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[hey_monkey]

So we focused a lot on Ouro but not much on kingkitty. kitty's posts are hilarious and there's some analysis there, but it's thin and a lot of it is couched in "bellygut" or broad strokes. The readlists are long and look like a lot but there's a lot of hemming and hawing and joking and not just substance. Which, whatever, they're early. But are they scumhunting?

A few things stick in my craw:

After Kark posted his post-count bit, kitty said he was keeping his vote on Ty but would be okay with a Kark death. An hour and a half later, says nah, Kark shouldn't be killed because the gambit was too lame. But not a whole lot changed between those posts. kitty changed his vote to Orb at that point based on his reads, but this was the read:

13. [m] Orb & [m] TheWorthyEdge
Orb: A complete lack of decisiveness. Very little if any finger pointing. Seems like a newbie (am i right on that?), which could explain something.
Still this isn't great.

TheWorthyEdge: To be honest, it doesn't feel *that* different from his partner. Feels very non-commital. I just feel a whole lot of nothing from this pair, and that troubles my bellygut dearly.

This pair is slipping past like socks on laminated flooring.

This is what I'm talking about. There's a lot of words here but not a lot of substance. Orb and TWE didn't seem like much? Well, yeah, they didn't post much. Dragonz at one point said kitty was being pretty obvious (with another observation) and he struck back saying her reaction was weird. But this stuff is basic. And "weird" is kitty's most common descriptor, which... see below.

There's this, too:

I realize I have too many people as suspicious, which unless Burb went mad, seems like an unlikely amount.

Partly, this is the danger of doing early readlists (I've done it, too); everyone is null or little things become big. But everyone being suspicious? But I feel like this is a scummier position than not. Scum wants to keep the suspicion spread out, keep town pointing fingers and yelling.

This is kitty's vote on d2. Wasn't around for day end, which is fine, lots of people haven't. But it just seems like so much air. There's some analysis in there but it's largely summary and feelings.

Now, this post actually has some analysis, and it touches on the silencer (and scenarios with Kark and Sorian and Ty). I wonder if kitty has any updated thoughts since they've reported being hit with it.

 

[hey_monkey]

I didn't ask for you to defend your boat, you chose to do that of your own accord. It was just noteworthy to me that when you did you made a point to just gloss over his D1 and D2 behavior and tried to pivot the focus towards yourself. Taking shots at my partner really helped drive your point home though, A+ work.

Considering I think Ouro is scum we're not going to get much from them but posts that after they flip we'll look at and go "would they or would they not say this about a teammate" to which we will have no actual answer. By lynching them though we'll get to the bottom of their role, gain info that can lead us to more scum, etc.

Fair points; I got frustrated (largely with myself for making mountains from like actual grains of sand). But yeah, I gloss over Flush's d1 and d2 because I wasn't here and so it's all now secondhand or after flips, and I know he's town so I assume he worked from pro-town motivation. I can really only at that point use what I have and what's in the thread.

Anyhow, I'm ready to:

Vote: Ourobolus

Though I hope we do get more from them.

 

[Sophia]

Kingkitty did seem kind of... wishy-washy with his read of Kitsu/FEP on Day 1?

9. [f] kitsunelaine & [m] flatearthpandas
kitsunelaine:
Talking about her frustration of not wanting to make herself a target over No Lynch (which I guess happened in another game) seemed genuine-ish enough to me. The issue becomes when I think a good portion of her contribution centers around meta (what happened last time), mechanics (no lynch that, no lynch this), and kitsune v WAMD.

Although I gotta say, seeing kitsunelaine reply to Natiko's question is quite interesting. The question being "What if you reached day end and didn't feel like anyone was solidly scum?" And the answer being "Then I'd either go with where everyone else was going or just not vote." I can't think of a worse answer for a scum person to make.
And not a very good answer at all for a townie. Essentially she's saying "I would simply bandwagon or refuse to leave a vote record". It's such a bad answer for scum to make that.

I guess my gut tells me scum didn't make that answer.

flatearthpandas:
Has a decent willingness to poke around and make reads. Did not give me "sacrifice for blood god" vibe.

The first paragraph is kind of standard/what a lot of us were thinking. But the second paragraph seems like a thinly veiled justification for swinging it both ways. Like "I can point to this if they're scum or town!" Seems like it'd be easier just to say it's not alignment indicative.

 

[Ourobolus]

Slept in. Glorious feeling.

Ok let me get my morning constitutional out of the way then I'll start going back through the thread.

