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[Chittagong]

Ukraine military has lots of BUKs in that area. So of course one of those could have shot it down as well. Ruling that out just because some people ITT love that new Ukrainian government simply makes no sense, especially because there is no evidence for any theories at all.

Saying that the Ukrainian government would have shot the plane down would imply that it was on purpose and I never said so and I also don't think so.

I never said once in this thread that I'm assuming that the people responsible did it on purpose. Whoever did it, did not want to shoot down a civilian aircraft.

I'm keen to understand what you feel is possible, so let's simplify assumptions.

Let's put aside the alleged sightings of BUKs coming in and out of separatist areas, and disregard the recorded phone conversation for now, and put no weight on the posted and deleted social media posts from the separtists about shooting down a plane. Forget them for now. Let's also dismiss for now the American satellite detection of the missile coming from deep within the separatist area. Since all these points can be debated, let's leave them aside for now and focus on three indisputables

1 - Location of the crash
2 - Flight altitude of the plane - 10km
3 - Range of missiles capable of downing the plane in the region (BUKs) - 3-20km 3-42km

If we simply look at where the plane exploded, and then draw a circle around it as large as the radius of the missile used to downed it minus the plane's flight altitude (42km-10km=32km), I think we find is that we are still bound to be within the separatist area (or Russia).

Would you think it's plausible that Ukrainan government troops fired the missile from deep within the separatist area?

To give a scale to the map for those who don't know much of Ukraine geography, including myself, the distance from Donetsk to Mariupol is 231km for example:

http://distance4.com/distance/Donetsk/Mariupol/

 

[ErnieMcCracken]

Wait, I thought the black boxes were in possession of the rebels, not the Ukrainian government.

That was with regards to their BUK systems and where they were at the time and if they had been fired.

 

[mAcOdIn]

The Ukrainian Military hasn't fired a single anti-aircraft shot throughout the entire conflict, why the hell would they set up major anti-aircraft defences when their opposition has no aircraft?

Well, I'm sure any country with AA defenses has some set up, I doubt all of them are just sitting in storage.

That said, it's really, really, really unlikely the the Ukranian side watched the aircraft fly over their side just to shoot it down as soon as it left their controlled territory, and more importantly I assume people much better at math than I would be able to piece together the aircraft's flight path, where the aircraft fell and assuming the plane debris hasn't been too fucked with tell which side the missile came from and then working backwards with the speed of the missile get an idea from where it came from. (Edit:Beaten)

And that'd be a very dangerous game for the Ukraine to play because of the multitude of parties involved. If it were a plane with just one nationaility on it you might be able to say that perhaps the Ukraine and that country had some kind of deal and sacrificed these lives to gain popular support against Russia but there's a lot of different players mad about this flight and you'd have a hard time convincing me that all the affected nations are in on it and would seriously allow this to happen and give Ukraine a free pass and try and pass it off on Russia anyways.

I agree with those who said the most likely scenario is a tragic fuck up from the rebel side. If the guilty party had come clean immediately and claimed responsibility I'm not even sure if there should have been any true repercussions but now, after all this BS, someone needs to go down.

 

[Phantast2k]

Talk of Ukrainian Buk is referring to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOo-VWKezmo

They deployed them because Russian airplanes and attack helicopters were invading Ukrainian air space all the time:
Russian Aircraft Entered Ukraine Airspace: Pentagon - NYTimes.com, APRIL 25, 2014

How they are supposed to have gotten it next to the place which ended up being the plane's crash site - I don't know..

 

[Suikoguy]

Would you think it's plausible that Ukrainan government troops fired the missile from deep within the separatist area?

jimi_dini, you need to answer this post if you want anyone to take you seriously.

 

[FreedomFighter]

There's plenty of amateur video and photographs of vehicles in that region. How about the damning audio tapes, oh wait that's right you'll just call it fake. You demand something then when you see it you just deny it's real. I don't know why I'm bothering to respond to your posts. It's just denial and selective bias.

I don't even know what you're talking about. Enter rage mode all you want. That's on you. Those audiotapes aren't authenticated at all. Don't get mad at me for not following your lead and blindly accepting what certain outlets consider to be "evidence". Anyone can take a recording and say it was anyone. Nothing was confirmed yet and you know it. How about you be a little more discerning - and yes, stop responding to me please. Thank you. Rather not discuss with you anyway.

