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[dschalter]

I remember going to smaller tournaments with 20 or so people, and 15 would be playing affinity. Maybe it wasn't as bad in your area but around here it was absurd. Cawblade on the other hand made up maybe 20% of the decks at most tournaments in my area.

I played Affinity during its heyday and my FNM was around 50% Affinity, while PTQs and the like were around 40%. It isn't as bad with Caw-Blade, but that is simply because the deck is expensive, while Affinity was very easy to build.

This graph illustrates the situation rather well I think:

(PTQ attendance)

For WoTC, the number one priority is getting as many people as possible to play MTG (and to play in a way that leads them to buy cards from new sets to be a bit more specific). Caw-Blade did not lead to good things in that department.

 

[Chojin]

I played Affinity during its heyday and my FNM was around 50% Affinity, while PTQs and the like were around 40%. It isn't as bad with Caw-Blade, but that is simply because the deck is expensive, while Affinity was very easy to build.

This graph illustrates the situation rather well I think:

chart.png

(PTQ attendance)

For WoTC, the number one priority is getting as many people as possible to play MTG (and to play in a way that leads them to buy cards from new sets to be a bit more specific). Caw-Blade did not lead to good things in that department.

Yes, to ignore attendance levels this year would be a great folly. I really do hope the price of cards can be addressed as well, but I think its something WoTC is going to ignore. Mythics are the elephant in the room because Hasbro wants the cash, but you can only suck so much lifeblood from the people that give you all that money in the first place, but again I think that's an argument for another day.

Magic is being played in record numbers in years past, to see such a sharp dropoff is disheartening and what had to be done, had to be done. Essentially, the people spoke with their attendance and Wizards complied.

 

[siddx]

The price of Jace was pretty big entry barrier because of the pricetag of a playset. Raffinity was everywhere because we didn't have an environment of ridiculously priced cards.

But regardless, I do think asking for people's heads on a platter for this is hyperbole and pretty ugly at that. Bannings in Standard aren't really the end all be all that people make it out to be. There's tons of other formats they're still legal in.

Edit: I think most peoples complaints were that in this format, at least if apparently you live in a area where the metagame reflects pro tournaments (Man I'd hate to live there) you had to play Caw-blade or bust. The thought of getting a couple of stoneforges (though honestly if you really wanted to play cawblade you had the bling for Jace haha) on the cheap was a tempting idea. Or I guess people really love white weenie that much

Like I hinted at in other posts, my issue is primarily that from what I had seen, the players themselves were learning how to "fix" the issue. We were seeing decks get tweaked to better deal with both SFM and Jace. So banning the cards seems like doing surgery on a wound that the patient has already spent time learning how to sow up himself. It might still cause some issues, but enough time passed without being tended to that the patient started to learn how to fix it himself. I thought Jace should have been banned months ago, and when it wasn't, I accepted that it was up to the players to figure out how to level the playing field, and at worst, it would rotate out in a few months. Hell I don't even play with Jace or SFM. The rare occasions I play standard I play ramp, knights, or phyrexian mana/kiln fiend. I stick with legacy and edh. So the bannings don't affect me at all. But like I said, I find it irritating that it seems like just as players are beginning to counter cawblade, thats when wizards steps in.

 

[Hero]

Stop acting like a condescending dickbag. The event deck was a nice way of getting your hands on two cards for a decent price. Now those two cards have been removed from play and its natural people are going to be upset.
The situation wasn't dire enough to require a banning. This wasn't academy level of absurdity where matches were decided by coin flips because you could combo out turn one. The card didn't need to get banned, people were finding ways to defeat it.

When the NPH event decks were shipped off from design to be printed SFM was only 6 dollars and only because of how ridiculous Cawblade has become did it really surge up. ZEN block had junk for equipment for it to fetch. Why you acting all butt hurt? SFM is still great in legacy so much that SFM -> Batterskull can win you matches in a format with Zoo, Goblins, Faeries, Merfolk.

And the situation was that badly, which Aaron Forsythe has even admitted to not only on a professional level of Magic attendance but even casual events like FNM and New Phyrexia Game Day. Did you even read the article? Let me quote it again for you:

I have seen many arguments flying around the Internet that nothing needs to be banned, as the format is very interactive and skill-testing right now. I suppose I agree with those descriptions of the format—the Top 16 in Singapore was loaded with talented names, and the same core group of guys keeps making the Top 8s of StarCity's events. As for interactivity, when you lose to Jace / Stoneforge decks, you still feel like you're playing Magic: you cast your creatures, attack and block, yet, if your opponent plays well enough, eventually fall under an avalanche of card advantage and efficient tutoring. Game play like that is a far cry from past Standard environments containing ban-worthy cards, wherein you might get decked by a Tolarian Academy–fueled Stroke of Genius on turn three, or die from 20 on turn four to a combination of Arcbound Ravager, Disciple of the Vault, and Cranial Plating, both frequently at the hands of less proficient players. Those games felt more random and less satisfying, and the outcry to do something about it was loud and clear.

It was less clear this time, so we were willing to see if players were in fact tolerant of a skill-rewarding one-deck metagame. The ultimate goal is player enjoyment, and if most people were enjoying themselves, we weren't going to take any rash actions based solely on the math of deck lists.

But then the formal complaints began pouring in, followed by a drop in attendance—pronounced at Pro Tour Qualifiers, shocking at the recent New Phyrexia Game Day, more subtle but just as real at Friday Night Magic—that we can't ignore. If people don't want to play the game, we need to fix it.

The only difference between Academy, Affinity and Cawblade is that two of them outright killed you in the first four turns of the game where the remaining one just drew the game out and won on the back of stupidly good card selection/advantage/tempo that no other color could compete with either directly in the form of answers or their own threats.

The only way to beat Cawblade was to use Cawblade itself. Even pros who are known to go with rogue decks succeeded that any other deck is significantly inferior to Cawblade. The only reason other decks were seemingly coming back in the past week or so was because the Caw mirror is skill intensive that many players dropped answers to regular aggro like Gideon and DoJ so they could maindeck more cards for the Caw mirror in game one rather than wait for sideboarding.