 

[Sorian]

Was going to give shit on my catch up (also just woke up) but I'll excuse the sleeping in.

------

To Monkey, transparency is fine as is "widening the lynchpool" (which I find to be an odd demerit from Ty) but trying to shuffle votes onto a spot that can't defend itself is inherently scummy. Your proposal read as a "let's just make things easy and all agree to vote here" which, great, they could be scum and we could all hold hands and cheer but it literally tells us nothing and on the higher liklihood that the spot is town, it gives scum a free mislynch since, again, no direct defense.

 

[Ty4on]

Slept in. Glorious feeling.

Ok let me get my morning constitutional out of the way then I'll start going back through the thread.

Thank God, I thought when you mentioned morning earlier it was because you had just woken up D:

I'm finally in Oslo and will try to get something done a little later.

 

[Darryl]

Ouro's posts this day phase really sounds like a scum who just wants to live another day and is trying to find an angle to do it.

I don't want to lynch him yet though. Don't turbo. I wanna get some more reads out incase I get lynched tonight.

 

[Ourobolus]

First 5 pages down:

So let me first go back and read through all the interactions between FEPsune and everyone else...and then the rabbit hole of discussions caused by said interactions. Gonna look at it as if I'm reading the thread for the first time

Spoiler

insert sorian shitpost here

#174 - FEP first puts down a vote on me, but then removes it two posts later by putting it on Verelios, saying I somehow "redeemed" myself. Not entirely sure what was happening there unless he literally read my first "hello" post, then posted, then read the rest of the thread.

WAMD calls out kitsune for trying to lay low by knowing not to "No Lynch". Now that we know both of their alignments, this is clearly a genuine call-out. At the time it could have been considered newbie jitters or a self-deprecating joke - I know it triggered an alarm bell in my head, but I was thinking that it was more along the lines of newbieness. Something to keep in the back of my mind. What was stranger to me was....

Sophia doesn't seem to understand why WAMD finds this to be odd, which I found to be odd, and was one of the "weird" posts that found strange, because even if it was newbie jitters, it still makes sense to call it out.Ty4on doesn't see anything weird about Sophia regarding this.

kitsune drops a vote on WAMD, and her follow up posts are trying to paint WAMD as scum. Next post, FEP drops a vote on Kark. Rationale is that Kark showed up, said he was waiting on Xbro, then left the thread. Not terribly odd of a prod vote. FEP says he likes Ty4on and Darryl.

Sorian seems to think that WAMD was on the losing side of that interaction, which I don't necessarily agree with. Later states that he's ok with Verelios, and that's why he's not voting WAMD. Also has the hots for Darryl.

#418 - WAMD expalins her reasoning, which prompts a frustrated kitsune response. Muffin posts a reads list, calls WAMD aggressive, is oddly missing FEPsune from the list.

Ty4on drops a vote on kitsune here, saying he had given some thoughts regarding this. I went back and only a page prior he didn't even have kitsune in his scum list, and he was on Sophia's side regarding not understanding the pressure on kitsune. I have zero idea where this vote came from.

Crimson chimes in, states that he doesn't see the argument either. Again, I think it's pretty easy to see the argument and at least understand it - whether you agree is another thing.

Here's where I chime in on it. Honestly I don't even remember what the "some" of the argument on WAMD's side I wasn't getting. However, the end result was that out of the two pairs, FEPsune was scummier.

Long Natiko post covering a variety of topics. Short version is that they find FEPsune pretty scummy. [/url]

Samurai's turn to bat! Considers both VereAreMahDragonz and FEPsune to be suspicious. FEPsune primarily because while she doesn't see the scumminess in the original kitsune post but is worried about the defensiveness.

[url=http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=245207412&postcount=479]Xbro decides that WAMD is the scummier of the two.

[url=http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=245211981&postcount=491]Townie perspective on the whole thing from TWE.. Thinks WAMD's argument is all over the place. Again, it's an argument question, not an alignment question, so I can see a townie not really seeing the argument. My personal thoughts are that I understood the argument but may not have agreed with everything. The post is only notable since we know TWE's alignment. All that said, he still thinks it's a town v town situation.

Exodu5 (dead Town) doesn't see WAMD acting out of character.

I'll point out that while we know kitsune's alignment NOW, she could very well have been just a frustrated townie, so it's not really the argument itself I'm looking at so much as the reactions from the argument. It's not like Town has never argued fellow town into a lynch before.

