I agree and disagree. I don't mind the flashbacks and what they were trying to show: Clark being unsure of his place in the world, his powers, his purpose, etc.
The problem is that none of this is really developed. "Changes" in Clark's character just happen or he's told to do them or he's told what he will be. There's very little participation by Clark.
"I've been saving people all my life, except for my fake dad, who told me not to. You're telling me my purpose to save even more of them? Ok, real hologram dad."
When I saw the movie a second time the scene definitely is not dead middle. I believe the total runtime is 2hrs 37 mins. I think that scene happens right around the 1:45 min mark. The movie definitely could have used more character development but the movie doesn't have more action than your standard big-budget superhero movie
My point was I'd prefer an explanation more like that, as the current classic "Yellow star light gives you powers millions of orders of magnitude greater than the actual energy striking you" is really such an unbelievable science magic stretch. I'm taking this from some little tidbits I've read about some Superman comics and how their people worshiped Rao their sun god and had a history of star worship.
I don't know what else to say.... that's how he gets his powers. he sucks sun juice and gets strong. if you can't accept that then..... I don't know. I don't know why you can't get past that.
Listened to Battleship Pretension today and one of the hosts brought up a great point: man, Krypton seemed like a really shitty place to live.
-You have no parents
-You are bred to a single purpose with little (no?) choice
-Diplomats/government doesn't give a shit about the destruction of your planet
-You live in caves
Also, someone likened Zod to Herod. "I will find the child" and all that. I forgot about the 33 years old bit...give me a fucking break.
This movie has some of the most pointless flashbacks I've ever seen. Flashbacks are used to inform you about the current, present day story, usually in very direct ways. In Toy Story 2, when it flashes back to Jessie's life with her owner and being abandoned, it wasn't just to tell you sad story; it directly informs the audience in a big way about who Jessie is and what her motivations are. "Ah, so that's why she's still here in Al's collection!" "Oh, so that's why she was trying to sabotage Woody's escape!" This also creates a big change in Woody's entire character motivation(CHARACTER GROWTH) in that he decides to stay with Jessie and go to Japan.
In Man of Steel, they flash from that spaceship to the ship, which is cool, but pointless. Superman is already fully-developed, saving people at a moment's notice. He falls in the water and they...flash back to him being in class? What exactly is this informing? Then it's over and it doesn't directly inform in any way whatsoever when he wakes up and oooh look how sexy Henry Cavill is and finds some clothes. It's just...a thing that happens in the movie. It kinda seems like it's gonna be our way into Ma/Clark Kent's relationship, but they doesn't pan out either. Is it just to show how Zod goes through the same thing later?
Then there's Pa Kent's weird ass speech about he should have let those kids die, but at the same time he's also needs to be a good person because he's gonna be very special one day.
And then there's that REALLY fuckin' stupid scene where Pa Kent saves that dog we've never seen so the movie assumed we just give a fuck about why its so important, and Pa dies in a scene Clark could have prevented in a million ways without revealing his secret
. How does this actually impact Clark's character? His motivation? We don't see it. He's still out there saving people anyway in secret. *shrugs* It's just...why are these scenes here?
It's just laziness. They didn't want to commit to an origin story or they couldn't be arsed, so they just insert these flashbacks haphazardly through the movie that don't inform the character motivations/relationships/our understanding of them.
And that stinks because origin stories can be great, no matter how familiar you are with the material. They're a great way to show who a character is, why they are who they are, how they get from person A to person B by the end. It builds relationships, connects with these characters emotionally. Man of Steel's like "fuck that, he's some early smallville scenes or whatever, lets get on it with". So you got a main character with zero character growth(the kid living that bus in smallville is the same person fighting Zod), zero character motivation(we never see why Superman gives a fuck about humanity, never get to live out bonding and experience/emphasize his connection with humans), and you end up a with an emotionally inert actionfest.
Nevermind the fact that jumping headfirst into an oil rig to save people or trashing a rude trucker's 16-wheeler is the exact opposite of passive and aloof, how that classroom scene inform the present day scene? Why choose this storytelling choice for your film? It's not just about explaining how a character got to be who they are, but in dramatizing it, making the audience feel it.
One of the few good bits of characterization in the movie, one of the rare scenes in the naysayers say, "Ok, that was pretty good/I smiled at that" was that one scene where Superman learns to fly. He jumps around a bit very happily, stumbling, falling, and then finally FLYING around the world, with a big smile on his face. In one brief scene, they managed to dramatize how the character got to who he is(as in, not-flying to flying everywhere), we came along for that little journey, and it feels earned.
