!" But no one really asked you, Jacob, especially the ones who suffered unsavory deaths. What gave Jacob the right to decide for them. Freewill, huh?

He directly facilitated this entire mess. Brought them to the island. Manipulated their path in life for years, even before they got to the island. Used them as pawns in a life or death game, without their consent.

And the most offensive part is, he could have easily prevented most of this tragedy, but deliberately chose not to. But he's wise, and you shouldn't question his screwed up methods. Jacob works in mysterious ways.

Dude I believe in what I say, but I also agree that Jacob is one fucked up puppy.

Its not suprising though when we found out what his life was.

Also I dont think of Jacob as a normal human being. I see him more as an interesting person, than to something I can relate too.

 

[Dead]

edit: poo. late

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

I'm assuming that was directed towards me. I have him on ignore, so I guess that means he can still see my posts.

In any case I freakin love LOST. Every rematch has made me love it even more. I know it absolutely is somewhat of an obsession at this point, but common it's so good.

Sorry that some people hate the ending. I don't think they could have done a better job. I absolutely don't believe in anything religious, or dealing with the afterlife act and I still loved the way it ended. The whole concept and payoff behind it was beautiful. Like I sid, that final talk between christian and jack, and the moments of the end with that wonderful music playing couldn't have been a better way to make the previous 6 years come to a close.

no, I meant that for erigu.

 

[MoonsaultSlayer]

Well, Erigu. Based on my quick glimpse into your passionate disliking of Lost, no one here will ever peruade you to like it or even neutralize your opinion from what I can tell. No sane man would ever dedicate as much time and energy to the cause of trashing a form of entertainment, the people behind it and those who enjoy it as much as you.

But it was your remarks that made me pop in with my own 2 cents so I'll give you the oppurtunity to see my view of the show. I can already picture your predictable comments but you'll crack your knuckles, adjust your spectacles and start seperating my post with little quibbles about each passage anyway, so I'm all for it.

To start off, it may be easy to say that I'm giving the writers too much credit. I'm not here to praise the writers as geniuses but I'm at least going to acknowledge their efforts and collective talent as I don't believe they are as incompetent as you make them out to be. Just because much of the show may not have been planned from the beginning or doesn't seem to make sense, doesn't mean it isn't meant to be there. Have you ever created a story in your head? Does it unfold in a straight line? No. When I envision a story, I brainstorm key points and then go back and focus on how I get there. After sharing parts of the story with someone, they find a metaphor or underlying statement I never thought of... and it makes so much sense. So I go back and expand on it. That's what it's like creating this series. They introduce Ben, fall in love with his character and expand on him. The audience finds meaning and they expand on it. This isn't flawed design. I feel it's very creative and refreshing.

Now to my plot analysis: So many people have been disappointed with the answers to many of the more interesting mysteries. Many have been upset by new mysteries that go too far. I'd like to point out Occum's razor and point to the simplest conclusion... There's only one mystery: Why is crazy shit happening?

Forget that there are smoke monsters, electro-magnetic fields, time skipping islands, buried A-bombs, polar bears, Dharma stations, Egyptian ruins, strange visions and apparitions and so on and so forth. All of these things aren't seperate mysteries or plot points. They're all part of the snowball getting bigger and bigger as the plot moves forward. What we do know is that somewhere, somehow, shit is getting weird and there was a clue about the "magic box". It may have been shrugged off in the show but I believe it's still an important subject.

Did Walt's imagination combined with his engagement in Hurley's comic spawn polar bears? Did a zoologist create a reason or logic as to why polar bears were there? Did Locke create a deprived leadership role for himself to give his life reason and punishment? Yes, I believe all these things and more. I call it "the fringe". Because these subplots of mysterious events that all of these characters encounter with varying results are loose threads hanging from the main plot: the characters.

The more personal and dramatic stories of each individual on the show are so tightly woven and interconnected which is why the creators have stated numerous times that the show isn't about the mysteries, but the people. But dangling from this tightly woven cloth that is the main focus of the the plot is "the fringe". The fringe is, like I said, the loose ends that each character encounters that may twist, tangle and overlap one another, but ultimately just end on their own. Numerous characters argue or struggle over friendship, loyalty, medicine, food, shelter, leadership etc and all of these things are ironed out and dealt with with a human touch and ultimately tied up. But throw in a smoke monster and each character has their own interpretation. Is it mechanical? Is it mythical? Is it judgemental? Is it beautiful? Is it an obsticle in my path? It was each of those things to seperate people. The "magic box" started creating reasons and answers and piled on new mysteries to each characters encounters.