 

[Natiko]

Ouro's posts this day phase really sounds like a scum who just wants to live another day and is trying to find an angle to do it.

I don't want to lynch him yet though. Don't turbo. I wanna get some more reads out incase I get lynched tonight.

There's no night kill tonight. Not saying we should turbo or that you shouldn't go ahead with your reads though.

 

[Ourobolus]

gah, fucked up some of those tags

 

[Ty4on]

Was going to give shit on my catch up (also just woke up) but I'll excuse the sleeping in.

------

To Monkey, transparency is fine as is "widening the lynchpool" (which I find to be an odd demerit from Ty) but trying to shuffle votes onto a spot that can't defend itself is inherently scummy. Your proposal read as a "let's just make things easy and all agree to vote here" which, great, they could be scum and we could all hold hands and cheer but it literally tells us nothing and on the higher liklihood that the spot is town, it gives scum a free mislynch since, again, no direct defense.

I thought about that while writing it

At the start of the day I came in with a scumread of Darryl, but was met with some pushback because there are good reasons to townread him and I agree. When monkey came with a big "what about lynching Darryl?" post in defence the optics were poor making it look like she wanted to spread our focus.

It fits better in my head than in writing. Probably my poor writing, but I'll blame it on mobile.
Basically if everybody is scummy nobody is scummy.

*Reads entire post*

It's not *that* scummy by itself and a lot of players do it. I've had to tell myself when reading a lot of Sophia's posts "That's how she plays town.

I do take a bit offence to your "let's all vote here" because that's kinda what the Ouro vote was.

 

[Sophia]

Ouro's posts this day phase really sounds like a scum who just wants to live another day and is trying to find an angle to do it.

I don't want to lynch him yet though. Don't turbo. I wanna get some more reads out incase I get lynched tonight.

It reminds me of Blarg in Pineapple Pizza Mafia after he got red-checked, except without the crazy gambits.

 

[Ty4on]

I do take a bit offence to your "let's all vote here" because that's kinda what the Ouro vote was.

Mmm, I kinda over extrapolated here...

I can see how *she* is trying to make us focus on more players than her own boat and Ouro.

 

[Sorian]

You can't just sweep my joke out like that. Come on

------

Before we go down this rabbit hole, I want to see actual reads, not just a recap of events. If you need to recap to get to the reads then fine but this start is the same thing kitsune was doing, recap events and try to get other people to draw conclusions.

 

[Ourobolus]

You can't just sweep my joke out like that. Come on

------

Before we go down this rabbit hole, I want to see actual reads, not just a recap of events. If you need to recap to get to the reads then fine but this start is the same thing kitsune was doing, recap events and try to get other people to draw conclusions.

I'll get to that, I have to fucking read the thread first, buddy

 

[Ourobolus]

It reminds me of Blarg in Pineapple Pizza Mafia after he got red-checked, except without the crazy gambits.

Except i'm not red-checked, I don't need a crazy gambit, and I'm trying to at least get my thoughts down before you guys lynch me.

 

[Sophia]

Except i'm not red-checked, I don't need a crazy gambit, and I'm trying to at least get my thoughts down before you guys lynch me.

I know. But I mean the gut feeling is similar.

 

[Ourobolus]

Orb thinks neither of them are scum. Not a whole lot of reasoning, but still no real red flags either.

Dr. Worm also takes the "both sides seem fine to me" angle. Calls out myself and Kitty for Kitty going after Crimson.

The WAMD/kitsune argument flits out around mid-page 5.
A side note, Flush up to this point has completely avoided the kitsune/WAMD discussion, instead focusing on Natiko and bringing up Trigger as a low poster. Red flag.

Sorian leans more on WAMD being scum.

FEP reads. WAMD doesn't bother him. Ouro is benign. Nomadic is eager town, Natiko is leaning town. Says Royal came in with a good head and perspective. Sophia is a null.

Fireblend's take. Thinks the WAMD/kitsune argument is flimsy, but understands WAMD's perspective. Still slight scumreads both pairs, but seems to imply more scumminess towards kitsune.

My read so far: Flush is LEAN SCUM

 

[Sorian]

I'll get to that, I have to fucking read the thread first, buddy

You should have done that the first time through.

Spoiler

Thank you for lining up the joke again.

 

[Ourobolus]

You should have done that the first time through.

Spoiler

Thank you for lining up the joke again.

