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[Phantast2k]

It's not 42km. Said rocket is produced since 1998 in Russia.
The latest tech Ukraine may posses is 9K37M (3–35 km)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system#Comparison

The only thing Ukraine did since the end of Soviet Union is bleed / sell military tech, not acquire it.

 

[Suikoguy]

You really are incapable of reading English then.

That article is talking about SA-11 and SA-17's, it says so in the article that its talking about both missiles.

It was an SA-11 that US intelligence stated was used and detected, not an SA-17.

It's selective reading. He would rather argue this point, rather then the actual question posted since he can't reasonably respond to it.

 

[Chittagong]

On this site http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-18/did-a-missile-down-the-malaysian-jet-over-ukraine/5606156

it even says that the range is up to 45km. btw. how did you find out that it definitely was a SA-11?

Have a look at the map of the last known location of the plane, and areas controlled by the separatists. Since you bring up the range, would you say it changes your conclusion of whose area the missile was shot from if the range is 45km instead of 20km?

 

[FreedomFighter]

I don't understand why the assumption that we're going by the Pentagon and State Dept. Pretty much zero of the information I've gotten about the event has been from the U.S. government, except when I overheard newscasts quoting them saying things I had already read.

I don't think it's coming from the State Dept. or Pentagon. Maybe as a secondary source, but I feel like their getting info from Kiev.

Well obviously you can think what you want and post whatever you want. Just please refrain from calling yourself "discernible" or "wise" or anything of that sort in public. It's very tasteless and give people douche chills.

Yes, drill sergeant.

 

[Osiris]

btw. how did you find out that it definitely was a SA-11?

United States Assessment of the Downing of Flight MH17 and its Aftermath

 

[Chittagong]

The question remains - do those who think it's plausible that Ukraine downed the plane feel that it's plausible that they fired the missile from deep within the separatist held area, which is the only possibility using the three indisputable facts - crash location, flight altitude and missile range?

 

[Osiris]

The question remains - do those who think it's plausible that Ukraine downed the plane feel that it's plausible that they fired the missile from deep within the separatist held area?

Awkward questions don't get answered, just skipped over.

 

[Phantast2k]

The question remains - do those who think it's plausible that Ukraine downed the plane feel that it's plausible that they fired the missile from deep within the separatist held area, which is the only possibility using the three indisputable facts - crash location, flight altitude and missile range?

I'm just acting as devil's advocate here, but the latest Ukrainian war maps suggest that they still hold on to the South-Eastern border areas (even though the get pounded with MRLs from Russian territory) and they do hold the Donetsk airport, but I don't think it's enough (edit: as far as Buk reach goes).

Not sure if direct linking will work, so:
https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPR/status/491237632282988545
Edit2: link to bigger pic:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtE6BaCCIAA3nT_.jpg:large

 

[Sayter]

The question remains - do those who think it's plausible that Ukraine downed the plane feel that it's plausible that they fired the missile from deep within the separatist held area, which is the only possibility using the three indisputable facts - crash location, flight altitude and missile range?

Plausible? Sure. However the over whelming amount of evidence shows otherwise.

 

[FreedomFighter]

Well, one less empty allegation, correct? As you questioned the assertion that the audio recordings were verified and you've since been given evidence proving that assertion.

Edit: Just saw your post.

Yeah, the reason I'm skeptical is because it's coming from Kiev. The last time that happened we got this fiasco. That's why I want a little bit more before I'm convinced that they're talking about MH17 specifically.

 

[pulsemyne]

Not sure if this has been posted yet

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/1d6a9ac2-10e3-11e4-b116-00144feabdc0.html#axzz388QQjCsK

Basically it shows the plane was shot from the front so it must have been a SAM.

 

[jimi_dini]

It was an SA-11 that US intelligence stated was used and detected, not an SA-17.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ne-crashes-on-Ukraine-Russia-border-live.html

"At the moment, we have no doubt that the plane was shot down. The reason for it - a missile strike most likely from a BUK-M1 (SA-11 radar guided missile system).

