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[xsarien]

Because I tip based on my whole experience at a resturant.

I don't know if you know this or not, but food is a big part of the experience at a resturant.

I tip based on service, if I have issues with the food I blame the chef, not the poor soul who brought it to me.

 

[Mercury Fred]

If you don't eat out alot you might not be aware of the tipping policy for large parties.

The guy who was arrested was from NYC according to the article. There's no way in hell he was unfamiliar with mandatory gratuities. There isn't a soul in this city that doesn't eat out on at least a semi-regular basis. Sounds to me like he was a New Yorker visiting an out of the way spot and thought he'd get one over on the local rubes.

And all of you who refuse to tip need to quit going to restaurants or be forced to wait tables for a year. Yes, the system in the states is broken but that's hardly the fault of the servers. Sheesh.

 

[DarienA]

Why punish the waitress for the food sucking?

(Also, if I were ever a waiter and had a table full of loud and obnoxious types, I'd make sure to only make the visits to the table required of me. I'm not saying that's what happened, the article doesn't say, but you know, food for thought.)

Most folks don't realize that the way to punish the restaurant for bad food is to speak to the management.

This is hilarious... you're inability to acknowledge that the service MIGHT have been bad has got me rolling on the floor. Look say it... it's possible the service was bad. It does happen. And just because you know folks who provide service doesn't mean you can't admit that other folks in other places might give bad service.

The guy who was arrested was from NYC according to the article. There's no way in hell he was unfamiliar with mandatory gratuities. There isn't a soul in this city that doesn't eat out on at least a semi-regular basis.

That's debatable having spent much time in upper Manhattan(ex-wife lives there), I know a whole lot of folks who don't eat out on a semi-regular basis... and those who do, don't always eat out in large parties.

Simply put it's possible both sides share some of the blame here.

 

[way more]

Good. Its legal to arrest bigots, why not deadbeats?

 

[Mama Smurf]

Because, simply, you're a large party and they need to dedicate that much more time and energy to you, regardless of the service. Also, the tip should be relative. The more money you spend, the bigger the tip should be on principle. Six people ordering food can produce a large bill, there's no rational reason, even with mediocre service, that you should leave a tip that's smaller than what two people would leave.

Ok, now you're just not making any sense at all. Why should the percentage change? The tip WILL be bigger even if both a table of two and a table of ten pay 15%, because they will have spent more overall.

There's no rational reason the tip should be bigger (percentage wise again). Think of it this way. One table of ten people spend $200 between them ($20 each) and tip 15% ($30). Or a small table of 2 people spend $40 (again $20 each) and also tip 15%. Sure, that tip's only $6, but that waiter will have time to do 4 other tables and make it up to the exact same tip.

So in the ideal situation, that would happen and no one would be forced to tip more than each other. However, in this case (and many others I assume), the large table is being forced to tip higher than other ones, despite the fact that if no tip was forced the waiter would get around the same amount (on average anyway) either way.

 

[xsarien]

Most folks don't realize that the way to punish the restaurant for bad food is to speak to the management.

This is hilarious... you're inability to acknowledge that the service MIGHT have been bad has got me rolling on the floor. Look say it... it's possible the service was bad. It does happen. And just because you know folks who provide service doesn't mean you can't admit that other folks in other places might give bad service.

And your inability to acknowledge that despite the service, the 18% was still required has me banging my head on two very expensive monitors.

They sat down, ordered, and ate their food, pretty much agreeing to the terms the restauarant laid out. If they "forgot," for whatever reason....Well, I wish I could use that excuse for all the extra shit Verizon tacks onto my cell phone bill, despite their lackluster service since number portability went into effect.

 

[demon]

These waitors can cut off their dicks and fuck themselves in the ass. I had jobs that were at the very least as strenuous as waiting tables, and I didn't get JACK SHIT for tips, even though it somewhat involved servicing people. And if I slacked off, I got yelled at.

I tip 10%, tops, unless there's anything special about the service.

Oh, and yes, I got minimum wage. What are these plate monkeys making, $2.50 an hour? Fuck themselves.

 

[mrmyth]

Holy shit. A thread on tipping got this far without one mention of this guy?

What are ya, a buncha savages? Man, GAF is slipping nowadays.

 

[Mama Smurf]

Or your reading skills are.

 

[DarienA]

And your inability to acknowledge that despite the service, the 18% was still required has me banging my head on two very expensive monitors.

They sat down, ordered, and ate their food, pretty much agreeing to the terms the restauarant laid out. If they "forgot," for whatever reason....Well, I wish I could use that excuse for all the extra shit Verizon tacks onto my cell phone bill, despite their lackluster service since number portability went into effect.

Not sure what you're talking about I never said that if they knew it and didn't pay it well that's ok. Then again that's what you get for using Verizon.

What I think is interesting will be that hopefully a legal precident will be set... is it lawful for restaurants to charge the gratuity for large parties? I'm not so sure it is...

 

[xsarien]

Not sure what you're talking about I never said that if they knew it and didn't pay it well that's ok. Then again that's what you get for using Verizon.

