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Mad Men - Season 6 - Sundays on AMC

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P

pigeon

Banned
Wool said:
He got along really well with Joan when they met at the bar last season.
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That's what I mean. Have you ever seen Don get along with any woman really well before? Totally a bizarre experience for him. Joan, like Don, dives headfirst into the social and sexual stereotypes about her gender in order to handle the people around her, so they actually understand each other -- and the fact that they're both putting on an act -- really well. As a result they almost never interact. I think there are only two episodes in the whole show where they have a sustained conversation with nobody else around -- the Jaguar one and the one with the lawnmower -- and both times they have really interesting conversation.

Wool said:
I think he really respected her until she slept with the Jaguar guy.
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I don't think Don disrespects Joan now. I mean, she goes into his office to complain that the Jaguar guy's in town, and Don follows that up by deliberately torpedoing his idea. I think he respects the firm less.
 
B

Bobby Roberts

Banned
I really don't think Peggy & Stan's friendship is trashed. I think there was a strain, but rewatch that scene. Stan is smirking as he flies that bird. Peggy smirks back. Yeah, there was some bullshit involved, but this is probably not enough to wipe their whole friendship off the boards

Hell, knowing this show, this move Peggy pulled will end up strengthening their bond somehow.

Re: ketchup - kids put that shit on fucking everything. I'm pretty sure marketing of the 60s, 70s, & 80s helped contribute to that phenomenon. Most people I know didn't get discerning about what they slathered on their backyard bbq weiner until way later in life. The majority of Americans prolly don't eat their dogs at a ballgame or out a street cart. back then, it was more like out a pot of boiling water straight to a folded over piece of white bread

they used ketchup, then.
 
P

-Pyromaniac-

Member
pigeon said:
That's what I mean. Have you ever seen Don get along with any woman really well before? Totally a bizarre experience for him. Joan, like Don, dives headfirst into the social and sexual stereotypes about her gender in order to handle the people around her, so they actually understand each other -- and the fact that they're both putting on an act -- really well. As a result they almost never interact. I think there are only two episodes in the whole show where they have a sustained conversation with nobody else around -- the Jaguar one and the one with the lawnmower -- and both times they have really interesting conversation.
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I hate and love that. Sucks we can't get them together and alone more often but when they do it always seems amazing. It's almost too much for the viewers considering how commanding they are lol.
 
Ultimadrago

Ultimadrago

Member
pigeon said:
That's what I mean. Have you ever seen Don get along with any woman really well before? Totally a bizarre experience for him. Joan, like Don, dives headfirst into the social and sexual stereotypes about her gender in order to handle the people around her, so they actually understand each other -- and the fact that they're both putting on an act -- really well. As a result they almost never interact. I think there are only two episodes in the whole show where they have a sustained conversation with nobody else around -- the Jaguar one and the one with the lawnmower -- and both times they have really interesting conversation.
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Some of the best one-on-ones from my perspective. It's respectful, friendly as bizarre as you said. It's a shame there's so little, but I think that's what helped make them special interactions in the context. They're close, but are both fairly independent characters. It would be odd to see them speak to each other alone as much as, say, Roger has spoken with Don (as he's the talkative foil for him).

pigeon said:
I don't think Don disrespects Joan now. I mean, she goes into his office to complain that the Jaguar guy's in town, and Don follows that up by deliberately torpedoing his idea. I think he respects the firm less.
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This is how I see the case. Don fixed Harry an extra stern glare when he brought up Joan's deal. The thought of it still disgusts him and I believe he still has above-average respect for Joan. It'd be the only explanation for a man like him still being mildly vexed from the topic's mere mention.
 
C

Cornballer

Member
- Writer/critic Ken Levine rants about the likeability issue: My problem with MAD MEN this season
When I’m creating a show my first rule is that I’ve got to love my characters. They may be flawed – they should be flawed – but ultimately I love them and care about them. And hopefully, I can convey that to the audience and they’ll love them too.

Again, the characters don’t have to be particularly loveable. Sweet and earnest and always-doing-the-right-thing is also boring. The best characters are complex. They may have internal battles between good and evil. They may be scoundrels but deliciously so. Or they can’t get out of their own way. Or life’s dealt them a bad hand. Or Hitler was their nanny growing up. I dunno – there are endless possibilities.

And often times the more layers the better.

But lately I’ve observed a disturbing trend. (Now the rant begins) Series creators are making their characters so hateful that I stop caring.
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More via the link.
 
