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[keeblerdrow]

I doubt Mono-Black is a deck in Frontier because Return to Ravnica isn't legal and all of the stuff that made Mono-Black Devotion good was stuff in RTR.



It's a good, if not exciting in any way limited format.

As far as I can tell, they let certain cards through even though they should be red-flagged because they want them to appear in Constructed. There's no fucking way that Aetherworks Marvel should have gotten out of Development with a 6 energy cost, coming into play untapped and not requiring that you sacrifice Aetherworks Marvel to use it. It just gets compounded when there's cards you can cast with it that basically say "you win this game independent of anything that has happened or could happen" printed on it.

Also Theros isn't legal. None of mono black devotion is legal in Frontier.

I'd like to argue for a less arbitrary starting point. Theros seemed to be the starting point of a new creatures matter aesthetic in design. It would be a better place to start.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I mean, I guess he's proud of the fact he made an "artifacts matter" block without breaking all of constructed Magic?

Also Theros isn't legal. None of mono black devotion is legal in Frontier.

I'd like to argue for a less arbitrary starting point. Theros seemed to be the starting point of a new creatures matter aesthetic in design. It would be a better place to start.

Hah, I totally forgot that Theros wasn't legal. I guess because it was legal at the same general time as some of the M15 stuff.

But, yeah, everything about Frontier is arbitrary. The problem is that it exists to feed a desire to bring back Extended, but there isn't actually a market for Extended. The fact that Extended died on the vine suggests to me that Frontier is basically the same thing.

 

[Ashodin]

Aether Revolt HAS to have Energy draining cards. The mechanic is going along unchecked.

 

[kirblar]

I mean, I guess he's proud of the fact he made an "artifacts matter" block without breaking all of constructed Magic?

Did he?

Cause he certainly seems to have derailed Standard worse than it's been since JTMS.

Frontier is because of shitty Standard. If/when Standard bans happen you'll see interest plummet.

I think one thing they HAVE to do - Rotate Gideon early after AER.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Aether Revolt HAS to have Energy draining cards. The mechanic is going along unchecked.

I think Maro's position is that players should be able to interact with counters on players.

Did he?

Cause he certainly seems to have derailed Standard worse than it's been since JTMS.

Frontier is because of shitty Standard. If/when Standard bans happen you'll see interest plummet.

I think one thing they HAVE to do - Rotate Gideon early after AER.

Broken and "not any fun" aren't the same thing.

Gideon and Emrakul are both cards I think need to be at least considered for bans. Emrakul promotes un-fun gameplay, full-stop.

 

[Santiako]

If you have to ban one card it should be Emrakul for sure.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I mean, Emrakul needs to be No. 1 on the list, unless Relic of Progenitus is in Aether Revolt for some insane person reason.

Mindslaver isn't an effect that should be stapled to a 13/13 Trample, Evasion, Protection from removal and a cost reduction mechanic, particularly not when the ability to interact with the cost reduction mechanic doesn't exist.

 

[charlequin]

To counteract the earlier dicussion of current Standard, Ari Lax arguing that most of the current criticisms are wrong:

Not sure about the overall argument, but I'm at least inclined to agree that the four cards listed are different types of mistakes.

To be fair to MaRo/R&D, Kaladesh is probably one of the best designed sets recently. In terms of flavor and actual design, it's pretty good.

Yeah, Innistrad kind of tilts the scales here since beyond being designed excellently it's also incredibly well developed so it has an all-time-great draft format to go along with its popularity on other axes. Ravnica wasn't actually that amazing in draft and that wasn't a core part of its popularity originally.

I think the general response to Kaladesh is gonna stay pretty positive longer term. Amazing visual style, an open-ended mechanic people really like, and a ton of individual cards that people like and will be playing in various formats for ages.

But hey, the Giants won their win-and-in last week, so its possible they could just scoop to their division-mates Washington into the playoffs if the Packers and Lions decide to play it out.

See, this one they pretty much do, it's just called "playing your garbage time backup players." It's the only way my Buffalo Bills ever beat the Patriots!