I thought you'd appreciate the softball

 

[Royal_Flush]

The way they [editor's note: Royal_Flush] rolled in and threw some shade on kit before randomly deciding to vote on Saw/Sorian just felt weak and while they did explain, it still doesn't feel great to me. It feels like both day ends they've been pretty disinterested in what will result. More just talking about other things on the side instead.

I indeed wasn't overly invested in the result of yesterday's lynch towards the end. But I'd think I would be if kits/FEP were my scum mates, no?

 

[Ourobolus]

I indeed wasn't overly invested in the result of yesterday's lynch towards the end. But I'd think I would be if kits/FEP were my scum mates, no?

FEPsune were loved goons. Not a great power unless you can get them to MyLo but they've been in the spotlight for a while now, so I'd consider it a sunk cost if I was on their team.

 

[Royal_Flush]

The WAMD/kitsune argument flits out around mid-page 5.
A side note, Flush up to this point has completely avoided the kitsune/WAMD discussion, instead focusing on Natiko and bringing up Trigger as a low poster. Red flag.

Why would I comment on an extremely stupid argument that virtually everybody else already commented on? I'd rather focus on things that could otherwise slip through with all the noise.

 

[Ourobolus]

Why would I comment on an extremely stupid argument that virtually everybody else already commented on? I'd rather focus on things that could otherwise slip through with all the noise.

Because you are not other people?

 

[Ourobolus]

10 pages down.

Fatneeks considers the kitsune/WAMD argument to be a scum gambit by WAMD to go hard in on a townie and it backfired. Not entirely sure I see it.

FEP doesn't like my anti-reads list, the jerk. Has no opinions on StarFish or TheWorthyOrb.

Side note: All of the people I originally had in Lean Town are dead :/

Prod (?) vote on Sketch from FEP.

Crimson questions my town read of Fireblend. I don't really have an issue with it since my read was pretty much gut, just posting this for future reference. Leans scum on Exodu5 for some reason.

Muffin votes for me. Yeah, again, not too scummy here since it was a gut read, just kind of the beginning (with Crimson) of the people jumping on me for it. Slightly standing out to me since I put both these teams in my "i wonder if they are scum" list.

The post that launched an armada of ships on fire, carrying TNT, and helmed by the dead. Who are also on fire. Fireblend ultimately flipped Town so the argument should largely be moot, unless people are considering that I'm scum that just "knew" Fire's alignment. Meh.

Something of a good point by Fireblend on Nomad not really chiming in on the whole kitsune/WAMD thing. Natiko is pulling the weight there, though they only mentioned it a little bit prior to this.

The first post where someone publicly muses over my role. Either I'm scum, neutral, or a very good PR. While Natiko may not be scum, it at least must have risen some eyebrows on the scum team which has cause kitty and I to be roleblocked for two nights straight. Crimson follows up with Neutral or Town PR read on me..

Starsketch is terrible at math.

Nomad is still up my ass at this point. So far I actually am townreading Natiko, but Nomad isn't helping. Current read for Natiko: LEAN TOWN.

Flush read list, since at this point I lean scum on him. Feels good about FEP, Vere, and Fireblend, all three of which are dead, one of which was scum. However, then claims kitsune is weird in the same post.

FEP giving me the best rimjob ever.

FEP Read List:

My reads so far. Realizing they're pretty sad. No particular order

Leaning town:
5. [m] TsuXna & [m] Royal_Flush - royal pulling all the weight but good contributions imo. Of course I've only played against scum total once and it was a Christmas miracle we caught him
1. [m] Muffin1611 & [f] Samuraischnecke - i did notice Sam's readlist and found it a decent effort, while muffin has been putting in solid work today. Feel good about you two overall
8. [m] Trigger & [m] Ty4on - ty pulling the weight here but haven't been triggered by his partner
6. [m] franconp & [m] Dr. Worm - i Thought Fran has doing pretty well yesterday while i like worm today. Adds up to a good team for me

Null:
15. [-] Darryl & [m] nin1000 - liking Darryl but not much there
3. [m] Fat4all & [m] Sorian - i feel like i can't even remember anything fat has said but sorian has been decent
14. [f] StarSketch & [m] SexyFish - nothing much. 65% null
13. [m] Orb & [m] TheWorthyEdge - need to look reread both
11. [m] Verelios & [f] WhereAreMahDragonz - i like vere okay and don't particularly like it dislike dragonz. Will look into the orb angle next. Actually, i like that dragonz is bringing up new shit. This may be my towniest null
2. [m] TheExodu5 & [m] Fireblend - fire i liked more early on but don't dislike now. Nothing on exo.
4. [m] CrimsonFist & [f] Sophia - this is the team i worry about the most, but not necessarily that i find scummy. I wish i had better reads on Sophia, but crimson has been okay
7. [m] Xbro & [m] Karkador - not much. Want more from kark still