 

[V_Arnold]

Like I hinted at in other posts, my issue is primarily that from what I had seen, the players themselves were learning how to "fix" the issue. We were seeing decks get tweaked to better deal with both SFM and Jace. So banning the cards seems like doing surgery on a wound that the patient has already spent time learning how to sow up himself. It might still cause some issues, but enough time passed without being tended to that the patient started to learn how to fix it himself. I thought Jace should have been banned months ago, and when it wasn't, I accepted that it was up to the players to figure out how to level the playing field, and at worst, it would rotate out in a few months. Hell I don't even play with Jace or SFM. The rare occasions I play standard I play ramp, knights, or phyrexian mana/kiln fiend. I stick with legacy and edh. So the bannings don't affect me at all. But like I said, I find it irritating that it seems like just as players are beginning to counter cawblade, thats when wizards steps in.

If we were talking about a fighting game here, I would nod in acceptance, this however is a different kind of game. Therefore, I do not think that an elephant should be part of the metagame instead of having the possibility of x, y, z decks countering your and about what you gonna do with it. If there is only one insanely strong build in the middle of the metagame, that is just simply bad. The only question in the current standard environment is "how do you deal with Caw-Blade", even if you are using one. That is bad. The main question always should be "how do you do YOUR build better than the others do theirs". Removals and counter-measures should be universal, and the potential banning of Stoneforge Mystic/Jace could open up so many deck possibilities that it hurts to even think about it. So good that players manually patch themselves, but it is simply better to remove the elephant than to create a game where the main goal is to stay alive with an elephant in your bedroom.

 

[dschalter]

When the NPH event decks were shipped off from design to be printed SFM was only 6 dollars and only because of how ridiculous Cawblade has become did it really surge up. ZEN block had junk for equipment for it to fetch. Why you acting all butt hurt? SFM is still great in legacy so much that SFM -> Batterskull can win you matches in a format with Zoo, Goblins, Faeries, Merfolk.

And the situation was that badly, which Aaron Forsythe has even admitted to not only on a professional level of Magic attendance but even casual events like FNM and New Phyrexia Game Day. Did you even read the article? Let me quote it again for you:



The only difference between Academy, Affinity and Cawblade is that two of them outright killed you in the first four turns of the game where the remaining one just drew the game out and won on the back of stupidly good card selection/advantage/tempo that no other color could compete with either directly in the form of answers or their own threats.

The only way to beat Cawblade was to use Cawblade itself. Even pros who are known to go with rogue decks succeeded that any other deck is significantly inferior to Cawblade. The only reason other decks were seemingly coming back in the past week or so was because the Caw mirror is skill intensive that many players dropped answers to regular aggro like Gideon and DoJ so they could maindeck more cards for the Caw mirror in game one rather than wait for sideboarding.

Academy was much stronger than Caw-Blade, but it was banned out of existence before too long (though the effect on attendance was still catastrophic).

 

[Hero]

Academy was much stronger than Caw-Blade, but it was banned out of existence before too long (though the effect on attendance was still catastrophic).

Yes, in a vacuum Academy is the much stronger deck because it could literally ignore whatever the opponent was playing and win on turn one thanks to lotus petal and mox diamond. The comparison Aaron is making is that despite Cawblade not killing you the second the player dropped a SFM or JTMS it lead to a chain of card, board and tempo advantage. Even if they drop SFM and you kill it that turn they are still up one card because of the tutor effect and because of it they would only run a singleton equipment to hose whatever color/type of deck they were playing against. Same thing with JTMS. There are very few cards in Standard that can deal with JTMS at instant speed and even then if they've Brainstormed they're up in card advantage and you've wasted resources to kill that Jace when they have other things you need to be worried about. The longer a JTMS was on the board the less of a chance an opponent had to win the game.

 

[siddx]

If we were talking about a fighting game here, I would nod in acceptance, this however is a different kind of game. Therefore, I do not think that an elephant should be part of the metagame instead of having the possibility of x, y, z decks countering your and about what you gonna do with it. If there is only one insanely strong build in the middle of the metagame, that is just simply bad. The only question in the current standard environment is "how do you deal with Caw-Blade", even if you are using one. That is bad. The main question always should be "how do you do YOUR build better than the others do theirs". Removals and counter-measures should be universal, and the potential banning of Stoneforge Mystic/Jace could open up so many deck possibilities that it hurts to even think about it. So good that players manually patch themselves, but it is simply better to remove the elephant than to create a game where the main goal is to stay alive with an elephant in your bedroom.

True, and thats a good point. But there is also something to be said for fostering creativity by having players try to defeat that elephant. In the end it's just bad timing though.
And as far as Jace, I still say restricting it rather than banning it would have been better. I found I had no problem dealing with one jace. It was when I'd get rid of him, only to watch my opponent drop another one immediately after that it became absurd.

 

[dschalter]

It's also worth noting wrt the event decks that Wizards doesn't like printing sealed product with multiple expensive and Standard legal cards. They basically let one slip through the cracks with SFM- they didn't intend have two copies of a card that reached 30 dollars in a deck.

 

[Hero]

True, and thats a good point. But there is also something to be said for fostering creativity by having players try to defeat that elephant. In the end it's just bad timing though.
And as far as Jace, I still say restricting it rather than banning it would have been better. I found I had no problem dealing with one jace. It was when I'd get rid of him, only to watch my opponent drop another one immediately after that it became absurd.

Restriction only occurs in Vintage. Every other format it is an outright banning because 1 card in a 60 card deck will only make it so that whoever topdecks that singleton card has the advantage.

 

[Chojin]

Like I hinted at in other posts, my issue is primarily that from what I had seen, the players themselves were learning how to "fix" the issue. We were seeing decks get tweaked to better deal with both SFM and Jace. So banning the cards seems like doing surgery on a wound that the patient has already spent time learning how to sow up himself. It might still cause some issues, but enough time passed without being tended to that the patient started to learn how to fix it himself. I thought Jace should have been banned months ago, and when it wasn't, I accepted that it was up to the players to figure out how to level the playing field, and at worst, it would rotate out in a few months. Hell I don't even play with Jace or SFM. The rare occasions I play standard I play ramp, knights, or phyrexian mana/kiln fiend. I stick with legacy and edh. So the bannings don't affect me at all. But like I said, I find it irritating that it seems like just as players are beginning to counter cawblade, thats when wizards steps in.