None of any of this whole show was a new mystery. It was all part of the only mystery I stated earlier and each character's input added to it as their threads mingle with one another. We see Jack get his hero ending, in touch with his father and some sort of redemption because that's what HE needed. This wasn't the end of the show, it was the end of that character's fringe thread. Nothing more, nothing less.

Edit: My son woke up so I felt rushed. Any questions or problems and I'll expand on it when I can.

 

[Catalix]

Dude I believe in what I say, but I also agree that Jacob is one fucked up puppy.

Its not suprising though when we found out what his life was.

Also I dont think of Jacob as a normal human being. I see him more as an interesting person, than to something I can relate too.

Well at least that's a relief I did kinda think you were cool with advocating his more heinous transgressions. Just wish the Losties made it a point themselves to further denounce the utter failures of his tenure as guardian. I thought it would've been cool and cathartic if they were more defiant toward him. Y'know, really express how senseless his actions were and how violated they felt. The writers should have just embraced the notion that Jacob needed to be put in his place as the unmitigated fuck-up that he was.

If the writers really wanted to make Jacob a genuinely deep and sympathetic figure, they just should have written him with more consistency and iron-clad logic; give him stronger motivations fueled by thought-provoking ideals. But the Jacob we got is a walking, talking series of plot holes. It's obvious the writers made him the ultimate scapegoat for all of their story's shortcomings. His glaring character discrepancies are too much for me to handle. But I just gotta roll with it, because it's canon and all...

 

[JoJoShabadoo]

So I was watching Sundown and wow, I almost forgot how embarrassingly bad season 6 is. The army marching behind Locke like something is actually going to happen... If I recall correctly, later in the season, after 10 episodes of twiddling their thumbs, they "scatter into the jungle" after the mortar blasts. And what did Locke need them for anyways, if all he had to do was deactivate the pylons, leaving him free to march against bullets and snap the necks of Widmore's army? What a piece of shit show. No wonder Erigu is still here.

 

[Blader]

Basically:

Jacob's intentions of correcting his mistake = Good premise. Great even!

The way he did it = Completely nonsensical behavior, therefore I can't take this character seriously. His series of actions don't even remotely add up. No relatively competent human being would do these things.


They were pissed... at first. But Jacob pretty much succeeded in alleviating their initial fury. Afterwards, they were rather indifferent, almost even OKAY with his "you're all flawed" pep talk. And like Erigu said, the worst they had to say was, "That dude is worse than Yoda." They basically let him off the hook, and the writers are no longer interested in indicting their lovable douche and his many monumental crimes against humanity. They just confronted the man who screwed their lives over for a silly game, and they act like it's no big deal anymore. It's beyond weird.

Because he's not wrong. What are they going to say, no they weren't flawed? That they were living the dream before crashing on the island? They weren't happy, they were very troubled, and being brought to the island allowed them to change that.

As for Jacob's methods, he has an optimistic view of humanity. He believes in the best of people, he believes that they're capable of good and self-improvement, and believes that his brother is not beyond saving -- and that exposing him to this more humanistic ideology will get his brother to calm the fuck down.

 

[Solo]

I'd be curious to see how the show would have gone if they hadn't moved the island/done time travel/purgatory, and hadn't killed Locke off. Basically everything from the last few minutes of S4 onwards. Thats where the show went off on an unrecoverable tangent for me. They had me hook, line and sinker for 3.99 seasons.

They should never have introduced Jacob or MIB.

 

[oatmeal]

(and all those mistakes... and all those ugly "last edited by Erigu" as a result... ugh...)

So basically your initial post is like the show LOST?

But you have the option of going back and fixing it, whereas they just changed things to fit their ever-evolving ideas.

 

[MoonsaultSlayer]

So basically your initial post is like the show LOST?

But you have the option of going back and fixing it, whereas they just changed things to fit their ever-evolving ideas.