What I think is interesting will be that hopefully a legal precident will be set... is it lawful for restaurants to charge the gratuity for large parties? I'm not so sure it is...

Hey, in the northeast Verizon (usually) pwns.

And it probably is legal. There's nothing forcing people to eat there, the policy is (supposed to be) clearly marked, and repeated by the staff. Although I'd imagine after this, just to be on the safe side, they'll add a sign to the front door or something.

 

[Semjaza Azazel]

I tip based on service, if I have issues with the food I blame the chef, not the poor soul who brought it to me.

I agree.

 

[Eric-GCA]

I can't wait until we can make robots to replace waiters.

 

[DarienA]

Hey, in the northeast Verizon (usually) pwns.

And it probably is legal. There's nothing forcing people to eat there, the policy is (supposed to be) clearly marked, and repeated by the staff. Although I'd imagine after this, just to be on the safe side, they'll add a sign to the front door or something.

You know I don't think it's define anywhere... there are regulations for how employees are to report tips and therefore how organizations should reporting tips but I don't see anything that specifically says forced gratuities for large parties is or is not illegal.

Like it says in the article "The arrest raises the issue of whether the gratuities that restaurants automatically tack on for serving large groups are legally enforceable debts." I hope the outcome of this case gets reported, I'd like to see what happens.

 

[ManDudeChild]

I'd assume it's a joke article if I didn't know better. Although said by others, how is it a tip if it's manditory? What a douchebag. I hope the guy's able to sue the hell out of that restaraunt. I've been to more than a few restaraunts over the years, but the only time I've actually felt the service warranted a tip was ... well it wasn't in a restaraunt. It was Sunday night and I didn't have work on Monday, so a few of my friends and I were sitting around playing videogames (alternating between Xbox, PS2 and GC). Anyway, we get the case of the munchies (we weren't high) and I look around for a pizza place. I give them a call around 3am as they're close to closing and, although the place was a good 20 minutes away, they actually sent a guy out with the pizzas. The price of the pizza was $20 and change, but I tipped $5 to the delivery guy. He actually drove it to me in the middle of the night ... and THAT imo is service.

Just for clarification, that doesn't mean i've only tipped once. It just means I haven't been in recent years due to crappy service for the most part.

 

[SickBoy]

I tip based on service, if I have issues with the food I blame the chef, not the poor soul who brought it to me.

I generally agree, although it always kills me at tip time, because I know a lot of restaurants split their tips between kitchen and wait staff...

As for tipping in general, it annoys the hell out of me that wait staff feel entitled to a tip. I usually tip pretty generously, but stories like Tritroid's piss me off (that's the waiter who confronted them about a ~10% tip). Being a return customer to most of the places I eat out, I also wonder how a poor tip reflects future service. Moving back to a bigger city, I look forward to the opportunity to wield my awesome tip power the way it's supposed to be.

-SB

 

[EarthStormFire]

The wait staff is probably paid much better than their US counterparts.

Not true. After tip us waiters/waitress are paid more than most of the counter parts in the world. The U.S has one of the highest income rates per person, and the wait staff is no exception.

 

[BigGreenMat]

Regardless if there was a stated policy of gratuity or 'tipping' or if it was already on the bill. The fact that it is gratuity by the definition of the word within this context means they don't have to pay it. Now if they called this a mandatory surcharge or such that would be different. You can't have mandatory gratuity.

 

[mrmyth]

Or your reading skills are.

eh, did a word search on 'pink'. No hits, so I posted.

 

[Leon]

"It's unfortunate it has come to this, but this guy was rude and abrasive. They practically threw food at us," Soprano said.

Haha, talk about overreacting.

 

[Loki]

I hate tipping. It pisses me off. I tip if the service was better than average. Friends of mine tip "only" ten percent if the service was bad. The fuck? If the service is bad, the waiter can play a game of hide and go fuck himself, I'm not paying extra for it. And waiters do not get paid less than minimum wage. If they make few enough tips so that their hourly wage doesn't meet minimum requirements, the resturaunt has to pay them more that week. Plenty of people get minimum wage for serving (in addition to preparing) food, so the fuck can they.

You're mistaken (about the employer having to "make up the difference" if the waiter doesn't gross minimum wage for the week). Perhaps in your state, but in NY, there's no such law; I was a waiter for over 6 years-- I'd know.


Your analogy is somewhat spurious; if you think that working at McDonald's requires the level of knowledge (yes, you do need to know things to be a waiter at any half-decent place-- food information including the ingredients and manner of preparation, different cuts of meat from various animals, various common dishes in case people ask for off-the-menu meals, wine vintages and the differences between them, proper etiquette in terms of physically serving or removing things etc.) that working in a decent restaurant does, you're kidding yourself-- and that's not to offend anybody working in a fast-food chain; they're just different beasts entirely. And that's to say nothing of the interpersonal skills one needs to adequately perform their job as a waiter-- patience, the ability to make conversation (albeit trite oftentimes) in any circumstance, the ability to defuse heated situations between customers and management etc. At my former place of employment, the owner used to say that if she had to deal with a customer, we weren't doing our job properly; while I disagree somewhat, hopefully you see that the staff is often the sole liaison between customers and management, and is often taking shit from both sides. To put it succinctly, if you think that working at Wendy's-- even at its busiest-- is anywhere near as stressful or difficult as being a waiter at a popular (decent) restaurant, just come to NY and I'll hook you up with a job at my former place of employment; then we'll talk.