To be honest the aggro decks were finally winning because the metagame was almost Cawblade Vs Cawblade. It's totally awesome that some people got that idea in mind where they could play aggro again. But to deny Cawblade's warping effect on the environment is well. I dunno man, stubborn?

I really wasn't seeing a counter to Cawblade, sure there was Exarch-Twin but that still was built on the back of Jace. Decks that were actually winning in the last PTQ again was because the metagame was basically Jace Vs Jace. I don't want to steal the wins away from the people that had the right idea to go rogue and aggro through it, but again, warping format, etc.

And yeah I don't play Jace and SFM. I'm stuck to my roguey self built stuff. I don't think people shouldn't Netdeck, but its not for me. I play a goofy ass White/Blue Venser deck with shroud up the ying yang cause people forgot to play pyroclasms and judgements But recently I've been playing a blue/red fat butted for pyroclasm against vampires lately. Seriously, I'm swimming in a sea of vampires, it annoys the ever living crap outta me

But yeah, I hear your side of the argument, problem is, again which has been reiterated, it was tourney attendance. That pretty much speaks the law and Wizards follows it.

 

[siddx]

Restriction only occurs in Vintage. Every other format it is an outright banning because 1 card in a 60 card deck will only make it so that whoever topdecks that singleton card has the advantage.

Hey if they are willing to make a bizarre ruling that you can use a banned card as long as you use the event deck, I figured they might make a bizarre ruling and restrict a card outside of vintage.

 

[siddx]

To be honest the aggro decks were finally winning because the metagame was almost Cawblade Vs Cawblade. It's totally awesome that some people got that idea in mind where they could play aggro again. But to deny Cawblade's warping effect on the environment is well. I dunno man, stubborn?

I really wasn't seeing a counter to Cawblade, sure there was Exarch-Twin but that still was built on the back of Jace. Decks that were actually winning in the last PTQ again was because the metagame was basically Jace Vs Jace. I don't want to steal the wins away from the people that had the right idea to go rogue and aggro through it, but again, warping format, etc.

And yeah I don't play Jace and SFM. I'm stuck to my roguey self built stuff. I don't think people shouldn't Netdeck, but its not for me. I play a goofy ass White/Blue Venser deck with shroud up the ying yang cause people forgot to play pyroclasms and judgements But recently I've been playing a blue/red fat butted for pyroclasm against vampires lately. Seriously, I'm swimming in a sea of vampires, it annoys the ever living crap outta me

But yeah, I hear your side of the argument, problem is, again which has been reiterated, it was tourney attendance. That pretty much speaks the law and Wizards follows it.

If tournie attendance was really that bad then it makes sense. I haven't been to a standard tournament in months as I've been trying to shift to legacy more (oh my poor wallet).
I think my other issue is that, with innistrad fairly close, waiting it out may have been a better option as banning cards can often have a fairly negative affect as well. It screams to more casual fans who don't know how the R&D etc... works that the company screwed up and made a mistake and sends a poor image. I guess they weighed the affect of keeping the cards in until august (its august right?) verse appearing to have once again fucked up to the people who just assume the sets are made a few months in advance. Weren't a huge group of employees fired after affinity got a bunch of cards banned? Or am I not remembering that correctly?

 

[Hero]

Hey if they are willing to make a bizarre ruling that you can use a banned card as long as you use the event deck, I figured they might make a bizarre ruling and restrict a card outside of vintage.

That was a mercy ruling for people who bought a new supplementary product in the hopes that they could show up to a FNM and do well which is what the War of Attrition deck can do. But as we've seen from people the majority of them were just ripped open for a quick and easy 2x SFM and some other jank. One of your assumptions is for FNM level of play and the other assumption is for PTQ and GP level of play where the stakes are much higher. I'm sorry if you can't comprehend that.

 

[V_Arnold]

Yeah, the problem would have immediately solved itself when Innistrad comes and Jace/SFM rotates out, but the image of "if Wizards messes something up, they wait out instead of addressing it" is worse than "Wizards banned 2 cards."

 

[siddx]

That was a mercy ruling for people who bought a new supplementary product in the hopes that they could show up to a FNM and do well which is what the War of Attrition deck can do. But as we've seen from people the majority of them were just ripped open for a quick and easy 2x SFM and some other jank. One of your assumptions is for FNM level of play and the other assumption is for PTQ and GP level of play where the stakes are much higher. I'm sorry if you can't comprehend that.

If we let you be king of the nerd pile will you shut the fuck up while the grown folks are attempting to have civil conversations free of douchebag comments? Or can you not comprehend that?

 

[Hero]

If we let you be king of the nerd pile will you shut the fuck up while the grown folks are attempting to have civil conversations free of douchebag comments? Or can you not comprehend that?

Not at all, because I find it rather interesting that you've just admitted you haven't played standard in months but you have such a strong opinion on a format that you haven't been involved with and when myself and others have tried to correct or illustrate what was wrong with the game all you've done is bring up points that don't work. It's not my fault you have an issue with the way you're reading my text and getting aggravated enough to use language that is not really befitting of "grown folks attempting civil discussion" would use. You're more than welcome to use the ignore function on me if you wish but maybe you should have a bit more knowledge of a subject before trying to hold such a weighted opinion on the matter.

 

[Chojin]

If tournie attendance was really that bad then it makes sense. I haven't been to a standard tournament in months as I've been trying to shift to legacy more (oh my poor wallet).
I think my other issue is that, with innistrad fairly close, waiting it out may have been a better option as banning cards can often have a fairly negative affect as well. It screams to more casual fans who don't know how the R&D etc... works that the company screwed up and made a mistake and sends a poor image. I guess they weighed the affect of keeping the cards in until august (its august right?) verse appearing to have once again fucked up to the people who just assume the sets are made a few months in advance. Weren't a huge group of employees fired after affinity got a bunch of cards banned? Or am I not remembering that correctly?

Innistrad is way too late. It comes out in October. Four more months of hemorrhaging in attendance would have been too much. Again its not just the current tournies not being gone to but the future ones. When people leave they leave for a long time, Necrosummer, Combo Winter, and Affinitypocalypse (haha) was very very damaging to WoTC as a whole. I mean 10 months of Caw Blade dominance would have really screwed with the system. Not only do you have crap to report for months on end but Caw Blade ho hum, you have 10 months + whatever it takes to bring the people that left to come back.