The characters themselves all had tight storylines when you take away the mysterious happenings. THAT is the main focus of the show. The "ever-evolving ideas" were just the mysteries that had nothing to do with anything accept to be weird to develop the subplots of the show. The subplots being the manifestations of each of their psyche and interpretaions of and input into "the magic box".

 

[Erigu]

Ha, no kidding? Would've never guessed. I feel you though, I'm always second guessing myself. I'm constantly thinking "Does what I'm saying even make sense?" All I can do is shrug it off and hope for the best :lol

*fistbump*

I'll give you the oppurtunity to see my view of the show. I can already picture your predictable comments but you'll crack your knuckles, adjust your spectacles and start seperating my post with little quibbles about each passage anyway, so I'm all for it.

I appreciate that.

When I envision a story, I brainstorm key points and then go back and focus on how I get there. After sharing parts of the story with someone, they find a metaphor or underlying statement I never thought of... and it makes so much sense. So I go back and expand on it.

Writing as an organic process? Sure, I'm cool with that.

When it comes to Lost though...

1) Since the beginning, the writers have claimed they always knew what was up with their mysteries when they introduced them, be it the smoke monster, the skeletons, etc.
And I believe it's blatantly obvious that was complete bullshit. Bullshit they apparently felt was necessary to keep viewers tuned, bullshit they apparently thought was worth defending even if it meant making more shit up in order to blame others for their own fuck-ups (again, Rebecca Mader... not the first time I bring that one up, I know, but I kinda wonder what hardcore Lost fans have to say about that, and I have still to hear anything from people in this topic).

2) You said "... and it makes so much sense", and yeah, at the end of the day, that's what matters most, right? A masterpiece by a lying scumbag would still be a masterpiece, after all.
Does Lost make sense, in the end?
I'm not even just talking about the "mythology", here... Do the character arcs make sense? And what about the themes the show pretends to be examining?

That's what it's like creating this series. They introduce Ben, fall in love with his character and expand on him. The audience finds meaning and they expand on it. This isn't flawed design. I feel it's very creative and refreshing.

It's actually standard fare for TV shows.
And again, the end result wasn't exactly... Hey, since you brought that up: what about that Ben? Were you satisfied with his character arc? Could you tell us how/when he supposedly redeemed himself, in the end?

throw in a smoke monster and each character has their own interpretation. Is it mechanical? Is it mythical? Is it judgemental? Is it beautiful? Is it an obsticle in my path? It was each of those things to seperate people. The "magic box" started creating reasons and answers and piled on new mysteries to each characters encounters.

None of any of this whole show was a new mystery. It was all part of the only mystery I stated earlier and each character's input added to it as their threads mingle with one another. We see Jack get his hero ending, in touch with his father and some sort of redemption because that's what HE needed. This wasn't the end of the show, it was the end of that character's fringe thread. Nothing more, nothing less.

You probably saw that one coming, but I don't find that convincing in the slightest...

You seem to be arguing (please correct me if I didn't get that right) that all of the supernatural stuff on the show only existed for the characters to reach some kind of personal closure or redemption. That it could be all seen as one plot device, and it's perfectly fine that way. And the contradictions? Well, that's because there's a bunch of different characters, so you could say everything is true at once, just not for everybody, or some shit like that! *goes to play with / bury his Schrödinger cat*

That would be a lot more convincing if you could actually interpret the entire show that way (seems like it would be quite the challenge... did Eko need to be killed by that big hand made of smoke, in the end? did Kate need to see that horse? that helped her? somehow?).
Or if we were talking about, say, a David Lynch work or a Silent Hill game. But the tone Lost set from the word go was quite different. It never felt like a fevered dream or anything like that at all (nor was it sold as one: Lindelof even once claimed the show was "firmly ensconced in the world of science fact"... heh).
And of course, that would be a whole lot of particularly messy, contradictory and thus overall confusing fluff, if the goal was just to have characters overcome personal issues in the end. Even if the show were successful concerning that last part (and I find it hard to argue it was), it certainly wouldn't be the most efficient way to go at it, for a writer, far from it...

Like I said earlier, it seems you're merely using the presence of supernatural / fantastical elements on the show as a convenient excuse for... well, anything, there.

