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[The Technomancer]

Now, whether it truly deserved the ban from a balance perspective is another matter and I don't give wizards a pass for not catching this stuff; I just don't think it merits pure outrage.

The first ability isn't so bad, but the second one just screams "waiting to be broken" to me, even when I first saw it. Circumventing mana almost never ends well. I'm honestly surprised that Master Transmuter turned out as tame as it did in Alara constructed.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

I can't find an exact figure or quote, ut I recall reading that Sfm was worth $6 when the event decks were made and, if you read the article, you'll see that Forsyth expected batterskull to make Sfm a viable card, not break it, so obviously design for it was done before caw took over.

Also, the main price drop for Sfm has already happened due to the event decks. The card won't be worthless as it is played in legacy and will be played on modern if that becomes a reality. Lastly, would you like wizards to place the value of consumers "stock" in cards over the health of the game? I bought two event decks and I won't complain about losing value on principle- objecting on those grounds would make me the same as proponents of the reserved list, which is obviously horrible for the game.

Now, whether it truly deserved the ban from a balance perspective is another matter and I don't give wizards a pass for not catching this stuff; I just don't think it merits pure outrage.

If wizards was so worried about the game why not ban it before the event decks? Banning it after the event decks are out for a week is pretty terrible. And no, a lot of people only play standard so it's wasted money. If it costs them money they won't ban it but if it costs us money they're fine. The notion of them looking out for us and enjoying the game is laughable. They could have at least extended it so people get a use out of it. How much longer until it rotates out? I thought Innistrad is like August or something right?

 

[Chojin]

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/148

Hope Jace drops enough that I can buy it below $25. That'd be gravy.

Considering they're still powerhouses in Legacy not to mention Extended, don't hold your breath. They'll only go up in price (Edit: over time)

 

[An-Det]

The writing has been on the wall for a while now, and the event decks were finalized long before Blade took over. It sucks to be out some money on them, but this was needed.

Lastly, would you like wizards to place the value of consumers "stock" in cards over the health of the game?

This sentence makes me so sad since that's exactly what the reserved list is.

 

[The Technomancer]

The writing has been on the wall for a while now, and the event decks were finalized long before Blade took over. It sucks to be out some money on them, but this was needed.

Yeah, like ZK is saying though they really should have announced this before the decks went on sale though.

And wizards many times over has said the reserved list was a bad idea, but a promise was a promise.

Bannings suck, but its always about the health of the game. PTQ attendance was at an all time low. Granted the recent win with Vampires was a small blip in an otherwise Jace/SFM ocean; however, WoTC is always going to worry about the bottom line. Nobody playing magic, no more magic, no more fun

Yup, problem here isn't the move itself its the timing.

 

[Chojin]

The writing has been on the wall for a while now, and the event decks were finalized long before Blade took over. It sucks to be out some money on them, but this was needed.



This sentence makes me so sad since that's exactly what the reserved list is.

And wizards many times over has said the reserved list was a bad idea, but a promise was a promise.

Bannings suck, but its always about the health of the game. PTQ attendance was at an all time low. Granted the recent win with Vampires was a small blip in an otherwise Jace/SFM ocean; however, WoTC is always going to worry about the bottom line. Nobody playing magic, no more magic, no more fun

 

[traveler]

Wizards has a standard ban list update twice a year. They were banned after the decks because this is when b&r updates happen. Disingenuous, yes, but that's how it's always been.

As to why they didn't simply let caw blade live out it's short days in peace, I dunno. Even more reason to have a more flexible ban schedule.

The writing has been on the wall for a while now, and the event decks were finalized long before Blade took over. It sucks to be out some money on them, but this was needed.



This sentence makes me so sad since that's exactly what the reserved list is.

Yup. I note as much in the following sentence. They're legally bound by that one, but at least they recognize it as a failure and refuse to place the collector before the player elsewhere.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Wizards has a standard ban list update twice a year. They were banned after the decks because this is when b&r updates happen. Disingenuous, yes, but that's how it's always been.

As to why they didn't simply let caw blade live out it's short days in peace, I dunno. Even more reason to have a more flexible ban schedule.



Yup. I note as much in the following sentence. They're legally bound by that one, but at least they recognize it as a failure and refuse to place the collector before the player elsewhere.

If that was the problem then why not delay the release of the event decks by a week or two? It's just terrible by them all around. Why is it only once a year and has to be that unflexible? It's a thing they created, at least let people know it's banned in standard before the decks go on sale. It's not like it will drop to a $.50 rare but it will likely go down with being unavailable in standard and for standard only players it's a rather large kick in the balls for buying their event deck.

 

[kudos.]

Glad to see Jace drop $25 within an hour. As a casual player, I love when powerful cards get a lot cheaper.

 

[traveler]

All good questions. I know wizards updates infrequently partially to make sure they don't jump the gun with bans, but I don't see why they shouldn't be able to ban whenever they please and just exercise some caution when it comes to knee jerk reactions.

Edit: oh wow. People are selling jace too fast. If he drops a little further, I guess I'll stock up. There are other formats than standard, people. Jace WILL eventually climb in value as we move further away from ww and he is played in more and more older formats.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Glad to see Jace drop $25 within an hour. As a casual player, I love when powerful cards get a lot cheaper.

Where do you see that?