 

[Simplet]

I don't get this. Like, at all. I get a lot shit in this thread (and the Syria thread before it for actually liking RT) but I wish you guys would be as discerning, critical, and skeptical when it comes from not just Western media, but the Pentagon and State Dept.

I don't know how you guys can so faithfully believe what they tell you after so many instances of them lying and deceiving. I am utterly confused.

I'm sorry, did you just call yourself discerning and critical? That's after shitting up this thread for pages about how "suspicious" it was that nobody was allowed to the crash site, only to realize that it was the rebels in control of the area?

And then you explained it by saying that you had no idea what was going on because you had not read anything about Ukraine for months because you were on vacations and/or busy with other conspirations by the USA?

 

[ab.aeterno]

Wait, I thought the black boxes were in possession of the rebels, not the Ukrainian government.

He was contrasting the openness and calls for an investigation by Ukraine (which makes no sense to do if they are responsible for c it as you suggest), with the actions by the rebels to keep investigators out, move and mishandle evidence, loot bodies and belongings, refuse to let the dead be collected, then move them to a train without consent, etc. The rebels being the other party is implied by his examples given (since they had the black boxes.)

 

[jimi_dini]

1 - Location of the crash
2 - Flight altitude of the plane - 10km
3 - Range of missiles capable of downing the plane in the region (BUKs) - 3-20km

it's actually 42km, not just 20km.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system

 

[Osiris]

I'm sorry, did you just call yourself discerning and critical? That's after shitting up this thread for pages about how "suspicious" it was that nobody was allowed to the crash site, only to realize that it was the rebels in control of the area?

And then you explained it by saying that you had no idea what was going on because you had not read anything about Ukraine for months because you were on vacations and/or busy with other conspirations by the USA?

I'm still waiting for him to tell me who Strelkov / Girkin in, what his role is, where he is from and what his past is.

 

[BlastProcessing]

How do you tamper with sealed boxes

You reseal them after you are done.

 

[FreedomFighter]

I'm sorry, did you just call yourself discerning and critical? That's after shitting up this thread for pages about how "suspicious" it was that nobody was allowed to the crash site, only to realize that it was the rebels in control of the area?

And then you explained it by saying that you had no idea what was going on because you had not read anything about Ukraine for months because you were on vacations and/or busy with other conspirations by the USA?

I take it "shitting up the thead" = not agree with you or others so desperate to blame one side. Just admit that you don't want to hear anything that doesn't conform with your own views.

My whole position this entire time was let's wait for the investigation. See my post history. Doesn't look like that's gonna happen anytime soon now. And yes, I was on vaycay for month and moreso following the Gaza situation because I was in the region. You want pics of my stamps and visas next?

 

[ab.aeterno]

Those audiotapes aren't authenticated at all. Don't get mad at me for not following your lead and blindly accepting what certain outlets consider to be "evidence".

I guess you missed where it was admitted the conversations took place? Sounds like evidence to me.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

I don't even know what you're talking about. Enter rage mode all you want. That's on you. Those audiotapes aren't authenticated at all. Don't get mad at me for not following your lead and blindly accepting what certain outlets consider to be "evidence". Anyone can take a recording and say it was anyone. Nothing was confirmed yet and you know it. How about you be a little more discerning - and yes, stop responding to me please. Thank you. Rather not discuss with you anyway.

First of all they have been confirmed. Second of all it's not blindly accepting when even the smallest amount of critical thinking would point you to the most likely explanation for what happened. Third, I don't need the media to tell me anything the rebels themselves have said plenty on social media.

Also you keep saying you demand confirmation. Where exactly is this confirmation gonna come from when you don't trust the media and the west. Some obscure blog you go to for your wild theories?

 

[Osiris]

it's actually 42km, not just 20km.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system

You are looking at the wrong missile, the SA-11 has a max range of 35km, it's the SA-17 that has an extended range of up to 40+km, it's actually listed on the page you just linked, how about actually checking the chart on the page you have just linked to.

Is that kind of mistake pretty typical for your usual "fact checking"?