Obviously, it's not the most difficult job in the world, and much of it can be learned (one's general disposition is very important in service jobs, and is a largely innate characteristic). But to draw an analogy between waitering and fast food? That's pretty misinformed imo. I'm not talking about diners (where the waiters are usually ATROCIOUS) or places like Friday's or Outback Steakhouse (a bit better than diners in terms of service, but still no great shakes); I'm talking about a somewhat classy, moderately-priced dining establishment such as would be mentioned in Zagat's Restaurant Guide (for the NY'ers here). I'm not complaining, obviously, as the monetary rewards were great, considering; I also actually enjoyed serving others (before I became bitter and jaded through years of maltreatment ). But please don't try to suggest that the two jobs are in any way equivalent. Even neglecting all the additional knowledge (which is not a tremendous amount, but it's still something) which a waiter has to know, your average fast-food worker simply has not developed the social graces necessary to work at a decent restaurant. Can they? Sure-- but the jobs are still fundamentally different.


I also sometimes wonder where this great "anti-tipping" mentality has come from in this country. I mean, this has always been standard practice in the US, at least since the 40's. And there was never this groundswell of anti-tipping sentiment as we witness here. Either people are becoming cheaper, or people's desire to conform with social norms has abated to some extent (which is possible), or people's wages have not kept up with the times, and so even an extra $5-10 for a tip is seen as a fair amount of money to just be giving away for the sake of "tradition" (this is even more likely the case). I feel that if everyone were making the money they should be making, people would generally be less inclined to carp and cavil over whether they should leave $5 or really splurge and go for the $12 (15%). But there are genuinely cheap individuals out there, and I can tell you stories that would raise your eyebrows, believe me...


Fortunately, if one is a good waiter, there are jobs available at the better establishments in NY which pay a salary+benefits (the tip is either included on the bill, or they make it up through higher prices for the food and drink; if it's in the city, it's probably the latter-- I forget), and it is a very good living, considering that no education is required. A friend of mine works at Sparks Steakhouse in Times Square, and makes about $60-65K before taxes; another works at Peter Luger's Steakhouse and makes a similar wage, and is unionized. You also have to be a very good waiter to work at one of these places, however.



At my former place of employment, we too had a "large group" gratuity for parties over 12; it was 18%, and was stated clearly both on the menu and on a visible sign upon entrance to the restaurant. In addition, we were required to inform the customer(s) who were paying the check upon delivering it to them, so that they didn't accidentally tip twice. At the finer establishments, where a bottle of wine or champagne alone can run in excess of $500, common practice holds that customers do not have to factor such expenses into the tip-- only the food and more "common" liquor expenses. Because obviously, if a group orders 3 $400 bottles of wine, the waiter (or, more accurately, the sommelier) is not entitled to an additional $180-200 in tip just for presenting it, making some idle chit-chat about the vintage and what foods it best compliments, and then opening/pouring it. That would be insane.


Darien: the best recourse in such a situation as you describe would be to suck it up that one time, pay the bill as implicitly agreed upon, and then speak to the management regarding the service on the way out. Believe me, the waiter will not go undisciplined at any decent restaurant, even if they say that the customer was being obnoxious etc. The customer is always right, they say. If you feel that your concerns aren't adequately addressed or sympathized with by management, then by all means don't frequent that establishment in the future.


Demon:

These waitors can cut off their dicks and fuck themselves in the ass. I had jobs that were at the very least as strenuous as waiting tables, and I didn't get JACK SHIT for tips, even though it somewhat involved servicing people. And if I slacked off, I got yelled at.

I tip 10%, tops, unless there's anything special about the service.

Oh, and yes, I got minimum wage. What are these plate monkeys making, $2.50 an hour? Fuck themselves.

You're being silly. The level of "strenuousness" inherent in a job is not the sole determinant of wages. Construction work is far more strenuous than waitering, but also much less stressful-- I know, I've done both. Most other minimum wage jobs (fast-food joints, WalMart etc.) are nowhere NEAR as stressful as working in a popular (read: busy) restaurant where a certain level of service is expected; you're kidding yourself if you think they are. For the record, most waiters who work on the books make about $2.75-3.50 per hour. Those who work off the books make even less from the house per hour (usually between $1.75-2.50 per hour), though they obviously get to keep all of their tips tax-free.


Again, I've just always wondered where this virulent anti-tipping mentality arose from. Certainly, in decades past, there were many people working just as hard as Demon, for similarly paltry wages, and yet nobody (or very few) ever felt it necessary to launch a into a diatribe like the above. What is the reason for it? It has to be one of the three reasons I mentioned earlier, or perhaps just another manifestation of the general coarsening of our society over the years. Who knows...