All good questions. I know wizards updates infrequently partially to make sure they don't jump the gun with bans, but I don't see why they shouldn't be able to ban whenever they please and just exercise some caution when it comes to knee jerk reactions.

Or like I said if there are cards like that on the chopping block delay the event decks. I doubt no one would buy them it just wouldn't be the ridiculousness it turned out to be. Why does it have to be rigid with gameday? They make the game, they really can't do something as simple as that? Just really frustrating to say the least.

 

[The Technomancer]

All good questions. I know wizards updates infrequently partially to make sure they don't jump the gun with bans, but I don't see why they shouldn't be able to ban whenever they please and just exercise some caution when it comes to knee jerk reactions.

The biggest thing is that too many bans lead to decreased faith in the product. Why play if there's a chance next week that your favorite deck will suddenly be unplayable because it was too good. They really reaaaally want to only ban when the card in question is making swathes of players unhappy.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

The biggest thing is that too many bans lead to decreased faith in the product. Why play if there's a chance next week that your favorite deck will suddenly be unplayable because it was too good. They really reaaaally want to only ban when the card in question is making swathes of players unhappy.

We'll see what happens and I understand that's why they do but I don't see how this doesn't hurt faith in the product a lot. I have to wait a couple weeks after event decks to make sure they don't ban the cards people are buying them for? And then likely have to pay over MSRP to secondhand sellers? Like I said I understand that's their reasoning but they sure didn't build any faith in their product by completely killing the event deck the week after it came out. (Yes you can use it if exactly as you bought it but not many people do)

 

[siddx]

I still don't believe SFM is as powerful as people think. Players were figuring out ways to beat Cawblade, as I noted, the last standard open saw Vampires win it all and saw just as many red decks in the top 8 as cawblades. Players were starting to come up with strategies to make other decks viable and it was beginning to work. Instead of trusting players, wizards just decided to jump in and play nanny.

The cawblade situation wasn't even remotely close to the affinity/academy decks from mirrodin/uzra's block and the hell those decks made playing type 2.

 

[TheSeks]

Bans seem reasonable to me. The exception for the Mystic is a bit weird, is the deck okay unmodded in a pro-competitive level? Or is it pure crap and that's why Zero is mostly pissed about it (besides the wasted money)?

 

[The Technomancer]

Hm, if Jace prices drop low enough I might finally invest in one, just to have it.

I still don't believe SFM is as powerful as people think. Players were figuring out ways to beat Cawblade, as I noted, the last standard open saw Vampires win it all and saw just as many red decks in the top 8 as cawblades. Players were starting to come up with strategies to make other decks viable and it was beginning to work. Instead of trusting players, wizards just decided to jump in and play nanny.

The cawblade situation wasn't even remotely close to the affinity/academy decks from mirrodin/uzra's block and the hell those decks made playing type 2.

I don't follow much constructed play, but how bad was Batterskull? Thats the other one they were talking about.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Bans seem reasonable to me. The exception for the Mystic is a bit weird, is the deck okay unmodded in a pro-competitive level? Or is it pure crap and that's why Zero is mostly pissed about it (besides the wasted money)?

Eh, it's as good as the other event decks I guess... The deck itself really isn't that good since the equipment you can search for is mostly crap and cheaper to put out without using SFM's ability. It's darksteel axe, flayer husk, and sword of venegence IIRC for equipments.

 

[siddx]

Bans seem reasonable to me. The exception for the Mystic is a bit weird, is the deck okay unmodded in a pro-competitive level? Or is it pure crap and that's why Zero is mostly pissed about it (besides the wasted money)?

It might get you a middle of the pack standing. Something like 2-4 or 1-3. It's good enough to beat the less competitive decks but would get torn to shreds by cawblade, vampires, mono red etc...

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

It might get you a middle of the pack standing. Something like 2-4 or 1-3. It's good enough to beat the less competitive decks but would get torn to shreds by cawblade, vampires, mono red etc...

Pretty much, depending on how competitive the place is where you play you won't get destroyed like an intro deck or something but you won't be winning anything. Middle of the pack on average sounds about right if not lower.

 

[Chojin]

Hm, if Jace prices drop low enough I might finally invest in one, just to have it.


I don't follow much constructed play, but how bad was Batterskull? Thats the other one they were talking about.

Batterskull is what really took the cake. Tutoring for it and then being able to drop it the next turn is nuts. It basically took any real chance aggro had against Cawblade. The fact you could bounce it back to evade destruction and/or redeploy it with a dude attatched was bonkers as well.

Without SFM Batterskull isn't as nuts, it costs five and five to equip, price is gonna drop.

Honestly I didn't see what the problem with Mythic rarity was when first announced, but after seeing all of these jacked up prices soley based on rarity reminds me of what my friend told me about Yu-Gi-Oh. Apparently there's some crazy rarities that made certain cards skyrocket upwards to thousands and tens of thousdands of dollars.

I see a trend with Mythic rares these days as well, I mean not to ridiculous prices like that, but I've seen stinker Mythics that nobody uses stay at a flat 5 bucks just cause they're mythic. It's good for WoTC because means more packs sold, but in the long run, it drains the the buyers of their products.

 

[TheSeks]

It might get you a middle of the pack standing. Something like 2-4 or 1-3. It's good enough to beat the less competitive decks but would get torn to shreds by cawblade, vampires, mono red etc...