"most likely" and "was used" are not the same. We are currently playing guess work anyway. So we either do that and anything that is not fact is open for discussion or we don't.

Explains some people in here. actual news coverage: "Airplane was probably shot down by rebels" -> is converted to "Airplane was shot down by rebels"

 

[ape2man]

Plausible? Sure. However the over whelming amount of evidence shows otherwise.

thats not plausible

 

[Psychotext]

but I don't think it's enough (edit: as far as Buk reach goes).

It wouldn't be, unless somehow they had rockets with far greater ranges (they don't).

 

[Phantast2k]

Yeah, the reason I'm skeptical is because it's coming from Kiev. The last time that happened we got this fiasco. That's why I want a little bit more before I'm convinced that they're talking about MH17 specifically.

Yes and now we have mountains of evidence of Russians operating in E. Ukraine, including active Russian soldiers being / captured killed there.

/

It wouldn't be, unless somehow they had rockets with far greater ranges (they don't).

Yes, apparently so.

 

[Osiris]

Yes and now we have mountains of evidence of Russians operating in E. Ukraine, including active Russian soldiers being / captured killed there.

I found the Polish article earlier today that spoke about the 'Epidemic' of missing Russian soldiers dying whilst on "Vacation in Ukraine" or on "Training Exercises" quite amusing

 

[KHarvey16]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ne-crashes-on-Ukraine-Russia-border-live.html



"most likely" and "was used" are not the same. We are currently playing guess work anyway. So we either do that and anything that is not fact is open for discussion or we don't.

Explains some people in here. actual news coverage: "Airplane was probably shot down by rebels" -> is converted to "Airplane was shot down by rebels"

You're quoting the Ukrainian Prime Minister

 

[Dominican Power]

So many interesting and important people were on that flight.

 

[Ollie Pooch]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ne-crashes-on-Ukraine-Russia-border-live.html



"most likely" and "was used" are not the same. We are currently playing guess work anyway. So we either do that and anything that is not fact is open for discussion or we don't.

Explains some people in here. actual news coverage: "Airplane was probably shot down by rebels" -> is converted to "Airplane was shot down by rebels"

Man, use your brain.

People here aren't just blindly going off a single headline and believing it, there are multiple factors pointing to the plane being shot down by rebels. The location of the crash, the direction of the flight - which would rule out Ukraine thinking it was a Russian plane - video of a missile battery being moved back across the Russian border post-crash, intercepted phone calls basically confirming they had shot down a plane, a bumbling retraction after one of the phone call leaks, social media posts being removed, photos of a plane nose area with shrapnel damage, black box recorders being removed, and the rebels themselves stopping investigators from being able to access the crash site. Why one earth are you ignoring this stuff?

 

[jimi_dini]

You're quoting the Ukrainian Prime Minister

And he was quoting US intelligence.

http://ukraine.usembassy.gov/statements/asmt-07192014.html

We assess that Flight MH17 was likely downed by a SA-11 surface-to-air missile from separatist-controlled territory in eastern Ukraine. We base this judgment on several factors.

Oh wait, it's not even "most likely", but just "likely". Thanks.

Why one earth are you ignoring this stuff?

I'm not ignoring it, but posts in "social media" are simply not evidence.

OSCE themselves also just said something completely different than mass media did.

I will quote it again, youtube link is a few pages back. It's BBC world, so hopefully not infiltrated by Russia.
"whenever we said we wanted to go to the site ... they let us ..."
...
"they've done some work in terms of perimeter security for us ... because there are a lot of turmoils here ..."

They didn't say "well after 2 days we were let to the site", no - they said "whenever we wanted to go to the site, we were let there"

Still OSCE themselves are not absolutely trustworthy anymore. In May a group of effectively western military spies were held by the rebels and at least in my country mass media called them "OSCE observers" from beginning to end, which simply wasn't true. And this was done everywhere. Television. Print. Internet. But fact is that those weren't people from the OSCE and OSCE themselves didn't have a problem with that. There were a few reports in the end saying that "oh well, it wasn't true, they were actually military inspectors, not related with OSCE, but who gives a shit". That's the definition of fact-twisting and propaganda, which is acceptable from mass media, but OSCE should have done something right at the start of it, but they didn't.

