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Malaysia Airlines flight en route from Amsterdam shot down over Ukraine; no survivors

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ymoc

ymoc

Member
CyclopsRock said:
By full support I mean do what we can to stop the possibility of other countries falling prey to Russia like Georgia and Ukraine have, and my preferred solution is significantly larger economic sanctions.

Does it matter if Georgia is still a problem? Time runs linearly, that doesn't stop the suffering nor instability that was caused by their intervention.

Firstly, they have invaded foreign countries, and secondly, it's not their backyard - you own your backyard! Ukraine, Georgia, Malaysian aeroplanes are not their property, they're not somehow "Russia's" - they're sovereign countries that have had that sovereignty violated. The fact that your prediction is that any future manoeuvres on their behalf will remain in Eastern Europe isn't exactly comforting to me.

Edit: The EU *is* all about Soft Power, and this event has shown exactly how flaccid that power is.
Click to expand...


I'm sure in a capitalistic world we live in this will be easily done...
Which EU country will willingly stop trade with Russia? Can they even afford something like that in a time like this when countries are already stretched to economic limits?
It might sound as a good idea on paper, but in reality money drives the world and that is why you'll never se Merkel loudly bashing Russia.
Or, MAYBE, we should at least wait until investigators have a chance to finish their INVESTIGATION before we start talking punishment.
Stop listening to Kerry too much.

Soft power is soft power, it is not hard and erect as you might put it. Each have their own merits and faults. It is what it is. Though I fear what's your vision of hard power and what the EU should have done (we had that kind of hard powers in Europe many times already and we all know how that ended).
 
C

CyclopsRock

Member
ymoc said:
I'm sure in a capitalistic world we live in this will be easily done...
Which EU country will willingly stop trade with Russia? Can they even afford something like that in a time like this when countries are already stretched to economic limits?
It might sound as a good idea on paper, but in reality money drives the world and that is why you'll never se Merkel loudly bashing Russia.
Or, MAYBE, we should at least wait until investigators have a chance to finish their INVESTIGATION before we start talking punishment.
Stop listening to Kerry too much.

Soft power is soft power, it is not hard and erect as you might put it. Each have their own merits and faults. It is what it is. Though I fear what's your vision of hard power and what the EU should have done (we had that kind of hard powers in Europe many times already and we all know how that ended).
Click to expand...

Everything you've said in the first paragraph is true, but you first quoted me by contesting that anything needed to be done, not that what needs to be done is either difficult or politically impossible. I've never doubted that, disappointing though it is. That doesn't change the fact that I think the leaders of Germany, France etc are being short sighted by doing so.

And I'm not sure making parallels to previous wars in Europe is a particularly good idea - the "soft power" response to the Nazi's didn't achieve anything except the rapid invasion of Czechoslovakia and Poland, and it took hard power - very, very hard power - responses from the few countries still able to fight in order to stop the Nazis. Now, I don't think this is a useful parallel in most ways, but eh, I'm not the one bringing up European history as a reason why soft power is a useful solution.
 
ymoc

ymoc

Member
CyclopsRock said:
Everything you've said in the first paragraph is true, but you first quoted me by contesting that anything needed to be done, not that what needs to be done is either difficult or politically impossible. I've never doubted that, disappointing though it is. That doesn't change the fact that I think the leaders of Germany, France etc are being short sighted by doing so.

And I'm not sure making parallels to previous wars in Europe is a particularly good idea - the "soft power" response to the Nazi's didn't achieve anything except the rapid invasion of Czechoslovakia and Poland, and it took hard power - very, very hard power - responses from the few countries still able to fight in order to stop the Nazis. Now, I don't think this is a useful parallel in most ways, but eh, I'm not the one bringing up European history as a reason why soft power is a useful solution.
Click to expand...

Argeed, just the bolded: We weren't a hard power by any definition of the word, yet managed to launch opposition warfare and liberated much of the country by ourselves. Without that even the "hard powers" would not guarantee our independence. Hell, the only territory we lost was through negotiations (soft power?!) at the end of the war.
; )
 
C

CyclopsRock

Member
ymoc said:
Argeed, just the bolded: We weren't a hard power by any definition of the word, yet managed to launch opposition warfare and liberated much of the country by ourselves. Without that even the "hard powers" would not guarantee our independence. Hell, the only territory we lost was through negotiations (soft power?!) at the end of the war.
; )
Click to expand...

I don't think a country is or isn't a hard power - they are different ways of exercising power. Hard power is effectively just military, soft power is mostly economic and diplomatic. At the time - and I'm not sure where you're from so I don't know who you mean when you say "we" - all the liberation that occurred was entirely in the field of hard power. It was the attempted used of soft power at the start of the war that helped the Axis get off to a flying start.

