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[goodcow]

http://cbs2chicago.com/cooler/watercooler_story_255090951.html

Man Arrested After Leaving Small Tip

Sep 11, 2004 8:08 am US/Central
LAKE GEORGE, N.Y. (AP) A New York City man accused of leaving an inadequate tip at a restaurant was arrested, fingerprinted and photographed for a mug shot.

Humberto A. Taveras, 41, faces a misdemeanor charge of theft of services after he and his fellow diners argued with Soprano's Italian and American Grill managers over the legality of requiring an 18 percent tip for large parties.

"They chased us down like a bunch of criminals," Taveras said. "It killed our weekend."

Taveras and eight others had pizza at the restaurant Sunday night. He told the Glens Falls Post-Star they weren't completely satisfied with the food and left a tip of under 10 percent. Taveras said they also were not told of a mandatory 18 percent gratuity for parties of six or more and did not see notice of it on their menus.

Restaurant owner Joe Soprano said all the menus have the notice, and the waitress informed the group. He said he did not choose to pursue charges because of the money, but because Taveras' group was obnoxious.

"It's unfortunate it has come to this, but this guy was rude and abrasive. They practically threw food at us," Soprano said.

Taveras plans to fight the charge. He was issued an appearance ticket and was scheduled to appear in town court Thursday.

The arrest raises the issue of whether the gratuities that restaurants automatically tack on for serving large groups are legally enforceable debts.

Warren County Sheriff Larry Cleveland said he did not believe the issue had been litigated before in New York. He said the case could turn on whether the person is notified of the tip requirement beforehand.

"It's not a black-and-white issue," Cleveland said. "It will be very interesting to see where it goes in court."

 

[explodet]

Let the "The Sopranos" jokes......

begin.

 

[Freestyler]

That's so cah-razy. 99% of people don't even tip in my country, it's just not a done thing. Mind you, meals are a lot more expensive here so I guess it makes up for it.

 

[Scrow]

tipping is bullshit. i'm glad australia hasn't made a habit of it. employers should just pay their staff a decent wage. include the cost in the services/food, but don't assume people will pay a "voluntary" tip to cover the cost of your employees.

edit:

Mind you, meals are a lot more expensive here so I guess it makes up for it.

exchange rate would also have a bit to do with that.... but yeah, the fact that tipping isn't a done thing here also accounts for it. the unions make sure employers give their staff a proper wage.

 

[Zaptruder]

The culture of tipping... ah it's a strange one.

 

[Freestyler]

I didn't think Australia had tipping either. I'm in New Zealand and it's pretty much unheard of.

 

[Scrow]

ah, I thought you were in Australia. People only tip here if the service is five star quality stuff, and even then it's fairly rare.

 

[LusDekkar]

It's pretty stupid, aren't you suppose to give tips because you feel like it? If they force you to do it, shouldn't they just increase their prices? or at leaast charge a sitting charge or something...
Taking someone to court just because they didn't give you a tip is stupid. Maybe it's because i'm from Australia too, you only tip if you like the place, even then it still doesn't happen very often. I usually tip because i don't want to coins back... Makes way wallet chunky

 

[Diablos]

Hah. If I get bad service, the waiter/waitress/hairdresser/whomever gets a bad tip from me. That's just the way it is. If they threaten to take me to jail, I'll spit in their face!

 

[Vormund]

WTF. How can it be a tip if you have to pay it.

The whole basis of a tip is that you felt like giving extra for good service/food.

I can't remember giving someone a tip.

And I'm Aussie too.

 

[Troidal]

I recently went back to the US and I was apalled that waiters demand a certain amount for a tip. It's like, excuse me???

I mean he was talkative and being "nice" but its not like the service was fantastic, and then he demanded for a certain amount of tip, great! He's no different from the bum across the street that talks to you and pretend to be nice and actually just wants your change. Fuck that shit.

 

[Tritroid]

That is ridiculous.

I've heard of waitors confronting people after leaving the table regarding the low tip (because it's been done to me), but ARRESTING someone for a low tip?

The world has gone mad. Well, jail or no jail nothing's going to stop me from giving a shitty tip if I get shitty service, be it a party of 6 or not. This is INSANITY I tell you!

