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Magic: the Gathering |OT9| Kaladesh - Cruisin' Down the Street in my 6/4

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bigkrev

Member
Hareruya has posted their Frontier introduction page. I quoted the interesting bits. Smh, it's still too early for this sort of thing. The only thing this will do is fragment the people who are only halfheartedly playing standard.

The people in this country who seem most excited by this format are all the same people who hated Abzan Rally and then hated Bant CoCo.

This format might make sense in 3 years, but it makes none right now. I personally don't feel like we need a new format, but at some point, a Medium-sized Extended (5-6 years worth of cards) might be a good idea. When we get to 2021, Modern will have the same number of years in it's cardpool that Legacy had when Modern was invented.
 
If I'm understanding the general grumblings correctly,
* Standard prices have successfully gone down, but the main way players buy into Modern and other nonrotating formats is by selling their Standard cards, and this limits that.
* There are some complaints about stuff Wizards appears to already be addressing, namely that there are too many products.

For the former, I hadn't thought of that. Masterpiece cards have drawn value away from cards in Standard, so Standard decks can't be sold for as much. Given that, Wizards really does need to do more to make nonrotating formats easier to get into. And I don't think Frontier is the answer.

(Also, avatar change)
 
Wizards has been neglecting one of the greatest strengths of magic for a long time: diversity in play style. Being able to play the game how you want is a large reason its popular, but Wizards has been funneling towards a creature centric playstyle for a while now. Though I do consider Kaladesh to be an improvement in that regard, plenty of ways to do things to be found there.

I just don't really buy the idea that creature decks are "one playstyle." There's no sensible archetype breakdown that goes "creatureless control, creatureless lock, creatureless combo, burn... and then all creature decks." And creatureless or creature-light decks continue to win in multiple formats on occasion. I feel like this point usually means "let's go back to uncompromised permission and lock decks," which, ugh, no.

I dont get conspiracy. Its a very cool limited format, but stores run it for a weekend and thats it. I dont even see GPs having it as a quickfire event.

A lot of people play Magic with their friends, actually?

I'm not much of a draft player, so draft cards don't do a thing for me. And conspiracies are different for each player, which adds more rules for every player at the table, instead of applying the same rules for every player. And voting is another lengthy phase they added in the game itself.

Not to argue with your other points (which are reasonable despite my disagreement), but there isn't really a big rules burden in conspiracy. Of the 25 cards printed with the Conspiracy type, only two have an effect on anyone else but you -- one makes you the starting player, and one gives everyone else a token at the beginning of the game. The effects of the others can really be treated exactly as if they were enchantments that only affect the casting player, the only dfference is how they get into play.

For the former, I hadn't thought of that. Masterpiece cards have drawn value away from cards in Standard, so Standard decks can't be sold for as much.

I don't think this really considers the whole flipside here, though. If you previously made standard decks that were $200 and resold them for like $160, and now you make decks that are worth $100 and resell for $80, you're $20 better off after each rotation in total. Similarly, if you buy enough sealed product on average, the Masterpiece you'll wind up getting will even out your losses on the Standard cards. The only people who really lose out in value here are people who buy sealed product, but not enough to really average out to a Masterpiece. (Well and MTGO players, lulz.) I think the real core of the problem isn't any more complex than non-rotating staples being too expensive due to underprinting and the Reserved List.
 

Wulfric

Member
I don't think this really considers the whole flipside here, though. If you previously made standard decks that were $200 and resold them for like $160, and now you make decks that are worth $100 and resell for $80, you're $20 better off after each rotation in total. Similarly, if you buy enough sealed product on average, the Masterpiece you'll wind up getting will even out your losses on the Standard cards. The only people who really lose out in value here are people who buy sealed product, but not enough to really average out to a Masterpiece. (Well and MTGO players, lulz.) I think the real core of the problem isn't any more complex than non-rotating staples being too expensive due to underprinting and the Reserved List.

Oh geez, I hadn't though about the buylist/resale aspect at all. I admit there's a certain sweet spot where you can sell your deck and not lose a ton of money, right around Pro Tours or if your cards are on a GP vendor's hot list.