 

[DarienA]

Darien: the best recourse in such a situation as you describe would be to suck it up that one time, pay the bill as implicitly agreed upon, and then speak to the management regarding the service on the way out. Believe me, the waiter will not go undisciplined at any decent restaurant, even if they say that the customer was being obnoxious etc. The customer is always right, they say. If you feel that your concerns aren't adequately addressed or sympathized with by management, then by all means don't frequent that establishment in the future.

Whatever if I get poor service I don't care how big the party I'm with is... you can kiss my ass in regards to the attempt to enforce a gratuity.

But unlike the person in the article my missus and I have no problem speaking to the manager at a restaurant about shitty service or food, which unfortunately more and more seems to happen too often these days.

I tip based on the service given to me by the waiter/waitress. End of story.

 

[demon]

You're being silly. The level of "strenuousness" inherent in a job is not the sole determinant of wages. Construction work is far more strenuous than waitering, but also much more stressful-- I know, I've done both. Most other minimum wage jobs (fast-food joints, WalMart etc.) are nowhere NEAR as stressful as working in a popular (read: busy) restaurant where a certain level of service is expected; you're kidding yourself if you think they are. For the record, most waiters who work on the books make about $2.75-3.50 per hour. Those who work off the books make even less from the house per hour (usually between $1.75-2.50 per hour), though they obviously get to keep all of their tips tax-free.

Isn't it illegal to pay an employee under minimum wage?

And I'm really not concerned with how stressful construction work is compared to waitering (I assume you meant to say waitering is more stressful). I've known people who waited tables. I'm aware of what the job is like. I've had a couple jobs where I had literally several bosses telling me to do things all at once, under very strenuous conditions, and in the end it was for the customers. If I had slacked off the way many waiters do, I would have been fired. So where the fuck were my tips?

The tipping system in this country is fucked up, inconsistent, and hypocritical. It's not just waiting.....why the fuck should guy who drives pizzas around town get 1-3 dollar tips from everyone he delivers to, when people with equally (or should I say 'far more') stressful jobs involving customers don't get jack shit for tips?

I really do not care WHAT the job is. The whole concept of tipping involves giving extra money for extra service. If you don't give extra service, you shouldn't get jack shit. Most people don't. So why the fuck should some pizza delivery boy or guy waiting tables expect 15-20% extra money regardless of how well they do their job?

 

[Loki]

Whatever if I get poor service I don't care how big the party I'm with is... you can kiss my ass in regards to the attempt to enforce a gratuity.

But unlike the person in the article my missus and I have no problem speaking to the manager at a restaurant about shitty service or food, which unfortunately more and more seems to happen too often these days.

I tip based on the service given to me by the waiter/waitress. End of story.

Like xsarien has been trying to explain to you, so long as it was mentioned or otherwise clearly stated prior to accepting any service, you are indeed bound to oblige; refusal to do so can be grounds for legal action, believe it or not. I once questioned the owner of the place I worked at as to the legality of the mandatory gratuity, and she said that the law states that as long as it is clearly visible, and the party involved is informed prior to receiving the restaurant's services, then it is, in fact, legal. She said that that was the law regarding it, so I'm inclined to believe that this has been put in writing somewhere.

 

[Dilbert]

The fact that it is gratuity by the definition of the word within this context means they don't have to pay it. Now if they called this a mandatory surcharge or such that would be different. You can't have mandatory gratuity.

You're arguing a semantic point, but missing the substantive point. Yes, there certainly CAN be a "mandatory gratuity" if it's printed on the menu as a condition of service. Regardless of whether or not the word OUGHT to have been something different like "surcharge" or "fee," the intent of the language is clear.

It's interesting to hear all of the discussion about tipping policies...even though it's completely irrelevant to this story. Personally, I tend to tip regardless of the quality of the service. Lord knows that when I was working my way through college by holding down a series of food-related jobs, I had my good days and bad days. I'd rather give someone the benefit of the doubt, since the whole financial system for waiters/waitresses relies on receiving tips...whether it makes sense or not.

On yet another tangent -- given that so many people have held service sector jobs at one point or another in their lives (waiter, supermarket checker or boxboy, retail clerk, fast food, etc.), I'm always disappointed and dismayed at some of the rude and insensitive behavior directed towards the current generation of those employees. Once you've had to push carts into a supermarket in boiling heat on a Fourth of July weekend, how can you in good conscience leave your cart in the middle of nowhere, rather than walking it back to a cart corral? If you've ever been annoyed at someone who wanted to ignore the menu and order something not even offered...why do it when you're on the other side of the counter? If you've ever been overwhelmed trying to juggle 3-4 customer demands at once on a sales floor, how can you bitch about the fact that the staff isn't being 100% attentive to each of your whims? I really wish people could put themselves in others' shoes more often -- ESPECIALLY when they probably HAVE filled those shoes a few short years ago.

Y'know, a radical idea just occurred to me. (It's even better than restricting voting rights!) The whole "customer is always right" thing is at the root of all of this bullshit. I think that if you want to get rid of tipping, then you should also support an increased bill, based on how much of an asshole the customer happens to be.

