Support NeoGAF

[syllogism]

Which also doesn't make sense. And I also wrote that rebels capture one (or getting on from Russia) simply would not work out, because of the training, that's required to operate one.

Instead of doing these drive-bys, and then disappearing without addressing replies, how about presenting your own theory on what is most plausible. You are definitely suggesting that the Ukrainian military shot down the plane on purpose. There is just no other good faith interpretation of what you have been peddling.

 

[Carcetti]

Yes, that's what I wrote in my post.
I also wrote about the possibility that Russia secretly sent one in with a team of experts. Which also doesn't make sense. And I also wrote that rebels capturing one (or getting on from Russia) simply would not work out, because of the training, that's required to operate one. It's not Call Of Duty equipment that just works.

Did you miss the Pentagon briefing some time back where they said that satellite imagery showed Buk training activity (Russians training the insurgents) and actual vehicular SAMs near the Ukraine/Russia border? You know, the one before this incident?

 

[filopilo]

Yes, that's what I wrote in my post.
I also wrote about the possibility that Russia secretly sent one in with a team of experts. Which also doesn't make sense. And I also wrote that rebels capturing one (or getting on from Russia) simply would not work out, because of the training, that's required to operate one. It's not Call Of Duty equipment that just works.

Even if they Have the material ,it doesn't mean they used it for the malaysian plane,and it's certainly a long shot being a proof.But of the faith is so strong ,why prove it ?...

 

[filopilo]

Did you miss the Pentagon briefing some time back where they said that satellite imagery showed Buk training activity and actual vehicular SAMs near the Ukraine/Russia border? You know, the one before this incident?

aww , you're quoting the pentagon ? what about the pictures ?

 

[Veritigo_X]

Yes, that's what I wrote in my post.
I also wrote about the possibility that Russia secretly sent one in with a team of experts. Which also doesn't make sense. And I also wrote that rebels capture one (or getting on from Russia) simply would not work out, because of the training, that's required to operate one.

So what does make sense to you?

According to you:
Rebels couldn't shoot it down because they lack the training.
Russian trained rebels couldn't shoot it down because they have too much training.

I'm interested to know your theory behind this since I'm sure you have one.

 

[Maninthemirror]

wrong thread

 

[FreedomFighter]

So what is this I hear about Russia releasing satellite imagery and the US refusing to? I missed the Russian Ministry of Defense briefing and I'm hearing US refuses to show whatever evidence it has.

 

[antonz]

3 BUK Missile Systems were tracked fleeing Separatist regions back across to Russia.

 

[Carcetti]

aww , you're quoting the pentagon ? what about the pictures ?

You're asking for pictures in the age of photoshop? Also, who would I quote? The Russians would release their own images and incriminate themselves?

Let me just quote myself.

Also, who would have satellites capable of taking said images without certain people going 'Oh, we can't trust the USA here'?

Yes, you've created a situation similar to religion, where you will require proof no one on the planet can supply. Say hallelujah.

Also, they talked of the vehicles before this incident as a sidenote in a routine briefing before the plane was shot down. Are you implying they were building some sort of a conspiracy?

 

[Chariot]

Netherlands delivered much emotion.
Regarding last moments of people on plane; "did they hold the hand of a loved one when they realized the plane was going down? Say 'I love you' for the last time? [paraphrased]"

The video will likely be up in a couple hours if you want to re-watch later.

hat's really sad. I will tomorrow look for a video, until then something should be online.

To be totally honest most of Europe have been pissed at Russia for sometime over Ukraine but a few nations have blocked any real action. Those Nations have a lot to answer for but will never be called out on it.

The treatment of the remains etc has just boiled it to a point that even the obstructers have no choice

Good. Maybe we now can end the separiste war and make reinforced efforts to end what happens in Palestine. And of course ending it for the sake of the ukrainians, too.

 

[Magni]

There are multiple ways to shoot down aircraft, you know? And there are different limits to those.

Like what? Prove you're not totally full of shit by explaining how the rebels successfully shot down a troop carrier at 21,000 ft with something that doesn't "need plenty of well-trained people to operate".

For reference, 21,000 ft is roughly 6,400m.

 

[syllogism]

"most likely" is no evidence. We need a missile fragment or photos from a spy satellite.

These analysts aren't just guessing. There are photographs of the shrapnel damage and they point to a SA-11 hit

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/1d6a9ac2-10e3-11e4-b116-00144feabdc0.html#axzz388dx5mNf

It's not conclusive, but it is certainly evidence.