But, uhh, we may be off topic...
 
A

AndyD

aka andydumi
Incognito said:
...in alternate reality world:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/23/w...column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news
Click to expand...

Realistically, if you are not sophisticated and all you see are the pictures we saw around here, of a pile of passports and naked bodies, you start to wonder. I imagine it is the equivalent of fox news. Show certain pictures or angles of the scene in question, say a few dubious statements to sow some seeds, bring in faux experts to speculate wildly then let the mind wonder.


Personally, I always was confused about explosions removing clothes. How does that work exactly? I don't imagine the clothes burn, do they rip off at the seams? What about shoes, particularly stuff with laces like boots, do your feet "shrink", elongate and exit the shoes, or do the shoes expand, or rip off? Do you get "rug burn" from the friction? Seriously, i don't mean it in an insensitive way, it just has been something I wondered about but never understood.
 
O

Osiris

I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
AndyD said:
Realistically, if you are not sophisticated and all you see are the pictures we saw around here, of a pile of passports and naked bodies, you start to wonder. I imagine it is the equivalent of fox news. Show certain pictures or angles of the scene in question, say a few dubious statements to sow some seeds, bring in faux experts to speculate wildly then let the mind wonder.


Personally, I always was confused about explosions removing clothes. How does that work exactly? I don't imagine the clothes burn, do they rip off at the seams? What about shoes, particularly stuff with laces like boots, do your feet "shrink", elongate and exit the shoes, or do the shoes expand, or rip off? Do you get "rug burn" from the friction? Seriously, i don't mean it in an insensitive way, it just has been something I wondered about but never understood.
Click to expand...

It doesn't take a lot to blow clothes off a person, and yeah, ripped at the seams.
 
S

sangreal

Member
Great wording, AP!

nO884Nd.png
 
D

DSKMan

Banned
Sad, but a passenger plane with 51 people on it just crashed in Taiwan, killing all on board. At least it was a small domestic flight, and a large jumbo plane like flight 17.
 
V

Vilix

Unconfirmed Member
fanboi said:
Apperantly two Su-25 has been shoot down by separatists... Just now that is.
Click to expand...

I wonder if the Ukrainians will ever realize they need to send in a few special forces to take out the missile defense system first? I'm sure there's enough intelligence gathering assets in the area to know their comings and goings.
 
W

Wind's Howling

Member
Man.

Watching that live NOS stream with all the coffins being placed in a hearse is breaking my heart. 40 of them just standing there.

Respect for the Dutch military on how smooth everything is going.
 
R

Rei_Toei

Fclvat sbe Pnanqn, ru?
Watched it at work with a couple hundred colleagues at our central hall. Hard time watching it after the Last Post.
 
P

Purkake4

Banned
Chariot said:
jbb3Koq9h1dfB7.png

Everything that's grey, I guess.Russian population. The times of the sowjet union have long past. Those people aren't russian since decades anymore. Just because they and their anchestors were russian once, doesen't make it right to just invade another land. Actually wasn't that exactly what the third Reich did with the Sudetenland?
Click to expand...
Poor Croatia, everyone forgets about the newest EU member state :(
 
S

Scorpion Soldier

Member
Rivyn said:
Man.

Watching that live NOS stream with all the coffins being placed in a hearse is breaking my heart. 40 of them just standing there.

Respect for the Dutch military on how smooth everything is going.
Click to expand...
I agree. Damn this is pretty hard to watch, and to think these are just the first 40...
 
R

raindoc

Member
MacNille said:
That and they have a great military.
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Mainly they have the alps. Their national defense strategy resembles/resembled closely what Austria calls the "Spannocchi-Doctrine" with basically means "We know we're few and can't stop you (NATO/USSR) from coming here, but if you do we will make you pay dearly".
In practice that would've meant for the bulk of the armed forces to retreat into heavily fortified positions and the mountain ranges while commando units and a few armored divisions would've stayed behind and conducted "Jagdkampf"/guerilla warfare in the flats. Think Afghanistan but with special forces, fighter jets and tanks - and due to the conscript nature of the armies a general population of dudes that learned how to ski down slopes while firing assault rifles or how to blow up not just one truck with an IED, but burry a whole convoy under an avalanche using the same amount of explosives.
Deterrence without nuclear warheads.

Here's a pic of Swiss F5's refueling/arming at a motorway gas station:
wE2Ub8G.jpg
 
C

Colonel Sponsz

Neo Member
Deadbeat said:
Jokes aside, Switzerland holds everyones laundered money so nothing will ever happen to the swiss.
Click to expand...