 

[Archaix]

Nevermind...state law does apply to tipped employees. Sorry, you get fucked for living in NY

edit: Also, Loki, you and others defending the tip being an assumed part of the bill makes me want to never tip anybody ever again. Just saying.

 

[Cauliflower of Love]

I tip no more thatn 2 dollars at ANY restaurant. There's no way in hell you will get more than 2 dollars for bringing me a plate of food and a drink. Shit, the tips are more like "I'm pretty sure you didn't spit in my food, so here a two dollar thanks".

 

[Dilbert]

edit: Also, Loki, you and others defending the tip being an assumed part of the bill makes me want to never tip anybody ever again. Just saying.

The tip being part of the bill is only true for LARGE PARTIES and is CLEARLY STATED. The side discussion about tipping practices and philosophies has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE STORY.

 

[levious]

I made like 2.20 an hour waiting tables in the mid 90's... I think it's gone up since then, when the overall minimum wage went up.

That said, most waiters suck and only bitch about certain ethnicities not tipping, bitch about having a table with kids or people who order a glass of water with a lemon, talk on and on about what degrees they're working towards, what "nicer" restaurants they used to work at... etc.

While I worked as a waiter, I just did my job as joyfully as possible and tried not to keep track of individual tips I received, only the nightly total. Any job that doesn't involve moving earth in hot weather should not be bitched about.

 

[DarienA]

Like xsarien has been trying to explain to you, so long as it was mentioned or otherwise clearly stated prior to accepting any service, you are indeed bound to oblige; refusal to do so can be grounds for legal action, believe it or not. I once questioned the owner of the place I worked at as to the legality of the mandatory gratuity, and she said that the law states that as long as it is clearly visible, and the party involved is informed prior to receiving the restaurant's services, then it is, in fact, legal. She said that that was the law regarding it, so I'm inclined to believe that this has been put in writing somewhere.

At which point in reading this thread did you get the opinion that I didn't understand what xsarien was saying? Maybe you should read his and my posts again. Our issues weren't with that part. If you DID read the posts you'd realize that disclosure wasn't my contention, but whether IF the disclosure was actually given.... we of course then discussed the font types normally used for these disclosures vs. the size of other items on the menu. Finally like the Sheriff's says I'll be interested in seeing where this goes in court... mandatory gratuity.... a bit contradictory.

 

[WasabiKing]

To the Euros and members who grew up in Asian countries, this does not apply to you since this was not instituted in your country of origin when you were growing up. This is more for the other posters and/or ingrates born in this fine country.

I really hope you all end up being a part of waitstaff when you're down on your luck and looking for work, especially in this fine economic outlook we've had in the last four years. It is then you'll learn the significance of a tip. You try making minimum wage in NYC or any large, metropolitan city trying to make or break your $800/month rent. Add annoying teenage pricks who don't think they should tip but waste your time ordering bread and soda, the young couple who brought their baby with them, who is spilling shit all over the table, the hotshot moneymaking prick who asks for everything and gives you nothing, and the ever-so-demanding customer who thinks the term fine dining is applied to the "restaurant" T.G.I. Fridays and asks for everything under the sun. Now imagine dealing with all these people at the same time, on a Saturday night when you could be out getting laid, only to fill in for someone as a favor. All while giving people the fakest smile and checking to see if everything is alright when you really want to choke the shit out of them.

Tips are the only reason why people wake up every morning to get dressed and head to work. It's the POTENTIAL to make money, just like people who are in sales. It's a rollercoaster lifestyle not for everyone, yet it is the job that everyone can get.

I only say this because I've waited tables, and my father raised a family of four making a killing off tips. Not bad for a man who left his country with nothing to come to this land of opportunity. Not too shabby, helped put two kids through college while busting his back serving people who make more money in one hour than he did in one week. Tips is a means for survival for many of these people who wait tables. And before you go and say "go get another job," for people like my father, it was the only one he could get. Waiting tables is the only job anyone without any skills and/or education can get and support themselves. So rather than sit and collect welfare, which would be more out of your paycheck, he got off his rear and worked. It is those rare instances when there are waiters working in fine dining making a killing in tips, anywhere from $60K-$100K a year, but it's .5% of all the waitstaff in the world. And my dad and I were not in that .5%.

I'm not saying be a big spender either. And definitely not tipping when you get really bad service, but if someone is doing the job right, checking in with you, making sure everything is ok, then for fuck's sakes, toss in that 15% (which is no more than $5 for a dinner for two) and call it a day/night. If you get bad service, let them know. They don't fix that problem, get a manager, and not only will they get reprimanded, but something is going to get comped and you can even request for a different server. Don't just sit there and take it, you're a sucker if you do. If it's not prepared the way you want it, let them know, they should fix it. And as someone else has stated, a lot of restaurants make wait staff split the tips with kitchen staff, bus people, and some places, bar staff. So they maybe see $1.50 out of that $5 you left them.

