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[Daedardus]

Wouldn't call Modern totally healthy though, it's hard for control to get a foothold which sucks if you like to play control like me. There hasn't also been a good control card for ages too, although they did give us Nahiri to save the day. Unban JTMS please.

 

[Santiako]

Wouldn't call Modern totally healthy though, it's hard for control to get a foothold which sucks if you like to play control like me. There hasn't also been a good control card for ages too, although they did give us Nahiri to save the day. Unban JTMS please.

Grixis Control is a solid tier 2, RUG Scapeshift as well. Jace is never getting unbanned.

 

[Santiako]

SCG Top 8

 

[HK-47]

I'm surprised 2 Burn got through the Ad Nausem players.

 

[HK-47]

Wouldn't call Modern totally healthy though, it's hard for control to get a foothold which sucks if you like to play control like me. There hasn't also been a good control card for ages too, although they did give us Nahiri to save the day. Unban JTMS please.

JTMS does nothing to save control from aggro or the unfair decks while also allowing them to beat up the fair midrange decks. And inflating the price of Jace another 75 bucks.

 

[Firemind]

Grixis Control is a solid tier 2, RUG Scapeshift as well. Jace is never getting unbanned.

"Grixis Control"

If it doesn't run Ultimatum or Nicol Bolas it isn't control.

 

[Infinite Stars]

Grixis Control is a solid tier 2, RUG Scapeshift as well. Jace is never getting unbanned.

The fundamental issue with Jace is that he does fuck all to help Control's weakpoint(The Early Game) while making the late game(Cryptic, Colonnade, Sphinx's Rev, etc) even better.

Plus, JTMS would create the $3000 Sultai deck, because you'd be kidding if BGx wouldn't love a 4 Mana closer with the strength of Jace.

Of things on the banlist that could help Control, the only "real" answers are either one of the Cantrips( So you don't feel like an idiot having kept a 2 Bolt Hand in Jeskai, only to be starring down a 6/7 Goyf on Turn 2) or Stoneforge Mystic(Gives Control an "easy" T2 Play with instant speed 4/4s away.

Granted, I'm fully aware that I'm biased towards Mystic because I love the card and want White to stop being "Sideboard and Path" in Modern. Plus I think she'd finally give Mardu/Bant Midrange a boost

 

[Santiako]

"Grixis Control"

If it doesn't run Ultimatum or Nicol Bolas it isn't control.

There is no place for fairly played colored 8 mana cards in modern. The deck plays 8 ish counterspells, 8 ish draw spells, 8-10 removal spells. It's a control deck.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

There is no place for fairly played colored 8 mana cards in modern. The deck plays 8 ish counterspells, 8 ish draw spells, 8-10 removal spells. It's a control deck.

the the deck plays turn 2 4/5, a bunch of burn and a negate with shock to the face stapled on. It's a not a control deck, the only real control card in it is Ancestral Vision.

 

[Santiako]

the the deck plays turn 2 4/5, a bunch of burn and a negate with shock to the face stapled on. It's a tempo deck, the only real control card in it is Ancestral Vision.

You have tempo variants, usually with Delver and sometimes Young Pyro, but the versions playing ancestral vision, cryptic commands, etc are definitely control decks.

 

[Infinite Stars]

the the deck plays turn 2 4/5, a bunch of burn and a negate with shock to the face stapled on. It's a not a control deck, the only real control card in it is Ancestral Vision.

The deck plays 4x Cryptic Command iirc. Cryptic Command/Ancestral Visions together in a deck makes it Control.

 

[Santiako]

GP New Jersey top 8

4 Mardu vehicles, 3 4c Copycat, 1 Jund Energy

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

You have tempo variants, usually with Delver and sometimes Young Pyro, but the versions playing ancestral vision, cryptic commands, etc are definitely control decks.

I wrongly used tempo, since that's not an actual archetype.

The deck plays 4x Cryptic Command iirc. Cryptic Command/Ancestral Visions together in a deck makes it Control.

I disagree on it being control because it not only runs more than a couple win conditions with burn and snapcasters but that it can go on the beatdown as early as turn 2.

