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Magic: the Gathering |OT8| Eldritch Moon - It's only a paper (and digital) moon

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I had the feeling that this thread was moving faster than the previous ones, but I just checked, and no, we're about on track with the Shadows over Innistrad thread.

Incidentally, I was amused to see just how much we were all shitting on Always Watching when it was revealed. We really couldn't imagine a go-wide deck that didn't rely on tokens.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I had the feeling that this thread was moving faster than the previous ones, but I just checked, and no, we're about on track with the Shadows over Innistrad thread.

Incidentally, I was amused to see just how much we were all shitting on Always Watching when it was revealed. We really couldn't imagine a go-wide deck that didn't rely on tokens.
Imagine if they printed Intangible Virtue right now.
 

Ri'Orius

Member
See, what you're advocating is for the game to be played under a different set of rules, and then judging other people's character for not playing under the rules you think should have been in place. The competitive tournament rules don't allow judges to let you change what you did just because you didn't understand the implications of what you did, and I can't imagine that the game would be a better place if they tried to amend the competitive rule set to allow for "oops my bad" takesies-backsies.

(emphasis mine)

It isn't a question of unintended implications. That'd be something like drawing two cards not recognizing that his opponent had a Fate Unraveler in play and he was about to take lethal. There are definitely times when a player can choose to do something that has unintended negative consequences, and I agree that that is something they should be held to.

That's not what the Esper Charm case is about, though. It's entirely obvious what the guy intended to do. He didn't misplay, he misspoke. Back in the day I read an article about Rule by Intent, and looking back on it I think this is a clear case where it should've been used to give the guy his two cards.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
The thing about Wolfbot is that there are ways to break having a 5/5 in play even if it can't do anything.

Off the top of my head I don't know one, but I would be surprised if there wasn't a way to make that good.
 
[*] "Unambiguously immoral and scummy" seems like a crazy thing to say here, considering that Cedric literally did exactly what you're supposed to do when something weird happens - call a judge.

This is so disingenuous. Nothing "weird" happened. No person capable of playing Magic at a competitive level would ever be confused about what was happening at that game state, ever. The only thought process that can possibly produce a judge call there is realizing that if you're lucky you can con your opponent into agreeing with a seemingly innocuous statement and then persuade the judge to punish them for it.

Also, what happens in the story is not that Cedric calls a judge immediately when he (claims to) perceive an uncertainty -- he carefully ensures his opponent verbally commits to the claim he's going to leverage, then calls a judge to come sign off on his victory. He purposely arranges the scenario to make it less likely that the judge clarifies the state of play as expected and more likely that the judge forces the opponent into an illogical play they've supposedly made.

His "clarifying" question isn't asked with honest intent, because the entire goal is for it to sound unimportant but actually lock the opponent into this illogical play. If this sort of thing is "legitimate," the right response is to stop play and call a judge every time an opponent asks any clarifying question, which is absolutely a destructive lesson to impart to players.

Cedric didn't lead his opponent into making a mistake - he simply held his opponent to it.

There is no legitimate scenario in which one can fairly characterize that as "a mistake." The opponent did something whose intent is 100% obvious. If a person saw this and told me they were legitimately confused, I would call them a liar, because that person is not being honest.

(Specifically skipping all the actual rules lawyery justification since it's not honest when Cedric offers it up and it shouldn't be relevant to this scenario.)

But now you're asking the tournament rules to be able to decipher intent

Nope, I'm asking judges to do so. Humans serve as arbiters in this game so that scenarios that are ambiguous or uncertain can be resolved. Their job isn't there to be rules dispensers, it's to serve as the human agents that enable play to run smoothly and fairly. In this case, the judge failed in that responsibility.

But Cedric literally did nothing wrong.

This attitude is literally the reason that playing any form of semi-competitive Magic is so miserable. The concept of sportsmanship or that there's some value to winning in an earnest contest of skill isn't anywhere near the table; it's the philosophy of doing as much as you can conceivably get away with in every possible sphere to win, even if game skill never enters into it. It's just deeply unpleasant.
 

Firemind

Member
I think Karn is the wrong choice by a pretty significant margin here. I think you're dramatically underestimating the value of completely free, permanent acceleration.
It's only free if you have something to spend it on. Like if you have 4+ mana spells you want to accelerate out, signets do the exact same thing. It's only a small % where the actual free cost of not spending two mana for a signet matters in the long run. Sure, you can play less lands with moxes, but again, it's a small % where it actually matters. A card like Karn can also affect the outcome in a number of situations. That's why it's important to weigh the advantages and disadvantages of a pick.