Waiting on large parties is a bitch, and I can see why they bill in the tip. If you're going to bust your ass on a table of 8, tab comes out to $200+ with the wine and/or booze, and then you see $5 left on the table? That fucking sucks, especially since you've busted your ass taking care of this group, while you've screwed over small tables by not giving them your full attention. So not only are you screwed out of tips from those small tables, that $5 tip from that table of 8 does not make up for it. Then couple that from your suspect bar, kitchen, and bus staff who think YOU stole their tip.

Either all you guys are really fucking spoiled or you just don't think before you type. Do yourself a favor, don't go out to eat, watch Food network and learn or save a lot of your money buying fast food and/or ramen. And I hope one day when you guys go to a casino and screw the waitresses out of tips on your free drinks, you get a nice gift.

 

[DarienA]

You know I was wondering when someone would come and run the if you worked as a waiter you'd understand line.

Excuse my language.. fuck that shit. I tip based on service... treat me well you get my full 18%+ tip... fuck up... you don't. End of story. If you take a job as waitstaff than you damn well know that a portion of your take home is based on your performance at each table.

I wish more friggin jobs had their performance based on their exact customer service performed.

 

[Nerevar]

Also of note - there is a high correlation between political party affiliation and whether or not an individual will tip. I'm pretty sure you can guess which is which.


And of course, I also believe people who don't tip are ass-holes who don't deserve wait service at all. Therefore ....

 

[xsarien]

At which point in reading this thread did you get the opinion that I didn't understand what xsarien was saying?

Except that despite it all, your stance still seems to be that despite full disclosure, you wouldn't comply, which according to the implied agreement between you and the restaurant, it becomes - technically - theft of service.

/This is what I get for doing web work for a bunch of lawyers.

 

[DarienA]

Except that despite it all, your stance still seems to be that despite full disclosure, you wouldn't comply, which according to the implied agreement between you and the restaurant, it becomes - technically - theft of service.

/This is what I get for doing web work for a bunch of lawyers.

Negative I believe we were separate on what exactly constitutes full disclosure in this case. IF the only disclosure is a small piece of verbage on the back and very bottom of a menu(which is how I've seen it at SOME establishments) in much smaller font than anything on the rest of the menu, you can bet your ass I could get a lawyer to argue and succeed on my behalf.

Now obviously if there is disclosure right on the front of the menu(which I now see many establishments do), and/or right on the receipt, then there is no argument.

/This is what I get for having a best friend who is a lawyer, and working as an admin for lawyers during my temp admin asst to get by days.

 

[ChrisReid]

Hmm, I hardly ever tip cos I think it's ridiculous.... :lol

No different from any other stressful job not in the food service industry IMO....

It's not just that. There are MANY customer service jobs where people have to work really hard doing crappy stuff for low pay, but there is no gratuity. What makes restaurants different?

 

[Nerevar]

It's not just that. There are MANY customer service jobs where people have to work really hard doing crappy stuff for low pay, but there is no gratuity. What makes restaurants different?

Because, as has been stated many times before in this thread, tips are expected to be paid to waiters and therefore they have lower wages because of it. If you don't tip a waiter / waittress, you are screwing them over in that they are losing out part of their salary. How is this so fucking hard to understand?

 

[Saint Cornelius]

As someone who has worked in the food service industry as a youngster: there's so many people in this thread who, if I had the "pleasure" of serving them, would be getting a delightful protein-enriched meal.

 

[DarienA]

As someone who has worked in the food service industry as a youngster: there's so many people in this thread who, if I had the "pleasure" of serving them, would be getting a delightful protein-enriched meal.

Great followup that's definitely going to encourage people here to tip more. GAF doesn't change anybody's opinion on any of the topics that come up here anyway.

 

[Late Stage Marxist]

Some of you assholes need to watch Reservoir Dogs

:lol "this tipping automatically, it's for the birds!"

 

[Deg]

As far as i am concerned a tip is optional. If you have no choice its not a tip.

 

[Loki]

Isn't it illegal to pay an employee under minimum wage?

No, not if they're waiters. It's totally legal (and common) for a restaurant to pay their wait staff $3.25/hour; this is because they are expected to garner a certain level of tips and subsequently declare those on their W-2's.


As for the rest of your point, well, I certainly understand your point; my point is that this is just how it is. In effect, you're trying to go against the norms of society with only a tenuous basis for doing so. If you desire to change society as a whole, then endeavor to do so-- don't just pick and choose certain areas where you decide to "make a statement", to the detriment of others' livelihoods. But I do see what you're saying-- I just don't understand why this is such a huge issue nowadays, while it never was in the past. Any ideas as to why that's the case?

On yet another tangent -- given that so many people have held service sector jobs at one point or another in their lives (waiter, supermarket checker or boxboy, retail clerk, fast food, etc.), I'm always disappointed and dismayed at some of the rude and insensitive behavior directed towards the current generation of those employees.

I couldn't agree more; as a result of having worked in such a capacity, I make it a point to both be as kind and patient as I can be with all sorts of customer-service workers, as well as generous with my tips for them where applicable.

Y'know, a radical idea just occurred to me. (It's even better than restricting voting rights!) The whole "customer is always right" thing is at the root of all of this bullshit. I think that if you want to get rid of tipping, then you should also support an increased bill, based on how much of an asshole the customer happens to be.