 

[elyetis]

Wow, I would like to become canadian after that speach in the Security Council.

 

[kess]

Guy from Vietnam has cool glasses

 

[FreedomFighter]

Did you miss the Pentagon briefing some time back where they said that satellite imagery showed Buk training activity (Russians training the insurgents) and actual vehicular SAMs near the Ukraine/Russia border? You know, the one before this incident?

I don't get this. Like, at all. I get a lot shit in this thread (and the Syria thread before it for actually liking RT) but I wish you guys would be as discerning, critical, and skeptical when it comes from not just Western media, but the Pentagon and State Dept.

I don't know how you guys can so faithfully believe what they tell you after so many instances of them lying and deceiving. I am utterly confused.

 

[gutter_trash]

some people have played too much Grand Theft Auto or Battlefield if they think they can take out of passenger jet with a rocket launcher from that altitude

 

[Carcetti]

I don't get this. Like, at all. I get a lot shit in this thread (and the Syria thread before it for actually liking RT) but I wish you guys would be as discerning, critical, and skeptical when it comes from not just Western media, but the Pentagon and State Dept.

I don't know how you guys can so faithfully believe what they tell you after so many instances of them lying and deceiving. I am utterly confused.

Of course they're lying and using disinfo a lot of the time. I'd trust Pentagon about as far as I can throw that building. However, they didn't say this after the fact. Nobody cared about the info the time it was released because it wasn't relevant, just par the course. It became relevant when someone shot down an airliner.

 

[Veritigo_X]

I don't get this. Like, at all. I get a lot shit in this thread (and the Syria thread before it for actually liking RT) but I wish you guys would be as discerning, critical, and skeptical when it comes from not just Western media, but the Pentagon and State Dept.

I don't know how you guys can so faithfully believe what they tell you after so many instances of them lying and deceiving. I am utterly confused.

The Pentagon briefing was some time ago, before MH17 was shot down. Are you suggesting that the Pentagon fabricated this info in case something like this were to happen so they could push the blame onto Russia? That's some crazy foresight.

 

[Magni]

Of course they're lying and using disinfo a lot of the time. I'd trust Pentagon about as far as I can throw that building. However, they didn't say this after the fact. Nobody cared about the info the time it was released because it wasn't relevant, just par the course. It became relevant when someone shot down an airliner.

You don't understand, they're playing the long game. Wake up sheeple.

 

[jimi_dini]

Even if they Have the material ,it doesn't mean they used it for the malaysian plane,and it's certainly a long shot being a proof.But of the faith is so strong ,why prove it ?...

Again - just for you - you can't simply press a button and something will get shot down. It's not Call Of Duty. Is that so difficult to understand? I know, it looks so easy in CoD, but that's not real-life.

You don't have to believe me about this topic. But hopefully you will believe this retired US Maj. General.

http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-ukraine-malaysia-jet-training-20140719-story.html

"This is a hard system to use, in today’s terms," said retired Army Lt. Gen. Patrick J. O’Reilly, a former director of the U.S. Missile Defense Agency, who estimated that each of the SA-11 crew members would have needed at least six months of training.

"You don’t just take some folks off the street, and 30 days later they’re trained," he said.

...

Given the Malaysian jetliner’s altitude and cruising speed, O’Reilly said, the SA-11 probably was fired within 25 miles of the crash site.

"It’s such an old technology, it could very conceivably be they thought they were shooting down a military cargo plane or a large tanker. It is not unlikely they really thought that they were shooting down a military aircraft."

"So that there’s some deniability. Both the Ukrainians have it and the Russian army has it."

But don't let facts go against your hatred of the Ukrainian rebels.

Instead of doing these drive-bys

I don't think that I'm the one doing drive-bys.

Like what? Prove you're not totally full of shit by explaining how the rebels successfully shot down a troop carrier at 21,000 ft

30.000 ft was considered save by the Ukranian government even after the rebels shot down that carrier - otherwise the commercial aircraft would not have been allowed there. Is that so hard to understand?

 

[Earendil]

Yes, that's what I wrote in my post.
I also wrote about the possibility that Russia secretly sent one in with a team of experts. Which also doesn't make sense. And I also wrote that rebels capturing one (or getting on from Russia) simply would not work out, because of the training, that's required to operate one. It's not Call Of Duty equipment that just works.

So, if this is true, what caused the plan to crash?