The thing is the current bannings will really have no effect on Innistrad + Scars synergy. I suppose there are people that don't know that it takes years to design a set and almost a full year of playtesting those future sets before they're released, but I'm fairly certain there really can't be people that think sets are whipped up as fast as an episode of south park.

As for people being fired over Mirrodin, I can't really recall if any were. I mean MaRo was the lead designer (I hear he's doing pretty well at WoTC ;P) and one of the other designers Brian Tinsman was lead designer of Rise of the Eldrazi.

Again, bannings really don't happen all that often. Wizards is and was never a ban happy company. Compare it to a recall on products. They don't happen all that often, and when they do, its not because its for us, its because its for the company cost wise ;P

 

[siddx]

Not at all, because I find it rather interesting that you've just admitted you haven't played standard in months but you have such a strong opinion on a format that you haven't been involved with and when myself and others have tried to correct or illustrate what was wrong with the game all you've done is bring up points that don't work. It's not my fault you have an issue with the way you're reading my text and getting aggravated enough to use language that is not really befitting of "grown folks attempting civil discussion" would use. You're more than welcome to use the ignore function on me if you wish but maybe you should have a bit more knowledge of a subject before trying to hold such a weighted opinion on the matter.

I'll take that as a no.
Everyone else in this thread has been having discussions and looking at both sides. Thats what people do, they discuss the various aspects of a subject. For you to come in here and immediately start acting like a condescending ass makes you an unwelcome participant. The only thing wrong with magic are people like you who behave like elitists pricks to other players when you don't agree with them regarding the game. Plenty of other people in here disagreed with me strongly and yet refrained from talking down to myself or other members. Because unlike you, they apparently understand that the real thing ruining magic are players such as yourself who treat everyone else with disdain when they don't immediately agree with you so called wisdom.

 

[Hero]

Innistrad is way too late. It comes out in October. Four more months of hemorrhaging in attendance would have been too much. Again its not just the current tournies not being gone to but the future ones. When people leave they leave for a long time, Necrosummer, Combo Winter, and Affinitypocalypse (haha) was very very damaging to WoTC as a whole. I mean 10 months of Caw Blade dominance would have really screwed with the system. Not only do you have crap to report for months on end but Caw Blade ho hum, you have 10 months + whatever it takes to bring the people that left to come back.

Not to mention this summer we have major tournament events happening. If people aren't excited to show up to tournaments they're certainly not going to be excited enough to go out and buy standard products like the upcoming m12.

The thing is the current bannings will really have no effect on Innistrad + Scars synergy. I suppose there are people that don't know that it takes years to design a set and almost a full year of playtesting those future sets before they're released, but I'm fairly certain there really can't be people that think sets are whipped up as fast as an episode of south park.

As for people being fired over Mirrodin, I can't really recall if any were. I mean MaRo was the lead designer (I hear he's doing pretty well at WoTC ;P) and one of the other designers Brian Tinsman was lead designer of Rise of the Eldrazi.


Again, bannings really don't happen all that often. Wizards is and was never a ban happy company. Compare it to a recall on products. They don't happen all that often, and when they do, its not because its for us, its because its for the company cost wise ;P

Yeah, I mean Zendikar became their best selling set of all time when it debuted and it sold out so quickly they had nothing left. It was almost until Worldwake before Zendikar became plentiful and by that point who knows how many potential sales they had missed out on. What people don't understand is that designing, developing, manufacturing, storing and then distributing a typical Mtg involves a huge amount of effort. The sets need to be printed months in advance. Right now Innistrad is most likely packaged sealed and stocked on pallets in their warehouse and the next set in that block is probably approaching the final tweaks and changes before being sent for actual production.

 

[siddx]

Innistrad is way too late. It comes out in October. Four more months of hemorrhaging in attendance would have been too much. Again its not just the current tournies not being gone to but the future ones. When people leave they leave for a long time, Necrosummer, Combo Winter, and Affinitypocalypse (haha) was very very damaging to WoTC as a whole. I mean 10 months of Caw Blade dominance would have really screwed with the system. Not only do you have crap to report for months on end but Caw Blade ho hum, you have 10 months + whatever it takes to bring the people that left to come back.

The thing is the current bannings will really have no effect on Innistrad + Scars synergy. I suppose there are people that don't know that it takes years to design a set and almost a full year of playtesting those future sets before they're released, but I'm fairly certain there really can't be people that think sets are whipped up as fast as an episode of south park.

As for people being fired over Mirrodin, I can't really recall if any were. I mean MaRo was the lead designer (I hear he's doing pretty well at WoTC ;P) and one of the other designers Brian Tinsman was lead designer of Rise of the Eldrazi.

Again, bannings really don't happen all that often. Wizards is and was never a ban happy company. Compare it to a recall on products. They don't happen all that often, and when they do, its not because its for us, its because its for the company cost wise ;P

Is it October? Damn, I probably wanted it to be August so bad I convinced myself it was coming then.
Yeah October is way too long. That's 4 more months of players working around cawblade. As much as I liked seeing some decks fight back, I don't think 4 months of doing so would have been fun for anyone. If it had been August I probably would have thought waiting it out made more sense but yeah, it will be interesting to see the changes in decks.

 

[Hero]

I'll take that as a no.
Everyone else in this thread has been having discussions and looking at both sides. Thats what people do, they discuss the various aspects of a subject. For you to come in here and immediately start acting like a condescending ass makes you an unwelcome participant. The only thing wrong with magic are people like you who behave like elitists pricks to other players when you don't agree with them regarding the game. Plenty of other people in here disagreed with me strongly and yet refrained from talking down to myself or other members. Because unlike you, they apparently understand that the real thing ruining magic are players such as yourself who treat everyone else with disdain when they don't immediately agree with you so called wisdom.

The forum is for intelligent discussion, meaning that there should be a general level of knowledge before engaging in said intellectual conversation about the topic at hand. I have no problem with people who aren't as knowledgeable on the subject as others but I do have a problem when those people use their own limited view of the situation and spout it off as fact. Again, this is your problem with my text and no one else's.