Like, personally, I'd pick Tinker super high, even as a first pick, because of how much it can win games.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
It's only free if you have something to spend it on. Like if you have 4+ mana spells you want to accelerate out, signets do the exact same thing. It's only a small % where the actual free cost of not spending two mana for a signet matters in the long run. Sure, you can play less lands with moxes, but again, it's a small % where it actually matters. A card like Karn can also affect the outcome in a number of situations. That's why it's important to weigh the advantages and disadvantages of a pick.

Like, personally, I'd pick Tinker super high, even as a first pick, because of how much it can win games.
Karn is a bomb but he's just that. Cube is full of bombs.

I love Vintage Cube. It's back next week and I intend to spend a lot on it again.
 

kirblar

Member
Is it more, or less difficult to balance Legendary creatures? They have a built in stopgap measure, but also come tagged as special, and possibly exceptionally powerful

From Dave Humpherys:

I’d say Legendary creatures are harder to balance in that there is a narrower set of solutions that work as fixes for any problems a card might have due to the character we are trying to portray. We can have ideas for mechanical fixes that don’t match what you’d expect of that character. That said, Legendary is a powerful tool for letting us make cards we otherwise would be hesitant to make. I’d suggested the design for Thalia, Guardian of Thraben long ago, but that’s not a card I’d want to see multiples of on the battlefield because it could get really frustrating. Legendary helps us in that way. Thalia, Heretic Cathar is another example where Legendary can help us when a card’s effect doesn’t ‘stack’ because that situation can’t arise so the feel bad in game play doesn’t come up.
Development: Dear Mark, you're wrong.
 

Nikodemos

Member
Best MTG art

or bestest MTG art

tumblr_o9lf31ANQB1u9beo8o1_1280.jpg
Harmless Offering is in the Top 5 MtG artworks of all time. Everything about it is perfect.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
I just noticed one of its lower paws is also emrakul'd. What a delightfully subtle piece.
 
The MTG Developer blog finally started answering questions, and there were some interesting responses. I'm including mostly everything that was answered today.

Favorite cards, which actually includes interesting insight on cards like Ashiok and the new Chandra. Linking only, because I don't want to bother embedding all of those images.

Current state of control
lawfulnice asked:
How do you feel about the current state of control and permission decks in Standard? It sometimes feels like blue has lost almost all of its identity as counterspells, card drawing, and bounce have all been reduced in quality and quantity.

Awesome question! I’m a blue control player at heart, too.

My answer is that we intentionally try to make different strategies vary in strength across different standard seasons. It’s true that blue-based control decks aren’t popular in standard right now (and blue in general is a little weaker than we’d like), but it wasn’t long ago that UB control and Esper Dragons fueled by Dig Through Time were top decks. Before that, we had Sphinx’s Revelation control decks in RTR-THS standard.

When we’re “taking a break” from pushing strong control decks in standard, we try to find other cool things for blue to do. My favorite recently was Mono-Blue Devotion with Thassa and Master of Waves.

The danger of always having strong, general-purpose counterspells and card draw around is that it can create decks that don’t care what the opponent is doing – they’ll just counter it regardless. In my opinion it’s more fun when counterspells are tactical answers to certain types of threats, rather than cards you blindly play “on curve”.

Dissolve, Silumgar’s Scorn, Ojutai’s/Silumgar’s Command and Clash of Wills are some recent counterspells that I think ended up in a fun spot and saw play at the highest levels. We’ll certainly continue to see blue control cards around that power level showing up in future sets.

-Ian

Too strong for Standard
wallycaine asked:
One thing that frequently comes up, especially when talking about reprints, is the notion of cards being "too strong for standard". Are there general rules you apply for that, or is it more of a feel thing, and in either case, could you give us some idea of the work that goes into determining if something fits into that box?

Great one! I can already tell we’re going to get a lot of questions in this area. : )

It’s a complicated topic and there’s no one clear measurement we can apply to a card. One way I like to think about it is “If we gave a card this strong to a color, would we have to take something else away to compensate?” For example, if blue had Counterspell in standard, we’d have to pull back greatly on things like bounce and card draw, otherwise it would be too easy to keep the battlefield clear and refill with more cards.

A somewhat recent example is that when Lightning Bolt was in standard (with Magic 2010 and 2011, long before my time here), I’m told that the development team of the time had to pull back on a lot of other areas where red could have been powerful. The result was that a lot of decks splashed red just for Lightning Bolt, and there wasn’t as much reason to be base red. That dynamic can often cut back on deck diversity. In general we’d rather spread out the power among lots of different things each color can do, rather than concentrate it in one card or area.