Leaning scum:
12. [m] Ourobolus & [m] kingkitty - ouro is purposefully vague and unhelpful. Kitty is perpetually promising opinions that never seen to materialize. I wish either one could manufacture some solid opinions
10. [m] Natiko & [m] Nomadic Sparks - natiko is solid. Nomad is all over. I feel like natiko is reigning his partner in a bit. I was criticized for not going to bar for kits but whatever opinions she earned from her exchange, she earned. I know she's town and don't mind her proving it without me swooping in. I'd like to see nomad fend for himself a bit.

Unvote

Really don't understand the Flush town read. And just 14 posts earlier admitted he didn't like me but didn't understand the pile-on regarding my read of fireblend.

 

[Royal_Flush]

FEPsune were loved goons. Not a great power unless you can get them to MyLo but they've been in the spotlight for a while now, so I'd consider it a sunk cost if I was on their team.

Oh, I think I've seen this argument before from you. How on earth did you come to the conclusion that goons are next to worthless? It's a third of the whole team (in this game). You are aware of the point system of balancing mafia game, I assume?
Vanilla town is +1, Goon is -7 (I think). Town PRs range from 2 to 8 or something, Mafia PRs from -8 to -12 or something. Don't force me to look it up. My point is, that Town PRs are a lot more valuable than Vanilla Townies while Scum PRs are only a little more valuable than Goons.

The assumption that Scum would not try to save a Goon but would try to save a mediocre to good-but-not-overpowered Scum PR in the same situation is ridiculous.

Because you are not other people?

The fight was about a silly topic and exploded completely out of proportion. I had nothing of importance to add and when i checked in after the fight the thread had moved on. Would it be helpful if I wrote "I got no strong reads on either party out of this interaction" for each major interaction i got no strong reads out of?

 

[Ourobolus]

"Useless" is in comparison to the rest of the team. It's highly likely the other two teams are PRs (and we've got pretty good confirmation that one of them is a roleblocker/hooker). The point is that if one of them has to go due to suspicion piling on, the goon is the ideal option.

 

[Ourobolus]

The argument went on for like 600 posts. Sure it was blown out of proportion, but it was the primary topic for a long time.

 

[Royal_Flush]

"Useless" is in comparison to the rest of the team. It's highly likely the other two teams are PRs (and we've got pretty good confirmation that one of them is a roleblocker/hooker). The point is that if one of them has to go due to suspicion piling on, the goon is the ideal option.

Of course it's better for the Scum team if the goon dies instead of the PR. But controlling which of the Scum members gets suspicion? That's not how this game works. If a goon can't be saved without the others getting more suspicious, then so can't the PR. The play wouldn't significantly change. There is no way to "shift" suspicion from a already suspicious Scum PR to an unsuspicious goon. maybe hardcore bussing would do the trick but that would involve the already suspicious person leading a lynch against a less suspicious person and a majority of Townies following them. And even then it's risky business.

You saying that Scum wouldn't risk themselves for the weakest of their team but would for a PR is incredibly shortsighted in the best case and maliciously deceptive to make your D2 "let's not lynch FEP, the claimed PR" less suspicious in the way more likely case.

 

[Ourobolus]

Of course it's better for the Scum team if the goon dies instead of the PR. But controlling which of the Scum members gets suspicion? That's not how this game works. If a goon can't be saved without the others getting more suspicious, then so can't the PR. The play wouldn't significantly change. There is no way to "shift" suspicion from a already suspicious Scum PR to an unsuspicious goon. maybe hardcore bussing would do the trick but that would involve the already suspicious person leading a lynch against a less suspicious person and a majority of Townies following them. And even then it's risky business.

You saying that Scum wouldn't risk themselves for the weakest of their team but would for a PR is incredibly shortsighted in the best case and maliciously deceptive to make your D2 "let's not lynch FEP, the claimed PR" less suspicious in the way more likely case.

No, I'm saying that if one of them does come under suspicion, it's ideal for scum if it's the weakest member, PR-wise. Obviously they can't control the suspicion, I'm saying they may play differently if something more important was on the chopping block. I wouldn't say they would shift it from the PR to the Goon, so much as try something else. And of course it's risky, regardless of play. Everything is scrutinized.