You proclaimed:

The situation wasn't dire enough to require a banning. This wasn't academy level of absurdity where matches were decided by coin flips because you could combo out turn one. The card didn't need to get banned, people were finding ways to defeat it.

You were quickly corrected but the question arises when you've said later:

If tournie attendance was really that bad then it makes sense. I haven't been to a standard tournament in months as I've been trying to shift to legacy more (oh my poor wallet).
I think my other issue is that, with innistrad fairly close, waiting it out may have been a better option as banning cards can often have a fairly negative affect as well. It screams to more casual fans who don't know how the R&D etc... works that the company screwed up and made a mistake and sends a poor image. I guess they weighed the affect of keeping the cards in until august (its august right?) verse appearing to have once again fucked up to the people who just assume the sets are made a few months in advance. Weren't a huge group of employees fired after affinity got a bunch of cards banned? Or am I not remembering that correctly?

How on earth could you possibly have a solid grasp and understanding of the meta and if there needed to be bannings when you've just admitted you haven't attended a standard tournament in months? Care to explain that?

And lastly there's this gem:

Is it October? Damn, I probably wanted it to be August so bad I convinced myself it was coming then.
Yeah October is way too long. That's 4 more months of players working around cawblade. As much as I liked seeing some decks fight back, I don't think 4 months of doing so would have been fun for anyone. If it had been August I probably would have thought waiting it out made more sense but yeah, it will be interesting to see the changes in decks.

You don't even know when rotation occurs, you don't know why restriction is reserved only for vintage, you haven't attended standard in months, you primarily stick to playing legacy and EDH but a page ago you were spouting off your opinion on the standard bannings as credible? Get real.

 

[Chojin]

Is it October? Damn, I probably wanted it to be August so bad I convinced myself it was coming then.
Yeah October is way too long. That's 4 more months of players working around cawblade. As much as I liked seeing some decks fight back, I don't think 4 months of doing so would have been fun for anyone. If it had been August I probably would have thought waiting it out made more sense but yeah, it will be interesting to see the changes in decks.

Totally, I would have felt it knee jerky if I thought it was going to rotate in two months as well. Honestly I don't think Scars as a set has really ANY breathing room as it is right now. All the cute little things WoTC wanted to do push with Scars really hasn't don't squat in the face of Zendikar block dominance in terms of ramping.

I LOOOOVE scars, I haven't drafted this much magic since Ravnica. I love building all kinds of scars weighted decks with zendikar splashes (mostly Everflowing chalice, god I wish that could be printed in a core set) I love proliferate, I love infect (though monoblue hahaha) I love metal craft. But honestly aside from Weak Weenie and Kuldotha red, there really isn't very many Scars weighted decks out there. Between SFM and Jace it really, really warped the meta like I've never seen it. Everyone kept saying, oh just wait for the next set, wait for the next set, and sure enough after the next set, Caw just got stronger.

As much as I liked Zendikar flavorwise, not to mention the breathless chance of opening up a black lotus for shits and giggles (seriously god please do that again Wizards) there's just so much degenerate shit in that whole block. Between Caw blade and standard, and showing and telling an Eldrazi, its just ridiculous.

Now that we have four months with a relatively clean slate (Twin gets a beating without Jace but is still pretty deadly and Valakut its going to rear its ugly head again) I honestly believe we're going to see much, much more diversity in decks. People like that, people like seeing lots of different decks played.

Its weird though, I'm really interested (and I follow a lot of them on Twitter) on how the Pros are going to weigh in on this. Honestly they loved this standard season. Magic is like Poker really. And Poker is all about minimizing chaos as much as possible. Magic is no different, if you can minimize the amounts of decks running around, it will minimize more unknowns for you and be able to use that information better to defeat your opponent. There's one, kinda teeny tiny difference between Pros and your average FNMer: Pros do this for a living. They pay the bills by minimizing chaos. They pay their mortgage on the back of Magic. Anything that can give them an edge on that is welcome. FNMers want to have a fun night out playing cards they like playing with. And as much as WoTC needs the Pro tour to keep magic healthy, they also need the FMN crowd who want to play goofy fat green creatures.

I'm 31 years old. I know in my heart as much as I love this game, and I've never loved it more than I have in the past 5 years in the 14 I've been playing, I'm never really going to be in the pro tour. I know we all have our shot. Honestly every season there's a sweetheart tale about an up and comer who lives the dream. Maybe if I ever really sit down and focus on this game, tell my fiance the wedding's on hold, somehow have a job that will let me travel whenver I need to play Magic, I could live that dream. But its not my dream. I just want to play the game that's fun. So I'm going to side with the people that I think are most important to the game: The kids who buy packs. Not the traders, not the collectors, not the pros. But the kids who go to their local card shop, K-mart, what have you and buy booster packs. They spoke, they didn't want to play in an environment where they had to hustle their mom for 400 bucks just to compete with some cardboard. Standard honestly should never have this barrier of entry that exists today. I know I keep going back to mythic rarity, but its really going to go this way if we keep seeing standard cards being that goddamned expensive. There are a ton of other formats where its honestly reasonable for a high price barrier of entry, but FMN's are primarily standard, most FMNers are school kids who maybe can get a booster a week, trade big Timmy cards with each other.

Honestly? When its all said and done? It's two cards out of over 15,000. I think there's enough cards and will be enough cards in the future for us to build fun, competitive decks. Caw-blade is one of the most amazing, well tuned decks, and it will forever be part of Magic's History. But we gotta put the dog down for the greater good. It'll sting for now, but there's always Extended rearing its ugly head

 

[Hero]

Totally, I would have felt it knee jerky if I thought it was going to rotate in two months as well. Honestly I don't think Scars as a set has really ANY breathing room as it is right now. All the cute little things WoTC wanted to do push with Scars really hasn't don't squat in the face of Zendikar block dominance in terms of ramping.

I LOOOOVE scars, I haven't drafted this much magic since Ravnica. I love building all kinds of scars weighted decks with zendikar splashes (mostly Everflowing chalice, god I wish that could be printed in a core set) I love proliferate, I love infect (though monoblue hahaha) I love metal craft. But honestly aside from Weak Weenie and Kuldotha red, there really isn't very many Scars weighted decks out there. Between SFM and Jace it really, really warped the meta like I've never seen it. Everyone kept saying, oh just wait for the next set, wait for the next set, and sure enough after the next set, Caw just got stronger.