People who are heavily into standard right now won't be looking to get into non-rotating formats for at least another year and a half. The only thing we can be sure of is that the average trade binder won't be worth as much due to the Masterpiece series.
 

HK-47

Oh, bitch bitch bitch.
I just don't really buy the idea that creature decks are "one playstyle." There's no sensible archetype breakdown that goes "creatureless control, creatureless lock, creatureless combo, burn... and then all creature decks." And creatureless or creature-light decks continue to win in multiple formats on occasion. I feel like this point usually means "let's go back to uncompromised permission and lock decks," which, ugh, no.



.

What creature light or creatureless decks?
 

explodet

Member
I don't see the problem with changing the rules for each player - after all, isn't that what a bunch of cards already do? Are you also against cards like Telepathy and Ghostly Prison?
Not at all, after all changing the rules is pretty much one of the foundations of the game. But those enchantments aren't free like Conspiracies are.

For me it's mostly about the piling on of extra mechanics. Conspiracy complicates drafting and complicates the main game by a factor of the number of players. I'm just not a fan, that's all.

Besides, Commander decks were coming out later and I like playing that format.

Not to argue with your other points (which are reasonable despite my disagreement), but there isn't really a big rules burden in conspiracy. Of the 25 cards printed with the Conspiracy type, only two have an effect on anyone else but you -- one makes you the starting player, and one gives everyone else a token at the beginning of the game. The effects of the others can really be treated exactly as if they were enchantments that only affect the casting player, the only dfference is how they get into play.
Yeah, I know I'm being REALLY nitpicky with conspiracy cards. They're totally not bad on their own. I think my money is better spent on cards that my friends would let me play with.
 

Ashodin

Member
I need this for my Seton Krosan Protector EDH.

144.jpg


Yes, that's permanent +2/+2 and horsemanship. on a sorcery
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
And all those people are keeping Conspiracy going on their own?

My friends and I went through three boxes of the original Conspiray over the course of a year and a half. It had a long tail on it, and its more than we bought of any other set that year for sure, in terms of raw numbers
 

alternade

Member
I wouldn't touch modern now, commander all day baby. Why don't they follow suit with that format and make silver bullets and actually interesting cards to push the staples aside a bit?
 
Ishkanah always seemed as a pushed constructed card, not a card made for EDH?
MaRo didn't talk one thing about constructed when revealing the card.
MaRo said:
One last thing before I call it a day and wrap up my column. I have a preview card to show you! This is one I handpicked because it is something that players have been bothering me to make for a long time. Ever since Commander became a popular format, players write to me whenever there's a creature type they want to make a deck around that doesn't yet have a commander. The number one request I get is for a legendary Bear, but today's preview is my number two request.

Yes, we've finally made a legendary Spider. I'm surprised it took us this long. Note that we gave it a black activation to make its color identity black-green, as that's usually what players ask for. (How can you not put Spider Spawning in your Spider deck?) The card makes Spider tokens and has Spider tribal, so you're welcome, Spider-loving Commander players.
It's why most everyone was disappointed with the card, since no one even thought about constructed when evaluating her.
 

bigkrev

Member
and then it turns out to be amazing against aggro

And there are plenty of occasions where playing Ishkanah number 2 just to make extra tokens is the correct strategic play. Apart from the blurb about them trying to make it a Commander cards, it screams out as a development designed card to be a staple, and they decided to make it legendary so that slamming down a second copy doesn't just end the game against Aggro decks
 

Ashodin

Member
And there are plenty of occasions where playing Ishkanah number 2 just to make extra tokens is the correct strategic play. Apart from the blurb about them trying to make it a Commander cards, it screams out as a development designed card to be a staple, and they decided to make it legendary so that slamming down a second copy doesn't just end the game against Aggro decks

tell me a fucking bout it
 
Speaking about that, what are you even playing right now Ashodin. I'm gonna assume Boros but you haven't posted lists in a while.


Was it god's beard who tried out Epiphany at the Drownyard, I was at looking at the card recently as a 5th anticipate of sorts.
 