So much of Man of Steel relies on lazy shorthand and wants the audience to do all the heavy lifting for us. One of the most important questions you can ask to see if the story is working on not: "What does the protagonist want?" Brody from Jaws wants to get to rid of this big fucking shark and protect his community. Indiana Jones wants the Ark of the Covenant, Luke Skywalker wants to get the hell off this dusty-ass planet, Charles Foster Kane wants love on his own terms. These are clear motivations that drive the entire film, the audience understands these motivations, the stories clearly build and dramatize them throughout the entire show. THEY ARE THE REASON THE ENTIRE MOVIE IS HAPPENING.
What does Superman want?
Honestly? It's a little vague. I guess he wants to save humanity...but why? We don't get to see much of why he cares about them, he just...does. Lois is taped on this story and could easily be replaced with just about anybody, Perry and Jenny Olson we never get a chance to get connected to, we never get to see a lot of Clark's growing and bonding with his parents, or experience their story together. We just assume he cares a lot about Earth. And at the same time, he also really wants to find his alien family. And again, we're left to just assume the feeling over why he's doing this. Is it just because he's an alien? Is living with the Kents that shitty that he wants to know his real parents? He's so alone and alien and on the run all the time, what exactly is he connected to with the people of Earth? You can kinda-sorta make up an answer, but they never clearly dramatize his character motivations. Humanity is just...an abstraction. That's why when all that mass destruction and violence happens at the end of the third act and Perry White and those other people we don't know are struggling, you don't really care; the movie never gives a reason to care about anybody in the whole film!
To get back to the Brody Jaws example, when people think about that film, it's on the boat. But we don't get to the boat for like...over a hour? Most of the film is spent in the community, with Brody and his family, not just telling us, but showing us why he cares so much about getting rid of this shark. We get to know his wife and his son and the mayor, we feel that sense of history he has with the residents("That's some bad hat, Harry!"). That's what you get cute scenes like this that further connects us with Brody and emphasize with his plight to save his family and this community. This isn't just some abstraction of humanity, we KNOW these people, we CARE about these people! It does just make logical sense, it works emotionally, which is the whole point of drama in the first place! So when they finally go out to fight this damn shark, we not only understand Brody's conflict and motivations and how they've changed over the course of the film(he never liked going in the water, but must do so in order to kill Jaws), but we emotionally give a damn! We want to see Brody kill this mothafucker!
Man of Steel fails to properly dramatize ANYBODY, throughout the entire film, on every single level. You watch the film, you forget about most of it the next day. There's nothing to connect to emotionally besides it's pretty visuals and Superman punching things.
Pa Kent kills himself saving a dog that they left in the car after a freak tornado spawns next to them that Clark didn't even see coming. Then the tornado doesn't swallow him up until he's inside it even though it is lifting cars off the ground. Everyone else is safe under an overpass for some reason.
For my sanity I don't want to rewatch that scene ever again.
Pa Kent kills himself saving a dog that they left in the car after a freak tornado spawns next to them that Clark didn't even see coming. Then the tornado doesn't swallow him up until he's inside it even though it is lifting cars off the ground. Everyone else is safe under an overpass for some reason.
For my sanity I don't want to rewatch that scene ever again.
WE DON'T NEED SUPERMAN TO PUNCH THINGS, OR TEACH US TO OVERCOME OUR ENEMIES, OR UNLEASH THE CARNAGE OF DESTRUCTION. THOSE THINGS WE KNOW HOW TO DO JUST FINE... WE NEED SUPERMAN TO BE ABLE TO DO THOSE THINGS AND YET NOT DO THEM BECAUSE IT IS RIGHT. WE NEED A SUPERMAN THAT IS MORE DEFINED BY MUNDANE HEROISMS THAT MAKE UP OUR EVERYDAY LIVES. THE COURAGE TO GET UP AND GO TO WORK EVERY DAY. THE COURAGE TO PAY OUR BILLS ON TIME. THE COURAGE TO GIVE PEOPLE A TINY INKLING OF BUREAUCRATIC KINDNESS. THE COURAGE TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR OTHER HUMAN BEINGS. THE COURAGE TO DO THE HARD THING, WHEN THE EASIER OPTION IS AVAILABLE. THE COURAGE TO BE PEOPLE WHO TELL THE TRUTH WHEN IT IS EASIER TO LIE. THE COURAGE TO BE PEOPLE WHO GIVE WHEN IT IS PREFERABLE TO KEEP FOR OUR OWN. THE COURAGE TO BE OPEN TO GROWTH AND HUMILITY IN THE FACE OF US NOT BEING "BADASS" ENOUGH. THAT'S REAL COURAGE, WHEREAS NOTIONS OF REVENGE AND ANIMOSITY ARE OF LITTLE VALUE IN OUR EVERY DAY LIVES. AND THESE THINGS ARE REAL... THEY ARE MUNDANE... THEY ARE WITHIN OUR GRASP, BUT THEY NEED THAT INSPIRATION MORE THAN ANYTHING TO MAKE THEM REAL. WE NEED A SUPERMAN TO SHOW US WHY THESE THINGS MATTER.