There's also the fact that they're completely surrounded by stable modern liberal democracies* that have shown no propensity for territorial conquest in ages.

*And semi-democratic Liechtenstein, which lacks an army, and is tiny, and was once effectively conquered by Switzerland by accident.
 
R

raindoc

Member
Midnight Phoenix said:
Thats why Russia claiming, that Boing was shut down by Ukrainian su-25?
Click to expand...

since you can shoot down an plane from the ground, you can shoot it down from 5000m too.
the question is if a SU-25 has the necessary targeting system and missiles that can master that climb...
I mean, too me it's bullshit because even if you would decide to try and blame pro-russian militias for shooting down an airliner with a SAM missile, you wouldn't use a platform that's as easy to detect and identify as a cold-war-era ground attack plane to deliver a pretty different type of missile... right?
 
C

CTLance

Member
I wonder how those SU's were shot down, during an attack run at low altitude (while continually pooping flares - unlucky!), or at greater height.
Midnight Phoenix said:
Thats why Russia claiming, that Boing was shut down by Ukrainian su-25?
Click to expand...
This still cracks me up. :D

Next up: Ukraine has developed siege technology, trying to down civilian aircraft using catapults loaded with separatist bodyparts.
 
Herbspiceguy

Herbspiceguy

Member
I just got back from work; my first day at a new location, which happened to be near Eindhoven airport.
I left at about 17:00. Fortunately I missed the first convoy (they announced blocking the main freeway: A2 with each convoy).
Every viaduct crossing the A2 freeway had people on them, waiting for the next convoy. I counted at least 13, some of them were very crowded. There were also several crowded spots next to the freeway.
Thought it was amazing and quite touching to see.

edit: found some twitter pics;
BtPeWX2CQAEm6gt.jpg
 
S

speculawyer

Member
What would people think of the USA launching HARMs at high-altitude anti-aircraft units in Eastern Ukraine?

They've proved they can't use them responsibly so they lose them.



I doubt this would happen but it seems like an option.
 
B

boi

Neo Member
Very emotional what is happening on television right now. My country is deeply saddened. You can feel the atmosphere outside is really bad.

The Dutch government did an exceptional job in reclaiming the bodies from the warzone, even while Putin is putting pressure on the region by shifting his troops around the border.

They say they want to find the ones responsible, but that will be impossible since the Netherlands as a member of the NATO will not be able to conduct any sort of intervention. This also holds true for the EU. Even if they find the ones responsible, it will be up to Putin to allow an intervention to have him captured and that will not happen. If Putin does it himself, the attackers will go to court in Russia and I don't think he will be adequately punished.
 
R

raindoc

Member
EDIT:

dailymail . co . uk/news/article-2702482/The-sad-final-journey-home-Bodies-MH17-victims-loaded-transport-plane-Ukraine-airport-begin-trip-Netherlands-painstaking-identification-process.html



i hope the mods forgive me in this case
 
T

twothunder

Member
Rivyn said:
That convoy going from the Airport to Hilversum over the A2 highway, with all the people standing there. Damn.

Tears GAF. Tears.
Click to expand...

Yeah. I've been watching it too. Such sadness...
At least the victims are finally shown some respect.
The harsh thing is. It will take months to identify the victims and some are still missing.
Many families will have to wait a long time to give their beloved a final resting place.
 
S

sangreal

Member
Sounds like the charade is over
In an interview with Reuters, Alexander Khodakovsky, commander of the Vostok Battalion, acknowledged for the first time since the airliner was brought down in eastern Ukraine on Thursday that the rebels did possess the BUK missile system.

He also indicated that the BUK may have originated in Russia and could have been sent back to remove proof of its presence.
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"I knew that a BUK came from Luhansk. At the time I was told that a BUK from Luhansk was coming under the flag of the LNR," he said, referring to the Luhansk People’s Republic, the main rebel group operating in Luhansk, one of two rebel provinces along with Donetsk, the province where the crash took place.

"That BUK I know about. I heard about it. I think they sent it back. Because I found out about it at exactly the moment that I found out that this tragedy had taken place. They probably sent it back in order to remove proof of its presence," Khodakovsky told Reuters on Tuesday.
Click to expand...

Khodakovsky said it was widely known that rebels had obtained BUKs from Ukrainian forces in the past, including three captured at a checkpoint in April and another captured near the airport in Donetsk. He said none of the BUKs captured from Ukrainian forces were operational.
Click to expand...
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014...nder-exclusive-idUSKBN0FS1V920140723?irpc=932
 
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