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[echoshifting]

I think he's referring more to situations like, say, topdecking a miracle card on your turn, finishing your turn and/or casting spells at the beginning of your opponent's turn, then triggering a miracle effect during (opponent's) combat phase or something by drawing the card at that time. Those situations will definitely arise.

 

[f0rk]

GW Angel Ramp time!



Travel Preparations?

Isn't the intro deck she's in GW? I bet that deck is human / angels with some travel preps

 

[shoplifter]

I think he's referring more to situations like, say, topdecking a miracle card on your turn, finishing your turn and/or casting spells at the beginning of your opponent's turn, then triggering a miracle effect during (opponent's) combat phase or something by drawing the card at that time. Those situations will definitely arise.

Presumably as soon as the effect that caused you to draw resolves you'd cast, and in situations where you draw multiple cards you'd need to immediately reveal the Miracle card if you plan on using it.


\/\/ yes

 

[echoshifting]

Sorry, I'm using the term "topdeck" incorrectly. I mean arrange your deck with a card like ponder so you know your next draw will be a miracle. Then if you trigger a draw on your opponent's turn, you can cast it even if you've already cast spells that turn, provided it is your first draw that turn.

 

[y2dvd]

I was referring to phases rather. Can I play the Miracle card on any phase as long as I trigger it? I don't see anywhere official where it says I must play it right away.

 

[Haly]

If you trigger miracle somehow you can play it, regardless of whether it's a sorcery or instant.

 

[Sinatar]

Today's Magic TV brought up an interesting point about miracles.

So let's say you have a miracle card in your hand. You cast desperate ravings on their turn and draw another copy of said miracle, reveal it and then do the random discard and hit one of those miracles. How does the game recognize the difference between the non miracle version and the miracle version? Will the rules just say that either can work or would it be a way to cheat?

 

[Venfayth]

Today's Magic TV brought up an interesting point about miracles.

So let's say you have a miracle card in your hand. You cast desperate ravings on their turn and draw another copy of said miracle, reveal it and then do the random discard and hit one of those miracles. How does the game recognize the difference between the non miracle version and the miracle version? Will the rules just say that either can work or would it be a way to cheat?

Doesn't the miracle text say you can only play it when you draw it? Aka before it goes in to your hand?

Edit: Maybe I don't understand. Nevermind me.

 

[Orayn]

Today's Magic TV brought up an interesting point about miracles.

So let's say you have a miracle card in your hand. You cast desperate ravings on their turn and draw another copy of said miracle, reveal it and then do the random discard and hit one of those miracles. How does the game recognize the difference between the non miracle version and the miracle version? Will the rules just say that either can work or would it be a way to cheat?

That is a bizarre and fascinating scenario. I suppose the self-referential nature of miracles should make it the discard effect care about which one was drawn that turn, but the problem is that there's no easy way to differentiate between the two when they're in your hand.

Doesn't the miracle text say you can only play it when you draw it? Aka before it goes in to your hand?

Crap, good point. Does the option to cast a miracle present itself in the middle of a draw/discard effect?

 

[Guesong]

Crap, good point. Does the option to cast a miracle present itself in the middle of a draw/discard effect?

No. You cannot put something on the stack when an effect is currently resolving. In this case, you have to wait until Desperate Ravings is resolved before you could put the Miracle on stack.

 

[ultron87]

Presumably you'd reveal it when you drew it, keep it separate from your hand, and then figure out the random card to discard in some manner that doesn't require the card to be in your hand and indistinguishable from the others. You could roll a dice or something.

 

[y2dvd]

Doesn't the miracle text say you can only play it when you draw it? Aka before it goes in to your hand?

Edit: Maybe I don't understand. Nevermind me.

Where does it say you can only play it when you draw it though? This is the text straight from the cards.

[Miracle] (You may cast this card for its miracle cost when you draw it if it's the first card you drew this turn.)

Nowhere does it say you have to play it right away. It just says if it's the first card you drew this turn, you may pay Miracle cost. To me, as long as it's exactly that, I can play it whenever in the same turn.

 

[Venfayth]

Where does it say you can only play it when you draw it though? This is the text straight from the cards.

[Miracle] (You may cast this card for its miracle cost when you draw it if it's the first card you drew this turn.)

Nowhere does it say you have to play it right away. It just says if it's the first card you drew this turn, you may pay Miracle cost. To me, as long as it's exactly that, I can play it whenever in the same turn.

I think "when you draw it" is that qualifier.

 

[Guesong]

I think "when you draw it" is that qualifier.

I think you are right.

You may play it so long as the stack is empty. Whether or not the opportunity to cast the Miracle is gone if you draw the card in the midst of an effect (Desperate Ravings) where drawing a card is not the last thing you do...that's the question.

EDIT : ultron caught my mistake. I meant to say you may play it so long as you could cast a spell at the moment.

 

[Sinatar]

Doesn't the miracle text say you can only play it when you draw it? Aka before it goes in to your hand?