Another reason is that by not having the absolute most pushed version of each type of effect, we open up a lot of design space to have meaningful choices between alternatives. For example, choosing between Magma Spray to exile creatures at instant speed versus Lava Spike to deal extra damage directly to your opponent leads to more creative deckbuilding and shifting metagames than the correct answer always being Lightning Bolt.

-Ian

Avacyn's power level
eternalcheechako asked:
knowing what you know now, would you have made avacyn as strong as you did?

From Dave Humpherys (as lead of Shadow over Innistrad):

Yes. Ideally, I’d also go back and give a little more love to some other colors here as well, but I’m happy with her as a card. It was a goal that Avacyn be an impactful card in Standard this time around, especially knowing her fate in the story of this set. We intentionally pushed her to the point where she would be an exciting card and have a home in competitive decks, and that Dragonlord Ojutai wouldn’t just overshadow Avacyn as a better card by fostering better decks than hers. By getting to this level with her suite of abilities we expected this meant she would create new Green/White decks. While these decks have turned out to be more consistent and impressive that we’d have predicted, I’m not sad about how we developed her yet.

Revisiting surge
blakerboy777 asked:
What's one mechanic that hope to revisit because you wish Development had pushed it more the first time around?

From Yoni Skolnik:

I’m definitely hoping we get to give Surge another look one day. Oath of the Gatewatch didn’t have a ton of room to experiment with the mechanic beyond where it ended up in blue and red. Now, Reckless Bushwhacker, Fall of the Titans, and Crush of Tentacles were all cool relevant cards, but I think the mechanic has a lot more potential in other spaces.

How Pauper is considered
Anonymous asked:
Is the Pauper metagame something you take into account when developing commons? If so, how important is it compared to, say, Limited? I'd be particularly intrigued to hear about your thought process in downshifting many cards to common for the first time in Eternal Masters.

From Adam Prosak (lead developer of Eternal Masters):

With our main sets, commons serve as the backbone for limited play, and we put most of our attention there. We allow for commons to be constructed cards (usually Standard or Pauper), but our focus is on limited.

With reprint sets such as Vintage Masters and Eternal Masters, limited still plays a primary role, but we do keep pauper in mind when making the sets. Usually we will do a pass on all of the cards that have been downshifted to common to make sure that we are happy with the cards we are downshifting. For example, Nimble Mongoose, Elvish Vanguard, and Yavimaya Enchantress were all included to make their respective archetypes work in Eternal Masters limited, but we were also happy to either create or improve an archetype in Pauper.

Finally, due to how our schedules work, Eternal Masters was finalized before Cloud of Faeries was banned in Pauper. I think that if I knew that we were going to ban Cloud of Faeries in Pauper, I would’ve been much less likely to include Peregrine Drake in Eternal Masters. I believe that Peregrine drake is weaker than Cloud of Faeries, but both cards lead to the same degenerate combination with Ghostly Flicker.

Vampires in Standard
Anonymous asked:
From SOI, what fact of the current Standard metagame surprised you the most? Did you expect a colour to dominate that's underrepresented in actual play? Did you think a card would be a staple and it ended up not being played? I'd especially like to know what you expected of Vampire tribal. It seems like there's some building blocks to a meta deck in the set, but it doesn't seem to get played much if at all. Or did you think vampires would just be a draft tribe?

From Adam Prosak:

Lots of questions here, but I’ll speak to the point about Vampires:

Getting Vampires (and most of the non-human tribes) to work was quite a challenge because we needed to give you all of the cards you would need in just two sets. Our strategy for Vampires was to split the cards you’ll need for a Vampire deck among Shadows over Innistrad and Eldritch Moon. So we did not think that Vampires were strong enough with just the Shadows Over Innistrad cards, but we hope that Eldritch Moon provides a significant boost to your Vampire deck.
 
I think it's okay to have half baked tribes. As a kid we would make the dumbest decks with little support and they could still be broken in the casual meta. There's definitely some kids out there loving their BR vampire decks built just with SOI and BFZ/OGW cards.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Someone shoulda asked where Lightning Strike went
 

OnPoint

Member
Dig out your Allosaurus Riders and put em in plastics. The card has jumped to like 35 bucks.

