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Malaysia Airlines flight en route from Amsterdam shot down over Ukraine; no survivors
- Thread starter alfredofroylan
- Start date
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Sounds incredibly suspect to me and I'm wondering what kind of back room deals the Malaysian government did to secure the black boxes. For four days, the rebels held on to the black boxes and who knows what did to them during that time. The missile used was the type that exploded shrapnel around the plane which the plane would then break up and fall apart in the air. As a result there would probably be anywhere up to a minute after the missile hit where the black box still would be recording. That's evidence that while not conclusive that it was the rebels, it would eliminate many other possibilities.
Also if you read between the lines, the Malaysian government has refused to put any blame on the separatists or Russia. Just seems bizarre to me that they didn't hand over the boxes to anyone (especially with one of the separatists saying on a telephone call that the boxes were wanted by higher ups in Russia) and then they hand them over to Malaysia. So they won't hand them over to Netherlands or Australia but Malaysia is ok? I remain sceptical!
Pretty much.
They want probably wanted Malaysia's backing they weren't going to incriminate them somehow.
Nicktendo86
Member
I am really disgusted to call myself an EU citizen, the complete inaction is amazing. Seriously, what is the EU good for other than fattening the pockets of career politicians who are kicked out of national governments for being shit?
Sadly this kind of shit works (letting tangible stuff get lost over intangibles) because it works for the people that eat up propaganda on both sides. The people on Side A want the recognition to recruit for their cause, the people on Side B want none to recruit for their cause. The people that just want solutions don't care about intangible shit.
Countries exist because the people in them enforce their existence, not because other countries agree that they exist. Saying Malaysia acknowledges you exist doesn't mean much when I'm sure Malaysia isn't even involved in military actions in the area and the Ukraine wants you out no matter how many countries support you.
Nikodemos
Member
Actually, the problem is with the national governments having too much power over the EU. The EUrocrats have been asking for a common energy policy and supply diversification since at least 7 years ago, but good luck getting anything past the Germans and Italians.
Let's not pretend this wasn't your opinion before this happened. Also, what a short sighted post, but this isn't the place for such a discussion.
Can't speak for all of Australia obviously, but so far it has been just right.
michaelius
Banned
Well looks like they are smart. If they relied on EU they would get those black boxes somewhere in 2035
So you want to solve that problem by giving into even more power to EU institutions which are dominated by France and Germany ?
The only effect would be robbing smaller countries from power to stop negative for themselves consequences while EU superpowers would dictate everything as they do now.
Estonia's President just tweeted out that EU Ambassadors are meeting this morning to discuss and draft next round of Sanctions on Russia as it has utterly failed to cooperate with EU on stopping what it is doing in the Ukraine.
As usual Russian reinforcements crossed into Ukraine overnight. 3 MLRS and 5 truckloads of fighters crossed and the heavy shelling from Russia continued at Ukrainian positions near the border.
As usual Russian reinforcements crossed into Ukraine overnight. 3 MLRS and 5 truckloads of fighters crossed and the heavy shelling from Russia continued at Ukrainian positions near the border.
Holland here, but i have to say I really appreciate it how they handled it at the Ukraine airport too.
Nikodemos
Member
That could be easily fixed through a few redesigns, like number of votes, vote proportions and country-vote weights. Eliminating the idiotic requirement for consensus from all EU decision-making would be a great first step.
Unfortunately, good luck getting that past France and Germany. And UK politicians, who should be leading the charge towards a more equitable representation, are instead running the fuck away from everything EU due to UK's highly parochialist foreign policy (any politician seen actively engaging in EU discussion from any position other than "EU bad! Grrr!" is automatically seen as pro-EU). Ironically enough, the only guy who wasn't a parochialist numpty was Teflon Tony.
zomgbbqftw
Banned
Financial sanctions and export bans on German made technology for oil and gas exploration are being tabled by Britain and Germany, only France is completely unwilling to make any kind of sacrifice. Disgusting from Hollande.
My back of the fag packet calculation says the finance ban will cost the City around £4bn and the export ban will cost German industry around €2bn, but both could be higher if the sanctions go on for a prolonged time period.
Of course, nothing could happen if the British and German representatives push too hard for an arms export ban and the French decide not to play ball, but I get a sense that the two major countries will go ahead with or without the French.
My back of the fag packet calculation says the finance ban will cost the City around £4bn and the export ban will cost German industry around €2bn, but both could be higher if the sanctions go on for a prolonged time period.