So, basically for casual play it's decent. But pro-level, it sucks? :/

Someone give me a cliff-notes of what "Standard" means/includes. I honestly don't play Magic outside of Casual so I'm not too fussed about the bans and from their reasoning and the (apparent) drops in player count/attendance, it seems reasonable to me to ban Mystic. Jace needed (IMO) to be banned, however. But this late (if it's being rotated out of Standard?) in the game is really funky and weird.

 

[The Technomancer]

So, basically for casual play it's decent. But pro-level, it sucks? :/

Someone give me a cliff-notes of what "Standard" means/includes. I honestly don't play Magic outside of Casual so I'm not too fussed about the bans and from their reasoning and the (apparent) drops in player count/attendance, it seems reasonable to me to ban Mystic. Jace needed (IMO) to be banned, however. But this late (if it's being rotated out of Standard?) in the game is really funky and weird.

In a specific sense Standard includes the last two years worth of cards. So its currently Zendikar, Worldwake, Eldrazi, M11, Scars, Besieged, and New Phyrexia. When M12 becomes legal then that will be added to the list as well. But when Innstrad comes out then Zendikar, Worldwake, Eldrazi and M11 all leave at the same time.

I don't know the current deck archtypes that well, someone else can cover them better.

 

[Chojin]

So, basically for casual play it's decent. But pro-level, it sucks? :/

Someone give me a cliff-notes of what "Standard" means/includes. I honestly don't play Magic outside of Casual so I'm not too fussed about the bans and from their reasoning and the (apparent) drops in player count/attendance, it seems reasonable to me to ban Mystic. Jace needed (IMO) to be banned, however. But this late (if it's being rotated out of Standard?) in the game is really funky and weird.

Standard is the current block plus the last block and the Core Set.

Today's standard is:

-Zendikar Block (Zendikar and Worldwake) + Rise of the Eldzrazi if you consider it a whole 'nother block.
-Magic 2011 Core Set
-Scars of Mirrodin Block (Scars of Mirrodin, Mirrodin Besieged, New Phyrexia)

New Core sets come out every Summer, next month we get Magic 2012, Magic 2011 rotates when the next fall set comes in. This allows for a small window for two core sets to be legal. I know its gets weird but in the past the core sets changed every 2 years. Core sets used to entirely be reprints, but ever since Magic 2010 (Which is really 11th edition if you're picky) they've added a mix of reprints and never before printed cards.

Block Sets start new every Fall. This Fall Innistrad comes out, when it does, Zendikar Block + Rise of the Eldrazi will rotate out as well as Magic 2011.



That's just for standard. Don't ask me about Extended and possibly Modern

Edit: I know it sounds strange for JTMS and SFM to be banned since they're rotating in the Fall. But that would still mean months and months of them still being legal, and in the way Magic tournaments are WoTC was already trying to stop the bleeding from tournament attendance. When a bad taste comes in the mouth with Magic, it takes a long, long time to bring back people that felt burnt to come back. This is totally evident with Urza's Block and Mirrodin Block. Though to be honest it didn't help they were followed up with knee jerk low power sets like Masques block and Kamigawa block. Though I really enjoyed those blocks too, I like flavor too

Also in hindsight, it was only Prophecy that was weaksauce in terms of tournament playable cards. Masques was its own problem with Rebels and Rishadan Port

 

[The Technomancer]

New Core sets come out every Summer, next month we get Magic 2012, Magic 2011 rotates. In the past the core sets change every 2 years. Core sets used to entirely be reprints, but ever since Magic 2010 (Which is really 11th edition if you're picky) they've added a mix of reprints and never before printed cards.

Does M11 rotate out with M12? I was under the impression that the two cores would be legal together until INN hit.

 

[siddx]

So, basically for casual play it's decent. But pro-level, it sucks? :/

Someone give me a cliff-notes of what "Standard" means/includes. I honestly don't play Magic outside of Casual so I'm not too fussed about the bans and from their reasoning and the (apparent) drops in player count/attendance, it seems reasonable to me to ban Mystic. Jace needed (IMO) to be banned, however. But this late (if it's being rotated out of Standard?) in the game is really funky and weird.

Standard is the format in which the current block of cards, the last block of cards, and whatever "edition" (m11 currently, will be m12 in july) is out. So right now standard (or type 2 as its also called) is a format in which you can only use cards from Zendikar, Worldwake, Rise of Eldrazi, Scars of Mirrodin, Mirrodin Besieged, New Phyrexia, and M11

Legacy allows use of all cards from every set except alpha (iirc, because of the different shape of the cards) and any cards on the banned list for legacy.

Vintage is similar to Legacy but there is no banned list, just a restricted list. So cards you can't use in Legacy can be used, but only one of them per deck.

Extended is the most chaotic format. For while I believe it was 5 or 6 sets worth of cards or something along those lines. Now it's everything from now until Lowryn block. So the last four blocks basically. It's not very popular and I believe is getting replaced by a new format called modern magic that allows you to play with all cards with the new borders (so mirrodin up to now). My knowledge of extended is very limited though so I may have some facts wrong.

 

[Chojin]

Does M11 rotate out with M12? I was under the impression that the two cores would be legal together until INN hit.

No you were right, as soon as you said it I did my stealth edit ;P I always forget about the two sets being legal. I'm still getting used to yearly core sets even though we're three years in.