 

[Santiako]

I wrongly used tempo, since that's not an actual archetype.

I disagree on it being control because it not only runs more than a couple win conditions with burn and snapcasters but that it can go on the beatdown as early as turn 2.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-grixis-control-34623#paper

I think you're very wrong, this is a control deck in every way possible.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

My control decks are only complete with 34 points of burn.

 

[HK-47]

I wrongly used tempo, since that's not an actual archetype.

I disagree on it being control because it not only runs more than a couple win conditions with burn and snapcasters but that it can go on the beatdown as early as turn 2.

Your definition of a control is dumb as hell. It wins through countering or removing everything the opponent does while using snap, k command, crytic and Tasigur to create an overwhelming value loop.

Is Legacy Sultai control not control because it can quickly start beating you down with Goyfs and TNNs?

 

[Daedardus]

Grixis Control is a solid tier 2, RUG Scapeshift as well. Jace is never getting unbanned.

But I don't want to settle for tier 2, who can't there be at least one tier 1 deck. Nahiri Jeskai had some pretty good time a while ago but the format became hyper aggressive and it has been pushed back as a result.

JTMS does nothing to save control from aggro or the unfair decks while also allowing them to beat up the fair midrange decks. And inflating the price of Jace another 75 bucks.

I was only joking about Jace, although I do like to play with him. There's nothing else to unban though, and they just refuse to make good blue/control cards because it 'would disrupt standard', the normal blah-blah while they continue to completely fuck up standard.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Your definition of a control is dumb as hell. It wins through countering or removing everything the opponent does while using snap, k command, crytic and Tasigur to create an overwhelming value loop.

Let's just compare it to Death's Shadow Jund. The deck runs a bunch of removal, a bunch of cycling, disruption through discard and a very limited amount of creatures. By those metrics it's a control deck.

 

[Santiako]

My control decks are only complete with 34 points of burn.

I don't know what you're trying to say there. Counterburn decks were a classic control deck way back when. Having burn in your deck to control the board and finish off the opponent doesn't prevent the deck being a control deck, that is just dumb.

 

[charlequin]

Maro specifically says "no" to Tribal, but he said things like that about Madness too.

The big difference here is that Madness was just supposed to be really unlikely in terms of balancing and fitting it, while Tribal is something they say they're avoiding for philosophical reasons (i.e. probably won't happen without more staff changes in R&D.)

Pretty sure Maro answered a question recently that said it was more likely that we get a new Fairytale plane than we get a return to Lorwyn

This only makes sense given that everyone is familiar with Grimm-variety fairy tales (and darker versions of them are a reasonably big pop culture thing now) while approximately nobody understands true Celtic lore or knows how to track words like "Gwyllion" in their brain.

What rule requires Tribal supertype? Like to me it seems that with only a few small changes they could get rid of tribal super type and still have creature subtypes on noncreatures.

Every type has access to exactly one kind of subtype. Only creatures always have them, and only creature types are all "safe" -- land, artifact, and planeswalker subtypes have mechanical baggage, while enchantment and spell subtypes have been used in ways that would break if you could freely change them, so you can't just let cards throw around any kind of subtype willy-nilly. Similarly, if you let non-creature permanents just have creature types, you can open up weird shenanigans. The idea that the "Type" implementation of Tribal makes more sense than the "Supertype" one is still pretty sketch, but the idea that they need a marker to do this given how the rest of the system is built makes perfect sense.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-grixis-control-34623#paper

I think you're very wrong, this is a control deck in every way possible.

Yeah, this is 100% a classic control deck. It's got all the markers: low creature count oriented around quality over volume, extensive permission and board control to prevent the opponent from sticking anything useful, toolbox cards to have solutions to different threats, card advantage (pure draws, reuse value like Snapcaster, and selection advantage via cantrips) to empower the deck in the late game. It's a tempo variant because Modern is a tempo-oriented format, but it's straight-up a control deck.

 

[Firemind]

There is no place for fairly played colored 8 mana cards in modern. The deck plays 8 ish counterspells, 8 ish draw spells, 8-10 removal spells. It's a control deck.