 

[Meatpuppet]

Hah. If I get bad service, the waiter/waitress/hairdresser/whomever gets a bad tip from me. That's just the way it is. If they threaten to take me to jail, I'll spit in their face!

Why the hell would you give a tip if you got bad service? The point of tipping is to reward exceptional service, and nothing else.

 

[Scoobert]

managers over the legality of requiring an 18 percent tip for large parties.

It's part of their service, it's always written down somewhere. I see nothing wrong with arresting the guy. Usually those forced tips occur when theirs a group of 15 people.

Imagine serving 15 people at one table, and getting no tip? That's why the forced tip is around. As a waiter/waitress that 15 people table is taking up 3-4 other tables you could have been covering.

I see nothing wrong, pay the tip! Especially when this waiter probably has a less than minimum wage salary.

 

[G4life98]

It's part of their service, it's always written down somewhere. I see nothing wrong with arresting the guy. Usually those forced tips occur when theirs a group of 15 people.

Imagine serving 15 people at one table, and getting no tip? That's why the forced tip is around. As a waiter/waitress that 15 people table is taking up 3-4 other tables you could have been covering.

I see nothing wrong, pay the tip! Especially when this waiter probably has a less than minimum wage salary.

really whats the difference between serving 15 people at one table or multiple tables...its still 15 people. if they dont leave a tip...get over that shit and chalk it up for a lose.

if i was that guy getting arrested, i would try and sue that fucking resuraunt into oblivion...really where the fuck do they get off.

 

[Tritroid]

It's part of their service, it's always written down somewhere. I see nothing wrong with arresting the guy. Usually those forced tips occur when theirs a group of 15 people.

Imagine serving 15 people at one table, and getting no tip? That's why the forced tip is around. As a waiter/waitress that 15 people table is taking up 3-4 other tables you could have been covering.

I see nothing wrong, pay the tip! Especially when this waiter probably has a less than minimum wage salary.

Um, no, that's complete and utter bullshit.

If there's going to be a 'mandatory' tip rule for parties of 15 or more, then that should be INCLUDED in the final total on the bill, not in incredibly small italic print at the bottom of the 5th page of the menu.

And arresting a person over a tip is going way too far, what the hell is wrong with you? It's up to the customer to decide how much they choose to tip, or if they even leave one at all. The police shouldn't have even been involved, let alone take the guy to jail.

And don't give me the "poor waitors/waitresses on minimum wage" crap, because they more than make up what they lose in pay through tips. (If they actually are worthy of tips anyway.)

 

[teiresias]

If there's going to be a 'mandatory' tip rule for parties of 15 or more, then that should be INCLUDED in the final total on the bill, not in incredibly small italic print at the bottom of the 5th page of the menu.

I was going to post this same thing. Every restaurant I've been to that has a notice in the menu or elsewhere about a compulsory tip for groups larger than 15 (or whatever number the restaurant decides) also says that it is automatically added into the bill total on the check at the end of the meal.

If it was done like this and they refused to pay the entirety of the bill I can see how there might be a legal issue, but some restaurant simply demanding some level of tip that isn't documented anywhere on the actual bill is ridiculous.

 

[Nerevar]

I think America is the only country that really has compulsory tipping.

And yeah, it's because the waiters / watresses are paid less, so the tips make up the extra salary. Most people who wait that I know love it, because they can rake in hundreds of dollars a night that is basically tax-free income (they're supposed to report it to the IRS, but no one ever does). It also is nice in that it gives you some flexibility in your bill - if you really like the server, you can tip them 20%, or if they sucked, tip only 10%. It's a pretty nice system that just takes a little getting used to.

 

[DarienA]

It's a pretty nice system that just takes a little getting used to.

Except when you're in a large party(I think it's usually 6 or more?), then it's automatically added to the bill some places also do it for smaller parties after a certain time of night.

I don't like that because it's basically saying for larger parties it doesn't matter how good or bad your service was, (which is normally what you'd use to judge how much of a tip you would leave), you have to tip at XX$.