 

[The Technomancer]

No you were right, as soon as you said it I did my stealth edit ;P I always forget about the two sets being legal. I'm still getting used to yearly core sets even though we're three years in.

Yeah, I kinda miss the alternate year core sets. We got some good stuff out of it (the Lorwyn structure, the Un sets) and some...well some less good stuff like Coldsnap

 

[siddx]

Yeah, I kinda miss the alternate year core sets. We got some good stuff out of it (the Lorwyn structure, the Un sets) and some...well some less good stuff like Coldsnap

well coldsnap did give us...ummm..dark depths! If you managed to have a bunch of those before hexmage came out you made out great!

 

[TheSeks]

Sounds like my "casual play" would fall under Legacy (without the restrictions, anyway) for my 8th Edition-Invasion collection.

So, standard is at least 1-2 years worth of cards. If that's the case, why not tweak the "cut-off" to a hard limit of 1 year? Jace would've been broken only for 2010-2011 pro-level years (until Magic 11 came out), for instance. This would've dropped him (and Stone Forge Mystic) when "Scars of Mirrodin" dropped as well.

I mean: I dunno if the cost factor (having to buy "new cards/sets") every year to keep up with a tournament standard that is basically a "clean slate" (what I'm attempting to get at) would be expensive or not... probably would be, but you could sell the old cards to Legacy players for some decent cash couldn't you?

Basically: Would "reinventing the wheel" every year/clean slating help prevent situations like this if they could get some kinda of cost-investment that isn't insanely expensive down?

I'm kinda looking at it from a designer/balance-reset type of way. I dunno how right/wrong I would be though.

Edit: Looking at Wikipedia for release dates it seems they don't have a set release/"all-in-one year" dates for the expansion/block sets. Guess that throws a wrench in my idea unless Wizards pretty much stopped pumping cards for a year said they were going to rebalance the game for tournament level play, come out with Magic 2013 (Edition 15 or whatever), a week later the first block of a new set would start. Three-four months in, block two starts, three-four months in the last block starts. Of course, block three would be screwed... :/

 

[The Technomancer]

well coldsnap did give us...ummm..dark depths! If you managed to have a bunch of those before hexmage came out you made out great!

Coldsnap really suffered from them worrying so much about making it decent in Limited that they lost sight of the greater focus.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Sounds like my "casual play" would fall under Legacy (without the restrictions, anyway) for my 8th Edition-Invasion collection.

So, standard is at least 1-2 years worth of cards. If that's the case, why not tweak the "cut-off" to a hard limit of 1 year? Jace would've been broken only for 2010-2011 pro-level years (until Magic 11 came out), for instance. This would've dropped him (and Stone Forge Mystic) when "Scars of Mirrodin" dropped as well.

I mean: I dunno if the cost factor (having to buy "new cards/sets") every year to keep up with a tournament standard that is basically a "clean slate" (what I'm attempting to get at) would be expensive or not... probably would be, but you could sell the old cards to Legacy players for some decent cash couldn't you?

Basically: Would "reinventing the wheel" every year/clean slating help prevent situations like this if they could get some kinda of cost-investment that isn't insanely expensive down?

I'm kinda looking at it from a designer/balance-reset type of way. I dunno how right/wrong I would be though.

Wait what? SFM is a worldwake card just like Jace.

 

[The Technomancer]

Basically: Would "reinventing the wheel" every year/clean slating help prevent situations like this if they could get some kinda of cost-investment that isn't insanely expensive down?

I'm kinda looking at it from a designer/balance-reset type of way. I dunno how right/wrong I would be though.

A few major reasons they don't want to do that, chief among them that they really like to encourage cross-block play. If you're only allowed acces to the cards from one block then it makes it even easier to predict which deck types and strategies are going to emerge. Mixing something like the land theme from Zendikar with the artifacts from Mirrodin can lead to a more dynamic, more interesting environment.

(okay, that didn't happen so much this time since Zendikar was so strong, but thats how its supposed to go)

 

[zerokoolpsx]

well coldsnap did give us...ummm..dark depths! If you managed to have a bunch of those before hexmage came out you made out great!

20/20 legendary flying black legendary indestructible creature avatar on turn 3. I would cry lol.

 

[Chojin]

Extended is the most chaotic format. For while I believe it was 5 or 6 sets worth of cards or something along those lines. Now it's everything from now until Lowryn block. So the last four blocks basically. It's not very popular and I believe is getting replaced by a new format called modern magic that allows you to play with all cards with the new borders (so mirrodin up to now). My knowledge of extended is very limited though so I may have some facts wrong.

Extended keeps changing up thanks to the change-ups in core sets. However extended has always been a clusterfuck to be honest. As it stands since 2008 to simplify how Extended works is that its the last 7 years of blocks plus the core sets. And yes, that means Lorwyn and up to current is Extended legal. That means when Innistrad comes out, Lorywn block rotates out.

The way it used to work was that it was Three Blocks and Three Core sets were rotated out in one fell swoop. It was really weird because it shook the format up so much, which can be a good or a bad thing. Sometimes there was a card from 6 years ago you wanted to use in a current set but now couldn't cause it suddenly went to Legacy.

Before that Extended was even weirder, like for a while you couldn't play 4th Edition and previous, but you COULD play dual lands.

