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[speculawyer]

The government didn't shut down fishing and tourism (I guess those are shut down naturally.)
And those 33 rigs are jobs for who knows how many people.
I'm as pissed off about the oil spill as anyone, but at the same time I can sympathize with the guys who are being furloughed because of the govt. ban.

Actually, they did shut down fishing.

 

[speculawyer]

The government didn't shut down fishing and tourism (I guess those are shut down naturally.)
And those 33 rigs are jobs for who knows how many people.
I'm as pissed off about the oil spill as anyone, but at the same time I can sympathize with the guys who are being furloughed because of the govt. ban.

Actually, they did shut down fishing.

And just because they put a moratorium on for now, that doesn't mean they instantly fire everyone. Things still need maintenance, planning, etc.

 

[The Technomancer]

Don't even get me started on wind farms. There was a proposal to build a bunch of turbines out in the lake a few years back (I live on the shores of Lake Michigan) and it got voted down because a bunch of rich dudes in their lakefront condos didn't want turbines that would have been half an inch tall on the horizon "cluttering up the view".
Those fuckers.

 

[eznark]

Don't even get me started on wind farms. There was a proposal to build a bunch of turbines out in the lake a few years back (I live on the shores of Lake Michigan) and it got voted down because a bunch of rich dudes in their lakefront condos didn't want turbines that would have been half an inch tall on the horizon "cluttering up the view".
Those fuckers.

Teddy Kennedy didn't just kill women, he also killed Massachusetts wind farms.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

Wrong lessons learned all around again.

The US can shit talk oil companies all they want to but they still run to buy their products like filthy whores.

You are too.

 

[teh_pwn]

Why use coal, gas or nuclear when you can go wind and solar?

Wind has become suprisingly affordable while we weren't looking... but energy people knows whats up; because it's now the fastest growing form of alternative power in the world.

The main con is that all the costs of wind are upfront; building it takes all the effort, after that it's 20-25 years of free energy.

Some areas aren't as good as others, but if all the usable land area was utilized (defined modestly as 11% of the world's land surface occupied by 6 1.5MW Wind turbines per square kilometer), we'd have 5 times more power than the entire planet requires... even after taking into account the relatively low capacity rate of wind power (i.e. it only generates 20-30% of the rated power of the turbines over the course of a year or so).

Cost wise it's comparable to coal and gas in per kw/h terms.

Once you account for the damage of externalities, wind is ahead by miles.

And the energy payback period for wind is about 6-30 months (i.e. it takes 6-30 months of wind energy to manufacture a wind turbine), better than coal or gas at 9-12 months. (6 months is avg period, upto 30 for shittier locations).

Wind and solar only works in certain areas.

Well controlled nuclear fission gives a lot of power anywhere. Nuclear fusion, once it's designed, could be both safer, higher output, and clearer than other forms of power.

 

[Big-ass Ramp]

I guess these guys never heard that "timing is everything in politics."

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Teddy Kennedy didn't just kill women, he also killed Massachusetts wind farms.

He did not kill women, it's was that damn lake demon bitch from

Spoiler

Alan Wake

. :lol

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Wind and solar only works in certain areas.

Well controlled nuclear fission gives a lot of power anywhere. Nuclear fusion, once it's designed, could be both safer, higher output, and clearer than other forms of power.

And yet we can't proceed because of ignorance and fear preventing us from trying to develop and deploy it.

 

[RiskyChris]

And yet we can't proceed because of ignorance and fear preventing us from trying to develop and deploy it.

I'm pretty sure there's a free market explanation for why we can't proceed.

 

[Stinkles]

Teddy Kennedy didn't just kill women, he also killed Massachusetts wind farms.

Laura Bush.

And serious question, how did you get that tag? That really is brutally unfair unless you like, threatened to kill a Jew.

 

[eznark]

I'm pretty sure there's a free market explanation for why we can't proceed.

The massive incoming tax hike on venture capitalists isn't going to help spur innovation in alternative energies, that is for sure.

Laura Bush didn't kill any wind farms.

 

[teh_pwn]

And yet we can't proceed because of ignorance and fear preventing us from trying to develop and deploy it.