Of course, nothing could happen if the British and German representatives push too hard for an arms export ban and the French decide not to play ball, but I get a sense that the two major countries will go ahead with or without the French.
Colonel Sponsz
Neo Member
This is a false belief, and one sadly all too common. The entire principle behind the EU is exactly to contain a single power that would otherwise be able to dominate its neighbours, by which I obviously mean Germany. While owing to their size, countries like Germany and France have a decisive voice in many areas of EU policy, it is certainly a far cry from the complete domination of neighbours that would be the result of no EU or a neutered EU. Without the EU, those smaller countries you speak of have no meaningful voice in anything and are bound purely by what neighbouring larger powers decide for them. Consider for instance that Germany was really only allowed to unify after it committed to further European integration, to ensure a repeat of history would and could not happen. What we have now is larger nations leading, which is democratically just and fair, versus larger nations dominating, which really isn't.
I'm from Finland and I've been saddened by a long time friend of mine spouting all sorts of inane pro-Russia stuff today. He keeps quoting this Finnish website which seems to be just a site for translated Russia Today articles and linking to other websites that you can immediately find having links to RT.
Ugh, never thought the propaganda would work here, I mean seriously, stuff like this http://www.globalresearch.ca/spanish-air-controller-kiev-borispol-airport-ukraine-military-shot-down-boeing-mh17/5391888 from a website founded by a Holocaust denier, self-proclaimed New World Order expert, and all-around conspiracy theorist is now somehow 100% believable in his eyes.
Ugh, never thought the propaganda would work here, I mean seriously, stuff like this http://www.globalresearch.ca/spanish-air-controller-kiev-borispol-airport-ukraine-military-shot-down-boeing-mh17/5391888 from a website founded by a Holocaust denier, self-proclaimed New World Order expert, and all-around conspiracy theorist is now somehow 100% believable in his eyes.
That's surprisingly more than I was expecting (practically a big nothing wrapped in nice shinny paper, like the travel ban for 20 guys).
Osiris
I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
Following Khodakovsky's denial about the Reuters interview, Reuters has unsurprisingly released the audio of his claims about knowing about the Buk:
Donetsk Rebel Commander Admits Having Buk Missiles
Donetsk Rebel Commander Admits Having Buk Missiles
I'm not sure why you expect me to respond to you after you made this ridiculous post.
The Burden of Proof is on the people making the assertion. In this case the assertion I was rsponding to was that the Russian Government had full control of the investigation site and the people who shot the plane down. If you don't understand this simple concept of Burden of Proof then there's no point talking to you about the matter. Besides a few social media pics of a missile launcher moving somewhere and "likely this and that" from the same US intelligence that gave us WMD's in Iraq there's been no further evidence presented and there's not likely to be until the investigation is over. Add to that the silly strawmen that were popping up everywhere with my name attached, my desire to post in this thread hasn't been high and remains very low. If anyone wants a reasonably moderated topic without pro Russia and pro Ukranian propanganda there are plenty to be found, especially over at the Flightradar forums.
TOP SHOTTA
Member
Is anyone besides me surprised that there is no footage of the plane coming down?
It just seems like the kind of thing that would have been caught on a dash camera or someone's phone. Maybe there's footage of it that won't see the light of day for 50 years.
It just seems like the kind of thing that would have been caught on a dash camera or someone's phone. Maybe there's footage of it that won't see the light of day for 50 years.
Veritigo_X
Member
Check out the post above yours if you want some proof.
Proof of?
Forsete
Member
The rebels might have filmed it. But I dont think they would share that right now.
As for dash cams. Isn't the front pretty close to the place of the downing? Doubtful if a lot of civilians travel around there.
gutter_trash
Banned
Russia paid in advance to have France build them warships. France said they will honor the contract and not back away.
Germany is addicted to Gazprom. Mercedes is one of the most popular car brands for Russians with money.
Italy LOL
Nikodemos
Member
"Do you even Internet brah?"
Veritigo_X
Member
Have you watched the video? One of the commanders, Aleksandr Khodakovsky, says that the Donetsk rebels had a BUK system that was moved away after the plane went down. Also that BUK systems were captured from the Ukrainian military but were not operational.
Partial Gamification
Banned
Seems like confusion between saying Russia should be implicated in the shoot-down (because they supplied the BUK to the separatists) and who actually used the BUK to shoot it down.
The burden of proof is on the accuser, there is not any evidence that I have seen that indicates Russia ordered the shoot-down or participated in it [DIRECTLY].