So I was watching Sundown and wow, I almost forgot how embarrassingly bad season 6 is. The army marching behind Locke like something is actually going to happen... If I recall correctly, later in the season, after 10 episodes of twiddling their thumbs, they "scatter into the jungle" after the mortar blasts.

Yup, despite all the ominous foreboding, the "Barry is recruiting!" subplot only served to pad the season out, apparently...
I mean, it's not like they had a lot of stuff to cover in that final season anyway, right? In fact, there you go: take this "Sun hits her head and forgets how to speak English" subplot: it's on the house!

I also liked how it gave us more classic "Lost speech":

LOCKE: Alright everybody, listen up. Come on in, gather round. I know that everyone is tired. It was a... a long and traumatic night for all of us. And you all have got a lot of questions, I know. And I will make myself available to answer them. But right now we need to keep moving. We have to take advantage of the daylight.

We never got to hear the promised answers, sadly enough. Maybe the extras did at the end of the day though, I dunno? Or were they told that they "should take some rest because they still have a long way ahead of them tomorrow"? (this shit writes itself!)
And where the fuck were they going anyway? The Ajira plane? Was that really so urgent they couldn't spare a few minutes to explain anything?

Oh, I know, I know! I can solve a whole bunch of issues with the show in one fell swoop and just a few minutes of footage!

RICHARD: I never want to die. I want to live forever.
JACOB: Now that... I can do.
RICHARD: Wow, really? Thank you! You know, for a second there, I was wondering how I was going to help those people against that monster, but I didn't know you could make me immortal. Now I guess I could at least try to fight it and...
JACOB: Wait... Wait. I wouldn't try that if I were you. I made you immortal. Not invulnerable. He can kill you.
RICHARD: Well, that... That's too bad. Now, how am I supposed to... Wait. So I can still die after all? Because, like I said, I really don't want to.
JACOB: Yes. Please be careful.
RICHARD: Well, I generally am, but I'm not entirely confident I won't break my neck or something...
JACOB: You could. Not on purpose though.
RICHARD: What?
JACOB: You can't kill yourself.
RICHARD: What? I mean, I guess I'm fine with that... but why not? Why did you make it so? I thought you valued free will? How did you get that from what I asked? And how does that even work anyway?
JACOB: ... Man, it's not going to be like that everyday from now on, is it? I got used to the quiet, after a few centuries of getting my guests slaughtered before I could even meet them...
RICHARD: But I'd just like to understand!
JACOB: My mother used to say... Oh, you know what? Fuck it: I just made it a rule people can't ask follow-up questions on this island.
RICHARD: .........?!
JACOB: Indeed.

And what did Locke need them for anyways, if all he had to do was deactivate the pylons, leaving him free to march against bullets and snap the necks of Widmore's army?

Did he even need them for that? After all, that fence was as much of an obstacle for human beings as it was for him. So I don't know who of Barry and Sayid deactivated that fence, in the end, nor how exactly... but I see no reason to believe Sayid was any more qualified for that than Barry. In fact, Barry was also impervious to bullets, something that could come in handy for such a task.

What a piece of shit show. No wonder Erigu is still here.

So much material.

they were living the dream before crashing on the island?

How was Sayid doing, when Jacob met him?

So basically your initial post is like the show LOST?

Good thing I don't get paid for this shit, huh?
Then again, I still do my best to fix all that... Doesn't take me all that long either, does it? You'd think that would still all be part of the "writing" phase, for those guys...

But you have the option of going back and fixing it, whereas they just changed things to fit their ever-evolving ideas.

(and it made no fucking sense in the end, so victoly!)
Wouldn't have been too hard to, say, go back and change the date of Richard's flashback so it would fit with what had been said earlier about the last journey of the Black Rock, for the video release. Did they?
(then again, it would have been natural, easy and fast to check that shit in the first place... using Lostpedia, it should take anybody a couple of minutes tops...)

The characters themselves all had tight storylines when you take away the mysterious happenings.

Nope, the character arcs were a mess as well (Jack).

 

[BuggyDClown]

no, I meant that for erigu.

THe wrote you had for Erigu, since I was guessing it was a response to me. I know you didn't direct it to me.