The problem that exists now though is with Extended there's not much change in decks. Right now the top decks were the same top decks that existed when they were in standard. The old Extended allowed one to create a brand new rogue deck with a fresh format. If you look at extended now its the same old Fairies and Jund, though I will admit Scapeshift got a major boost thanks to Valakut.

Hopefully with the popularity of it, Modern will become a real format. Basically Modern says to hell with rotating Extended and creates a new "Eternal" format much like Legacy and Vintage are. The difference is that Modern will be 8th Edition up to current, always. The name Modern is used because of the current card frames that were created when 8th Edition came out and that makes it a very easy visual cue to what is legal in Modern and what isn't, barring reprints ;P

Hell Standard was weird too originally. Standard required that you had to have at least 5 cards from every set, people basically had to jam in everything from The Dark, Homelands, and Fallen Empires. That made for some weird ass decks Thank god for Serrated Arrows, haha.

Edit:

Coldsnap really suffered from them worrying so much about making it decent in Limited that they lost sight of the greater focus.

That was my problem with Coldsnap as well. I never felt like anything meshed well in that set while it was standard legal with the other sets.

I mean don't get me wrong, I LOVE new cards, I LOVE new sets There's a lot of people that are angry(!?) that more product is pushed out every year compared to years past. Cards are the lifeblood, and yeah its going to cost, but hell, its still cheaper than Heroin

 

[siddx]

20/20 legendary flying black legendary indestructible creature avatar on turn 3. I would cry lol.

I had a friend pull that off in an EDH match, I wanted to punch him the face.

 

[TheSeks]

Wait what? SFM is a worldwake card just like Jace.

Yes, I know. I mean it would've dropped Jace and Stone Forge at the same time 2011 came out, thereby preventing the whole "banning" situation that is going one right now.

A few major reasons they don't want to do that, chief among them that they really like to encourage cross-block play. If you're only allowed acces to the cards from one block then it makes it even easier to predict which deck types and strategies are going to emerge. Mixing something like the land theme from Zendikar with the artifacts from Mirrodin can lead to a more dynamic, more interesting environment.

I can see where you and Wizards are coming from, but it seems to me like it would be much easier to go forward thinking in "core/expansion" yearly balance for Standard and pro-level play, than having two years and worrying about a huge (okay, not so much but you get my point) back log of cards in terms of balance.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Yes, I know. I mean it would've dropped Jace and Stone Forge at the same time 2011 came out, thereby preventing the whole "banning" situation that is going one right now.



I can see where you and Wizards are coming from, but it seems to me like it would be much easier to go forward thinking in "core/expansion" yearly balance for Standard and pro-level play, than having two years and worrying about a huge (okay, not so much but you get my point) back log of cards in terms of balance.

Oh, ok. I misunderstood then. I like having two blocks, it gives more diversity. I don't think I'd like having one year at a time as much.

 

[siddx]

Yes, I know. I mean it would've dropped Jace and Stone Forge at the same time 2011 came out, thereby preventing the whole "banning" situation that is going one right now.



I can see where you and Wizards are coming from, but it seems to me like it would be much easier to go forward thinking in "core/expansion" yearly balance for Standard and pro-level play, than having two years and worrying about a huge (okay, not so much but you get my point) back log of cards in terms of balance.

Having it be only from one block would be horrible. Blocks tend to have themes which can restrict the variety in decks that can be made. With two different blocks plus M, you get just enough variety that there are almost always 4 or 5 top decks that can potentially win.

 

[TheSeks]

Oh, ok. I misunderstood then. I like having two blocks, it gives more diversity. I don't think I'd like having one year at a time as much.

Maybe if they kept Core as "these are the base cards"/counter-spells, burn/destroy cards, lands, some 1-3/1-3 base creatures with a few 6/6 not-too-powerful rare creatures and some enchantments that were the same year over year and the expansions were where "the crazy" comes out, would that be better?

I dunno, I'm just curious how they could balance the game to where situations like this where "We didn't honestly think it would turn out like this!" didn't happen.

 

[Chojin]

Yes, I know. I mean it would've dropped Jace and Stone Forge at the same time 2011 came out, thereby preventing the whole "banning" situation that is going one right now.



I can see where you and Wizards are coming from, but it seems to me like it would be much easier to go forward thinking in "core/expansion" yearly balance for Standard and pro-level play, than having two years and worrying about a huge (okay, not so much but you get my point) back log of cards in terms of balance.

They sort of have that format already. It's called Block Constructed.

Believe it or not, when a set comes out it usually was finalized a year or a year and a half before.

MaRo has a design book that is 5 years out. Of course the sets aren't finished 5 years before hand, but he has a pretty good idea of what he wants to do with each set 5 years before the set comes out. It's nuts. He knew we were going back to Mirrodin when Mirrodin came out, knew exactly when, and knew he was finally going to put Poison back in come hell or high water.

The finer tuning of stuff that require bannings. Well again, that's really hard to do. RnD rarely makes specific combos for existing cards. There's a few obvious ones, but they usually are 5 card cumbersome cute doohickies like the Cog cycle in Fifth Dawn but they never intentionally create a 2 card combo or specifically create a card to have as much synergy that SFM had with Scars Swords and Batterskull.

They're human, they make mistakes. When Zendikar+Scars was being playtested together, RnD thought Vengevine was going to be the boogieman, you can see that with all the escape valves like Surgical Extraction being released in New Phyrexia.