 

[Royal_Flush]

No, I'm saying that if one of them does come under suspicion, it's ideal for scum if it's the weakest member, PR-wise. Obviously they can't control the suspicion, I'm saying they may play differently if something more important was on the chopping block. I wouldn't say they would shift it from the PR to the Goon, so much as try something else. And of course it's risky, regardless of play. Everything is scrutinized.

And I told you that the changes would be very minor if at all unless it's a very important PR (hint: a RB in a game by Burbeting classified as normal game is not). Can you give me a realistic example of a situation where the best for Scum is different if there was a mediocre PR involved instead of a goon?

 

[Burbeting]

Muffin1611 has been replaced by rac
Samuraischnecke has been replaced by acohrs

 

[Natiko]

I indeed wasn't overly invested in the result of yesterday's lynch towards the end. But I'd think I would be if kits/FEP were my scum mates, no?

It ultimately depends on your approach. For the most part this game you've been low key. You haven't really stirred the pot too much or made a ton of noise. If you had rolled in at day end and gone too hard to bat for kit/FEP it could have set off even more alarm bells (look at Ouro). On the flip side it's entirely possible for someone that is town to make a ton of noise at a day end even if they don't know what the actual result will be just due to where they feel scum is. It's about the game as a whole and how your actions look given the broader context. D1 you were disinterested and from what I recall didn't really comment on the voting developments after you cast your vote for Kark. You just talked about something different. D2 though you seemed a little more flustered, threw a little shade on FEP but still voted in a manner that could be interpreted as hoping to give them a chance to live before ultimately shifting topics to something unrelated.

"Useless" is in comparison to the rest of the team. It's highly likely the other two teams are PRs (and we've got pretty good confirmation that one of them is a roleblocker/hooker). The point is that if one of them has to go due to suspicion piling on, the goon is the ideal option.

To loop back around to this - I'm not sure if someone else has mentioned this and I've forgotten or what, but given that if there is a mafia roleblocker they are likely to be a hooker isn't it odd for them to then sit on one group to roleblock continuously? They would surely have been tipped off to the fact that if they did not roleblock the virgin they would lose out on an entire kill. I'm not sure that it makes much tactical sense for the mafia to accept a skipped night kill all in an effort to frame you as scum.

 

[Ourobolus]

This small interaction between myself and Crimson stood out to me. Shade-throwing on kitty despite the answer being right above his post.

For posterity:

Top scum:

1. Muffin & Samurai
2. Kitsune & FEP
3. FatSorian
4. Vere & WAMD

Ty is town reading me and scum reading FlushTsu.

The BatPuter springs to life and outputs a string of PEBCAK errors. Otherwise Kark is entirely a non-entity and Xbro isn't propping him up much either. Read on Karkabro: NEUTRAL to LEAN SCUMI can see a scenario where the person who does the Silencing purposefully doesn't use it N1 and then claim they were silenced, in order to gain some credibility later. That said I don't know the neutral's win condition if there even is a neutral, or if the Silencing is still possibly a scum ability and they are allowed to kill in addition to using it.

Around post #1308 we run into the Darryl/Sorian feud. I kinda get the frustration on Fat's end (because...well, it's Darryl, who did recontextualize the posts he was quoting), but FatSorian did misread some of the posts that Darryl put forth. In the end I think I'm siding with Darryl on this one. Read on Darryl: NULL TO LEAN TOWN At the very least I'm sure it's not a scum/scum argument.

The swing to Orb in the final minutes of D1 was weird. I admit I took part in it because Orb was in the lead and I didn't want to worry about there being a tie, since the vote counting wasn't speedy enough (Burb has my script now though). Granted I'm not entirely sure about Karkabro's alignment but I can't look at the swing and not imagine there's something off.

End of D1.

 

[Ourobolus]

To loop back around to this - I'm not sure if someone else has mentioned this and I've forgotten or what, but given that if there is a mafia roleblocker they are likely to be a hooker isn't it odd for them to then sit on one group to roleblock continuously? They would surely have been tipped off to the fact that if they did not roleblock the virgin they would lose out on an entire kill. I'm not sure that it makes much tactical sense for the mafia to accept a skipped night kill all in an effort to frame you as scum.

The hooker MAY not know they can disable the virgin. I think in Pineapple Pizza mafia, for instance, the Pineapple Pizza-giver-outer didn't know if they targeted a specific townie that that townie would get publicly revealed the next day.