 

[Partial Gamification]

Wait, I thought the black boxes were in possession of the rebels, not the Ukrainian government.

Indeed, sorry I should have been clearer.

The Ukrainian government being open to an investigation is as powerful a statement to me as the separatists holding onto the crime scene and the black boxes. edit: and what it has taken (UN Sec Council Resolution) to hand the black boxes over.

 

[justanotheruserofgaf]

it's actually 42km, not just 20km.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system

The 3M9 has an altitude range of 2,600–36,000 ft and a range of fire of 3–24 km

That is the least range one but others can go further. So it depends upon what model BUK and rockets it was firing.

 

[LiK]

Indeed, sorry I should have been clearer.

The Ukrainian government being open to an investigation is as powerful a statement to me as the separatists holding onto the crime scene and the black boxes.

yup, and they invited the US to help with the investigation.

 

[BlastProcessing]

Wait, so this is de facto recognition of the "Donetsk People Republic" by Malaysia?? That's...uh...kind of a big deal isn't it? In return for a black box.

I seriously doubt that the delegation that Malaysia sent has the power to recognize a sovereign nation on Malaysia's behalf.

 

[FreedomFighter]

*snip*

Not gonna waste my time reading anything you just had to say, bro. I'm done with you man. Keep it movin'.

I guess you missed where it was admitted the conversations took place? Sounds like evidence to me.

Which post am I supposed to be looking at here?

 

[FunkyMunkey]

Not gonna waste my time reading anything you just had to say, bro. I'm done with you man. Keep it movin'.

Not reading seems to be the status quo with you anyways.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

I thought "didn't read lol" was frowned upon here

 

[Partial Gamification]

yup, and they invited the US to help with the investigation.

Do you doubt the ability of the NTSB and the FBI to look at this crash? The OSCE? The UN International Civil Aviation Organization?

I'm asking if you are suggesting that there is something dubious about the Ukrainian government asking [the US authorities] to investigate a plane crash -a Boeing 777, made in the USA?

 

[LiK]

Do you doubt the ability of the NTSB and the FBI to look at this crash? The OSCE? The UN International Civil Aviation Organization?

I'm asking if you are suggesting that there is something dubious about the Ukrainian government asking to investigate a plane crash -a Boeing 777, made in the USA?

i'm agreeing with you. not sure where you're going with this.

 

[ab.aeterno]

Which post am I supposed to be looking at here?

Sorry, I forgot mobile GAF links don't work well on desktop for some reason. I usually post from my phone.

Here's the corrected link.

 

[Kinitari]

Not gonna waste my time reading anything you just had to say, bro. I'm done with you man. Keep it movin'.

Which post am I supposed to be looking at here?

This post: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=121845442#post121845442

Igor Bezler has confirmed to Lenta.ru that the communications interception where he speaks about downing the plane is authentic, however claims that he was talking about a different aircraft.

"We really did discuss over the telephone the searches for a plane, but those who think that we shot it down, have to pour the kefir out of their brains.

On the tape, it is clearly audible that the talk was about a plane in Enakievo. The Boeing fell in the area of Snezhnyoe. There are 100 kilometers between them, I don't have weapons capable of downing planes at such a distance."


The flight path of the Malaysian plane was over Enakievo and it crashed in Grabovo, which is roughly equidistant from either Torez or Snezhnoye, both towns controlled by separatists where the BUK anti-aircraft system has been spotted.

Uh-huh.

 

[Partial Gamification]

i'm agreeing with you. not sure where you're going with this.

I'm reading too much presstv.ir

 

[Simplet]

I take it "shitting up the thead" = not agree with you or others so desperate to blame one side. Just admit that you don't want to hear anything that doesn't conform with your own views.

My whole position this entire time was let's wait for the investigation. See my post history. Doesn't look like that's gonna happen anytime soon now. And yes, I was on vaycay for month and moreso following the Gaza situation because I was in the region. You want pics of my stamps and visas next?

I don't want proof that you are clueless, I don't care that much about you and you said yourself that you're clueless anyway. Provided that you clearly know nothing about this situation, as you've shown multiple times so far with bold-face demonstrably false allegations, link to ridiculous propaganda pieces by fringe conspiracy theorists and kooky "alternative media" and through the fact that you yourself admitted that you know nothing, why would you come back to this thread claiming to be "discernible" (ugh) and trying to show everyonne else they're blind sheep?