 

[Archaix]

I hate tipping. It pisses me off. I tip if the service was better than average. Friends of mine tip "only" ten percent if the service was bad. The fuck? If the service is bad, the waiter can play a game of hide and go fuck himself, I'm not paying extra for it. And waiters do not get paid less than minimum wage. If they make few enough tips so that their hourly wage doesn't meet minimum requirements, the resturaunt has to pay them more that week. Plenty of people get minimum wage for serving (in addition to preparing) food, so the fuck can they.

 

[Nerevar]

Except when you're in a large party(I think it's usually 6 or more?), then it's automatically added to the bill some places also do it for smaller parties after a certain time of night.

I don't like that because it's basically saying for larger parties it doesn't matter how good or bad your service was, (which is normally what you'd use to judge how much of a tip you would leave), you have to tip at XX$.

you're right, that does suck. I've noticed a lot of nicer restaurants do it too, no matter how large the party is. What really irks me is when they include an 18% tip or whatever, and then when they bring you the receipt it still has a line for a tip on it. Are they trying to make you feel bad by not leaving an extra tip?


Other than that though, I like the system.

 

[xsarien]

I don't like that because it's basically saying for larger parties it doesn't matter how good or bad your service was, (which is normally what you'd use to judge how much of a tip you would leave), you have to tip at XX$.

But, as stated, you're cutting into the server's time at other tables, so if you forego the mandatory tip, you're actually costing that person money. I've seen this on menus before, it's not in "tiny type," and any reasonably intelligent waiter or waitress will add it to the bill. I've even had a few verbally announce it, as this one claims she did.

It's pretty black and white. By showing up with a large party, and being aware of the policy that large parties have a minimum tip (I don't buy for a second that this guy was unaware of it), you agree to pay it, regardless of the service. You can add more if you think it's warranted, but otherwise it's part of the bill.

Period.

(And you gain a lot of sympathy for those waiting tables when you have a few friends that have done it. It's an intensely difficult job, and unless food is actually forgotten, I leave about twice the sales tax, which, around here, makes for some nice tipping for some people who could really use the money.)

 

[Deleted member 1159]

Some of you assholes need to watch Reservoir Dogs

 

[Tritroid]

I don't like that because it's basically saying for larger parties it doesn't matter how good or bad your service was, (which is normally what you'd use to judge how much of a tip you would leave), you have to tip at XX$.

Exactly, that's the main problem with this system.

I had a waitor at a Key West in Myrtle Beach that was really bad. We told the front desk that we were a party of 6, but when we were seated, we found out one person wasn't coming, so there were only 5 of us that needed to be waited on. The guy was nice at first, but after our meal came, we didn't see him the rest of the evening until he brought us our bill about 30 minutes after we were finished. And then as we were literally out of our seat leaving, the guy comes flying past us carrying a little ice-cream thing for one of our friends who was having a birthday, so we all had to go back to the damn table after we were already out the door and wait until she finished it. Well, his timing was pretty pathetic, and since we didn't see him for the entire meal-time to refill our drinks or take discarded plates, we decided to leave him an 8 dollar tip. (The total bill was 70$, so it was just a little over 10%). We figured that's all he deserved since it wasn't a party of 6 and his service was lousy. So on the way out the second time, he stops us and says: "Do you people not understand that a common tip amount is 15%? It should be more than 8 dollars." Most of us were pretty shocked that he had actually confronted us over a tip, so we were just staring at him in disbelief, until one of my friends, who is usually hot-headed, blurts out: "You're lucky you even got that much!" And we all paraded out, as we heard one of our waitor's co-workers yell back at us: "What the hell?!"

I think now a days, waitors/waitresses have waaaay too many liberties when it comes to tipping.

 

[Incognito]

shit, i'll leave $5 for a $10 meal just because i suck at percentages. tipping doesn't bother me, as i understand what the waiters/waitresses go though, as i used to be one.

 

[Ecrofirt]

Around here, the menues say stuff like:
For parties of 8 or more, 18% gratuity is added to the bill

And I still think that's bullshit. Say I'm there with my friends, and we order some steak. Maybe that shit tastes bad, and the waitress is a wrinkly old soccer mom with sand in her vagina. There's no way in hell that they're getting an 18% tip from me.