T1: Allosaurus Rider, Forest, Birds
T2: Forest, Eldrich Evolution - get Iona/Grisselbrand

GG
 
Dig out your Allosaurus Riders and put em in plastics. The card has jumped to like 35 bucks.

T1: Allosaurus Rider, Forest, Birds
T2: Forest, Eldrich Evolution - get Iona/Grisselbrand

GG

The card, for those unfamiliar
2.jpg


Usually, it's weak as hell if you bring it out on turn 1, but the mana cost is what's important here.
 

Toxi

Banned
This attitude is literally the reason that playing any form of semi-competitive Magic is so miserable. The concept of sportsmanship or that there's some value to winning in an earnest contest of skill isn't anywhere near the table; it's the philosophy of doing as much as you can conceivably get away with in every possible sphere to win, even if game skill never enters into it. It's just deeply unpleasant.
People like Cedric are why I switched most of my resources over to X-Wing, a game where the competitive scene in general is much less assholish and I can actually enjoy playing with strangers.

(Also it's a million times cheaper)
 

Crocodile

Member
I'm not going to defend Cedric in the "Esper Charm Controversy" but I will state for the record that I have met, spoken with, interacted with Cedric many times over the course of the past few years and I've never found him to be anything but to be a stand up guy. That incident isn't what I'd call the best of looks but I have nothing but good things to say about him.

I think it's okay to have half baked tribes. As a kid we would make the dumbest decks with little support and they could still be broken in the casual meta. There's definitely some kids out there loving their BR vampire decks built just with SOI and BFZ/OGW cards.

Not all tribes need to be Tier 1 decks but they do need to have a good curve and you should be able to take them to FNM without getting embarrassed. I think it's a bad thing that some tribes are pretty much traps (Hello Spirits!). I hope EDM fixes that.
 

kirblar

Member
He's a very friendly nice person when people interact in public.

That's not where the issues lie - it's with stuff like the way he treated players w/ legit complaints about the police presence at their Philly event. It's really gross, but it's also not obvious.
 
I generally agree that excessive rules lawyering and collusion in competitive Magic point toward a problem of a fundamental lack of sportsmanship, but would note that for other professional endeavors, there's an important distinction to make:

Sportsmanship is generally much higher if there's a "salaried" role for the game.

Basically, if the primary way of making money as a "professional" in the game is through prize pools rather than salaries (either literal ones or figurative ones from endorsements), the odds of the players acting like utter and complete prats goes up enormously. This has been true of basically every sport, esport, or betting game I have ever partaken in or been aware of.

You put someone's (prospective) livelihood on the line in a situation where their honor, in balance, is without a real financial value, and suddenly everyone's a lot less sporting. I think the only reason DOTA2 players or boxers show any more sportsmanship than Magic players--and god knows it isn't much--is because they have better potential revenue streams outside the prize pools (streaming, endorsements, etc.).
 

kirblar

Member
I assumed this was about the new play-from-exile-drazi before I looked up to see the question, but it's cool, I agree either way.
It's something that's fundamentally obvious to anyone with a modicum of ability to see through the eyes of a competitive player and look at the effect of it on game design.

Sadly, the only thing MaRo sees is "BUT WE COULD SELL MORE PACKS IF YOU ALWAYS PLAYED 4".
 

y2dvd

Member
I had the feeling that this thread was moving faster than the previous ones, but I just checked, and no, we're about on track with the Shadows over Innistrad thread.

Incidentally, I was amused to see just how much we were all shitting on Always Watching when it was revealed. We really couldn't imagine a go-wide deck that didn't rely on tokens.

You should know by now that gaf are experts but are terrible at evaluating cards haha.
 
Basically, if the primary way of making money as a "professional" in the game is through prize pools rather than salaries (either literal ones or figurative ones from endorsements), the odds of the players acting like utter and complete prats goes up enormously. This has been true of basically every sport, esport, or betting game I have ever partaken in or been aware of.

This is definitely true, although it's part of why I a) want community standards to get more unforgiving as an alternate source of pressure on this and b) I want judges to as a policy discourage this type of thing more aggressively.

Sadly, the only thing MaRo sees is "BUT WE COULD SELL MORE PACKS IF YOU ALWAYS PLAYED 4".

In Maro's slight defense (???) I don't think he actually cares much about selling packs relative to, like, corporate expectations, I think he's just bad at development and therefore doesn't understand how valuable a downside players will actually accept really is.
 

red13th

Member
don't crush my dreams, Allosaurus Evolution is gonna be the top tier modern deck, it will never be banned and I'll make a lot of money out of my 40 Riders!
 
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