So I was watching Sundown and wow, I almost forgot how embarrassingly bad season 6 is. The army marching behind Locke like something is actually going to happen... If I recall correctly, later in the season, after 10 episodes of twiddling their thumbs, they "scatter into the jungle" after the mortar blasts. And what did Locke need them for anyways, if all he had to do was deactivate the pylons, leaving him free to march against bullets and snap the necks of Widmore's army? What a piece of shit show. No wonder Erigu is still here.

I thought it was pretty obvious. The man in black had to continue to portray this idea of leadership. He had to continue to make them believe he was waging a war against all of those whom had lied to them and manipulated them. It was the last stage of his 6 season long con he started the day the plane crashed.
against
It was him showing the candidates, "hey I just want all of this to end. These people want to be free and live on the island, and I want to leave." Thats what he was saying. What better way for him to do that then continue this idea of full disclosure, telling them everything upfront to make them actually believe him. He couldn't have what he wanted unless he got them to believe, and they've been told long enough to have faith, so he was getting them in line through the discredit of others.

Season 6 is magnificant.

 

[Fry]

I'd be curious to see how the show would have gone if they hadn't moved the island/done time travel/purgatory, and hadn't killed Locke off. Basically everything from the last few minutes of S4 onwards. Thats where the show went off on an unrecoverable tangent for me. They had me hook, line and sinker for 3.99 seasons.

Yep. The show could have been SO much better.

First four seasons are untouchable for me. I even enjoy watching Fire + Water.

 

[Erigu]

The man in black had to continue to portray this idea of leadership. He had to continue to make them believe he was waging a war against all of those whom had lied to them and manipulated them.

A war against whom? Jacob? Dead. Widmore? Showed up during season 6, but the characters didn't know about that yet at the time.
And he's an invulnerable smoke monster anyway, so what was he "recruiting" for? What were those characters even talking about when they used that term? They made it seem like they knew something we didn't, but in the end...

It was the last stage of his 6 season long con he started the day the plane crashed.

A stupidly contrived plan based on a stupid loophole.
A rudimentary booby trap would have done the deed. No need to convince anybody of anything (especially with the added challenge of trying to seem nice after you just slaughtered everybody in that one temple: "oh, yeah, by the way: I'm the smoke monster! I believe we've met a couple of times!").

 

[MoonsaultSlayer]

You link to your Jack post and all i have to say is character flaws. He's made the hero against his will. Not through force or violence but he takes it anyway. Any mistake, lack of emotion or flawed idea is expected by me. Were you expecting flat characters? Jack was supposed to be the knight in shining armor? He himself used the magic box to make himself out to be the great leader by saving his friends.

How do I feel about Ben, you ask? Just like every other character, he got from the island everything he needed to get him to the end of his fringe. But we don't necessarily know what that entails. We see him overlapped in Jack's ending left alone outside the church, but it isnt his ending.

 

[JoJoShabadoo]

You'd think the writers could have at least made an effort to hide the fact that they didn't know jack shit. Like when Faraday returns towards the end of season 5 (in the middle of the night, since Chang was up reading to his son while his wife was washing the dishes), he says to Jack "My mother was wrong, you shouldn't have come back"

LOST

Then the next scene, it's daylight and Jack says "Wait, Faraday, what do you mean your mother was wrong?" and he says "I can't explain right now, I'll tell you when I get back" right before conveniently dying.

And speaking of Chang, what's up with the intro to season 5? Daniel is sneaking around in the Orchid station Hitman style, in disguise and everything. He bumps into Chang hiding his face while saying "Sorry sir" and yet, 15 episodes later, in the continuation of the scene, after bumping into Chang, he puts the object he hid his face with down and goes up to Chang and says "Excuse me, Mr. Chang?"

How do I feel about Ben, you ask? Just like every other character, he got from the island everything he needed to get him to the end of his fringe. But we don't necessarily know what that entails. We see him overlapped in Jack's ending left alone outside the church, but it isnt his ending.

Ben's character lost all credibility the moment the writers decided to make him "lose his innocence" by having Sayid shoot him. Masterful character development, right? Sayid shot Ben because he's evil, but Ben is evil because Sayid shot him. Great!