I

Ignatz Mouse

Banned
Cornballer said:
- Writer/critic Ken Levine rants about the likeability issue: My problem with MAD MEN this seasonMore via the link.
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I know that there are people for whom this has always been important, but not for me. I assume these people do not care for Macbeth.

I did have an issue with Breaking Bad in that for a season and a half I was rooting for him, and then he crossed a line I couldn't forgive him for. But then I continued watching for a lot of other reasons.

For this show, I'm still rooting for Don. He's usually been likable, particularly last season. He may (in the course of just the last three episodes) become completely irredeemable, or at least gone down a path where he's not likely to shape up. But it doesn't matter. He's as fascinating to watch besting his demons as he is giving in to them.
 
C

Cornballer

Member
Ignatz Mouse said:
For this show, I'm still rooting for Don. He's usually been likable, particularly last season. He may (in the course of just the last three episodes) become completely irredeemable, or at least gone down a path where he's not likely to shape up. But it doesn't matter. He's as fascinating to watch besting his demons as he is giving in to them.
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I don't think we've quite gotten there with Mad Men, but is there is a breaking point for every character/show? A point of no return?

Empty said:
i figured that was the bioshock guy before i clicked the link. thankfully it's not
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Yeah, it's the MASH/Cheers guy, not the Bioshock guy.
where's the vase gif
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NCNhCm8.gif
 
I

Ignatz Mouse

Banned
He overstates Peggy and reduces Joan to nothing, but I think he's right abotu Betty. Although she may be ready for a turn herself.

I said this before, I'll say it again-- all this Bad Don so early in the season isn't becuase they're retreading old ground, it's setup for something more. I can't remember a season fo MM where this much happened so early, they usually start slow. There's something coming. Critics seem eager to define the entire season based on a few episodes.
 
K

killertofu

Member
So I've finally caught up with Mad Men after years of trying to watch it (ending somewhere in season 3)

I think what I don't like the most is Don's lack of development. I tried to pinpoint exactly what irked me most. At first I thought it was because I didn't like any of the characters. But I love Breaking Bad and despise Walt because he actually grows and changes throughout the show. Don never does. He will always cheat, he will always drink, he will always smoke. Dons pitches are what I enjoy most from the show (ad major) but it seems like that's the thing that's regressing.

I really loved the ending of season three. It seemed like SCDP was going to be a fresh start. Then the next season starts and they already have a decent office.

Plus every character Ived actually enjoyed (Sal and Lane) met their end. They seriously couldn't bring Sal back after lucky strike?

I am glad Betty is getting less screen time though. It weirds me out how much she acts like my ex
 
S

Salvor.Hardin

Banned
Season 4 was the height of the show. I don't think it's dropped substantially since then, but it's certainly not the same. Where characters expressed deeper and complex issues in the first four seasons through nonverbal cues, I feel as if season 5 and season 6 are different in that verbalized feelings and contrived meetings are used instead.

Maybe it's just me. Perhaps you guys feel different.
 
P

pigeon

Banned
So for years we felt for Don, even looked the other way when he did dishonorable things like cheat on his wife with every woman other than Bella Abzug. The hope was always that he’d figure it out, finally be comfortable in his own skin, and that all of his good qualities would rise to the surface and he’d become a better father, husband, employer, and stop wearing hats already in 1968. And if he slipped up a little, well – he’s only human and we’ve come to expect that. Betty is trying to throw Hansel & Gretel in an oven, she’s a lost cause. But there was still hope for Don.
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This is what I'm talking about. You felt for Don because you thought he was going to suddenly become a good person? Guess what -- Don SUCKERED YOU, the way he suckers everybody he deals with. And now that you're realizing that, you feel like a sucker. I don't think you can blame the show for that, though. Mad Men has never tried to convince you that Don was a good person. You just wanted to believe it anyway because you hate Betty. Which, personally, I think is evidence that you don't really understand either Don or Betty, but that's another story.

Dear plucky Peggy has turned into a cold-hearted bitch. She’s becoming Don. And along the way she’s betraying trusted friends to advance her own career. She's gone from saddle shoes to jack boots.

Joan has slept with an oaf who looks like Shrek to become a partner. Roger has no relationship with his daughter and is basically drinking himself into oblivion. Pete never learns. He only has affairs with women who are nuts.
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These are just insane expectations. Peggy has ALWAYS been career first. Remember? That's kind of her entire character and has been since literally the first episode of the show. Joan has ALWAYS planned to use her looks to secure a position for herself, it's just that she wanted it to be as a housewife and that didn't work out. The Roger one is pretty funny because the first episode has a whole scene specifically about Roger trying to figure out how to relate to his daughter, only to discover she isn't that interested in relating to him. I really have no comment on the idea that we should expect Pete's character growth to involve him having BETTER CONSIDERED AFFAIRS.