Yep, and so we keep burning coal. I don't understand the green movement because of this. We need nuclear fusion, and until we have it fission, to provide the bulk of clean power. For future fuel cell technologies, and to power biofuel farms (with tanks & bacteria, not corn).

This is 99% of the problem. Worrying about grocery bags, and conserving energy by reducing your quality of life has made the green movement into a religion rather than an environmentalist movement.

 

[teh_pwn]

I'm pretty sure there's a free market explanation for why we can't proceed.

I'd prefer the government to spend a trillion dollars subsidizing bacteria biofuel farms, fission plants, where sensible wind/solar, and funding fusion research. Instead they're spending the money on corn, soy, wars, and bailing out an aristocracy of banks and corporations.

The problem isn't too much government or too little. It's incompetent and broken government and society.

 

[Rentahamster]

I'm pretty sure there's a free market explanation for why we can't proceed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-nuclear_movement

 

[Stinkles]

The massive incoming tax hike on venture capitalists isn't going to help spur innovation in alternative energies, that is for sure.

Laura Bush didn't kill any wind farms.

Are you talking about the carried interest rate? So you're worried that investors would, in a worst case scenario, at the highest rate possible, have to pay the same tax on income as I do?

 

[Eteric Rice]

Makes me wish we had free energy.

Then again, we all know the oil companies would never let that happen.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

^ if the scientific community can create it, Big Oil won't have a choice.

Wrong lessons learned all around again.

while I'd like to agree, you have to be able to empathize to deal with the complexity of this crisis.

you can't just say, "hey you guys need to suck it up for say...6 months without the level of pay you've come accustomed to and tailored your financial situation around.

their bills won't magically be put on moratorium while the government and the entirety of the oil industry operating in the Gulf painstakingly reviewed, updates, and enhances their safety protocol and procedures, then inspects.

so what's really the solution? because putting 10,000 high-paying jobs on the shelf for months is probably not the answer either, nor is forcing us to buy more oil from nations that hate the West (which is what happens if you reduce american oil production...we just buy more from elsewhere. not like our usage is shrinking!)

Despite hippy pleas to the contrary.

so what's a real solution? keep the rest of the rigs drilling. formulate a council/board/steering committee featuring representatives from Big Oil, the government, the Army Corps of Engineers, and the scientific community to review and redevelop our drilling safety protocol. research and come back in 120-180 days with findings, formulate conclusions. write policy based on those conclusions and begin enforcement within 12 months. that will give Big Oil time to understand, internalize and implement any necessary changes to their rigs. 1 year later, any rig found to be in violation of a single element of the new policy will be shutdown in 30 days if those remaining issues are not resolved.

thoughts?

 

[eznark]

Are you talking about the carried interest rate? So you're worried that investors would, in a worst case scenario, at the highest rate possible, have to pay the same tax on income as I do?

Tangentially. I'm more concerned that the decreased marginal return will funnel money into mid-to-late stage opportunities and leave the real breakthrough technologies high and dry. University endowments (a big player in pre-natal stage idea incubation) are generally cut and dry in terms of make or break ROI, and decreasing the margins will put most early-stagers on the wrong end of that equation.

Hindering innovation is stupid, no matter the means.

 

[The Technomancer]

Wind and solar only works in certain areas.

Well controlled nuclear fission gives a lot of power anywhere. Nuclear fusion, once it's designed, could be both safer, higher output, and clearer than other forms of power.

Yeah, certain areas, like one of the biggest lakes in the world. *still rather angry*

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Yep, and so we keep burning coal. I don't understand the green movement because of this. We need nuclear fusion, and until we have it fission, to provide the bulk of clean power. For future fuel cell technologies, and to power biofuel farms (with tanks & bacteria, not corn).

Yeah, one of my friends who is the biggest liberal I know and a physicist, HATES Grenpeace and Anti-Nuclear Movement people. They are just so invested in their position and how it relates to their funding that they won't pull their head out of their ass. Think of all the jobs new nuclear power planets would provide, high tech as hell jobs, how much new research it would generate into fission.