Ah but Grixis Haterator was a legit control deck in the wild wild west Extended and that format had Dark Depths, Bloodbraid Elf, Sword of the Meek, JTMS, Seething Song, Chrome Mox. Chrome Mox adds more to control decks than Simian Spirit Guide because it adds mana over multiple turns. Grixis even sometimes played a singleton Nicol Bolas because it could add three colours with Mox.

Maybe a good compromise would be to ban Simian Spirit Guide and unban Chrome Mox?

 

[Haly]

Gaelic fairytail would be cool.

And Wizards can teach everyone how to pronounce Cú Chulainn.

 

[HK-47]

Ah but Grixis Haterator was a legit control deck in the wild wild west Extended and that format had Dark Depths, Bloodbraid Elf, Sword of the Meek, JTMS, Seething Song, Chrome Mox. Chrome Mox adds more to control decks than Simian Spirit Guide because it adds mana over multiple turns. Grixis even sometimes played a singleton Nicol Bolas because it could add three colours with Mox.

Maybe a good compromise would be to ban Simian Spirit Guide and unban Chrome Mox?

Moxes have never done anything good.

 

[charlequin]

Let's just compare it to Death's Shadow Jund. The deck runs a bunch of removal, a bunch of cycling, disruption through discard and a very limited amount of creatures. By those metrics it's a control deck.

DSJ runs no card advantage engines and has its spell count focused primarily on 1-for-1 disruption and burst damage stuff like Temur Battle Rage. It isn't a control deck because its victory scenarios don't involve clearing the opponent's hand and board and then moving through with a protected threat; they're based around 1-for-1 trades that put you up on mana (i.e. tempo plays) and then winning with quick burst damage before your opponent can re-stabilize.

Even just look at the matchup these two decks have -- DSJ's strategy here is to get in underneath with big damage, because if it takes long enough to get rolling Grixis can just nuke its limited set of threats and then own the board.

 

[Santiako]

So 4c Copycat takes both GPs, I wonder if the cat survives tomorrow (I doubt it).

 

[HK-47]

Man watching the SCG 5c match. Chat is brutalizing the nervous abzan coco player.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

DSJ runs no card advantage engines and has its spell count focused primarily on 1-for-1 disruption and burst damage stuff like Temur Battle Rage. It isn't a control deck because its victory scenarios don't involve clearing the opponent's hand and board and then moving through with a protected threat; they're based around 1-for-1 trades that put you up on mana (i.e. tempo plays) and then winning with quick burst damage before your opponent can re-stabilize.

Even just look at the matchup these two decks have -- DSJ's strategy here is to get in underneath with big damage, because if it takes long enough to get rolling Grixis can just nuke its limited set of threats and then own the board.

DSJ does run either or both 3 cmc Lilianas, either of which does just what you're saying. They are Card Advantage engines that grind the opponent out and Last Hope even ends the game on her own.

 

[HK-47]

So 4c Copycat takes both GPs, I wonder if the cat survives tomorrow (I doubt it).

I hope so because its a cool card. Saheeli should be the one banned.

 

[bigkrev]

Standard seems healthy

 

[Santiako]

I hope so because its a cool card. Saheeli should be the one banned.

True. Saheeli is useless outside the combo, and the card loses all monetary value regardless of which of the two gets banned.

 

[charlequin]

DSJ does run either or both 3 cmc Lilianas

Including a Planeswalker does not a control deck make. I mean, yes, you're looking at decks in Modern, a fast format that tends toward hybridization, so none of these are going to be the most cut-and-dry possible. There's still a huge gap between DSJ (which is a tempo deck that leverages PWs to shore up its lousy late game) and Grixis (which is a control deck that creates massive card advantage and leverages stuff like Tasigur to shore up its crappy early game.)

Standard seems healthy

He was saying yesterday that WotC is in a no-win situation (no bans and the format stays garbage, bans and it shakes confidence further) but I think it's a pretty clear choice. If they skip bans on Monday it'll be a massive signal that they value head-in-the-sand optics over actual playable formats and tourney attendance will just crater. Once they've already broken the seal on Standard-format bans having to do cleanup in a later announcement isn't nearly as harmful.