What I'm interested in now is Splinter Twin+Exarch. Granted its going to rotate in the fall, but wow, they really did pull a boner with that, its not like they didn't have an early warning with Pestermite+Splinter Twin. Turn 4 instawins are NOT fun for anyone, especially where the deck can set itself up for the win on Turn 3 farily easily.

Maybe if they kept Core as "these are the base cards"/counter-spells, burn/destroy cards, lands, some 1-3/1-3 base creatures with a few 6/6 not-too-powerful rare creatures and some enchantments that were the same year over year and the expansions were where "the crazy" comes out, would that be better?

Again it would disrupt Block Constructed as a format as well. If you put all your "base" cards in the core sets and leave the crazy stuff to the Block sets, what would people do with drafting block and playing block constructed? I know what you're trying to say but it really would disrupt the model as a whole really bad. All blocks should be able to stand on their own. I don't know how long you have been playing, but read up on Fallen Empires and Homelands and The Dark. ::shudders::

I dunno, I'm just curious how they could balance the game to where situations like this where "We didn't honestly think it would turn out like this!" didn't happen.

They can, and they have. It was called Masque Block. It was so underpowered because the previous set was so overpowered that it was a very, very boring game to play. Rebels Some say the Kamigawa block was like that too with very few standout cards with Jitte, Meloku and the Dragons.


There's a really good article by a former Pro Player and WoTC guy named Randy Buehler, he explains and answers your wondering about balancing the game to where situations cannot happen like it has.

The thing is, honestly in the 17 years magic has been around there's been very few times bannings in Standard format had to happen. If I recall off the top of my head that has been Memory Jar before it even got to print, the mess that was Affinity in Mirrodin, and now Jaces and SFM.

Thats not a bad record to be honest.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Maybe if they kept Core as "these are the base cards"/counter-spells, burn/destroy cards, lands, some 1-3/1-3 base creatures with a few 6/6 not-too-powerful rare creatures and some enchantments that were the same year over year and the expansions were where "the crazy" comes out, would that be better?

I dunno, I'm just curious how they could balance the game to where situations like this where "We didn't honestly think it would turn out like this!" didn't happen.

I dunno, they need to think over their cards more when they're making them I think. Maybe get some pro players to look over them too if they keep missing combos. The biggest problem is the wasting of money on event decks, not necessarily the banning itself. It would be a lot less if the event deck didn't come out the week before. I still don't see how they didn't think batterskull would make stoneforge overpowered. What would make you think otherwise from your R&D testing that they supposedly do? They release a lot of powerful equipments and then allows them to circumvent the downsides of them and they don't see how it can be problematic? Just seems like some horrible R&D.

They sort of have that format already. It's called Block Constructed.

Believe it or not, when a set comes out it usually was finalized a year or a year and a half before.

MaRo has a design book that is 5 years out. Of course the sets aren't finished 5 years before hand, but he has a pretty good idea of what he wants to do with each set 5 years before the set comes out. It's nuts. He knew we were going back to Mirrodin when Mirrodin came out, knew exactly when, and knew he was finally going to put Poison back in come hell or high water.

The finer tuning of stuff that require bannings. Well again, that's really hard to do. RnD rarely makes specific combos for existing cards. There's a few obvious ones, but they usually are 5 card cumbersome cute doohickies like the Cog cycle in Fifth Dawn but they never intentionally create a 2 card combo or specifically create a card to have as much synergy that SFM had with Scars Swords and Batterskull.

They're human, they make mistakes. When Zendikar+Scars was being playtested together, RnD thought Vengevine was going to be the boogieman, you can see that with all the escape valves like Surgical Extraction being released in New Phyrexia.

What I'm interested in now is Splinter Twin+Exarch. Granted its going to rotate in the fall, but wow, they really did pull a boner with that, its not like they didn't have an early warning with Pestermite+Splinter Twin. Turn 4 instawins are NOT fun for anyone, especially where the deck can set itself up for the win on Turn 3 farily easily.

Ya, it has to be more than human error though like with exarch. You already know there are infinite combos with splinter twin so you make another infinite combo that has flash and 4 defense so you can't even lightning bolt it. I can see not giving it 1 so it's harder to kill but making it immune to a lot of damager stuff makes it a lot more powerful. What do they honestly think will happen?

 

[TheSeks]

I dunno, they need to think over their cards more when they're making them I think. Maybe get some pro players to look over them too if they keep missing combos. The biggest problem is the wasting of money on event decks, not necessarily the banning itself. It would be a lot less if the event deck didn't come out the week before. I still don't see how they didn't think batterskull would make stoneforge overpowered. What would make you think otherwise from your R&D testing that they supposedly do? They release a lot of powerful equipments and then allows them to circumvent the downsides of them and they don't see how it can be problematic? Just seems like some horrible R&D.

MaRo has a design book that is 5 years out. Of course the sets aren't finished 5 years before hand, but he has a pretty good idea of what he wants to do with each set 5 years before the set comes out. It's nuts. He knew we were going back to Mirrodin when Mirrodin came out, knew exactly when, and knew he was finally going to put Poison back in come hell or high water.

I think this and this together would solve the issue. Reign in the "we're five years out," and get some pro-players in to hem and haw the cards and balance/rules. I think that would fix the "we didn't see these things in testing!" issue they're claiming right now.