 

[FreedomFighter]

3 BUK Missile Systems were tracked fleeing Separatist regions back across to Russia.

But they won't release the sat imagery. Three BUK Missile Systems would be pretty easy to track - those things are huge. I want to see proof of this.

This article in the Washington Post is just "officials say" journalism. Or "stenographer journalism", as Glenn Greenwald likes to call it. An anonymous official says:

“We do believe they were trying to move back into Russia at least three Buk [missile launch] systems,” the official said. U.S. intelligence was “starting to get indications . . . a little more than a week ago” that the Russian launchers had been moved into Ukraine, said the official.

I don't know dude. Doesn't sound like they really have any evidence at all. Just speculation and hopes.

I don't think the US is going to produce any damning evidence at all. The strategy seems to be just beat "Russia did it" into everyone's head until people believe it instead of providing anything substantive.

 

[antonz]

There have been numerous videos uploaded of the BUK systems. There is photography from Torez Ukraine itself with a BUK inside the city the night before the attack

 

[Magni]

30.000 ft was considered save by the Ukranian government even after the rebels shot down that carrier - otherwise the commercial aircraft would not have been allowed there. Is that so hard to understand?

What the fuck does that have to do with anything? You're still not answering my question by the way. Are you admitting that you're full of shit?

 

[FreedomFighter]

The Pentagon briefing was some time ago, before MH17 was shot down. Are you suggesting that the Pentagon fabricated this info in case something like this were to happen so they could push the blame onto Russia? That's some crazy foresight.

I think you missed the point, Veritigo.

Of course they're lying and using disinfo a lot of the time. I'd trust Pentagon about as far as I can throw that building. However, they didn't say this after the fact. Nobody cared about the info the time it was released because it wasn't relevant, just par the course. It became relevant when someone shot down an airliner.

Fair enough. I just thought after reading your one response to jimi_dini that what I said might've been your position. I made an assumption, my bad.

 

[SkeptiMism]

I also wrote about the possibility that Russia secretly sent one in with a team of experts. Which also doesn't make sense..

Assuming it's true that the separatists got the BUK system from Russia and the training for it, they still wouldn't have perfect training for the system. They could have been taught to use it decently, but maybe still lack some knowledge and even just forget things due to not being used to it.

And multiple reports have said the separatists have been drunk at least on the crash site. It's possible that the ones who took the shot were drunk too.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

But they won't release the sat imagery. Three BUK Missile Systems would be pretty easy to track - those things are huge. I want to see proof of this.

This article in the Washington Post is just "officials say" journalism. Or "stenographer journalism", as Glenn Greenwald likes to call it. An anonymous official says:



I don't know dude. Doesn't sound like they really have any evidence at all. Just speculation and hopes.

I don't think the US is going to produce any damning evidence at all. The strategy seems to be just beat "Russia did it" into everyone's head until people believe it instead of providing anything substantive.

There's plenty of amateur video and photographs of vehicles in that region. How about the damning audio tapes, oh wait that's right you'll just call it fake. You demand something then when you see it you just deny it's real. I don't know why I'm bothering to respond to your posts. It's just denial and selective bias.

 

[kess]

But don't let facts go against your hatred of the Ukrainian rebels.

Assuming they may have thought they shot down a military plane, that doesn't absolve their total disregard for securing the site, allowing wholesale looting to occur, and after letting the corpses rot for three days, removing them from the site and stacking them in a train car.

Do you not hate that?

 

[syllogism]

Pentagon isn't even the only pre-crash source for the separatists having access to a BUK, granted Sergei Kurginyan isn't a very reliable source

http://pressimus.com/Interpreter_Mag/press/3463

 

[Dr.Acula]

There's plenty of amateur video and photographs of vehicles in that region. How about the damning audio tapes, oh wait that's right you'll just call it fake. You demand something then when you see it you just deny it's real. I don't know why I'm bothering to respond to your posts. It's just denial and selective bias.

Igor Bezler has confirmed to Lenta.ru that the communications interception where he speaks about downing the plane is authentic, however claims that he was talking about a different aircraft.

Uh-huh.

Even the rebels admit the tapes are legit, lol

 

[Partial Gamification]

This was one of the deleted posts:

“In the Torez region, they have destroyed an AN-26 transport plane. Its wreckage landed near the ‘Progress’ mine. This will teach them: Do not fly in ‘our skies.’ And here is the video confirming the ‘crash of the bird.’ The bird fell on open fields. It did not damage inhabited sectors. Peaceful people did not suffer. And there is information about a second destroyed plane; looks like an SU.” (With widespread wreckage perhaps those on the scene thought they had shot two for one?).