A separate issue is if Russia is a responsible arms supplier (if there can be such a thing). This is where the French Mistral ships come into play; is it a good idea to supply these to such an irresponsible State? The French already setup the Russian defense industry with the technology to manufacture the command and control systems for these Mistrals.
Yep, but I've always conceded it's most likely the rebels who shot down the plane and probably with Russian equipment.
| Praxis |
Banned
They seem like simple countryside folk around the crash-site, doubtful they had dash-cams in their tractors.
Yep and the same can be said of supplying arms to Israel or Middle eastern rebels. It can come back and bite later.
Partial Gamification
Banned
Indeed.
There's footage on LiveLeak of smoke soon after but im not going to link to it.
gutter_trash
Banned
The German government has rejected calls from allies of Chancellor Angela Merkel to stop Russia hosting the 2018 football World Cup over Ukraine.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28439804
so we know Germany wants nothing to change, so it being the biggest EU country, that confirms pussy status
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28439804
so we know Germany wants nothing to change, so it being the biggest EU country, that confirms pussy status
Veritigo_X
Member
My mistake. I thought you were looking for evidence that the BUK system was supplied by Russia.
Relax dude. Operation Barbarossa 2.0 is underway. Just give it time.
While EU being its usual over engineered, democratic to a fault, voting on everything until the cows come home and nobody cares anymore, self is annoying, and while the German (in)actions greatly sadden me as a German, I do think that kind of talk is veering off topic.
Anyway.
...
Do we have video footage of the Ukrainian handover ceremony?
The media is flooded with footage on the Dutch side, but all I could find on Ukraine's ceremony was that it was apparently moving and appropriate and involved the honour guard carrying the dead to the plane, and sometimes there are pictures. I would love to watch the entire thing, with subtitles or voice overs for spoken parts obviously, but the Dutch reception drowns out any relevant hits in my searches.
Anyway.
...
Do we have video footage of the Ukrainian handover ceremony?
The media is flooded with footage on the Dutch side, but all I could find on Ukraine's ceremony was that it was apparently moving and appropriate and involved the honour guard carrying the dead to the plane, and sometimes there are pictures. I would love to watch the entire thing, with subtitles or voice overs for spoken parts obviously, but the Dutch reception drowns out any relevant hits in my searches.
I've seen video on TV, but nothing on the net. There were some (Russian Orthodox?) priest there and the Dutch ambassador held a short speech. There was a small crowd.
as long as they're adding a thermal exhaust port to the russian version of the Mistral...
Well, that's certainly going to be part of several lists of Pictures of the Year for 2014.
speculawyer
Member
S¡mon;122521444 said:
I can't imagine they will be sent there without a backup plan for if/when the shit hits the fan. We've learned that lesson in Srebrenica.
edit: The Dutch Luchtmobiele Brigade (light rapid deployment troops) is on stand by: http://nos.nl/artikel/678890-militairen-mogen-niet-op-verlof.html
Ugh... Despicable.
I could release all the rage I have, partly due to this terror attack, on her, but I value my NeoGaf membership too much.
Ugh... Despicable.
These Russian separatists man...
Stuff like that is going to happen more and more while this stuff is allowed to continue.
Ukrainian Government has started to find mass graves in Slavyansk which was the former stronghold of the rebels. 400+ people have been kidnapped over the time of this war from Russia. These 400+ people are still missing which I have a terrible feeling will end up being found via the mass graves.
Ukrainian Government has started to find mass graves in Slavyansk which was the former stronghold of the rebels. 400+ people have been kidnapped over the time of this war from Russia. These 400+ people are still missing which I have a terrible feeling will end up being found via the mass graves.
Mass graves? Really? What the everloving fuck?!
Then again, considering the amount of crazy dripping off that instatwitterbook post and the shit that's been happening for the last few weeks, why am I still surprised.
The Dutch are rattling their sabres quite vehemently now, huh. Hope no random act of drunken stupidity drags the Dutch army into this. Would start to truly become a clusterfuck.
Then again, considering the amount of crazy dripping off that instatwitterbook post and the shit that's been happening for the last few weeks, why am I still surprised.
The Dutch are rattling their sabres quite vehemently now, huh. Hope no random act of drunken stupidity drags the Dutch army into this. Would start to truly become a clusterfuck.
Damn,
I can not believe the cars on the other side of the freeway are not stopping to show respect. Weird.
s_mirage
Member
It's not really weird. If the rules in the Netherlands are at all similar to the ones here in the UK, you don't ever stop on a motorway unless you are in a traffic queue or have broken down.
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