 

[kirblar]

It's a 3/10 format because the games suck. It's not the metagame, it's that people don't want to play against a bunch of the cards- it's the same reason a lot of people are nope'ing out on HS.

Ari may have less of a problem with the games, but clearly, a lot of people do.

Yes, this format isn't shitty for the same reasons the other ones were shitty- this is a bad format because of a bunch of design paradigms taken to an illogical extreme.

BattleCruiser Magic hasn't worked well both times they've pushed it in both limited and constructed. Hopefully they take the lesson.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I don't think Lax's argument is fleshed out enough to be worth using it as a discussion point. He both implies format diversity is equivalent to fun, and unilaterally declares a bunch of decks fun.

I've played all of the decks he mentions and its very easy to see why people say they're not fun - they're full of threats that can't be reasonably answered.

 

[Santiako]

Remember "Kaladesh is the best set ever since Innistrad you guys".

Do you all still think this now?

Kaladesh limited is definitely one of the best in a long long time. It's extremely deep and every colour combination is viable. Sealed is a bit bomb oriented, but draft is amazing.

 

[kirblar]

I don't think Lax's argument is fleshed out enough to be worth using it as a discussion point. He both implies format diversity is equivalent to fun, and unilaterally declares a bunch of decks fun.

I've played all of the decks he mentions and its very easy to see why people say they're not fun - they're full of threats that can't be reasonably answered.

He's having fun. He's missing the forest.

 

[OnPoint]

Bout halfway into my box I got from my friends, the same one with the foil Verdurous Gearhulk and something kind of funny happened. I opened a normal one and a masterpiece one. So that's three Verdurous Gearhulks, one of each type, in about 20 packs. Weird!

 

[Angry Grimace]

All I'm saying is that I don't know that bans are the solution to the problem here. The problem is a design philosophy that skews towards battlecruiser style cards that can't be answered in any reasonable way.

That's not to say haymakers are bad: Ulamog is a Battlecruiser style card that isn't all that unfair on its own, particularly given how BFZ block tried to entice you to use it.

 

[Ashodin]

Kaladesh limited is definitely one of the best in a long long time. It's extremely deep and every colour combination is viable. Sealed is a bit bomb oriented, but draft is amazing.

Limited is NOT what most people play tho

Standard is the premier format bar none. It's what people look to for what Magic "is".

Drafting is a niche game mode. I personally loved Sealed, but it's super bomb-y. If you don't get the bombs you're gonna have a bad time.

 

[kirblar]

Limited is NOT what most people play tho

Standard is the premier format bar none. It's what people look to for what Magic "is".

Drafting is a niche game mode. I personally loved Sealed, but it's super bomb-y. If you don't get the bombs you're gonna have a bad time.

Limited is a format that exists to sell packs.

 

[Ashodin]

Limited is a format that exists to sell packs.

Basically. Use the packs to play the game that way.

A lot of casual players just grab packs just to crack 'em though.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Cracking packs is fun though.

 

[blindrocket]

I got that three-pack of Conspiracy 2 today as a Christmas present. Cracked those packs and pulled a Show and Tell!

 

[Firemind]

I mean, if Siege Rhino wasn't a broken piece of mess I don't know what is. At least Collected Company isn't broken in a vacuum.

 

[Etrian Oddity]

I mean, if Siege Rhino wasn't a broken piece of mess I don't know what is. At least Collected Company isn't broken in a vacuum.

The Rhino was so fkn fun, though. That thing coming down completely turned the course of a game.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I mean, you also can just point removal at Rhino and it dies and that's it.

 

[Firemind]

Tarmogoyf is just a squire on turn two. Seems balanced.

 

[Santiako]

Limited is NOT what most people play tho

Standard is the premier format bar none. It's what people look to for what Magic "is".

Drafting is a niche game mode. I personally loved Sealed, but it's super bomb-y. If you don't get the bombs you're gonna have a bad time.