<assumes the voice of the mad stick-figure scientist from the Guinness Beer commercials>

"A tip based upon how much of a jerk the customer was!? Brilliant!"

Also, Loki, you and others defending the tip being an assumed part of the bill makes me want to never tip anybody ever again. Just saying.

And I'm "just saying" that I'm not arguing that it should be assumed as part of the bill so as much as I'm arguing that it is; as long as that fact is clearly stated, the customer's agreement to these terms of service is implicit upon receipt of said services. This is the reality of the situation, and it should be abided by so long as it is conforms to the legal standards which are set for it (i.e., only large groups, clearly and visibly stated prior to service etc.). Whether or not such an arrangement is proper or not is debatable, but so long as it is the law of the land, you have to abide by it imo.

Again, would you care to take a shot at explaining to me why tipping is seemingly such a huge issue NOW, whereas it wasn't for decades prior? Any help would be appreciated.

That said, most waiters suck and only bitch about certain ethnicities not tipping, bitch about having a table with kids or people who order a glass of water with a lemon, talk on and on about what degrees they're working towards, what "nicer" restaurants they used to work at... etc.

Hah, this is largely true from what I've experienced. The best were the commonly understood signs that a table was going to be a "cheap" table (i.e., low bill and, hence, low tip):


- asking for a soda without ice (fine by itself- perhaps you don't like your drinks too cold), but then asking for the ice on the side. Clearly, the customer is not-so-cleverly trying to get the maximum beverage-to-ice ratio for themselves by controlling the ice flow.


- an entire table of 6 or more people which only asks for water to drink. And not sparkling water-- no, that would actually cost money. Flat water. A co-worker of mine used to derisively call it "Guiliani Champagne" (after the mayor of NY at the time, Rudy Guiliani) among the staff. Now, a person or three ordering water is fine, and understandable, but as a waiter, you're weighing the odds that such an occurrence is merely due to chance; what are the chances, you ask yourself, of 6+ people at the same table all actually wanting nothing but water to drink? Very slim, from my experience; these people were usually the ones trying to skirt by without spending too much, as evidenced by their eventual checks; they were also the ones who tipped the worst due to said cheapness, regardless of the level of service provided (and I was a DAMN good waiter regardless of the "vibe" I got from people).


- people who attempt to split appetizers/entrees in a blatant attempt to cut costs. I had a group of women (as an aside, women are typically incredibly cheap with both ordering AND tipping, likely because they are so used to having men paying their way that they are oblivious as to common restaurant practice-- at least that's my take on it; either that or the cheapness gene is some odd sex-linked recessive one, requiring 2 copies for phenotypic expression )-- anyway, this group of women attempted to order a single chicken entree for the 4 of them. When I gently informed them that there were only 3 medallions of chicken in the entree (after all, I didn't want one of them to go hungry), one of them curtly responded that they "would wing it". The mind boggles. This was a frequent occurrence at larger tables, particularly with certain appetizers which were portioned (such as 3-4 pieces of mozzarella en corrozza to an order), yet which would be the only appetizer ordered for a table of, say, 7 or 8 people. Yes, this actually happens. Again, you weigh the odds; you ask yourself, what are the chances that only 2 or 3 people at this table are hungry enough for appetizers? More often than not, your suspicions are borne out at the end of the night.


- people who would order a bottle of beer or a single glass of wine, but ask for an extra glass so they could share it. Again, yes, this happens. And again, our suspicions were usually confirmed later on. Yes, perhaps they just couldn't handle their alcohol, but...nah. More often than not, they end up ordering a second beer, which means they could have just ordered two to begin with.



Oh man, do I have stories. But the above is all in good fun, even though it's anecdotally true. I've also had people who totally threw me off-- they exhibited several common "symptoms" of cheapness , and their check didn't amount to much, but they then threw me a huge tip. One such customer, who came in with his girlfriend, ended up spending $38 on a saturday night (for our restaurant and for the night it was, considering we had dozens of people waiting for the same table, this was very low); but he then handed me $90 and said to keep the change. Another party of four spent $95, but gave me a $105 tip. So it has its ups and downs-- I just felt like giving people a somewhat humorous glimpse into what kind of thought process goes on behind the scenes.


Also, I'd like to say that-- from my experience-- the common joke about the waiter (or chef) "spitting in your food" due to some disagreement is simply false. In my 6+ years as a waiter, I never once heard such a thing suggested, even in jest; neither had my co-workers, many of whom had worked at various establishments for many years. If somebody ever did that, it'd be pretty freaking low of them. I'd go so far as to say that such hooligans should be castrated.



EDIT: Darien, I'm not comprehension-challenged, but xsarien's post right after your last post pretty much sums up how I viewed the argument, which is why I made that post. I see what you're saying, though.

 

[SickBoy]

<assumes the voice of the mad stick-figure scientist from the Guinness Beer commercials>

"A tip based upon how much of a jerk the customer was!? Brilliant!"

So would this mean I have to pay less because I always try to show respect to the person serving me?

...of course I wouldn't (EDIT: pay less that is), unless they were a crappy server.