Shortly thereafter, the Strelkov website issued an announcement with capitalized letters:

ATTENTION. This announcement declared that the news of the downing of the AN-26 was not official but came from residents and militia members on the scene. The only official announcements are published under the banner: Strelkov INFORMS. In other words, Strelkov asks his readers to forget the earlier announcement of the successful downing of a fascist Ukrainian plane.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulrod...ussian-separatists-shot-down-malaysian-plane/

Russian propaganda will, of course, sputter in indignation that these recordings are fabricated, but they are, in my considered opinion, authentic. I reproduce them in full. Readers can form their own opinion.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulrod...eded-for-mh17-the-worlds-first-sam-terrorism/

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

Pentagon isn't even the only pre-crash source for the separatists having access to a BUK, granted Sergei Kurginyan isn't a very reliable source

http://pressimus.com/Interpreter_Mag/press/3463

They've shot down planes and helicopters before this and admitted to as much. I can't even believe this is a point of contention. They go all over social media showing off this stuff and then when something goes wrong they try to say oh wait we were just kidding.

 

[Nivash]

Yes, that's what I wrote in my post.
I also wrote about the possibility that Russia secretly sent one in with a team of experts. Which also doesn't make sense. And I also wrote that rebels capturing one (or getting on from Russia) simply would not work out, because of the training, that's required to operate one. It's not Call Of Duty equipment that just works.

While there are several possible scenarios, in the end they differ greatly in plausibility:

- The separatists shot it down because they, lacking the benefit of an air defence network, mistook it for a Ukrainian military aircraft.

- The separatists shot it down knowing it was an airliner because reasons.

- Russia shot it down with their own weapons from behind the Russian border thinking it was a Ukrainian military aircraft because they suck at operating an air defence network (pro tip: they don't)

- Russia shot it down knowingly because reasons.

- Ukraine shot it down because reasons (unless they are complete morons there's no chance they mistook it for something else considering it flew from west to east).

- The US shot it down because they are eeeviiil.

See where am I going with this? Occams Razor: the separatists did it by mistake. It takes the least amounts of assumptions and fits the evidence.

So how did they do it? BUK makes the most sense. Has the range, fits the profile. Where did they get it? Now we're getting into speculation territory but my money is on looted from some half-forgotten Ukrainian depot. So far we still don't have any hard evidence of Russia supplying the seps directly (they like their plausible deniability) but I'm not ruling out that they felt they could deny slipping the seps a BUK. Finally my money is also on it being the TELAR equipped version because you can fire that one without a radar vehicle and it's also the same type as the BUK of which pictures have been spread across social media.

So who operated it? My money is on seps, either self-taught or who Russian instructors had given a crash course and let loose. The reason is that an experienced operator would have deduced that it was an airliner based on its altitude and speed. Trigger-happy sep? Not so much.

Oh, and teaching yourself to operate a Soviet era SAM system - while not exactly easy - can be done. Case in point.

That's my view of things. As a bonus, it also explains perfectly why the seps are running around like headless chickens and why Russia suddenly took a hands-off approach to the seps and are trying to distance themselves rather than cover things up.

 

[ErnieMcCracken]

Again - just for you - you can't simply press a button and something will get shot down. It's not Call Of Duty. Is that so difficult to understand? I know, it looks so easy in CoD, but that's not real-life.

You don't have to believe me about this topic. But hopefully you will believe this retired US Maj. General.

http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-ukraine-malaysia-jet-training-20140719-story.html

"It’s such an old technology, it could very conceivably be they thought they were shooting down a military cargo plane or a large tanker. It is not unlikely they really thought that they were shooting down a military aircraft."

But don't let facts go against your hatred of the Ukrainian rebels.

I don't think that I'm the one doing drive-bys.

30.000 ft was considered save by the Ukranian government even after the rebels shot down that carrier - otherwise the commercial aircraft would not have been allowed there. Is that so hard to understand?

Doesn't this run counter to your argument that those operating these are so well trained that they wouldn't make such an error? Also, doesn't this imply that the separatists did it since the separatists have no aircraft for the Ukranians to fire on? And if the separatists didn't do it, why are they denying access to the site for investigation? If they have nothing to hide...

 

[ape2man]

Assuming it's true that the separatists got the BUK system from Russia and the training for it, they still wouldn't have perfect training for the system. They could have been taught to use it decently, but maybe still lack some knowledge and even just forget things due to not being used to it.