Ashodin

Member
I'm on the same list, just edited to go wider since the only thing I usually have to worry about is Fumigate

I'm using Reid Duke's RW Vehicles slotting of just three dec's too. Works real good and I draw my threats on time.

fJG1YDJ.gif
 

kirblar

Member
Oh look Wizards took away QPs from Friendly Draft Leagues. That wasn't a profit based decision at all.

They are so fucking bad at digital.
QPs and Friendly Draft Leagues doesn't seem like a good combination though?

Same reason you don't want to give prizes for MP Commander games.
 
QPs and Friendly Draft Leagues doesn't seem like a good combination though?

Same reason you don't want to give prizes for MP Commander games.

It still takes a very good player to win 6 packs. The idea that anyone who wants to win 6 packs is playing in a friendly manner is a bit of a farce, don't you think?
 
I'm on the same list, just edited to go wider since the only thing I usually have to worry about is Fumigate

I'm using Reid Duke's RW Vehicles slotting of just three dec's too. Works real good and I draw my threats on time.

fJG1YDJ.gif
I also hopped on the Tears of Valakut train for the side.

No blessed alliance or Stasis Snare, is your plan just to outrace Emrakul decks, I added a clip wings to my deck and how is your RG energy matchup? Are the 3 make a stands just for it or some backswing shenanigans.
There's a store here, $10 store credit for every kill you get in Commander MP games.
That sounds like it invites voltron and OHKO decks.
 

Ashodin

Member
Oddly enough my meta doesn't have Emrakul decks, or I just kill them too fast to see Emmy.

RG energy gets fuckin' wrecked by me. I play real careful with my life total against them, which usually ends me a win. Last time I played one I was at 3 life and still pulled it out.

I really really like Blessed Alliance. I want to use it.

Make a Stand is for board wipe + backswing surprise. Can also be use defensively vs. RG energy swings.

Tears of Valakut is super good. Hits Avacyn, Mindwrack Demon, Spell Queller... Just so much goodness. Dodges Negate, Void Shatter!
 
Oddly enough my meta doesn't have Emrakul decks, or I just kill them too fast to see Emmy.

RG energy gets fuckin' wrecked by me. I play real careful with my life total against them, which usually ends me a win. Last time I played one I was at 3 life and still pulled it out.

I really really like Blessed Alliance. I want to use it.

Make a Stand is for board wipe + backswing surprise. Can also be use defensively vs. RG energy swings.
I also only faced few Emrakul decks, probably because it's the 3rd truly expensive card in GB right now but those times I realized I had zero answers in the deck or the side aside from summary dismissal.
Oh yeah Make a Stand prevent all non human damage, that sounds disgusting

PWs are also such a pain in the arse of control decks, I don't think I'd be favoured if I went up against this list with summonings. My best bet would be Weaver of Lightning which I have 3 of in the side.
 

Ashodin

Member
? You're referring to Repel the Abominable. Also a good SB card for Radiant Flames. I used to use that but instead Make a Stand has more utility.

And yeah I was reading up on strategy and control decks fucking hate Gideon right now, which is why he's on top.

I've faced Weavers before, and typically save Declaration in Stones for them. Also having Stone Haven Outfitter be a 4/5(!) with just Inventor's Goggles makes combat tough for the opponent. They almost always have to use removal on him, which nets me a card.
 

Yeef

Member
There's a store here, $10 store credit for every kill you get in Commander MP games.
This isn't practical in my experience. You get too many situations where someone will interrupt a kill to take it themselves.
Player A swings for lethal on Player B.
Before damage, Player C kills player B with a burn spell.

You also get situations where players can pre-collude. "If we end up at the same table, let's have a truce and focus down the same guy; we'll split any prizes we win."

Magic just isn't designed very well for multiplayer and trying to do any sort of multiplayer prize structure magnifies the issues.
 

y2dvd

Member
Channel Fireball has a new article from Brian Demars about Standard

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/whats-the-matter-with-standard/

It's not a bad read, and his point about Standard being more about cards then decks is something I hadn't thought of.