Edit: Maybe I don't understand. Nevermind me.

Right but you can't play it in the middle of desperate ravings, that spell has to resolve first.

 

[ultron87]

I don't see anything suggesting that the stack has to be empty though. I don't see why you couldn't Think Twice into that terrible green miracle to use it in response to a burn spell.

 

[Sinatar]

I don't see anything suggesting that the stack has to be empty though. I don't see why you couldn't Think Twice into that terrible green miracle to use it in response to a burn spell.

You can't take an action when a spell is in the middle of resolving, so yea you can think twice a miracle, it's the desperate ravings scenario that's questionable.

 

[Guesong]

Yeah, my bad, I made a mistake while typing my thoughts. I meant to say you may play it so long as you could cast a spell at the moment.

 

[echoshifting]

MTG Salvation thinks you can play it. I don't think we have anything official yet, though.

Desperate Ravings
Here we get trickier, and where logistics really makes you rub your temples. You pretty much have two problems:
1) Proving you drew the miracle card first. That basically means showing it to your opponent.
2) Not discarding it randomly.

The issue lies mostly in #1, because if you discard it in #2, it's moot as you can't cast it from the graveyard. Note that this is only an issue if you cast it before your draw step, or during your opponent's turn. I would recommend just biting the bullet and showing it to your opponent as soon as you draw it (under the above one-at-a-time recommendation), IF YOU INTEND TO MIRACLE IT. If you don't want to or can't miracle it, don't bother revealing it. The worst case scenario is that you discarded it randomly, at which point they still saw the card anyway. That's my recommendation, not Tournament Floor Rules.

edit: and here's something official that helps a lot

702.91b If a player chooses to reveal a card using its miracle ability, he or she plays with that card revealed until that card leaves his or her hand, that ability resolves, or that ability otherwise leaves the stack.

Source

 

[Sinatar]

MTG Salvation thinks you can play it. I don't think we have anything official yet, though.

You can play it after DR if it's your only copy, that isn't under question. The issue is when you draw a miracle, have another copy of it in hand and then hit one of them off the discard.

 

[echoshifting]

You can play it after DR if it's your only copy, that isn't under question. The issue is when you draw a miracle, have another copy of it in hand and then hit one of them off the discard.

Oh shit that is a mind melter...and 702.91b does not seem to provide a satisfactory answer =/

If I were just playing and this issue came up, I would probably put an out-of-play substitute in for the miracle card and keep the miracle revealed in accordance with 702.91b. I'm sure we'll get some official clarification eventually, though.

 

[y2dvd]

I think "when you draw it" is that qualifier.

Ah, I can agree with that.

What they can do is make you slide a thin tab in your sleeve face side until turn is over, that way you can identify that miracle card. Sounds clunky but it would clear up which is the real miracle triggered card.

 

[Ravager61]

From what I understand, when you draw a miracle card, you reveal it, it stays revealed until after the effect that caused you to draw it finishes resolving, and THEN you can cast it.

So you would draw for Desperate Ravings, reveal it, put the rest of the cards in your hand on the table face down, roll a dice to choose which cards you discard, and then if you don't discard the miracle card, you can cast it.

edit: this is also in the comments for that youtube video

 

[Sinatar]

From what I understand, when you draw a miracle card, you reveal it, it stays revealed until after the effect that caused you to draw it finishes resolving, and THEN you can cast it.

So you would draw for Desperate Ravings, reveal it, put the rest of the cards in your hand on the table face down, roll a dice to choose which cards you discard, and then if you don't discard the miracle card, you can cast it.

edit: this is also in the comments for that youtube video

Yea that makes sense, put the revealed one down face up.

 

[OnPoint]

Just opened a bunch of Chinese Planeshift packs. Got some Terminates, tri-colored lands and Meddling Mage. Not bad. Was hoping for an Orim's Chant, but eh, there's always next time.

 

[Pandaman]

oh joy, another meddling mage in the world.

*spits*

 

[zoukka]

I have a soft spot for the invasion set :3

 

[Haly]

I <3 you, Treva

If only your ability wasn't so god awful.

 

[ultron87]

Bought one of those triple booster things and got an Akroma as the bonus foil.

Best angel art I've seen all week.

Spoiler

Lol 8 cmc

 

[Haly]

I'm not exactly sure how she's not slicing her self with that pose.

 

[Pandaman]

I <3 you, Treva

If only your ability wasn't so god awful.

if only she could have been dromar or even crosis. ;_;

 

[Haly]

Compared to the Commander cycle of dragons, the Invasion cycle was laughably bad. Only Rith is worth playing.

 

[echoshifting]

I'm not exactly sure how she's not slicing her self with that pose.

She had an itch. She's an angel, she has thick skin

 

[Pandaman]

rith was a bitch though, i laughed when those giant treefolk ate her.

 

[Haly]

rith was a bitch though, i laughed when those giant treefolk ate her.

I never read the Invasion novels, kind of want to though.