And multiple reports have said the separatists have been drunk at least on the crash site. It's possible that the ones who took the shot were drunk too.

What are you implying? They where drunk so it was not there fault? The diddent have enough training so it was not there fault?

What are you implying?

 

[gutter_trash]

This was one of the deleted posts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU5NSSzYygk

 

[Nivash]

Just one quick comment on the training. Yes, the BUK is complicated. Yes, normally you would train a conscript crew for months. But you do that to avoid them doing what the seps did!

Simply pointing the BUK in the direction of the massive radar signature lumbering towards you is not that hard. You can do that by reading the manual intently.

The training is going to focus on the difficult things of operating a BUK: separating friend from foe in a chaotic battlescape. Knowing how to target difficult targets: fast targets, small targets, targets flying low or at an angle, targets doing evasive maneuvers, targets using countermeasures, targets using ECM. Knowing how to cooperate in an air defence network. Knowing when the enemy is targeting you with SEAD and what to do. Knowing how to redeploy, resupply, perform emergency maintenance. That sort of thing. Stuff the seps never have to do.

The seps operate APC's, tanks, crew-operated weapons, artillery, MLRS and appear to have a good grasp of basic tactics and strategy. Things that also take months of training. Why would they suddenly be unable to figure out how shoot down the easiest target in the world with a BUK?

 

[jimi_dini]

What the fuck does that have to do with anything?
You're still not answering my question by the way. Are you admitting that you're full of shit?

First of all - your tone is getting on my nerves. Do you talk to people like that regulary?

Again - there are multiple ways to shoot down aircraft and just because you know how to operate one of those ways doesn't mean that you know how to operate all of them.

Anyway, for that troop transport - and I quote - either "stinger-like" missiles were used or a "large-calibre machine gun" according to Ukraine government.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27849435

Which means no BUK. If they had any hint about a BUK, they wouldn't (or maybe shouldn't) have allowed any airplane to fly over that area at 30.000 feet. It's as simple as that.

Simply pointing the BUK in the direction of the massive radar signature lumbering towards you is not that hard. You can do that by reading the manual intently.

If only that General would have known that you just have to read the manual...

 

[Chittagong]

Pentagon isn't even the only pre-crash source for the separatists having access to a BUK, granted Sergei Kurginyan isn't a very reliable source

http://pressimus.com/Interpreter_Mag/press/3463

Oops!

 

[Liha]

Yes, but the crash site has been compromised by an unknown number of people, it's being guarded by the people who are suspected of doing the deed, there are people who'd benefit from finding fragments and not finding fragments both who could try and plant or remove evidence. Also, who would have satellites capable of taking said images without certain people going 'Oh, we can't trust the USA here'?

I'm just anticipating the next round of denial already, as it's impossible to find binding proof in this. Putin will always have deniability, sad as it is.

You're absolutely right and that's a big problem. It's also very difficult to find the scattered fragments in a combat zone.

These analysts aren't just guessing. There are photographs of the shrapnel damage and they point to a SA-11 hit

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/1d6a9ac2-10e3-11e4-b116-00144feabdc0.html#axzz388dx5mNf

It's not conclusive, but it is certainly evidence.

Are these analysts members of the official commission? The most of these internet analysts are far away from the accident and that's untrustworthy.

 

[DarkFlow]

First of all - your tone is getting on my nerves. Do you talk to people like that regulary?

Lol really? I'm sure most of the thread could say the same to you.

 

[ErnieMcCracken]

First of all - your tone is getting on my nerves. Do you talk to people like that regulary?

Again - there are multiple ways to shoot down aircraft and just because you know how to operate one of those ways doesn't mean that you know how to operate all of them.

Anyway, for that troop transport - and I quote - either "stinger-like" missiles were used or a "large-calibre machine gun" according to Ukraine government.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27849435

Which means no BUK. If they had any hint about a BUK, they wouldn't (or maybe shouldn't) have allowed any airplane to fly over that area at 30.000 feet. It's as simple as that.



If only that General would have known that you just have to read the manual...

So who do you believe did and what did they use? (Feel like I'm playing Clue here...)

 

[Nivash]

First of all - your tone is getting on my nerves. Do you talk to people like that regulary?

Again - there are multiple ways to shoot down aircraft and just because you know how to operate one of those ways doesn't mean that you know how to operate all of them.