 

[Santiako]

Look at those standard numbers and then look at top 32 of the SCG Open:

TOP 32 DECKLISTS

There's everything in there.

 

[HK-47]

Look at those standard numbers and then look at top 32 of the SCG Open:

TOP 32 DECKLISTS

There's everything in there.

Also they need to do is print a decade and a half worth of cards. Except the blue ones, if you believe reddit and twitch.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Including a Planeswalker does not a control deck make. I mean, yes, you're looking at decks in Modern, a fast format that tends toward hybridization, so none of these are going to be the most cut-and-dry possible. There's still a huge gap between DSJ (which is a tempo deck that leverages PWs to shore up its lousy late game) and Grixis (which is a control deck that creates massive card advantage and leverages stuff like Tasigur to shore up its crappy early game.)

Neither does adding draw threes. Within the constraints of modern Grixis Control might be the closest to actual control but it's not far removed from decks that would be considered aggro.

Spoiler

Or whatever DSJ is

 

[Infinite Stars]

True. Saheeli is useless outside the combo, and the card loses all monetary value regardless of which of the two gets banned.

Nah, Saheeli at least can copy the Gearhulks/Artifacts. That's useful for.. Something? Maybe Grixis Improvise?

 

[charlequin]

Neither does adding draw threes.

Yes, it's adding draw threes and card selection cantrips and AOE damage and counterspells and flexible toolbox destruction cards, mostly in the place of threats, that does it.

 

[GoutPatrol]

Neither does adding draw threes. Within the constraints of modern Grixis Control might be the closest to actual control but it's not far removed from decks that would be considered aggro.

Spoiler

Or whatever DSJ is

So control decks are only allowed to have 1-4 "win the game" cards?

 

[Jhriad]

Well, the Probe ban is a part of the decrease of Infect. Probe gave you information, fueled Become Immense, and drew a card for 2 life. Push being a card now definitely hurts Infect, but Infect now lacking the ability to see if the coast is clear hurts it just as much.

I do think Infect will bounce back, it's just I don't know in what form. Become Immense is probably out (and I could see something else leaving with it, maybe a less painful manabase now that BI is gone)

Probe hurts but the deck was already losing ground with the printing of EDM. Collective Brutality, Liliana tLH, and Blessed Alliance all shaved​ points from your active win percentage and newer cards like Fatal Push just makes the field actively more hostile. The combined effect of all the new cards outweighs Probe by a good bit. Don't take this as me saying the card shouldn't have been banned, it deserved it, but coverage laying it all at the feet of the ban is being overly reductive about the real factors keeping Infect from Tier 1.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Yes, it's adding draw threes and card selection cantrips and AOE damage and counterspells and flexible toolbox destruction cards, mostly in the place of threats, that does it.

You can equate, while not wholly accurate, card selection cantrips with playing worldly tutor and discard with counterspells, they are running the same and/or similar toolbox destruction cards and a similar amount of threats.

 

[Infinite Stars]

I saw this comment on Reddit and I kind of have to repost it, because it's true with Standard Recently

Meanwhile they've now fixed the color pie by making sure the best card draw is in green, where it belongs!

And I'm not kidding.

If somebody told you a planeswalker had "+1: Draw a card", what color do you think it'd be? The answer, of course, is mono-green: it's Nissa, Sage Animist.

If somebody told you that a card very close to Ponder had been printed? What color do you think it'd be? Green, of course! It's Oath of Nissa.

Want a repeatable Ponder effect? Look no further than Duskwatch Recruiter, because card selection is green now.

If somebody told you there was a card that had repeatable card draw and rewarded you for making land drops and leaving mana up, what color would you expect? Why, Tireless Tracker is green, the color of draw-go!

How about a planeswalker who lets you draw cards for playing lands? Yup, Nissa, Vital Force is here to reinforce that card draw is squarely green now. And once you've got her emblem, why not tick up a Nissa, Voice of Zendikar to draw more cards?