It is what they design the entire set around though. Also, I don't know anyone who doesn't play limited, EDH only players play limited, Standard only players play limited, etc

 

[Wulfric]

Speaking of limited, Aether Revolt pre-release is in a little over two weeks. What ideal card are you waiting for?

I'm waiting for a Terminate reprint (lol) or a new affinity artifact (lmao).

*sigh*

 

[Etrian Oddity]

Speaking of limited, Aether Revolt pre-release is in a little over two weeks. What ideal card are you waiting for?

I'm waiting for a Terminate reprint (lol) or a new affinity artifact (lmao).

*sigh*

A Green/Blue method of transforming your Energy into mana.

Shrapnel Blast.

A Green/Black method of gaining Energy by sacrificing creatures.

 

[Joe Molotov]

I mean, you also can just point removal at Rhino and it dies and that's it.

Removal is too powerful for Standard, tho.

 

[Toxi]

BattleCruiser Magic hasn't worked well both times they've pushed it in both limited and constructed. Hopefully they take the lesson.

Wait, what? RoE limited is great.

 

[kirblar]

Wait, what? RoE limited is great.

It is, it just didn't go down well w/ casuals.

 

[Angry Grimace]

All I'm saying is that we've entered a Standard where Thoughtseize would improve the environment.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I'd kill for this

or this

I'd love this

 

[OnPoint]

All I'm saying is that we've entered a Standard where Thoughtseize would improve the environment.

That's saying something, and I feel like it's a point that will be lost on many.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Man there's more than a dozen middling graveyard hate cards Wotc could have reprinted. They aren't even good gy hate just good enough so they could intefere with the opponents plan.

 

[Santiako]

I'd kill for this


or this

I'd love this

It's an artifact set, so this would fit really well

 

[Infinite Stars]

All I'm saying is that we've entered a Standard where Thoughtseize would improve the environment.

You want to give BG Delirium Thoughtsieze? Be my guest.

I do get the underlying point though.

 

[Etrian Oddity]

I'd kill for this


or this

I'd love this

I'd really love to go back to Ravnica too.

Ashodin goddammit have you figured out a Kiora deck yet?

 

[ThLunarian]

Limited is a format that exists to sell packs.

Standard sells way more packs than limited does.

Have you ever thought about how many packs need to be opened inorder to get all the cards in a typical Standard deck?

Limited exists because it's a popular format but it's not the primary driver of pack sales

 

[bigkrev]

Standard sells way more packs than limited does.

Have you ever thought about how many packs need to be opened inorder to get all the cards in a typical Standard deck?

Limited exists because it's a popular format but it's not the primary driver of pack sales

If you wanted to make a standard deck you would have to open something like 2000 packs on average?

 

[kirblar]

Standard sells way more packs than limited does.

Have you ever thought about how many packs need to be opened inorder to get all the cards in a typical Standard deck?

Limited exists because it's a popular format but it's not the primary driver of pack sales

No, it's not, but that's what it's there for. It's the "budget" way to get into playing the game seriously.

 

[charlequin]

It's a 3/10 format because the games suck. It's not the metagame, it's that people don't want to play against a bunch of the cards- it's the same reason a lot of people are nope'ing out on HS.

See this doesn't really strengthen the argument for me because the current meta whining about Hearthstone is completely ridiculous. People are looking at a meta with 4-5 fairly distinct decks all competitively playable, including at least one solid budget deck, and some decent options for teching against one another, but being diaper babies about a few individual strong cards or the inability to play their arbitrary pet deck.

I mean, if Siege Rhino wasn't a broken piece of mess I don't know what is.

Even Thragtusk is worse since it's got a death trigger. Rhino is a big haymaker but one that isn't difficult in any serious way to answer.

Drafting is a niche game mode.

Yeah, I don't think this is accurate. Drafting is the format that exists so people can have a zero-prep, fixed-buy-in mode of play; you don't have draft and you lose a huge amount of stickiness as people who don't have a deck ready or aren't willing to drop hundreds immediately on a new set release don't have a good way to participate.