Anyway, for that troop transport - and I quote - either "stinger-like" missiles were used or a "large-calibre machine gun" according to Ukraine government.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27849435

Which means no BUK. If they had any hint about a BUK, they wouldn't (or maybe shouldn't) have allowed any airplane to fly over that area at 30.000 feet. It's as simple as that.

If only that General would have known that you just have to read the manual...

Wrong aircraft. The Ukrainian Air Force lost an An-26 flying beyond MANPAD range a week ago.

http://m.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28299334

As you can see from that article they specifically pointed out this fact and accused Russia of downing it. You haven't been paying attention. As for why they didn't close the airspace, who knows. It seems they thought that since Russia fired the missile themselves there was no need for concern for civilian aircraft. Either that or they failed to inform the civilian agency responsible for air corridors of the threat.

Suffice to say mistakes were made.

EDIT: Here's another interesting factor I just realised: the Ukrainian army is conscripted. It's not at all impossible that someone in the sep camp actually had training in operating a BUK... by the Ukrainian Army.

The point is, I stand by the belief that you don't need expert Russian soldiers to shoot down an airliner with a BUK.

 

[Earendil]

First of all - your tone is getting on my nerves. Do you talk to people like that regulary?

Again - there are multiple ways to shoot down aircraft and just because you know how to operate one of those ways doesn't mean that you know how to operate all of them.

Anyway, for that troop transport - and I quote - either "stinger-like" missiles were used or a "large-calibre machine gun" according to Ukraine government.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27849435

Which means no BUK. If they had any hint about a BUK, they wouldn't (or maybe shouldn't) have allowed any airplane to fly over that area at 30.000 feet. It's as simple as that.



If only that General would have known that you just have to read the manual...

If the separatists didn't shoot down the plane, then who did?

 

[jimi_dini]

Doesn't this run counter to your argument that those operating these are so well trained that they wouldn't make such an error?

I would assume that if Russia actually did such a conspiracy operation, they would not send their B-class team to do it.

But sure, why not. I already wrote that - with the new information from Russia - this may be at least somewhat possible - they wanted to shoot down the Ukraine aircraft and hit the civilian airplane instead. This information is new, Ukraine said that there was NONE of their military aircrafts in the air. Which means they were lying and I have to wonder why they would lie in such a case. Also - that Ukrainian aircraft would have seen what happened. Which means it makes even less sense for them to lie.

In any case, the rebels fit the least.

Also, doesn't this imply that the separatists did it since the separatists have no aircraft for the Ukranians to fire on?

Or maybe a few Ukraine soldiers thought that it's a Russian aircraft and thought that Russia would be invading Ukraine by air?

And if the separatists didn't do it, why are they denying access to the site for investigation?

They are?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohxJuyfdsXo

around 7:30

"whenever we said we wanted to go to the site ... they let us ..."
...
"they've done some work in terms of perimeter security for us ...
because there are a lot of turmoils here ..."

If the separatists didn't shoot down the plane, then who did?

It's not even a given that it was actually shot down by a BUK.

 

[antonz]

Malaysian Investigators have been meeting with Rebels for almost 3 hours now and word is still no black box transfer.

@v_solohub · 24m
2.5 hrs into talks between Malaysian experts and #Separatists but no confirmation that #MH17 black boxes were handed over #MalaysiaAirlines

@ChristopherJM · 22m
It's been a long day for journalists chasing the #MH17 black box. After midnight now.

@ChristopherJM · 1h
Asked if #MH17 black box would be handed over tonight, Malaysia delegation tells me, "we have no idea."

 

[Partial Gamification]

[...]

You don't have to believe me about this topic. But hopefully you will believe this retired US Maj. General.
[...]

[...]

If only that General would have known that you just have to read the manual...

A general now? This is a simple typo or are you trying to give this person more clout?

 

[jimi_dini]

A general now? This is a simple typo or are you trying to give this person more clout?

Oh you are so funny. Attacking my English.

English is simply not my first language.

 

[reckless]

Or maybe a few Ukraine soldiers thought that it's a Russian aircraft and thought that Russia would be invading Ukraine by air?

The Russian aircraft going West to East, in a heavily trafficked commercial airplane corridor and they somehow shot from a Separatist controlled area.
Or yeah and just ignore the separatists boasting about shooting down a plane and them restricting access to the area, moving anti air away from the area and taking wreckage away from the site.

But yeah it was totally the Ukrainian military.

 

[ab.aeterno]

While there are several possible scenarios, in the end they differ greatly in plausibility:

While this is a good post, it seems like a waste to have written, as the person to whom you were responding clearly will not respond.