I'm not sure what people are saying in this thread any more though...

Is tipping something you should do always, something you should base on the service, or is it just a rip-off?

I like to think it's somewhere in between the first two.

-SB

 

[Saint Cornelius]

Great followup that's definitely going to encourage people here to tip more. GAF doesn't change anybody's opinion on any of the topics that come up here anyway.

You'd be the first one that would get my special sauce.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

There's no argument here about the ethics of tipping. I'm sure everyone in here that works as a waiter would also agree that tipping shouldn't be enforced and there should be some other method of pay.

However, the point still stands that waiters make between $2-3 dollars per hour wage, and that's not changing, so they need tips as part of their income. Stiffing someone on tips in the most stressful non-fast food indoor job available is fairly douchey, especially since you know coming in that it is customary to leave a tip.

15% or above is standard, and I do agree that you should leave less if the service sucks. However, as has been pointed out a lot, waiters are juggling five or more tables at a time, and at least a couple of those tables will be occupied by assholes, children or demanding people who won't leave a tip anyway. Also, most problems you will have will be a result of the kitchen or management not staffing enough people to work for the night, so you really should keep in mind that it's not the waiter's fault if your food sucks, and you should tip the waiter based on how hard they're working for you (which is much harder than just giving you your food and making small talk... I hate to say it because it's cliche, but you really should work a waiter job before acting like you know how easy it is).

Baraka shouldn't be stiffed just because Liu Kang made a shitty pie.

 

[Loki]

So would this mean I have to pay less because I always try to show respect to the person serving me?

Actually I was just joking with my "brilliant!" comment; -jinx-'s original proposal was, I imagine, similarly tongue-in-cheek.

 

[Drinky Crow]

I wonder if there's any correspondence between political party affiliation and tipping practice? Sure seems so here at GAF.

Anyway, my tipping rule is simple:

The service rocks: 20%. This is fairly rare -- they need to impress me with their knowledge and charm, and go beyond the call of duty.

The service is adequate: 15%. Drinks get refilled, and the waitperson simply does their job. 90% or so of my dining experiences fall in this category.

The service is surly through no fault of mine: whatever I feel appropriate. Sometimes I'll tip 15%, but in change I stick in my water glass and flip over on a napkin. I also get pissed when drinks aren't refilled regularly (based, of course, on the level of activity in the restaurant), and I'll lower a tip for that reason. Lastly, if I'm at a bar and you can't mix a simple rum and coke without skimping on the alcohol, I'll take the price of the missing alcohol out of the bartender's tip. You don't stiff a man on his liquor. EVER.

I'm eating with conservative asshole friends/family/coworkers who refuse to tip: whatever it takes to make up for their assholishness. They're always the worst customers, too. I've had to write "I'm sorry my friends are dicks. Please accept this additional tip as an apology" on more tabs than I can count.

 

[maharg]

I'd be all for raising wages and food costs at restaraunts if mandatory tipping were removed from the equation. If I knew of places that made it clear this was the case, I would probably even choose them over other restaraunts, assuming similar or better levels of service. Then my tip would actually mean something, and I wouldn't be doing the management's job in paying their employees directly.

I also think tips should be split with the cooks, if it's not in general already. If I get really good food, I have no easy way of making that obvious. But I suppose they probably get paid better.

For the record, I tip twice GST (14%) rounded up either to make the bill a clean multiple of five, or to the nearest denomination of cash I have if I'm tipping in cash, for normal level of service, and usually go up from there. I have perhaps twice in my life felt the service was worth significantly less than that, and once I didn't leave one at all, and another time it was so terribly bad, slow, and the food almost cold (and the place was empty at that) that I tipped a penny.

Oh and when feeling poor, I have ordered one entre for my wife and I (something big, like a big giant bowl of spaghetti or something) but it always meant a bigger tip -- since I could afford it -- not a smaller one, if the service was still good. If the waiter were to assume I was a cheapskate and not merely poor because of that, and didn't pay any attention to me, it would obviously become a self-fulfilling prophesy.

 

[Nerevar]

I wonder if there's any correspondence between political party affiliation and tipping practice? Sure seems so here at GAF.

Did you say that just to spite me, or did you completely miss my post? Anyways ...

I'm eating with conservative asshole friends/family/coworkers who refuse to tip: whatever it takes to make up for their assholishness. They're always the worst customers, too. I've had to write "I'm sorry my friends are dicks. Please accept this additional tip as an apology" on more tabs than I can count.

This is true, Republicans are statistically less likely to tip, as well as to tip considerably less when they do. I have my own theory as to why, but it is statistically true.

 

[Dilbert]

Actually I was just joking with my "brilliant!" comment; -jinx-'s original proposal was, I imagine, similarly tongue-in-cheek.

Only halfway. I DO feel very strongly that the whole "customer is always right" philosophy is a bunch of nonsense. Yes, the job of the service industry is to serve, but both sides in a transaction ought to have certain standards of behavior. If it's acceptable to penalize a rude or inattentive server by withholding a tip, then it damn well ought to be acceptable to penalize a rude or unreasonable patron in some way.