Fuck that shit. Arrest me, you fat italian fuckers!

 

[Archaix]

So on the way out the second time, he stops us and says: "Do you people not understand that a common tip amount is 15%? It should be more than 8 dollars." Most of us were pretty shocked that he had actually confronted us over a tip, so we were just staring at him in disbelief, until one of my friends, who is usually hot-headed, blurts out: "You're lucky you even got that much!" And we all paraded out, as we heard one of our waitor's co-workers yell back at us: "What the hell?!"

You see, in that situation, I'd apologize, ask for the 8 dollars so I can give him a larger bill, and then walk out saying "Fuck off, plate monkey"

 

[xsarien]

Around here, the menues say stuff like:
For parties of 8 or more, 18% gratuity is added to the bill

And I still think that's bullshit. Say I'm there with my friends, and we order some steak. Maybe that shit tastes bad,

You'd have a point of the waiter or waitress was responsible for cooking the food.

 

[DarienA]

But, as stated, you're cutting into the server's time at other tables, so unless the mandatory large-party tip is covered, you're not actually costing that person money. I've seen this on menus before, it's not in "tiny type," and any reasonably intelligent waiter or waitress will add it to the bill. I've even had a few verbally announce it, as this one claims she did.

It's pretty black and white. By showing up with a large party, and being aware of the policy that large parties have a minimum tip (I don't buy for a second that this guy was unaware of it), you agree to pay it, regardless of the service. You can add more if you think it's warranted, but otherwise it's part of the bill.

Period.

(And you gain a lot of sympathy for those waiting tables when you have a few friends that have done it. It's an intensely difficult job, and unless food is actually forgotten, I leave about twice the sales tax, which makes for some nice tipping for some people who could really use the money.)

But you seem to have missed my point.... by forcing the tip on to the larger party your basically saying it doesn't matter what kind of service you got, you have to tip at 18%. Should their be a mandatory tip for larger parties? Maybe... should it be 18%? I don't think so. Is it verbally announced? Usually. Is it in normal print? Usually not. It usually is smaller print than the rest of the menu, and it may only be in one place. We eat out alot, and sometimes the servers announce it and sometimes they don't.

The arrest... that part is ridiculous.. and apparently the owner wasn't looking to get the person arrest just wanted to file a complaint... well how did they think the police would followup on the complaint?

 

[Tritroid]

But, as stated, you're cutting into the server's time at other tables, so if you forego the mandatory tip, you're actually costing that person money. I've seen this on menus before, it's not in "tiny type," and any reasonably intelligent waiter or waitress will add it to the bill. I've even had a few verbally announce it, as this one claims she did.

It's pretty black and white. By showing up with a large party, and being aware of the policy that large parties have a minimum tip (I don't buy for a second that this guy was unaware of it), you agree to pay it, regardless of the service. You can add more if you think it's warranted, but otherwise it's part of the bill.

Period.

(And you gain a lot of sympathy for those waiting tables when you have a few friends that have done it. It's an intensely difficult job, and unless food is actually forgotten, I leave about twice the sales tax, which, around here, makes for some nice tipping for some people who could really use the money.)

I disagree. Usually, waitors will use the forced tip rule as a means of slacking off or taking a break since they are already garuanteed a decent tip, so they don't give a shit if they serve well or not. And if they're going to act like this, then they do not deserve a good tip, at all. Mandatory or not. And no, not all menus have the exact same type of message. Yes, some are in your face, but others are really out of the way so that they can refer to it if a customer happens to glance over it by mistake. (Which is easy to do.) I do agree that the waitors should add the tip to the final total if the tip if mandatory for large parties, as there wouldn't really be much dispute over the tip amount left.

 

[Cloudy]

Hmm, I hardly ever tip cos I think it's ridiculous.... :lol

Imagine serving 15 people at one table, and getting no tip?

No different from any other stressful job not in the food service industry IMO....