 

[Stinkles]

And he was quoting US intelligence.

http://ukraine.usembassy.gov/statements/asmt-07192014.html


Oh wait, it's not even "most likely", but just "likely". Thanks.

Why are you ignoring all the questions people are asking you about the sequence of events?

 

[KHarvey16]

And he was quoting US intelligence.

http://ukraine.usembassy.gov/statements/asmt-07192014.html


Oh wait, it's not even "most likely", but just "likely". Thanks.

Did you read the supporting evidence? The most damning piece of evidence is literally math.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

Jimi, I strongly suggest that if you're going to try and discuss this with other people, then A) try to be honest about your actual premise (Ukraine shot down MH17) rather than obfuscating and dodging it for pages, and, B) when people offer reasoned, sourced rebuttals to your arguments, don't ignore 90% of their posts to split irrelevant hairs in a transparent attempt to try and divert the subject.

 

[Chittagong]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ne-crashes-on-Ukraine-Russia-border-live.html

"most likely" and "was used" are not the same. We are currently playing guess work anyway. So we either do that and anything that is not fact is open for discussion or we don't.

Explains some people in here. actual news coverage: "Airplane was probably shot down by rebels" -> is converted to "Airplane was shot down by rebels"

Well, you know, I did my best to try and present the case for where the missile was shot from without any guess work, or any information tainted by interpretation by either side of the conflict, using only three variables that are binary instead of likelihoods.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Hey jimi do you still think some Ukrainian conscripts operating a big ol' SAM system in the very heartland of the militias thinking they were being subject to Russian air invasion via a single plane that was at 30,000ft moving south-east and minutes away from crossing into Russia and, in a panic, fired a missile at it all without nobody noticing and then somehow still not being discovered to this day is a more sensible set of events than the militants who have been taking down aircraft on the reg firing at MH17 because they mistook it for a Ukrainian military craft?

Just wondering.

 

[Ollie Pooch]

Hey jimi do you still think some Ukrainian conscripts operating a big ol' SAM system in the very heartland of the militias thinking they were being subject to Russian air invasion via a single plane that was at 30,000ft moving south-east and minutes away from crossing into Russia and, in a panic, fired a missile at it all without nobody noticing and then somehow still not being discovered to this day is a more sensible set of events than the militants who have been taking down aircraft on the reg firing at MH17 because they mistook it for a Ukrainian military craft?

Just wondering.

I actually think that's what he believes. Or wants to believe, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

 

[ErnieMcCracken]

I actually think that's what he believes. Or wants to believe, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

I'd like to know WHY he believes that...

 

[CHEEZMO™]

I'd like to know WHY he believes that...

Because the militias are Good, and shooting down an airliner is Very Bad, and Good people dont do Bad things. So this has to be dealt with internally somehow. The result is a conspiracy theory

See, it wasn't the Goodies who did Bad Thing, it was actually the Biggest Bads (AmeriKKKa and The WeSSt) doing the Bad Thing to make the Goodies look Bad. This way he gets to carry on supporting them without feeling conflicted. See also; Assad stans.

 

[Ollie Pooch]

I'd like to know WHY he believes that...

We can only hope he applies as much analysis and dismissal to any other theories, though I'd doubt it.

 

[Stinkles]

I'd like to know WHY he believes that...

Pro Russian or Pro pointless trolling.

 

[DarkFlow]

I'd like to know WHY he believes that...

I'm pretty sure you'll never know. I'll be surprised if he even posts her again after the mod warning.

 

[JCizzle]

And he was quoting US intelligence.

http://ukraine.usembassy.gov/statements/asmt-07192014.html


Oh wait, it's not even "most likely", but just "likely". Thanks.

Intelligence is kind of like science where 'theories' aren't really theories as most people think of the word. Read the supporting language behind the words.

 

[Chittagong]

I'd like to know WHY he believes that...