Balancing is a fickle thing, though: I know this from playing FPS, fighting games, etc. over the years. But it's not like you can't at least attempt to make sure your stuff is balanced and checked by keeping up with the current stuff.

Someone (forgetting who right now, stupid insomnia keeping me up) in here claimed this time of year is when Wizards generally will ban cards. That's pretty crazy. They kinda need to be more... fluid on testing and stuff, maybe hire a group that tests the pro-level decks and see what makes them tick and then make notes at they go on what works well and what doesn't?

 

[Chojin]

I know I type a lot before I can read previous responses but I'll reiterate, but I did answer some of this on my previous post Please forgive me

I think this and this together would solve the issue. Reign in the "we're five years out," and get some pro-players in to hem and haw the cards and balance/rules. I think that would fix the "we didn't see these things in testing!" issue they're claiming right now.

A lot of people in RnD were former pro players. They really do hem and haw with cards. The problem is you have to think of Magic like Poker except for one MAJOR difference: In Poker you have 52 cards. In magic you have over 15,000 individual cards. That's a LOT of interactions possible. We're talking billions upon billions of interactions possible. There's no way one person let alone an entire team can figure out all possible interactions. A lot of things are discovered in hindsight. A lot of combos are figured out a lightning speed once a set is spoiled because think of it this way: RnD is a dozen guys a most. The internet is millions strong. RnD is like a lone PC and the internet is SETI@Home in overdrive. Before we really used the internet for Magic, we had Magazines for spoilers and maybe your local comic book shop to figure out a combo. There used to be months if not years that went by before a potential combo could be broken. In modern times you have people that professionally game theory about Magic on websites, as a LIVING!

Balancing is a fickle thing, though: I know this from playing FPS, fighting games, etc. over the years. But it's not like you can't at least attempt to make sure your stuff is balanced and checked by keeping up with the current stuff.

I think you're suggesting beta testing a product before its released. There's a big problem with that and that's very related to my previous paragraph. You see, magic is not only played on the kitchen table, granted its the majority of the way its played. I play casually more than anything. However its interest and lifeblood depends on new sets and pro tours. If anything, the Guillarme debacle of New Phyrexia leaking shows us that in spades. Information is the best weapon you can have with Magic, if you give a bunch of pro players to beta test the product months and months before a set is released, how are you going to keep the cards secret? Especially to pro players, who make a living playing the game? It simply just can't be done that way. And again, I reiterate, bannings have not nor will they really ever be a common occurrence. In the 17 years, its been a very rare thing.

Someone (forgetting who right now, stupid insomnia keeping me up) in here claimed this time of year is when Wizards generally will ban cards. That's pretty crazy. They kinda need to be more... fluid on testing and stuff, maybe hire a group that tests the pro-level decks and see what makes them tick and then make notes at they go on what works well and what doesn't?

Ban and Restricted list happens twice a year. It doesn't mean there's a banning twice a year, it just means that's when and if cards will be banned, they will be announced and taken into effect at that time. There are many years that go by when they don't report anything at all.

I dunno, they need to think over their cards more when they're making them I think. Maybe get some pro players to look over them too if they keep missing combos. The biggest problem is the wasting of money on event decks, not necessarily the banning itself. It would be a lot less if the event deck didn't come out the week before.

The problem with the event deck is well problematic. Wizards knows that. As it's been said before the Event Decks were designed way way in advance before the ban/restricted list had to be drawn up. But keep in mind Event Decks are a pretty new thing. It's a pretty amazing thing that Wizards did that would encourage more kids to play at a competitive level at an affordable price, at least MSRP haha. They can't tell dealers what they can sell their products at. I totally agree with you that Batterskull was a boner and a half. The card by itself is pretty WTF out of left field in terms of power but honestly its only as good with SFM. By itself, its not really that much of a threat.

I still don't see how they didn't think batterskull would make stoneforge overpowered. What would make you think otherwise from your R&D testing that they supposedly do? They release a lot of powerful equipments and then allows them to circumvent the downsides of them and they don't see how it can be problematic? Just seems like some horrible R&D.

To tie in with my above paragraph, there's a REALLY, REALLY good free article on Starcitygames.com recently written, it explains what the possible mindset with Batterskull was and how RnD could have missed it.


But to paraphrase it (I really recommend reading the article though, its very well written) on paper Batterskull seems to be a pretty straightforward slightly undercosted artifact. When you consider on card creation theory and mana costs, its really cost just about right for what it does. You have to compare it to the card its trying to slightly emulate at artifact level: Baneslayer Angel

Again though, the bounce effect is bonkers and just I don't even. I mean its one thing to have your pet card "safe" from removal, but really, holy crap.

 

[siddx]

I'm still waiting to see what set the steamflogger boss's rigger ability is included in and if it will make the value jump at all. I have two just sitting there looking all lonely and confused.

 

[Hero]

They do test future sets. It's called the Future Future League. They test entire blocks that are still in the final design stages with the one previous to it and the one after it, so forth and so on. Aside from R&D they do have pro players assisting them with testing. People need to understand there is more than just Standard when creating new sets. Aside from the older Eternal formats there's also Extended but more importantly than that Block Constructed and Drafting. There are so many design elements to the card game it is literally impossible to find them all the problems because there are literally millions of different game scenarios and card combinations. The more important thing than making mistakes is owning up to them and they have come out today saying that they messed up.