Listening to the Anti-Nuclear movement is just an epic Picardian SMH.

This is 99% of the problem. Worrying about grocery bags, and conserving energy by reducing your quality of life has made the green movement into a religion rather than an environmentalist movement.

You sound like my wife. She used to deeply care about the environment and doing things to help to the Green movement and it's Hollywood look at me stupidity just ruined environmentalism. Being green is about as overused and oversimple as Just Say No. People care more about saying and "showing they're green" than doing practical things.

 

[Rentahamster]

Being green is about as overused and oversimple as Just Say No. People care more about saying and "showing they're green" than doing practical things.

I was gonna post a youtube to a clip of NBC's Sunday Night Football shutting off their lights for a halftime, but somehow that video has disappeared from the interwebs.

I guess this will have to do: http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/27755217/

 

[Earthstrike]

Just because a person is against nuclear fission does not mean they are against nuclear fusion. Most "liberals" I talk to in Canada are anti-fission but pro fusion.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Just because a person is against nuclear fission does not mean they are against nuclear fusion. Most "liberals" I talk to in Canada are anti-fission but pro fusion.

Yeah, but in America that debate isn't like that. They keep dry humping Chernobyl (which was a shitty sub-standard bootleg of an American design), despite the fact nothing like that would ever be built here, whenever the word nuclear is mentioned.

 

[Earthstrike]

Yeah, but in America that debate isn't like that. They keep dry humping Chernobyl (which was a shitty sub-standard bootleg of an American design), despite the fact nothing like that would ever be built here, whenever the word nuclear is mentioned.

My understanding is that the reason chernobyl went kaput had more to do with the fact that the startup team never proceeded to stop the start up of the plant when certain safety tests alerted them to do so. Had they taken the tests seriously they would've discovered the problem with the boron rods not being able to move properly (I think).

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

My understanding is that the reason chernobyl went kaput had more to do with the fact that the startup team never proceeded to stop the start up of the plant when certain safety tests alerted them to do so. Had they taken the tests seriously they would've discovered the problem with the boron rods not being able to move properly (I think).

Yeah, it still a mixture of shitty design, but also morons at the control.

Three Mile Island is actually (IMO) of the system working correctly, which the ANM loonies made look like the end of the world.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

Three Mile Island is actually (IMO) of the system working correctly, which the ANM loonies made look like the end of the world.

Failures are failures, that's good enough for them!

 

[skrew]

Thank god public service jobs aren't dependent on the tax revenues from these workers that work in the industry ..

oh wait.

Thank god private industry isn't dependent on everyone's tax revenue to clean this up... oh wait you are a douche bag.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

here's hoping for more nuclear and wind.

that is all.

 

[skrew]

^ if the scientific community can create it, Big Oil won't have a choice.


while I'd like to agree, you have to be able to empathize to deal with the complexity of this crisis.

you can't just say, "hey you guys need to suck it up for say...6 months without the level of pay you've come accustomed to and tailored your financial situation around.

their bills won't magically be put on moratorium while the government and the entirety of the oil industry operating in the Gulf painstakingly reviewed, updates, and enhances their safety protocol and procedures, then inspects.

so what's really the solution? because putting 10,000 high-paying jobs on the shelf for months is probably not the answer either, nor is forcing us to buy more oil from nations that hate the West (which is what happens if you reduce american oil production...we just buy more from elsewhere. not like our usage is shrinking!)

Despite hippy pleas to the contrary.

so what's a real solution? keep the rest of the rigs drilling. formulate a council/board/steering committee featuring representatives from Big Oil, the government, the Army Corps of Engineers, and the scientific community to review and redevelop our drilling safety protocol. research and come back in 120-180 days with findings, formulate conclusions. write policy based on those conclusions and begin enforcement within 12 months. that will give Big Oil time to understand, internalize and implement any necessary changes to their rigs. 1 year later, any rig found to be in violation of a single element of the new policy will be shutdown in 30 days if those remaining issues are not resolved.

thoughts?