How about a big flashy blowout card-drawing effect that also gives you a free spell? Rishkar's Expertise shows that this is absolutely a green effect.

Heck, even the planeswalker-deck version of Nissa has a repeatable draw-two effect stapled on.

If they were still taking mailbag questions I'd just ask: when did card selection and card draw become primary in green and quarternary in blue?

Probe hurts but the deck was already losing ground with the printing of EDM. Collective Brutality, Liliana tLH, and Blessed Alliance all shaved​ points from your active win percentage and newer cards like Fatal Push just makes the field actively more hostile. The combined effect of all the new cards outweighs Probe by a good bit. Don't take this as me saying the card shouldn't have been banned, it deserved it, but coverage laying it all at the feet of the ban is being overly reductive about the real factors keeping Infect from Tier 1.

Infect was around 7-10% for a good part of the last year. While Blessed Alliance/Brutality/Liliana all were good against the deck, only one was played in the Deck to beat last year(Dredge), and Brutality's Sorcery speed couldn't deal with Inkmoth that well.

I think it's ultimately a chicken/egg question in regards to Infect basically dying off post ban wrt Probe Ban/Push printing. The previous interaction was good, but it didn't hurt infect since those decks (Bant Eldrazi/Jund/Abzan) were generally not super great vs Dredge.

 

[Wulfric]

Ooof, those Top 8s are a mess. More like Top 2 eh? The Jund energy deck is cute though.

The ban announcement is tomorrow at noon right? I know it sets a really bad precedence, but a ban will make people upset, and no ban will make them upset too. What a shitty spot to be in.

 

[Jhriad]

Look at those standard numbers and then look at top 32 of the SCG Open:

TOP 32 DECKLISTS

There's everything in there.

Huh. There's not a single traditional Abzan or Jund list there. Interesting. Also, the got Revolt Zoo listed as Abzan Aggro which is weird.

 

[Jhriad]

but it didn't hurt infect since those decks (Bant Eldrazi/Jund/Abzan) were generally not super great vs Dredge.

As an Infect player, I'll politely disagree given the percentage of the field those decks tended to represent but there's reasonable arguments either way.

 

[SigmasonicX]

If Gideon is banned, which I'm favoring more after seeing the top 8 results for both GPs, do you think Reflector Mage should be unbanned?
EDIT: To clarify, still in favor of Felidar Guardian also being banned.

 

[Santiako]

I think they'll ride out Gideon until October and just ban Saheeli or the cat.

 

[bigkrev]

If Gideon is banned, which I'm favoring more after seeing the top 8 results for both GPs, do you think Reflector Mage should be unbanned?

What is the purpose of unbanning a card 6 weeks after you banned it initially? I can't think of a better way to show someone that WOTC has no fucking clue what they are doing

 

[Infinite Stars]

What is the purpose of unbanning a card 6 weeks after you banned it initially? I can't think of a better way to show someone that WOTC has no fucking clue what they are doing

They missed CopyCat, so it's not like the thought "they have any idea what they're doing" would be a new idea.

Reflector Mage is staying on though, and if they keep Gideon around it's only going to cause more issues for the remainder of his life. Heart of Kiran on Defense works when there's an actual cost to ticking down.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Got some more testing with my K&T deck and I managed to win a game on a mull to 5 with scapeshift. Valakut and prismatic omen in play, scapeshift for vesuva, krosan verge, 2 fetchlands, a thespian stage and dark depths to kill 1 player and with the fetches next turn kill the other.

Also remembered a card to add and realized I had to cut a bunch of the cycling lands

Surprised this isn't played more in EDH

Also should I play carpet of flowers?

 

[charlequin]

If Gideon is banned, which I'm favoring more after seeing the top 8 results for both GPs, do you think Reflector Mage should be unbanned?

Nothing has ever been unbanned in Standard and I have no idea why people are even discussing it now.

 

[Card Boy]

Plz ban Gideon. I sold him for $40 and want to rebuy him cheap for EDH.