As much as I liked Zendikar flavorwise, not to mention the breathless chance of opening up a black lotus for shits and giggles (seriously god please do that again Wizards) there's just so much degenerate shit in that whole block. Between Caw blade and standard, and showing and telling an Eldrazi, its just ridiculous.

Now that we have four months with a relatively clean slate (Twin gets a beating without Jace but is still pretty deadly and Valakut its going to rear its ugly head again) I honestly believe we're going to see much, much more diversity in decks. People like that, people like seeing lots of different decks played.

Its weird though, I'm really interested (and I follow a lot of them on Twitter) on how the Pros are going to weigh in on this. Honestly they loved this standard season. Magic is like Poker really. And Poker is all about minimizing chaos as much as possible. Magic is no different, if you can minimize the amounts of decks running around, it will minimize more unknowns for you and be able to use that information better to defeat your opponent. There's one, kinda teeny tiny difference between Pros and your average FNMer: Pros do this for a living. They pay the bills by minimizing chaos. They pay their mortgage on the back of Magic. Anything that can give them an edge on that is welcome. FNMers want to have a fun night out playing cards they like playing with. And as much as WoTC needs the Pro tour to keep magic healthy, they also need the FMN crowd who want to play goofy fat green creatures.

I'm 31 years old. I know in my heart as much as I love this game, and I've never loved it more than I have in the past 5 years in the 14 I've been playing, I'm never really going to be in the pro tour. I know we all have our shot. Honestly every season there's a sweetheart tale about an up and comer who lives the dream. Maybe if I ever really sit down and focus on this game, tell my fiance the wedding's on hold, somehow have a job that will let me travel whenver I need to play Magic, I could live that dream. But its not my dream. I just want to play the game that's fun. So I'm going to side with the people that I think are most important to the game: The kids who buy packs. Not the traders, not the collectors, not the pros. But the kids who go to their local card shop, K-mart, what have you and buy booster packs. They spoke, they didn't want to play in an environment where they had to hustle their mom for 400 bucks just to compete with some cardboard. Standard honestly should never have this barrier of entry that exists today. I know I keep going back to mythic rarity, but its really going to go this way if we keep seeing standard cards being that goddamned expensive. There are a ton of other formats where its honestly reasonable for a high price barrier of entry, but FMN's are primarily standard, most FMNers are school kids who maybe can get a booster a week, trade big Timmy cards with each other.

Honestly? When its all said and done? It's two cards out of over 15,000. I think there's enough cards and will be enough cards in the future for us to build fun, competitive decks. Caw-blade is one of the most amazing, well tuned decks, and it will forever be part of Magic's History. But we gotta put the dog down for the greater good. It'll sting for now, but there's always Extended rearing its ugly head

I'm hoping Extended as we know it dies a horrible death and that Modern replaces it. So far the feedback from mtgo has been fantastic.

 

[Chojin]

I'm hoping Extended as we know it dies a horrible death and that Modern replaces it. So far the feedback from mtgo has been fantastic.

Modern all over my face. I will give Modern a reach around and cuddle with her afterwards. Then I will cook Modern breakfast and tell Modern I love her. Then I'm going to have to explain Modern to my future wife but hopefully she'll understand. After that I'm going to go to Borneo and marry Modern along with my fiance. Then while running from the law me and Modern will have cyberspace in MTGO land to give birth to many decks while my meatwife will birth my children and they can play with their half-siblings on MTGO as well. Then when we get old Modern wills till be Modern even after my meatwife is old and saggy. Modern will be eternal and even when I'm dead she'll still live because she's Eternal. Then I will be reborn and the cycle of Modern and Chojin love will live forever until the gravitational collapse of the universe happens and Modern and Chojin will be reborn in another universe, or the great rip will happen and Modern will still be around because Modern is Eternal.

 

[V_Arnold]

Wow, just reread last page, Zaraki, the tears are intense, huh!
Sorry, do not want to poke in after that, but really, it was to be expected to happen. Bitchin' about a 25$ buy is nice, but really, it is not that big of a deal. That money is spent on one movie with your girlfriend and if that sucks, you do not howl at the moon for hours, I guess.

Also, Batterskull is fine, the problem is within the SFM, not with the tools that are perfectly fine with the proper costs paid.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Wow, just reread last page, Zaraki, the tears are intense, huh!
Sorry, do not want to poke in after that, but really, it was to be expected to happen. Bitchin' about a 25$ buy is nice, but really, it is not that big of a deal. That money is spent on one movie with your girlfriend and if that sucks, you do not howl at the moon for hours, I guess.

Also, Batterskull is fine, the problem is within the SFM, not with the tools that are perfectly fine with the proper costs paid.

Eh, I didn't lose any sleep last night. (I actually overslept my alarm ) But it's just douche in my opinion when after all of wizards crying and multiple articles about how they don't like banning cards and the reasons why with people "losing money" essentially by banning the card after spending money to get it and then they ban this a week after it comes out. Just makes all their articles explaining banning feel very fake that they allowed the timing the way they did. They're the company and purposefully refused to change it to avoid a problem like this. It's said that they then try to argue from a perspective of the was nothing they could do like they're the victim in it. Just disappointing is all.

 

[noquarter]

Yay for the banning. Was sick of seeing SFM all last weekend when I played and can't wait for FNM since I know I will not be opening up to CawBlade as I have so many times.

I did buy two of the white Event decks and really don't mind. SFM will have a spot in Legacy and in my cube and EDH deck, so will still get to play it. Also hope JTMS keeps going down, I'd like to pick up a playset plus a couple more, it's a good card, just too expensive for me to pick up.

 

[V_Arnold]

Eh, I didn't lose any sleep last night. (I actually overslept my alarm ) But it's just douche in my opinion when after all of wizards crying and multiple articles about how they don't like banning cards and the reasons why with people "losing money" essentially by banning the card after spending money to get it and then they ban this a week after it comes out. Just makes all their articles explaining banning feel very fake that they allowed the timing the way they did. They're the company and purposefully refused to change it to avoid a problem like this. It's said that they then try to argue from a perspective of the was nothing they could do like they're the victim in it. Just disappointing is all.