Don't allow a single off shore rig to operate without a relief well. The rest of the developed world does this, its about time this lesson is painfully learned. Big oil will try to sell some bullshit tech to stop leak that won't work in the real world. Requiring relief wells needs to be done now, all the regulations in the world won't be as effective as having a relief well that can shut down a oil leak.

 

[Baraka in the White House]

It's a shitty situation all around. I can definitely understand Louisiana's desire to continue drilling, though, seeing as how the overwhelming majority of rigs are off their coast providing a shitload of jobs to the state. This disaster has been a double whammy for them: losing marshland/fisheries and then the rig jobs.

That's not to mention the ripple effects in the job market as the rigs are idled.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Don't allow a single off shore rig to operate without a relief well. The rest of the developed world does this, its about time this lesson is painfully learned. Big oil will try to sell some bullshit tech to stop leak that won't work in the real world. Requiring relief wells needs to be done now, all the regulations in the world won't be as effective as having a relief well that can shut down a oil leak.

word. yes, agreed completely.

 

[ToxicAdam]

Thank god private industry isn't dependent on everyone's tax revenue to clean this up... oh wait you are a douche bag.

Haha cry more. Kind of like all the tax money we pay for the regulator salaries to watch over these industries that was pissed away. Just another failure of government and no one is accountable.

Obviously, we just didn't have ENOUGH officials watching over BP. Double the size, that will fix it.

 

[VGChampion]

They contend that drilling is safe overall and that the moratorium is a knee-jerk reaction, akin to grounding every airplane in America because of a single crash. They worry, too, that the moratorium comes at a time when another major Louisiana industry — fishing — has been brought to a standstill by the mess in the Gulf.

What the fuck is this? Yeah, if a single airplane crash caused a great disaster. Oh wait.

 

[skrew]

Haha cry more. Kind of like all the tax money we pay for the regulator salaries to watch over these industries that was pissed away. Just another failure of government and no one is accountable.

Obviously, we just didn't have ENOUGH officials watching over BP. Double the size, that will fix it.

Nah, gotta better plan. Lets elect people who don't believe the govt works, gut all the regulations and fill the regulatory agencies with industry friendly people. Then when a catastrophic failure happens, lets point to the govt not working.

 

[Kruhex]

Nice to see that we will never see a switch to any widespread alternative energy infrastructure as long as oil companies have their hand in the back pocket of the government.

 

[mckmas8808]

The government didn't shut down fishing and tourism (I guess those are shut down naturally.)

And those 33 rigs are jobs for who knows how many people.

I'm as pissed off about the oil spill as anyone, but at the same time I can sympathize with the guys who are being furloughed because of the govt. ban.

So should we forever allow jobs to exist regardless of how bad they are to this nation?

Haha cry more. Kind of like all the tax money we pay for the regulator salaries to watch over these industries that was pissed away. Just another failure of government and no one is accountable.

Obviously, we just didn't have ENOUGH officials watching over BP. Double the size, that will fix it.

And just another dumbass company that decided to cut corners to make more profit, even though it could bankrupt their company.

 

[Mudkips]

Why use coal, gas or nuclear when you can go wind and solar?

Because nuclear is far better than either of those?
And is less harmful to the environment, to boot.

The only two good sources of electricity we have come up with are nuclear and hydroelectric.

 

[mckmas8808]

Because nuclear is far better than either of those?
And is less harmful to the environment, to boot.

The only two good sources of electricity we have come up with are nuclear and hydroelectric.

How is nuclear less harmful that wind and solar?

 

[Xabora]

Don't allow a single off shore rig to operate without a relief well. The rest of the developed world does this, its about time this lesson is painfully learned. Big oil will try to sell some bullshit tech to stop leak that won't work in the real world. Requiring relief wells needs to be done now, all the regulations in the world won't be as effective as having a relief well that can shut down a oil leak.

Pretty Much:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/03/us/03montara.html

 

[dejay]

British Prime Minister David Cameron on a bike.

I presume preceded and followed by a fleet of press and security cars.

 

[JoeBoy101]

*coughs*

Members of a panel of experts brought in to advise the Obama administration on how to address offshore drilling safety after the Deepwater Horizon disaster now say Interior Secretary Ken Salazar falsely implied they supported a six-month drilling moratorium they actually oppose.