 

[MrPing1000]

tips are only when the service is exceptional, inadequate or average service doesn't deserve a tip. Crazy Americans

 

[xsarien]

But you seem to have missed my point.... by forcing the tip on to the larger party your basically saying it doesn't matter what kind of service you got, you have to tip at 18%. Should their be a mandatory tip for larger parties? Maybe... should it be 18%? I don't think so. Is it verbally announced? Usually. Is it in normal print? Usually not. It usually is smaller print than the rest of the menu, and it may only be in one place. We eat out alot, and sometimes the servers announce it and sometimes they don't.

The arrest... that part is ridiculous.. and apparently the owner wasn't looking to get the person arrest just wanted to file a complaint... well how did they think the police would followup on the complaint?

No, I saw your point, I just don't agree with it.

In a group that large, you're taking up more of that server's time and stopping him/her from getting smaller, "normal" tips from other tables. The policy is in place in many restaurants to protect the employees, not to screw over customers. Think of it as a simple, "large party fee," if calling it a "tip" brings too many issues into it for you. If the service was crappy, leave just 18%, if it's good, leave an even 20%. As the customer, you have it easy, you just pick something off of the menu and eat it; the server needs to keep it all straight when the food's ready and make sure your glass remains full.

 

[DarienA]

I'm having trouble telling by this poorly written article... was the tip on the final bill and the customers just didn't pay it?

Forced tips are bullshit, that defeats the purpose of the thing being called a gratuity in the first place change the verbage!

 

[DCX]

Hah. If I get bad service, the waiter/waitress/hairdresser/whomever gets a bad tip from me. That's just the way it is. If they threaten to take me to jail, I'll spit in their face!

:lol The equivalent to knocking down a magazine rack

DCX

 

[Mama Smurf]

No, I saw your point, I just don't agree with it.

In a group that large, you're taking up more of that server's time and stopping him/her from getting smaller, "normal" tips from other tables. The policy is in place in many restaurants to protect the employees, not to screw over customers. Think of it as a simple, "large party fee," if calling it a "tip" brings too many issues into it for you. If the service was crappy, leave just 18%, if it's good, leave an even 20%. As the customer, you have it easy, you just pick something off of the menu and eat it; the server needs to keep it all straight when the food's ready and make sure your glass remains full.

You're not addressing his point. You seem to think you should tip that much even if the service was crap. If the waiter is bad, he'll be as bad at 3 smaller tables as he will be at one large.

 

[DarienA]

In a group that large, you're taking up more of that server's time and stopping him/her from getting smaller, "normal" tips from other tables. The policy is in place in many restaurants to protect the employees, not to screw over customers. Think of it as a simple, "large party fee," if calling it a "tip" brings too many issues into it for you. If the service was crappy, leave just 18%, if it's good, leave an even 20%. As the customer, you have it easy, you just pick something off of the menu and eat it; the server needs to keep it all straight when the food's ready and make sure your glass remains full.

You're still missing my point and the example I was trying to show.

Example:

Party of 6 gets poor service HAS to leave 18%.
Party of 2 gets poor service can leave whatever they want.

Why as a large party should I be forced to leave an 18% gratuity for crappy service?

 

[Phoenix]

I tip often. It also depends on whether or not I have money to tip at the time. If the service is good I will tip 15+%, if the service was bad sometimes I will leave nothing - sometimes I will leave a buck. When I was younger my cousins and I drew a tip on a piece of paper and left that for the waitress that served us because the service was terrible.

 

[xsarien]

Party of 6 gets poor service HAS to leave 18%.
Party of 2 gets poor service can leave whatever they want.

Why as a large party should I be forced to leave an 18% gratuity for crappy service?

Because, simply, you're a large party and they need to dedicate that much more time and energy to you, regardless of the service. Also, the tip should be relative. The more money you spend, the bigger the tip should be on principle. Six people ordering food can produce a large bill, there's no rational reason, even with mediocre service, that you should leave a tip that's smaller than what two people would leave.

But that's besides the point. If a restaurant has a written and oral policy of 18% tips for large parties, you agree to that once you order. If you don't want to "risk" it, walk out.

 

[DarienA]

Because, simply, you're a large party and they need to dedicate that much more time and energy to you, regardless of the service.