 

[Natiko]

The hooker MAY not know they can disable the virgin. I think in Pineapple Pizza mafia, for instance, the Pineapple Pizza-giver-outer didn't know if they targeted a specific townie that that townie would get publicly revealed the next day.

Wouldn't that be semi-bastard? Does that not count as lying to a player about their role? (Serious question - not being snarky)

 

[Ourobolus]

And I told you that the changes would be very minor if at all unless it's a very important PR (hint: a RB in a game by Burbeting classified as normal game is not). Can you give me a realistic example of a situation where the best for Scum is different if there was a mediocre PR involved instead of a goon?

I know you told me your opinion, but doesn't it all depend on who the scum are? Different levels of experience and how they approach things tactically.

Also what? A scum RB is absolutely an important PR. They can disable Town PRs. How is that not a great scum role?

 

[Ty4on]

Ty4on drops a vote on kitsune here, saying he had given some thoughts regarding this. I went back and only a page prior he didn't even have kitsune in his scum list, and he was on Sophia's side regarding not understanding the pressure on kitsune. I have zero idea where this vote came from.

My logic is impeccable

That vote is a combination of things. It kinda went up to me at that time that nothing kitsune had said was townie. I automatically give players who stick out a town lean so I figured after this affair was over I'd find something townie from her.
It's mostly pressure tho. Sorian had just plopped down a vote and I wanted to give it some extra pressure. Despite the long arguments it's not like her boat was in grave danger with all the players chipping in that they didn't find the post scummy (including me).

Orb thinks neither of them are scum. Not a whole lot of reasoning, but still no real red flags either.

I kinda think Orb is townie looking there

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[Ourobolus]

Wouldn't that be semi-bastard? Does that not count as lying to a player about their role? (Serious question - not being snarky)

Ehhhhh, that's a bit of a grey area. It's not really "lying" to the player so much as omitting information. I mean, it's like having a Tracker on the town side and then having a Ninja on the scum side. The Tracker would get "no results" even if they targeted the Ninja.

 

[Ourobolus]

I kinda think Orb is townie looking there

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Yeah that's a brain fart, oops. Pretend i was reading that without being spoiled that Orb was dead >_>

 

[Natiko]

Ehhhhh, that's a bit of a grey area. It's not really "lying" to the player so much as omitting information. I mean, it's like having a Tracker on the town side and then having a Ninja on the scum side. The Tracker would get "no results" even if they targeted the Ninja.

That's fair then. Just was a thought I had and figured it was worth mentioning at least.

 

[CrimsonFist]

The hooker MAY not know they can disable the virgin. I think in Pineapple Pizza mafia, for instance, the Pineapple Pizza-giver-outer didn't know if they targeted a specific townie that that townie would get publicly revealed the next day.

Presumably the role would be called Hooker though, seeing as other flips have used standard mafia scum terminology. That should be enough of a hint to figure it out.

Something that's been bugging me, if Ouro is lying, and we can still assume that scum have a role-blocker, then either scum withheld their role block for two days, or Ouro is running the risk of someone counter claiming blocked.

 

[Ty4on]

Yeah that's a brain fart, oops. Pretend i was reading that without being spoiled that Orb was dead >_>

I've seen some comments about them, mostly shade. What do you really think of Crimson and Sophia?

 

[Natiko]

Presumably the role would be called Hooker though, seeing as other flips have used standard mafia scum terminology. That should be enough of a hint to figure it out.

Something that's been bugging me, if Ouro is lying, and we can still assume that scum have a role-blocker, then either scum withheld their role block for two days, or Ouro is running the risk of someone counter claiming blocked.

If you're Ouro and you see such a strong push for your lynch right out of the gate is that such a bad result? Getting counter claimed means someone would be outting themselves as a PR.

 

[Ty4on]

The fight was about a silly topic and exploded completely out of proportion. I had nothing of importance to add and when i checked in after the fight the thread had moved on. Would it be helpful if I wrote "I got no strong reads on either party out of this interaction" for each major interaction i got no strong reads out of?

Yes

 

[Ty4on]

I've seen some comments about them, mostly shade. What do you really think of Crimson and Sophia?

Should stress I'm talking about comments from Ouro, not general comments from thread.