Salazar's May 27 report to President Barack Obama said a panel of seven experts "peer reviewed" his recommendations, which included a six-month moratorium on all ongoing drilling in waters deeper than 500 feet. That prohibition took effect a few days later, but the angry panel members and some others who contributed to the Salazar report said they had reviewed only an earlier version of the secretary's report that suggested a six-month moratorium only on new drilling, and then only in waters deeper than 1,000 feet.

"We broadly agree with the detailed recommendations in the report and compliment the Department of Interior for its efforts," a joint letter from the panelists to various politicians says. "However, we do not agree with the six month blanket moratorium on floating drilling. A moratorium was added after the final review and was never agreed to by the contributors."

"A blanket moratorium is not the answer. It will not measurably reduce risk further and it will have a lasting impact on the nation's economy which may be greater than that of the oil spill," the letter says. "We do not believe punishing the innocent is the right thing to do."

One of the panelists who signed the letter, University of California at Berkeley engineering professor Bob Bea, said in an e-mail message that a moratorium should be reserved for "unconventional, very hazardous operations" and shouldn't apply to the "majority of conventional offshore operations, (which) meet fundamental requirements for acceptable risks."

 

[skrew]

Let them all pump oil, right after they get done drilling a relief well.

 

[mckmas8808]

*coughs*

And why should we listen to them?

 

[JoeBoy101]

And why should we listen to them?

Just pointing out what

Members of a panel of experts brought in to advise the Obama administration on how to address offshore drilling safety after the Deepwater Horizon disaster

are saying. They have good points, but then Skrew there has a good point too.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

Pretty obvious the only reason simultaneous relief wells are not mandated is because oil companies have their money in politicians pockets.

 

[Mudkips]

How is nuclear less harmful that wind and solar?

How is nuclear harmful, at all?

Do you know what they use to MAKE solar panels?
Do you know that wind turbines require near-constant maintenance (including lubrication, with...oil)? Did you know they take up tons of space and fuck with birds?

Nuclear power plants use a radioactive source (typically plutonium rods or some such) to heat water, the heated water turns to steam and runs a turbine.
When a fuel rod is "spent" it is simply too low of a yield to be used in that plant.

We can take "spent" fuel rods and use them in smaller, lower-output reactors.

We have designs for very small reactors intended to power individual blocks or even homes.

When they're beyond any practical use, they're also beyond any practical danger.
Toss 'em in a drum and bury them somewhere. The worst that could happen is a very slow, very low level irradiation of the area. Detectable, fixable, and NOT a big deal.

BUT LET'S ALL FEAR THE NUCLEAR BOOGEY MAN!

 

[Peronthious]

Wind and solar only works in certain areas.

Which is why the main priority should be to modernize our electrical grid so we can efficiently move energy from areas where it does work to areas where it doesn't. This is being done, but it's not being stressed as much as it should be. We can build all the renewable energy sources we want, but without the proper infrastructure there's really no point.

 

[ezrarh]

How is nuclear less harmful that wind and solar?

I can't speak for wind but solar cells are highly inefficient when you take into account how much it costs to produce them and how long it takes for you to recuperate your upfront costs. Depending on the processes to develop the thin films that go into solar cells, a lot of dangerous chemicals are needed for solar cell production and you also get a lot of toxic gases as a result. You have to take into account on the costs to make these things not just "oh great, we can harvest energy from the wind and sun, let's build as much as we can!" People keep talking about alternative energy sources but we have access to a very good one right now and that's from nuclear. Unfortunately the US is too backwards to consider it right now.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

The government didn't shut down fishing and tourism (I guess those are shut down naturally.)

And those 33 rigs are jobs for who knows how many people.

I'm as pissed off about the oil spill as anyone, but at the same time I can sympathize with the guys who are being furloughed because of the govt. ban.

So the fishermen who lost their jobs? How about the hotels and resorts that are going to have to close because their prime beaches were destroyed? How come those that caused the mess have preference over the victims of their neglegence?