Yes, it sucks they ban cards that are valuable but it's better in the long run and one of the reasons Magic has existed for seventeen years now. The health and integrity of the game is the most important aspect to them even over losing potential sales. And I'm sorry but a lot of you guys complaining about your SFM's not being usable are pretty much the people I wouldn't want to play with anyway. You only recently bought an event deck containing two copies of a card that were going to rotate in October anyway and you're demanding compensation and people getting fired? If you were really into the game you would've had them a long, long time ago.

 

[Chojin]

I'm still waiting to see what set the steamflogger boss's rigger ability is included in and if it will make the value jump at all. I have two just sitting there looking all lonely and confused.

CONTRAPTIONS 4LIFE

Steampunk, even magic will try to make it good somehow

Please note I like Steampunk, in theory I guess.

Edit: oh and something interesting about that. MaRo (Designs big head honcho) really, really, really hates that card. He doesn't like deliberate red herrings and even though Future Sight is "Magic that could be" everything he put in Future Sight was something that honestly COULD be a real magic card. So keywords used in Future Sight like "assemble" are in the actual rule book. It goes as follows:

5/1/2007 Contraption is a new artifact type. There are currently no artifacts with this type. And there's no current game meaning of "assemble."

Of course its all conjecture, but it really does feel to me that MaRo is pinned against the wall and one day will have to have "assemble" and "contraptions" in a set one day.

 

[siddx]

They do test future sets. It's called the Future Future League. They test entire blocks that are still in the final design stages with the one previous to it and the one after it, so forth and so on. Aside from R&D they do have pro players assisting them with testing. People need to understand there is more than just Standard when creating new sets. Aside from the older Eternal formats there's also Extended but more importantly than that Block Constructed and Drafting. There are so many design elements to the card game it is literally impossible to find them all the problems because there are literally millions of different game scenarios and card combinations. The more important thing than making mistakes is owning up to them and they have come out today saying that they messed up.

Yes, it sucks they ban cards that are valuable but it's better in the long run and one of the reasons Magic has existed for seventeen years now. The health and integrity of the game is the most important aspect to them even over losing potential sales. And I'm sorry but a lot of you guys complaining about your SFM's not being usable are pretty much the people I wouldn't want to play with anyway. You only recently bought an event deck containing two copies of a card that were going to rotate in October anyway and you're demanding compensation and people getting fired? If you were really into the game you would've had them a long, long time ago.

Stop acting like a condescending dickbag. The event deck was a nice way of getting your hands on two cards for a decent price. Now those two cards have been removed from play and its natural people are going to be upset.
The situation wasn't dire enough to require a banning. This wasn't academy level of absurdity where matches were decided by coin flips because you could combo out turn one. The card didn't need to get banned, people were finding ways to defeat it.

 

[dschalter]

I still don't believe SFM is as powerful as people think. Players were figuring out ways to beat Cawblade, as I noted, the last standard open saw Vampires win it all and saw just as many red decks in the top 8 as cawblades. Players were starting to come up with strategies to make other decks viable and it was beginning to work. Instead of trusting players, wizards just decided to jump in and play nanny.

The cawblade situation wasn't even remotely close to the affinity/academy decks from mirrodin/uzra's block and the hell those decks made playing type 2.

Affinity never put up the numbers Caw-Blade did, winning percentage and top 8 slots wise. It was played more, but to say it was much worse is an overstatement.

As for the event decks, well, it's too bad, but the card was simply overpowered and the effect on tournament attendance was too strong to ignore. Stoneforge Mystic will lose value, but it will hardly become junk- it is heavily played in Legacy and it is extremely heavily played in extended (relevant during PTQ season).

 

[siddx]

Affinity never put up the numbers Caw-Blade did, winning percentage and top 8 slots wise. It was played more, but to say it was much worse is an overstatement.

As for the event decks, well, it's too bad, but the card was simply overpowered and the effect on tournament attendance was too strong to ignore. Stoneforge Mystic will lose value, but it will hardly become junk- it is heavily played in Legacy and it is extremely heavily played in extended (relevant during PTQ season).

I remember going to smaller tournaments with 20 or so people, and 15 would be playing affinity. Maybe it wasn't as bad in your area but around here it was absurd. Cawblade on the other hand made up maybe 20% of the decks at most tournaments in my area.

 

[Chojin]

I remember going to smaller tournaments with 20 or so people, and 15 would be playing affinity. Maybe it wasn't as bad in your area but around here it was absurd. Cawblade on the other hand made up maybe 20% of the decks at most tournaments in my area.

The price of Jace was pretty big entry barrier because of the pricetag of a playset. Raffinity was everywhere because we didn't have an environment of ridiculously priced cards.

But regardless, I do think asking for people's heads on a platter for this is hyperbole and pretty ugly at that. Bannings in Standard aren't really the end all be all that people make it out to be. There's tons of other formats they're still legal in.

Edit: I think most peoples complaints were that in this format, at least if apparently you live in a area where the metagame reflects pro tournaments (Man I'd hate to live there) you had to play Caw-blade or bust. The thought of getting a couple of stoneforges (though honestly if you really wanted to play cawblade you had the bling for Jace haha) on the cheap was a tempting idea. Or I guess people really love white weenie that much