That doesn't just seem arrogant, that makes no sense at all

 

[Suikoguy]

it's actually 42km, not just 20km.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system

So instead of responding to the post, you pick out something to correct?

And you wonder why no-one takes you seriously.

So sad

\/ Chittagong sure has more patience then me... \/

 

[Chittagong]

it's actually 42km, not just 20km.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system

Ok, I updated my post with the max range of 42km and a map - which I believe still would show that the missile had physically be fired within the separatist controlled area.

So, the question remains, do you think it's plausible (not likely, just plausible) that Ukraine govenment could have fired the missile from the separatist controlled area?

 

[ape2man]

I'm keen to understand what you feel is possible, so let's simplify assumptions.

Let's put aside the alleged sightings of BUKs coming in and out of separatist areas, and disregard the recorded phone conversation for now, and put no weight on the posted and deleted social media posts from the separtists about shooting down a plane. Forget them for now. Let's also dismiss for now the American satellite detection of the missile coming from deep within the separatist area. Since all these points can be debated, let's leave them aside for now and focus on three indisputables

1 - Location of the crash
2 - Flight altitude of the plane - 10km
3 - Range of missiles capable of downing the plane in the region (BUKs) - 3-20km 3-42km

If we simply look at where the plane exploded, and then draw a circle around it as large as the radius of the missile used to downed it minus the plane's flight altitude (42km-10km=33km), I think we find is that we are still bound to be within the separatist area (or Russia).

Would you think it's plausible that Ukrainan government troops fired the missile from deep within the separatist area?

Why even bother. Logic does not work with him.

 

[Chittagong]

To give a scale to the map for those who don't know much of Ukraine geography, including myself, the distance from Donetsk to Mariupol is 231km for example:

http://distance4.com/distance/Donetsk/Mariupol/

Added this to the post.

 

[Amir0x]

hm what if the map is inaccurate and it blew up somewhere else but they moved the plane there!!!

 

[LNBL]

Emotional speech to the UN by our Minister of Foreign Affairs

http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/6610051/b42b011a/emotionele_timmerfrans_in_vn_veiligheidsraad.html

 

[FreedomFighter]

I don't want proof that you are clueless, I don't care that much about you and you said yourself that you're clueless anyway. Provided that you clearly know nothing about this situation, as you've shown multiple times so far with bold-face demonstrably false allegations, link to ridiculous propaganda pieces by fringe conspiracy theorists and kooky "alternative media" and through the fact that you yourself admitted that you know nothing, why would you come back to this thread claiming to be "discernible" (ugh) and trying to show everyonne else they're blind sheep?

That doesn't just seem arrogant, that makes no sense at all

Nah, man. I just don't have a bloodlust for Russia like some of you do. Like I said, my position the entire time was wait for the investigation. And I liked the Pepe Escobar piece and it's obvious you would dismiss it for the reasons I stated before. And yes, you don't have to use italics, I said loud and clear that I took a break from Ukraine and not as up on what's been happening lately. Doesn't change the fact that all I see are empty allegations with nothing to back them up. But don't catch feelings man. It's only a message board.

 

[Chittagong]

hm what if the map is inaccurate and it blew up somewhere else but they moved the plane there!!!

For Ukraine to be guilty

1 - plane was moved after crash to deep within the separatist area by Ukraine government
2 - Ukrainan government shot the missile from deep within the separatist area
3 - Ukrainan government has secret anti air missiles with a range of 150-250km
4 - Ukrainan govenment flew fighter jets 200km inside the separatist area and shot the plane in the air

Any theory I'm missing?

 

[Psychotext]

Assuming 41km in any one direction from the last known location of the plane you can certainly assume you're safely in rebel held territory.

 

[DarkFlow]

It's amazing how 2 people can shit up a whole thread.

 

[FreedomFighter]

Sorry, I forgot mobile GAF links don't work well on desktop for some reason. I usually post from my phone.

Here's the corrected link.

No prob. Thanks.

I heard an alternative take on this too... something about the time stamps on the recordings being from three separate recordings. And we know the rebels shot down Ukrainian planes. I don't think this is definitive at all but it also could be the smoking gun. We don't know.