The spread of information is true with all competitive games. Before esports was a thing, each region had its own play style and then you would see all different styles compete at nationals. Now things get solved so quickly, and a game can quickly get stale. Not anyone's fault in particular unfortunately.
 
The spread of information is true with all competitive games. Before esports was a thing, each region had its own play style and then you would see all different styles compete at nationals. Now things get solved so quickly, and a game can quickly get stale. Not anyone's fault in particular unfortunately.
Eh that'd be the fault of R&D for not making enough viable archetypes.
 

Santiako

Member
Today I did a Firecat Blits for 14, conspired it, flashbacked it for 6, conspired it, then burned at the stake all the tokens with conspire to kill 2 players at once.

feelsgoodman
 

Ashodin

Member
The spread of information is true with all competitive games. Before esports was a thing, each region had its own play style and then you would see all different styles compete at nationals. Now things get solved so quickly, and a game can quickly get stale. Not anyone's fault in particular unfortunately.

Basically the physical is trying to compete with the digital. It takes them so long to make physical cards, then that data is digitized and figured out by sheer player data.
 
Basically the physical is trying to compete with the digital. It takes them so long to make physical cards, then that data is digitized and figured out by sheer player data.

Exactly. Wizards makes about 900 Standard legal cards a year, given to us in about 300/150/300/150 bursts every 3 months. Even if there's only 10,000-50,000 people who follow the spoilers and brew along with them someone is bound to find the best way to use said card(if it's usable). Cockatrice, X-Mage, and other programs only further this, leading to even limited environments where the metagame is effectively solved by launch day(BFZs was "you're an idiot if you go Green").

This wasn't so much of an issue in KTK Standard, because you couldn't run a deck of just "Good Stuff" and beat every other deck. Sure, Abzan was mostly just good stuff, but even it's dominance didn't kill off a bunch of decks like 4C Good Stuff did in BFZ, or Bant Company/GW Tokens did in SoI.

Now, you've just a bunch of powerful cards and your deck is less about Synergy and more about luck. See Aetherworks Marvel.
 
And all those people are keeping Conspiracy going on their own?

Pretty much, yes. They keep it in print for a year and kitchen-table players continue to buy it through that whole window.

In his defense, Ishkanah is actually not bad as a commander.

Don't know why the hell Ulrich is the way he is, but at least Ishkanah is decent(not good, no, but decent).

We know why Ulrich is that way: because development fucked it up by trying to push it as a constructed staple (a complete failure in this case) and thereby diluted what should have been its appeal to Commander.

Ishkanah is fine, she's got a repeatable ETB effect to get on replays and a tribal win condition suited to late in the game. None of the entirely legit complaints about Ulrich apply, and tribal legends shouldn't be super-pushed for Commander anyway.
 
But Marvel is a synergy deck. There's always luck involved but Marvel is build around getting 6+ energy turn 4, while finding a marvel and having a high enough threat density to get a hit most of the time. It's actually quite the deck construction feat to pull off imo and requires striking a very thin balance.

Too bad Spell Queller completely rips it apart.
It gets even worse post board when you have to deal with Negate, hand disruption and Lost Legacy.


Also member when we dog piled a bit onto ironmang for sharing a UW midrange list but not taking critique?
 

Ashodin

Member
Marvel is that deck where you look at it once and go "this will never work"

then you watch an opponent rip an Emrakul on turn 4 and go holy shit
 

Hero

Member
I think someone mentioned it but apparently another print run of Eternal Masters is being released? Feels kind of weird to happen right now, right? I feel like 10 dollar boosters is asking too much. Feel like they need to be 6-7.
 

Yeef

Member
I think someone mentioned it but apparently another print run of Eternal Masters is being released? Feels kind of weird to happen right now, right? I feel like 10 dollar boosters is asking too much. Feel like they need to be 6-7.
The new print run is super-small and also only available through distributors (not Wizards Direct), so it's likely not going to affect the current pack prices. Most places will likely have them for around $15 or so.
 
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