 

[kirblar]

Yup. Rhino is silly, but it's a silly that's easy to kill.

A lot of HS metagames just aren't fun, even when they're healthy. The gameplay ends up just sucking.

 

[OnPoint]

Even Thragtusk is worse since it's got a death trigger. Rhino is a big haymaker but one that isn't difficult in any serious way to answer.

I feel like the 4/5 of Rhino was always just part two of what was already a really bomby mechanic, since it's a 6 point life swing. The 4/5 was never the issue, really. It's the constant stapling spells to creatures that is. Gotta love a 4/5 trampler that's causally 1/2 a Lightning Helix. Also, wasn't there something else about that standard that made him miserable to play against? It's fuzzy now, but what did a typical Siege Rhino deck look like?

 

[keeblerdrow]

I feel like the 4/5 of Rhino was always just part two of what was already a really bomby mechanic, since it's a 6 point life swing. The 4/5 was never the issue, really. It's the constant stapling spells to creatures that is. Gotta love a 4/5 trampler that's causally 1/2 a Lightning Helix. Also, wasn't there something else about that standard that made him miserable to play against? It's fuzzy now, but what did a typical Siege Rhino deck look like?

At different points, Fleecemane Lion, Courser of Kruphix, Anafenza, Murderous Cut, Elvish Mystic, Abzan Charm, flipNissa, Tasigur, Elspeth, Thoughtsieze, Hero's Downfall, and Wingmate Roc. It had a LOT of really, really good support.

 

[kirblar]

I feel like the 4/5 of Rhino was always just part two of what was already a really bomby mechanic, since it's a 6 point life swing. The 4/5 was never the issue, really. It's the constant stapling spells to creatures that is. Gotta love a 4/5 trampler that's causally 1/2 a Lightning Helix. Also, wasn't there something else about that standard that made him miserable to play against? It's fuzzy now, but what did a typical Siege Rhino deck look like?

A lot of different decks. It was stupid good and went into tons of strats.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

See this doesn't really strengthen the argument for me because the current meta whining about Hearthstone is completely ridiculous. People are looking at a meta with 4-5 fairly distinct decks all competitively playable, including at least one solid budget deck, and some decent options for teching against one another, but being diaper babies about a few individual strong cards or the inability to play their arbitrary pet deck.

The issue in HS is that most of the top of the meta decks are running the same card and the caveat necessary to run it, which was obviously broken to most everyone.
There's 1 deck considered top tier that doesn't run it. 2 classes are absolutely in the shitters right now since the only support they got from the new set is a garbage mechanic that straight loses to everything else they added to the game. That's more than if an entire colour in Magic was unplayable. The meta has shifted to be fairly aggressive and an equal amount more uninteractive in the process. Even the combo deck has become a deck that can kill you on turn 5 w/o ever going off.

Decks are about as non distinct as they can get in a game that revolves around having 9 sections of exclusive cards.
It's an improvement to Karazhan and that's about it.

 

[Hero]

Thragtusk with Resto was a shitty time.

 

[Yeef]

I'd kill for this

I mean, Not Forgotten exists already. Even though Beckon is cheaper and Instant, I don't think it'd be strong enough to be sufficient graveyard hate in this format.

Even Thragtusk is worse since it's got a death trigger. Rhino is a big haymaker but one that isn't difficult in any serious way to answer.

My biggest problem with Rhino (and Mantis Rider for that matter) is that they seem to invariably come in 2's and 3s. I swear, you can both be in top deck mode and if you or your opponent top decks a Rhino, the next two draws that player has will also be rhinos.

 

[kirblar]

Thragtusk with Resto was a shitty time.

It got better as stuff entered to deal with it and ended up a good format overall. Elixir of Immortality was the real problem.

 

[Hero]

It got better as stuff entered to deal with it and ended up a good format overall. Elixir of Immortality was the real problem.

Yeah I just remember there was a period where our standard events had their rounds going to time consistently because of multiple players with Resto + Thragtusk and it becoming a very grindy game.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Elixir of Immortality Masterpiece plz