Based on the previous responses, I would say the logic is something like this: "The west has a vested interest in the outcome of the Ukrainan crisis. The west / Ukraine has been known to fabricate or spin facts in the past. Thus in this case it is possible they are doing the same. Hence I must be open to a scenario where west / Ukraine is at fault."

Now of course what doggedly following that logic fails to consider is that if the basic facts do not anymore allow for a realistic scenario to be entertained, sticking to the logic forces one into outlandishly ridiculous theories.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

It's fucking comical that they're all coming out with the same shit around the same time. Just happens to have taken this long for Russia to start properly forming this same narrative and start pushing it.

Total coincidence tho

"The majority of pacifists either belong to obscure religious sects or are simply humanitarians who object to taking life and prefer not to follow their thoughts beyond that point. But there is a minority of intellectual pacifists, whose real though unacknowledged motive appears to be hatred of western democracy and admiration for totalitarianism. Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side is as bad as the other, but if one looks closely at the writing of the younger intellectual pacifists, one finds that they do not by any means express impartial disapproval but are directed almost entirely against Britain and the United States …"

 

[Osiris]

I'm pretty sure you'll never know. I'll be surprised if he even posts her again after the mod warning.

S.O.P. is to wait for the heat to die down and let enough time to pass for any difficult questions to be safely forgotten about, and then return to the thread later with more bullshit and the game starts up again.

Or was that FreedomFighters SOP, I forget

 

[CHEEZMO™]

"The majority of pacifists either belong to obscure religious sects or are simply humanitarians who object to taking life and prefer not to follow their thoughts beyond that point. But there is a minority of intellectual pacifists, whose real though unacknowledged motive appears to be hatred of western democracy and admiration for totalitarianism. Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side is as bad as the other, but if one looks closely at the writing of the younger intellectual pacifists, one finds that they do not by any means express impartial disapproval but are directed almost entirely against Britain and the United States …"

If we're going the Orwell route, people should also check out the concept of "negative nationalism" which is basically the driving force behind the sort of people who unironically watch RT/InfoWars etc.

 

[Phantast2k]

I found the Polish article earlier today that spoke about the 'Epidemic' of missing Russian soldiers dying whilst on "Vacation in Ukraine" or on "Training Exercises" quite amusing

Yeah yeah, I already posted a google translated article of a missing Russian conscript (who is still serving). I only get tipped off by fb friends / twitter, the Western media does not give a fuck about it!
But now that Russian media is reporting on it and MH17 - they're ought to start to give a shit at some point..

Even a big Russian newspaper recently reported on 2 missing Ru. soldiers:
http://m.kp.ru/daily/26256/3135812// (it's already gone, but google cached it: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://m.kp.ru/daily/26256/3135812//&strip=1 - though only the text is still displaying) -> Google translated
"Russian soldiers were killed by Lugansk, rescuing refugees"
Other than that only local Ru. newspapers report on it.

They were spetsnaz according to their very own ru. social networks profiles..
People ripped plenty of pics from their profiles before they got taken down:
https://www.facebook.com/euromaidanpr/posts/278840278966448 (caution: one pic is of his dead body)

 

[DarkFlow]

S.O.P. is to wait for the heat to die down and let enough time to pass for any difficult questions to be safely forgotten about, and then return to the thread later with more bullshit and the game starts up again.

Or was that FreedomFighters SOP, I forget

Nah, that was Freddy.

The burden of proof is on me to prove Putin is stopping people investigating the wreckage, has full control over the area and therefore governments should get together and impose tougher sanctions?

Please...



Are you really telling me those pics are evidence. Did you look at them at all?


PS: Apologies to anyone who quotes me in the next while Its sunday afternoon here and I have to go out for a bit.

Still the last post he made lol.

 

[Osiris]

Ok, so who has the language skills to translate the documents the Malaysians were embarrassingly forced to sign to get back the Black Boxes in a dog and pony show that was totally disrespectful?

Pics released of the docs signed

 

[ErnieMcCracken]

I'm pretty sure you'll never know. I'll be surprised if he even posts her again after the mod warning.

He never did answer as to who he thinks did it and how, even after being asked twice. Wonder if he frequents the 9/11 thread...