I mean this honestly -- it's surprising to me that people who have these expectations for a show have made it this far in Mad Men, because I don't feel like the show is dishonest about saying that it won't fulfill any of those expectations ever.
 
S

Smelly Tramp

Member
Cornballer said:
- Writer/critic Ken Levine rants about the likeability issue:
Click to expand...

i have to say, he's right if you watch your shows solely because you idolise the characters, but he complains that more & more shows are making their characters unlikeable and i couldn't disagree more.

more and more, and not just in tv, but in recent movies as well, characters and especially villains are given back stories to try and justify their evil doings/misgivings in a bid to make them more human and likeable, to make them more relate-able.

but whats wrong with just having plain assholes or straight up bastards for characters? too often writers explore characters and events that would be better left how they are/were (darth vader in the star wars prequels comes to mind, or bane in dark knight rises).

don to me is the complete alpha positive male, he takes what he wants because he can. he's hugely successful career wise, but he cheats because he strives for something different. even when his current wife is unbelievably hot he always thinks the grass is greener, he just can't help himself, but he does it because he can. maybe one day a woman will sweep him off his feet and he might be faithful for a year or two, but ultimately he will revert back to doing what he does.

people can change, but come on, most people don't.
 
K

killertofu

Member
Smelly Tramp said:
i have to say, he's right if you watch your shows solely because you idolise the characters, but he complains that more & more shows are making their characters unlikeable and i couldn't disagree more.

more and more, and not just in tv, but in recent movies as well, characters and especially villains are given back stories to try and justify their evil doings/misgivings in a bid to make them more human and likeable, to make them more relate-able.

but whats wrong with just having plain assholes or straight up bastards for characters? too often writers explore characters and events that would be better left how they are/were (darth vader in the star wars prequels comes to mind, or bane in dark knight rises).

don to me is the complete alpha positive male, he takes what he wants because he can. he's hugely successful career wise, but he cheats because he strives for something different. even when his current wife is unbelievably hot he always thinks the grass is greener, he just can't help himself, but he does it because he can. maybe one day a woman will sweep him off his feet and he might be faithful for a year or two, but ultimately he will revert back to doing what he does.

people can change, but come on, most people don't.
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What's the reason why he started cheating again? Just because that's in his character?

Sorry but that's not good enough. Especially after he was singing praises about Meg the previous season.
 
D

Dance Inferno

Unconfirmed Member
Weiner said that a theme of Season 6 is whether not people can actually change. I think Don in Season 5 showed a significant amount of change - he was nicer and loyal to Megan, and even Peggy at one point complains about how nice he is to clients. And throughout Season 5 you keep thinking, "This isn't Don." He tries to change, but it's obvious that he's trying to be something he isn't, and over time you can see how unhappy he is in this skin. In Season 6 he regresses to his true self, and I think that's great.

Some people can change. Don is not one of those people.
 
Z

ZedIndyLil

Member
The likeability issue is an interesting one for television. There's a school of thought that says that it's almost impossible to make an unsympathetic main character on a show regardless of how nasty they are, simply because of the intimacy and familiarity that's part of the medium. People who stick around to watch will tend to grow to like the character, regardless of the intentions of the creators. That's why, say, All in the Family was so controversial not just on the right but also on the left; many people couldn't handle how it gave humanity to a racist, even though he was shown to be such a buffoon. At a certain point the dissonance is too great for some viewers and they have to bail out. That's kind of why I (sorry to admit) bailed on The Sopranos; too many reprehensible characters that I didn't want to stick with for more than a couple seasons, despite the brilliant acting.

I don't think Mad Men is at that point yet, though. Don's shittiness this season is nothing new; he's been an asshole from episode one, and his redemptive "arc" has already had many major backslides over the years. And he is never triumphing because of his bad actions--it's clear that bad things are going to happen to him this year. So as much as I shouted at the screen this past week due to his staggering hypocrisy, I know it's part of a plan.
 
S

Smelly Tramp

Member
killertofu said:
What's the reason why he started cheating again? Just because that's in his character?