I joined magic around Onslaught so I missed all the fun of Invasion and Odyssey.

 

[The Technomancer]

Compared to the Commander cycle of dragons, the Invasion cycle was laughably bad. Only Rith is worth playing.

The ones in the Commander decks are the ones from Time Spiral, right?

 

[Pandaman]

I never read the Invasion novels, kind of want to though.

I joined magic around Onslaught so I missed all the fun of Invasion and Odyssey.

ew, hippy kamahl and emo jeska.

atleast you had ixidor.

 

[Haly]

The ones in the Commander decks are the ones from Time Spiral, right?

Ah right, I forgot they appeared in Time Spiral first.

ew, hippy kamahl and emo jeska.

atleast you had ixidor.

And slivers :3

 

[Pandaman]

And slivers :3

back in my day people played kavu and we liked it.

 

[An-Det]

ew, hippy kamahl and emo jeska.

atleast you had ixidor.

Hippy Kamahl is best Kamahl. Once Chainer died and he took command of the Mirari he got awesome, before he was just a brute. Plus Onslaught-era elf decks were ridiculous with him, dumping a ton of elves into play, playing Concordant Crossroads, then using his Overrun ability a couple times.

 

[Pandaman]

Hippy Kamahl is best Kamahl. Once Chainer died and he took command of the Mirari he got awesome, before he was just a brute. Plus Onslaught-era elf decks were ridiculous with him, dumping a ton of elves into play, playing Concordant Crossroads, then using his Overrun ability a couple times.

the dude bribed people by flipping molten hot pennies through walls.

he went from that to literally creating a giant ass. if he steps back, akroma aborts kuber with her axe: ixidor leads the largest unified force since the invasion against averu and we have a happy end that doesn't involve mndraping the quarter of the planet that korona failed to slaughter.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I played Duels of the Planes 2012 today against a buddy. opening hand was 2 mana and 5 3 mana cards. Ok, fine. Not the worst hand ever, I'll deal.

10 turns go by, not a single land. And then I die, without having cast one spell.

Fuck computer shuffling.

 

[the_painted_bird]

I played Duels of the Planes 2012 today against a buddy. opening hand was 2 mana and 5 3 mana cards. Ok, fine. Not the worst hand ever, I'll deal.

10 turns go by, not a single land. And then I die, without having cast one spell.

Fuck computer shuffling.

Friday teh 13th mang

 

[narcosis219]

I played Duels of the Planes 2012 today against a buddy. opening hand was 2 mana and 5 3 mana cards. Ok, fine. Not the worst hand ever, I'll deal.

10 turns go by, not a single land. And then I die, without having cast one spell.

Fuck computer shuffling.

Fuck IRL shuffling.

One FNM I got 7 3+cc, 6 lands, 5 lands, 4 3+cc, 3 3+cc and settled with 2 lands.

Every mulligan I would mash shuffle, pile shuffle, and then mash shuffle again. Opponent would do a regular cut. It's almost as if I won the lottery that day.

I got my opponent down to 6 life that game before I died. Never again.

 

[kudos.]

Fuck IRL shuffling.

One FNM I got 7 3+cc, 6 lands, 5 lands, 4 3+cc, 3 3+cc and settled with 2 lands.

Every mulligan I would mash shuffle, pile shuffle, and then mash shuffle again. Opponent would do a regular cut. It's almost as if I won the lottery that day.

I got my opponent down to 6 life that game before I died. Never again.

I tend to get better land dispersal with IRL shuffling. No matter how many times I shuffle before hand on the computer it's usually dogshit.

 

["God's Beard!"]

By the way, after living with this dude for nearly a year, I find out yesterday that my roommate plays magic. He just had some old starter decks so I won every time(although 4 dark rituals caused me some trouble), but I helped him combine them into a black/blue deck that was a little more focused using the tips you guys have given me over the last couple weeks.



Just letting everyone know I'm paying it forward ^_^

 

[Magnus]

I had no idea the digital game existed. Man, I gotta nab that if it's really only $10. Flashing back to the year in junior high when I played this extensively. What a (fun) money pit, haha.

 

[dschalter]

I tend to get better land dispersal with IRL shuffling. No matter how many times I shuffle before hand on the computer it's usually dogshit.

it's more random with a computer.

 

[Karsticles]

I just spent 5 hours catching up on a decade of card releases. Man, what a great game. I sure miss it, but it's waaaaay too expensive to keep up with unfortunately.

I wonder what sort of deck God's Beard thinks I liked to run...

 

[Boogalogist]

I just spent 5 hours catching up on a decade of card releases. Man, what a great game. I sure miss it, but it's waaaaay too expensive to keep up with unfortunately.

I wonder what sort of deck God's Beard thinks I liked to run...

If you really enjoy the game, you don't have to "keep up with it". You could always play Legacy. Otherwise, you can play EDH / Commander. A lot of ex-MtG players I know came back to Magic, exclusively for EDH / Commander format. Standard is really too expensive to keep up with.