 

[DarkFlow]

He never did answer as to who he thinks did it and how, even after being asked twice. Wonder if he frequents the 9/11 thread...

Well he does seem to be a big Nintendo Fan.

 

[hydragonwarrior]

I missed it, but are the rebels returning the bodies?

 

[jimi_dini]

Jimi, I strongly suggest that if you're going to try and discuss this with other people, then A) try to be honest about your actual premise (Ukraine shot down MH17) rather than obfuscating and dodging it for pages

I'm not dodging. It's just really late here and I actually wanted to sleep. I can't read every single reply and answer it, because there are simply way too many and plenty are just asking me questions and I have to look through all the things that I read in the last few days, which takes time.

And my premise simply isn't that "Ukraine did it". That's actually my actual problem with it. Everyone seems to have to take sides (and does so). Mass media in Russia does propaganda against Ukraine. Mass media in the west does propaganda against Russia and the rebels. That's my beef with it, because noone knows anything for sure. Russia at least released satellite footage today, which are not trustworthy on here I guess.

My premise always was that I'm pretty sure that whoever is responsible for the airplane didn't do it on purpose. And I really mean anyone.

 

[antonz]

I missed it, but are the rebels returning the bodies?

They are finally yes. Train will be heading to non conflict Ukrainian Territory shortly.

 

[DarkFlow]

I'm not dodging. It's just really late here and I actually wanted to sleep. I can't read every single reply and answer it, because there are simply way too many and plenty are just asking me questions and I have to look through all the things that I read in the last few days, which takes time.

And my premise simply isn't that "Ukraine did it". That's actually my actual problem with it. Everyone seems to have to take sides (and does so). Mass media in Russia does propaganda against Ukraine. Mass media in the west does propaganda against Russia and the rebels. That's my beef with it, because noone knows anything for sure. Russia at least released satellite footage today, which are not trustworthy on here I guess.

My premise always was that I'm pretty sure that whoever is responsible for the airplane didn't do it on purpose. And I really mean anyone.

 

[KHarvey16]

I'm not dodging. It's just really late here and I actually wanted to sleep. I can't read every single reply and answer it, because there are simply way too many and plenty are just asking me questions and I have to look through all the things that I read in the last few days, which takes time.

And my premise simply isn't that "Ukraine did it". That's actually my actual problem with it. Everyone seems to have to take sides (and does so). Mass media in Russia does propaganda against Ukraine. Mass media in the west does propaganda against Russia and the rebels. That's my beef with it, because noone knows anything for sure. Russia at least released satellite footage today, which are not trustworthy on here I guess.

My premise always was that I'm pretty sure that whoever is responsible for the airplane didn't do it on purpose. And I really mean anyone.

Can you posit a scenario in which the separatists did not fire the missile and yet still account for the facts we know to be true, ie the range of the missile system and the location of the crash?

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Thanks for using what little time you have to write three paragraphs but not enough to actually answer any of the direct questions you were asked, jimi babe.

 

[brian577]

I doubt the black boxes have any incriminating evidence on them. Most likely the rebels had Russia examine them first. I'd like to know if the rebels gave up the bodies and boxes willingly or Russia pressured them however. Russia did sign the UN resolution, they could be washing their hands of the situation.

 

[Partial Gamification]

Ok, so who has the language skills to translate the documents the Malaysians were embarrassingly forced to sign to get back the Black Boxes in a dog and pony show that was totally disrespectful?

Pics released of the docs signed

They have stamps from the Malaysian National Security Council. One could make that stamp out of wax, mold it, and start recognizing one's own Countries!

 

[Ollie Pooch]

My premise always was that I'm pretty sure that whoever is responsible for the airplane didn't do it on purpose. And I really mean anyone.

Didn't do what on purpose? Shoot down an airplane? You mean they manned, locked onto, and fired on a plane without confirming what it was or knowing the end result? Or that they shot down the airliner thinking it was something else?

Either way they're 100% responsible for the deaths of every single person on it, and so far all evidence points to Russian backed rebels being responsible, and no evidence so far points to Ukraine.