 

[Suikoguy]

Nah, man. I just don't have a bloodlust for Russia like some of you do. Like I said, my position the entire time was wait for the investigation. And I liked the Pepe Escobar piece and it's obvious you would dismiss it for the reasons I stated before. And yes, you don't have to use italics, I said loud and clear that I took a break from Ukraine and not as up on what's been happening lately. Doesn't change the fact that all I see are empty allegations with nothing to back them up. But don't catch feelings man. It's only a message board.

Care to list the allegations you see are empty?

 

[ab.aeterno]

Doesn't change the fact that all I see are empty allegations with nothing to back them up.

Well, one less empty allegation, correct? As you questioned the assertion that the audio recordings were verified and you've since been given evidence proving that assertion.

Edit: Just saw your post.

 

[PlayALLtheGames]

I don't get this. Like, at all. I get a lot shit in this thread (and the Syria thread before it for actually liking RT) but I wish you guys would be as discerning, critical, and skeptical when it comes from not just Western media, but the Pentagon and State Dept.

I don't know how you guys can so faithfully believe what they tell you after so many instances of them lying and deceiving. I am utterly confused.

I don't understand why the assumption that we're going by the Pentagon and State Dept. Pretty much zero of the information I've gotten about the event has been from the U.S. government, except when I overheard newscasts quoting them saying things I had already read.

 

[jimi_dini]

You are looking at the wrong missile, the SA-11 has a max range of 35km

On this site http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-18/did-a-missile-down-the-malaysian-jet-over-ukraine/5606156

it even says that the range is up to 45km. btw. how did you find out that it definitely was a SA-11?

 

[Osiris]

Well, one less empty allegation, correct? As you questioned the assertion that the audio recordings were verified and you've since been given evidence proving that assertion.

He'll move the goalposts, watch.

 

[Ollie Pooch]

I'm actually genuinely surprised that anyone puts any weight on an alternate "Ukraine did it" theory given the already damning phone calls/social media/videos/post-crash behaviour - it's so stupid it's almost funny given how much stretching has to be done to implicate them, but then I realise it's for real and then it's kinda sad and annoying.

 

[Simplet]

Nah, man. I just don't have a bloodlust for Russia like some of you do. Like I said, my position the entire time was wait for the investigation. And I liked the Pepe Escobar piece and it's obvious you would dismiss it for the reasons I stated before. And yes, you don't have to use italics, I said loud and clear that I took a break from Ukraine and not as up on what's been happening lately. Doesn't change the fact that all I see are empty allegations with nothing to back them up. But don't catch feelings man. It's only a message board.

Well obviously you can think what you want and post whatever you want. Just please refrain from calling yourself "discernible" or "wise" or anything of that sort in public. It's very tasteless and give people douche chills.

 

[Kinitari]

On this site http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-18/did-a-missile-down-the-malaysian-jet-over-ukraine/5606156

it even says that the range is up to 45km. btw. how did you find out that it definitely was a SA-11?

Let's say it has a max range of 100km! What do you think about the map that was presented for you specifically?

 

[Osiris]

On this site http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-18/did-a-missile-down-the-malaysian-jet-over-ukraine/5606156

it even says that the range is up to 45km. btw. how did you find out that it definitely was a SA-11?

You really are incapable of reading English then.

That article is talking about SA-11 and SA-17's, it says so in the article that its talking about both missiles.

It was an SA-11 that US intelligence stated was used and detected, not an SA-17.

 

[Psychotext]

it even says that the range is up to 45km. btw. how did you find out that it definitely was a SA-11?

Range could be 80km and it would still have to have been fired within rebel held territory.

 

[pulsemyne]

For Ukraine to be guilty

1 - plane was moved after crash to deep within the separatist area by Ukraine government
2 - Ukrainan government shot the missile from deep within the separatist area
3 - Ukrainan government has secret anti air missiles with a range of 150-250km
4 - Ukrainan govenment flew fighter jets 200km inside the separatist area and shot the plane in the air

Any theory I'm missing?

This is the main reason russia has now come up with the whole "It was a fighter jet!" thing. They know the missile bit points the finger at sepratists so they need another way of it not being a surface to air missile.