Well, that was an event deck. It is not a friggin "hey, It is 25$ for TWO Mystics" as many people saw it - anyone with a little patience would have known that every single sign pointed to a potential banning, and the bannings are always around this time, not before, not later.

So patience would have helped you avoid buying that deck. But in the first place, buying that deck for Mystics only is not a good decision, but the card is still usable to legacy/extended/modern, and there are tons of other cards in the deck, so it is not really a douchy move or anything: nobody forced you to buy that deck...

Otherwise, Wizards is a huge company at the end of the day. They are moving forward, but not lightspeed forward, expecting that would be not a reality imho. Did not sound to me like they were victimizing themselves, it is pure fact that nowadays, every single abusable combo gets augmented and polished to the level when it becomes an insane power on the table - this is what happens when you have all the online resources and the millions theorycrafting all the time.

My conclusions for this ban:
In the future, I will continue to avoid too pricey king cards like plague (Jace!) : )

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Well, that was an event deck. It is not a friggin "hey, It is 25$ for TWO Mystics" as many people saw it - anyone with a little patience would have known that every single sign pointed to a potential banning, and the bannings are always around this time, not before, not later.

So patience would have helped you avoid buying that deck. But in the first place, buying that deck for Mystics only is not a good decision, but the card is still usable to legacy/extended/modern, and there are tons of other cards in the deck, so it is not really a douchy move or anything: nobody forced you to buy that deck...

Otherwise, Wizards is a huge company at the end of the day. They are moving forward, but not lightspeed forward, expecting that would be not a reality imho. Did not sound to me like they were victimizing themselves, it is pure fact that nowadays, every single abusable combo gets augmented and polished to the level when it becomes an insane power on the table - this is what happens when you have all the online resources and the millions theorycrafting all the time.

My conclusions for this ban:
In the future, I will continue to avoid too pricey king cards like plague (Jace!) : )

I agree to a large extent but they are a huge company that controls everything to do with the game. Why not delay the release until after the bannings? It still has uses and value so it's not like it would drop $.50 and absolutely no one would buy the white event deck. When they act like this was all they could do it just feels pretty douchey on their part because there were things they could do they just decided not to.

 

[y2dvd]

*snippet

*slowclaps

Don't have a say in the matter since I don't play tournies much, but if it's hurting attendance, I can see why they need to ban SFM.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

*slowclaps

Don't have a say in the matter since I don't play tournies much, but if it's hurting attendance, I can see why they need to ban SFM.

Just to play devil's advocate, you don't know how much of that was Jace and how much was SFM. I've heard tons of more bitching of Jace than SFM. Jace is essentially universally hated.

 

[traveler]

Jace is the more powerful card in a vacuum, but he only smoothed out the deck's draws and provided some inevitability. It was stone forge, when paired with feast and famine and bskull, that did the truly degenerate things.

 

[V_Arnold]

Just to play devil's advocate, you don't know how much of that was Jace and how much was SFM. I've heard tons of more bitching of Jace than SFM. Jace is essentially universally hated.

SFM is not that good in a standard when the main theme is not artifacts and equipments. Which is what Scars was/is all about.

 

[Ronabo]

So Wizards doesn't issue errata on cards?

When I played L5R for 10 years, instead or outright banning something they'd nerf it. Sometimes this totally made the card "the way it was intended," but mostly it was simple stuff as cost.

So instead of banning Stone Forge Mystic couldn't they just had increased the cost of the ability?

 

[The Technomancer]

Yeah, I will be all over modern. It will let me use cards from my favorite sets again (Rav, TS, Lorwyn)

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

So Wizards doesn't issue errata on cards?

When I played L5R for 10 years, instead or outright banning something they'd nerf it. Sometimes this totally made the card "the way it was intended," but mostly it was simple stuff as cost.

So instead of banning Stone Forge Mystic couldn't they just had increased the cost of the ability?

It wouldn't be worth it. You'd have to reprint it then and it makes no sense to do that with a out of print series that will rotate out pretty soon. Also, the rare instance that they fixed reprinted a card it made the other cards unusable IIRC. I could be mistaken on the last part though.

Yeah, I will be all over modern. It will let me use cards from my favorite sets again (Rav, TS, Lorwyn)

Lorwyn sounds like it was a pretty awesome set, wish I had played then.

So does this confirm we are getting baby Jace for M12 then? Was jace that overpowered that early on that planning M12 in advance wouldn't have him printed by "accident"?

 

[Ronabo]

L5R rarely reprinted cards that had errata issued. The tournament player base was small enough to know the errata on the small amount of cards that had them.

In this day and age of internet I'm sure MTG tourney players could keep up on that stuff.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

L5R rarely reprinted cards that had errata issued. The tournament player base was small enough to know the errata on the small amount of cards that had them.

In this day and age of internet I'm sure MTG tourney players could keep up on that stuff.

It still makes it more convuluted to have the card actually be something that's not on the card. That is a very hamfisted attempt to fix things. I think I'd prefer the ban.

 

[V_Arnold]

L5R is the best card game out there, btw, do not even remind me of THOSE days. Damn, I had all the different exp Ikoma Tsanuris T_T

 

[The Technomancer]

So Wizards doesn't issue errata on cards?

When I played L5R for 10 years, instead or outright banning something they'd nerf it. Sometimes this totally made the card "the way it was intended," but mostly it was simple stuff as cost.

So instead of banning Stone Forge Mystic couldn't they just had increased the cost of the ability?

Yeah, they do errata stuff but almost never functional nerfs. Its usually either for misprints or for "we designed it in the spirit of one rule, but we worded it wrong and now people use it like this instead"

 

[siddx]

The best part of all of this is one of my friends just picked up two Jace's a week ago and is probably now screaming at his computer screen knowing he could have saved 50 bucks by waiting. I should have known considering every time he makes a big purchase the cards seem to drop in value after. It's like he's cursed.

Speaking of, collectors out there should start picking up high powered cards from 8th up to Time Spiral for when wizards inevitably replaces extended with modern magic. I'm sure prices will jump quite a bit.