Sorry but that's not good enough. Especially after he was singing praises about Meg the previous season.
Click to expand...

how is that not good enough? that IS Don, ok he shouldn't be solely defined by his cheating but it is a part of him. he was singing praises about megan because it was that stage in the marriage, the golden years, the honeymoon. we don't know for sure but he may have stayed faithful to betty early on, but it wears off.

its realistic in my eyes. how many celebrity marriages fail? not saying that don is a celebrity, but if you're at the top, and you can have everything you want, that fresh feeling of love, that first spark that eventually dulls, why wouldn't you just move on to the next one?

and remind me again why doing something because it's your character is not a good reason? it's the perfect reason, its why anyone does anything.
 
C

CrankyJay

Banned
ilnadmy said:
Weiner said that a theme of Season 6 is whether not people can actually change. I think Don in Season 5 showed a significant amount of change - he was nicer and loyal to Megan, and even Peggy at one point complains about how nice he is to clients. And throughout Season 5 you keep thinking, "This isn't Don." He tries to change, but it's obvious that he's trying to be something he isn't, and over time you can see how unhappy he is in this skin. In Season 6 he regresses to his true self, and I think that's great.

Some people can change. Don is not one of those people.
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lol, he abandoned her at a Howard Johnson
 
K

killertofu

Member
Smelly Tramp said:
how is that not good enough? that IS Don, ok he shouldn't be solely defined by his cheating but it is a part of him. he was singing praises about megan because it was that stage in the marriage, the golden years, the honeymoon. we don't know for sure but he may have stayed faithful to betty early on, but it wears off.

its realistic in my eyes. how many celebrity marriages fail? not saying that don is a celebrity, but if you're at the top, and you can have everything you want, that fresh feeling of love, that first spark that eventually dulls, why wouldn't you just move on to the next one?

and remind me again why doing something because it's your character is not a good reason? it's the perfect reason, its why anyone does anything.
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I think my main problem with it is the abrupt-ness. Last season ends with a woman asking him if he's with anyone and then this season he's randomly smanging a friend's wife. They're just skipping the plot forward.
 
D

Dance Inferno

Unconfirmed Member
killertofu said:
I think my main problem with it is the abrupt-ness. Last season ends with a woman asking him if he's with anyone and then this season he's randomly smanging a friend's wife. They're just skipping the plot forward.
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Well it has been eight months since the end of season 5.
 
Dominican Power

Dominican Power

Member
DBebm5 said:
The likeability issue is an interesting one for television. There's a school of thought that says that it's almost impossible to make an unsympathetic main character on a show regardless of how nasty they are, simply because of the intimacy and familiarity that's part of the medium. People who stick around to watch will tend to grow to like the character, regardless of the intentions of the creators. That's why, say, All in the Family was so controversial not just on the right but also on the left; many people couldn't handle how it gave humanity to a racist, even though he was shown to be such a buffoon. At a certain point the dissonance is too great for some viewers and they have to bail out. That's kind of why I (sorry to admit) bailed on The Sopranos; too many reprehensible characters that I didn't want to stick with for more than a couple seasons, despite the brilliant acting.

I don't think Mad Men is at that point yet, though. Don's shittiness this season is nothing new; he's been an asshole from episode one, and his redemptive "arc" has already had many major backslides over the years. And he is never triumphing because of his bad actions--it's clear that bad things are going to happen to him this year. So as much as I shouted at the screen this past week due to his staggering hypocrisy, I know it's part of a plan.
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smh @ you not sticking with The Sopranos. In the end the shitty characters get theirs.
 
Dominican Power

Dominican Power

Member
killertofu said:
I think my main problem with it is the abrupt-ness. Last season ends with a woman asking him if he's with anyone and then this season he's randomly smanging a friend's wife. They're just skipping the plot forward.
Click to expand...

Picking up where the show left last season is one of the hardest things to do in television. We get our answer to last season's question at the very end of the first episode of S6.
 
P

-Pyromaniac-

Member
Cornballer said:
I don't think we've quite gotten there with Mad Men, but is there is a breaking point for every character/show? A point of no return?


Yeah, it's the MASH/Cheers guy, not the Bioshock guy.

NCNhCm8.gif
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As long as he doesn't kill anyone I think there is always a possibility of redemption. It won't excuse shitty things he has done in the past but that doesn't mean he can't be a better person in the future.
 
D

Dance Inferno

Unconfirmed Member
It is a play on both. This is stated literally in the very first seconds of the first episode in season 1.

Edit: I like the Don D. Raper discovery.
 
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