 

[Royal_Flush]

It ultimately depends on your approach. For the most part this game you've been low key. You haven't really stirred the pot too much or made a ton of noise. If you had rolled in at day end and gone too hard to bat for kit/FEP it could have set off even more alarm bells (look at Ouro). On the flip side it's entirely possible for someone that is town to make a ton of noise at a day end even if they don't know what the actual result will be just due to where they feel scum is. It's about the game as a whole and how your actions look given the broader context. D1 you were disinterested and from what I recall didn't really comment on the voting developments after you cast your vote for Kark. You just talked about something different. D2 though you seemed a little more flustered, threw a little shade on FEP but still voted in a manner that could be interpreted as hoping to give them a chance to live before ultimately shifting topics to something unrelated.

I don't disagree that as Scum I probably wouldn't defend FEP kicking and screaming either. I just think it's very odd to say the fact that I didn't do it is suspicious (as seen here). Also I didn't shift the topic anywhere on D2 except for a quick question for clarification towards ty.

To loop back around to this - I'm not sure if someone else has mentioned this and I've forgotten or what, but given that if there is a mafia roleblocker they are likely to be a hooker isn't it odd for them to then sit on one group to roleblock continuously? They would surely have been tipped off to the fact that if they did not roleblock the virgin they would lose out on an entire kill. I'm not sure that it makes much tactical sense for the mafia to accept a skipped night kill all in an effort to frame you as scum.

Yup. Almost as if Ouro was bullshitting us with that claim...

I know you told me your opinion, but doesn't it all depend on who the scum are? Different levels of experience and how they approach things tactically.

Also what? A scum RB is absolutely an important PR. They can disable Town PRs. How is that not a great scum role?

*shrugs* Maybe. I still find it hard to imagine, but anyway. The point of this whole exercise was that "I'm not Scum because why would I stick out my head for a Vanilla Scum" is nonsense. As well as "Flush didn't make noise to save FEP because they're just Vanilla Scum".

As to the second paragraph: I expect few PRs in this game. Maybe 4 out of the 12 Townies. I also don't expect a lot of investigative roles. Because it's a normal Burbeting game. The chance of a RB doing nothing of relevance until there's a claim is quite high.

 

[Natiko]

I don't disagree that as Scum I probably wouldn't defend FEP kicking and screaming either. I just think it's very odd to say the fact that I didn't do it is suspicious (as seen here). Also I didn't shift the topic anywhere on D2 except for a quick question for clarification towards ty.

I guess I should have phrased everything better. Your general demeanor of being uninterested is suspicious. I think the subtle difference in your day end D1 compared to D2 (more flustered D2, bit of shade on FEP then voting Sorian anyways) is suspicious. I was trying to make that all clear but I may have fumbled some of the explanation.

 

[Ourobolus]

Presumably the role would be called Hooker though, seeing as other flips have used standard mafia scum terminology. That should be enough of a hint to figure it out.

Something that's been bugging me, if Ouro is lying, and we can still assume that scum have a role-blocker, then either scum withheld their role block for two days, or Ouro is running the risk of someone counter claiming blocked.

Why would I want to get someone to counter claim? Best case scenario then I postpone my death an entire day. Whoopadeefuckindoo.

I've seen some comments about them, mostly shade. What do you really think of Crimson and Sophia?

Still working through D2, but D1 I had some reservations about their posts. Null-ish, maybe slight scum, at the moment.

If you're Ouro and you see such a strong push for your lynch right out of the gate is that such a bad result? Getting counter claimed means someone would be outting themselves as a PR.

Again, I don't want that. Also, I have no reason to believe there would be a counter claim, because, as kitty and i have both said, our messages apparently went nowhere, or the recipients are lying about not receiving them

Yup. Almost as if Ouro was bullshitting us with that claim...

Keep pulling that thread, cause best case you'll be gone D4 after my flip.

*shrugs* Maybe. I still find it hard to imagine, but anyway. The point of this whole exercise was that "I'm not Scum because why would I stick out my head for a Vanilla Scum" is nonsense. As well as "Flush didn't make noise to save FEP because they're just Vanilla Scum".

As to the second paragraph: I expect few PRs in this game. Maybe 4 out of the 12 Townies. I also don't expect a lot of investigative roles. Because it's a normal Burbeting game. The chance of a RB doing nothing of relevance until there's a claim is quite high.

At this point, the RB has done something of relevance, and that is made their presence known. We don't have to imagine the scenario, it already happened. The fact that we have a Virgin pair also lends credence to their existence. Your point doesn't make any sense.

 

[Ty4on]

Still working through D2, but D1 I had some reservations about their posts. Null-ish, maybe slight scum, at the moment.

What do you make of their D2 votes? Other than just "they bussed"