 

[Leunam]

Anyone looking to get rid of some Knight of the Reliquary? I need 3 more and I don't really care which version.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Would modern have Jace and SFM removed also?

SFM already cut in half to $8...

 

[The Technomancer]

Would modern have Jace and SFM removed also?

SFM already cut in half to $8...

Unlikely, unless they dominate Modern like they did Standard, and I highly doubt that. I guarantee that Ravager and Skullclamp will still be banned though.

 

[Castor Krieg]

Do I get this right? Scars of Mirrodin block will fall out of rotation next year in the Fall with first release of the post-Innistrad block?

 

[Leunam]

Yep. Only for Standard, though.

 

[The Technomancer]

Do I get this right? Scars of Mirrodin block will fall out of rotation next year in the Fall with first release of the post-Innistrad block?

Yes.

 

[An-Det]

I sure hope Modern/Overextended comes to fruition for paper magic. The formats look fantastic.

So Wizards doesn't issue errata on cards?

When I played L5R for 10 years, instead or outright banning something they'd nerf it. Sometimes this totally made the card "the way it was intended," but mostly it was simple stuff as cost.

So instead of banning Stone Forge Mystic couldn't they just had increased the cost of the ability?

Errata is kept to a minimum, and is usually for older cards or misprints (like some Kamigawa card that left off "until end of turn" for some ability). Menendia did a great podcast focusing on errata a few days ago with Doug Linn: http://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/06/so-many-insane-plays-vintage-podcast-1/

 

[Chojin]

Unlikely, unless they dominate Modern like they did Standard, and I highly doubt that. I guarantee that Ravager and Skullclamp will still be banned though.

Hypergenesis is probably going to be the first thing banned on the list when Modern gets official. It's throw up in your mouth inducing to what it does with stuff like Cascade.

Ravager is not banned in Modern. Ravager these days has many, many ways to deal with today unlike when Darksteel came out. Skullclamp thankfully is and will forever be because its a degenerate piece of shit.

This is what was banned for the community cup:

Ancient Den
Seat of the Synod
Vault of Whispers
Great Furnace
Tree of Tales
Chrome Mox
Dark Depths
Sensei's Divining Top
Skullclamp
Sword of the Meek
Umezawa's Jitte
Golgari Grave-Troll

The Artilands honestly I don't think are THAT much of a problem, but they're acceleration and Wizzies hates that. Thankfully they threw a bone with Darksteel citadel.

Honestly to "fix" affinity all you'd need to do is ban Disciple of the Vault and Cranial Plating. Disciple is is just gross and Plating is a topdeck I win card. 2 for 1 artifact hate after Mirrodin is in droves and extended has shown affinity is not the boogeyman we need to fear.

Top I know why is banned. It's balls scratchingly boring when Top is around. Hell I adore the top because its just powerful when used right. On Magic Online top is annoying, I use it myself but I'm still in automode if I see someone drop a top thats not me I get all huffy and sigh because I know the dude is going to activate it, and then forgot he activated it and reactivate it again, and then activate it again 3 more times at the end of my turn just for good measure. But the thing slows games down so bad especially when used right, which is to shuffle away crap that you aren't going to want to draw. This slows paper games down to a crawl. Top, peek at the 3, sac land shuffle, peek at the top 3, shuffle effect, peek at the top three, shuffle effect, peek at the top 3 at the end of someones turn eats the living shit out of time. And thats why it was banned.

Sword of the meek was banned because thropter foundry was barfing up infinite life and tokens in a two card combo where both the combo cards cost 2. It got more barfy when it was combined with Dark Depths. Now here's the thing, honestly neither one of the decks is unbeatable by themselves, but together it was pretty tough. If it were up to me and I had to decide which deck I would cut out, it would be the thropter combo rather than the depth combo. My reasoning is that I'd rather cut engine cards which lead to brokeness. Yes a 20/20 indestructible Creature is scary but its ONE creature. I'd rather deal with ONE creature than a mess of them. Its not like it has trample, its not like its not a token. You can chump block, bounce, and legend rule that guy all day.

Jitte :| Well, on one hand Jitte is a motherfucking annoying card if you plan on playing with creatures, and Wizards loves when we play with creatures. But Jitte wouldn't be broken in Modern format. Honestly the only format Jitte truly was broken was draft, but honestly whats not broken in draft I really hated it when people opened a jitte in draft. And then I loved it so much when I finally opened one in draft

Chrome mox is sad it has to be banned, but it shows you what Wizards has intentions for in a format. Again I find it to be more of an experimental ban, I think Wizards wants to differentiate Legacy in Modern in that Modern won't be a quick draw kind of magic that the other Eternal Formats are. What I mean is that they want to slow down the explosive goldfishing and Mox providing that extra mana at that cost would be very quick. It sucks to ban things everyone loves because of its legacy (A mox is a MOX is A MOX!) but in the end, a mox is a mox, when its cast, bad things happen.

Gravetroll was a weird banning and I think it really was the most "experimenty" of the bans. If Wizards really wanted to hate out dredge I think either Narcomeba (really :| what else are you going to use it for, if you say anti-mill I laugh) or Bridge from Below should get the axe instead. The fact both were future future cards anyway shows how not even sure if serious, yeah just get rid of them please.

I don't really want to see a huge ban list for Modern. I hate seeing ban lists. People like to play with cards. Not everyone is going to turn Thropter Foundry into a dickcheese machine, not everyone plays affinity exclusively with artifact lands, not everyone

As for Jace and SFM. Eh... I don't see it being banned in Modern. Again you have access to split-second and tons of other good stuff to take care of them. The problem with current standard is there's not really a way for colors to deal with permanents like Planeswalkers. You had pithing needle and O-Ring in the last standard environment. Now we have dinky weak creatures, a discard spell that doesn't do anything if the planeswalker is in play, and a green vindicate that gives them a creature.

SFM? Again there's so many things to deal with her in Modern she'll be strong, but not degenerate like in standard is now.

So does this confirm we are getting baby Jace for M12 then? Was jace that overpowered that early on that planning M12 in advance wouldn't have him printed by "accident"?

Actually the rumors is that we're getting a third iteration of Jace. In fact its looking like we're getting new Garruks, Jaces, and Chandra's in M12.