Holy shit nothing personal but that is a lame ass reason. So as a large party as long as I drop off your food and don't see you for the rest of the night I deserve the 18% tip? Big rolleyes on that one. We're obviously not going to agree on this one... but why is it even called a gratuity then? One of the definitions of gratuity is given without obligation... another is given as a gift, or favor. If you are forced to do it, it certainly isn't any of the above.

But that's besides the point. If a restaurant has a written and oral policy of 18% tips for large parties, you agree to that once you order. If you don't want to "risk" it, walk out.

No that's part of the point... IIRC the people who left claimed that they weren't informed. They also claim they received poor service. If you don't eat out alot you might not be aware of the tipping policy for large parties.

Is it possible they weren't informed of the enforced gratuity? Of couse, just like it's possible they were informed and are now claiming that they weren't. Just like it's possible that they didn't know about the forced large party gratuity, and just like it's possible to get shitty service when you go out to eat.

 

[Brofist]

In Japan the service in restaurants (and everywhere else for that matter) is literally 100x better than in the US, and there is no tipping at all.

 

[Ecrofirt]

I'm normally all about leaving a good tip. I understand that it's a hard job and employers don't leave much.

That being said, my usual tip is somewhere in the area of 20%. I'll go to the nearest half-dollar, so sometimes they get a bit more than 20%.

If I get bad service though, that stupid bitch waitress can fuck off.

 

[xsarien]

Holy shit nothing personal but that is a lame ass reason. So as a large party as long as I drop off your food and don't see you for the rest of the night I deserve the 18% tip? Big rolleyes on that one. We're obviously not going to agree on this one... but why is it even called a gratuity then? One of the definitions of gratuity is given without obligation... another is given as a gift, or favor. If you are forced to do it, it certainly isn't any of the above.

Well, as I said before, think of it as a poorly-defined "fee."

No that's part of the point... IIRC the people who left claimed that they weren't informed. They also claim they received poor service.

And the restaurant claimed that they were rowdy and obnoxious. In cases like this, you have to take the average of both arguments. They were probably told, promptly forgot, and were just rude to the staff.

In Japan the service in restaurants (and everywhere else for that matter) is literally 100x better than in the US, and there is no tipping at all.

The wait staff is probably paid much better than their US counterparts.

 

[Brofist]

Because, simply, you're a large party and they need to dedicate that much more time and energy to you, regardless of the service. Also, the tip should be relative. The more money you spend, the bigger the tip should be on principle. Six people ordering food can produce a large bill, there's no rational reason, even with mediocre service, that you should leave a tip that's smaller than what two people would leave.

But that's besides the point. If a restaurant has a written and oral policy of 18% tips for large parties, you agree to that once you order. If you don't want to "risk" it, walk out.

Funny thing is having been a waiter before, I always found 1 large party much less stressful than a bunch of small tables. The waiters would usually fight over the large party tables.

 

[Matlock]

I just leave $5. Unless it's a dude, then I skip the tip.

 

[Brofist]

The wait staff is probably paid much better than their US counterparts.

That's true, but it amazes me that the added incentive of making a higher wage doesn't compute with most waiters...even with tipping good service is 50/50 at best.

 

[DarienA]

And the restaurant claimed that they were rowdy and obnoxious. In cases like this, you have to take the average of both arguments. They were probably told, promptly forgot, and were just rude to the staff.

You forgot a piece of the "average".

They may have been told, they may have forgot, the food may have been bad, the service may have been poor, they may have been rude to the staff.

 

[Brofist]

I just leave $5. Unless it's a dude, then I skip the tip.

haha WOBRA

(winner of best reply award)

 

[xsarien]

You forgot a piece of the "average".

They may have been told, they may have forgot, the food may have been bad, the service may have been poor, they may have been rude to the staff.

Why punish the waitress for the food sucking?

(Also, if I were ever a waiter and had a table full of loud and obnoxious types, I'd make sure to only make the visits to the table required of me. I'm not saying that's what happened, the article doesn't say, but you know, food for thought.)

 

[Ecrofirt]

Because I tip based on my whole experience at a resturant.

I don't know if you know this or not, but food is a big part of the experience at a resturant.