WE NEED A SUPERMAN TO SHOW US WHY WE SHOULDN'T PUNCH THINGS.
is straight up nuts. He wants Jesus, which explains why he likes Superman Returns. Man of Steel pays some lip service to Jesus (and Moses and Noah). Returns straight up says "This guy IS Jesus".
the second half was all action and was basically Dragonball Z lol.
Overall I enjoyed it,
small spoilers
Zod was ok but his Henchgirl was a goddam beast.
Also a lot of people died like Gs...except Jor-Al...he died like a bitch.
I can see why some won't like it. It is very disjointed. First half feels rushed and yet the second feels too long (but it was awesome so who cares). Also Supes was too dry
ideological flexibility that was bred out of Zod... the man considered natural birth a heresy which prevented him from restarting the Kryptonian race with his crew members. If unable to accept even that change, I don't think super powers factor into the vision of Krypton that resides in his blood.
is straight up nuts. He wants Jesus, which explains why he likes Superman Returns. Man of Steel pays some lip service to Jesus (and Moses and Noah). Returns straight up says "This guy IS Jesus".
I haven't seen Superman Returns, but if lip service is a reverse immaculate conception'd 33 year old bearded man wandering the earth helping people, being touched by stained glass Jesus, and floating in crucified poses, I can't even imagine what they did in Returns.
Honestly the movie doesn't even have that much action. The last act of Avengers is about 40 minutes of just straight action and nobody complained. Man of Steel is about half that. I think people overstate the amount of action because of just how overwhelming the action is when it comes at the end.
WE DON'T NEED SUPERMAN TO PUNCH THINGS, OR TEACH US TO OVERCOME OUR ENEMIES, OR UNLEASH THE CARNAGE OF DESTRUCTION. THOSE THINGS WE KNOW HOW TO DO JUST FINE... WE NEED SUPERMAN TO BE ABLE TO DO THOSE THINGS AND YET NOT DO THEM BECAUSE IT IS RIGHT. WE NEED A SUPERMAN THAT IS MORE DEFINED BY MUNDANE HEROISMS THAT MAKE UP OUR EVERYDAY LIVES. THE COURAGE TO GET UP AND GO TO WORK EVERY DAY. THE COURAGE TO PAY OUR BILLS ON TIME. THE COURAGE TO GIVE PEOPLE A TINY INKLING OF BUREAUCRATIC KINDNESS. THE COURAGE TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR OTHER HUMAN BEINGS. THE COURAGE TO DO THE HARD THING, WHEN THE EASIER OPTION IS AVAILABLE. THE COURAGE TO BE PEOPLE WHO TELL THE TRUTH WHEN IT IS EASIER TO LIE. THE COURAGE TO BE PEOPLE WHO GIVE WHEN IT IS PREFERABLE TO KEEP FOR OUR OWN. THE COURAGE TO BE OPEN TO GROWTH AND HUMILITY IN THE FACE OF US NOT BEING "BADASS" ENOUGH. THAT'S REAL COURAGE, WHEREAS NOTIONS OF REVENGE AND ANIMOSITY ARE OF LITTLE VALUE IN OUR EVERY DAY LIVES. AND THESE THINGS ARE REAL... THEY ARE MUNDANE... THEY ARE WITHIN OUR GRASP, BUT THEY NEED THAT INSPIRATION MORE THAN ANYTHING TO MAKE THEM REAL. WE NEED A SUPERMAN TO SHOW US WHY THESE THINGS MATTER.
WE NEED A SUPERMAN TO SHOW US WHY WE SHOULDN'T PUNCH THINGS.
Andrewcutter, quite possibly one of the biggest DC Comics and Superman fan, thought that Man of Steel was the best super hero movie he has ever seen. Listen to his review here, thought he brought some good points.
I haven't seen Superman Returns, but if lip service is a reverse immaculate conception'd 33 year old bearded man wandering the earth helping people, being touched by stained glass Jesus, and floating in crucified poses, I can't even imagine what they did in Returns.
Besides being there to be rescued by Superman on two occasions (from falling crashing to earth and from falling from the plane). She really didn't need to be in that plane to activate the thing.
In Man of Steel, they flash from that spaceship to the ship, which is cool, but pointless. Superman is already fully-developed, saving people at a moment's notice. He falls in the water and they...flash back to him being in class? What exactly is this informing?
As you suspected half the reason is to setup the difficulties of being a Kryptonian. The other half is to present how far back Clark has had a need to discover himself and why he is a vagabond in present day.
Then there's Pa Kent's weird ass speech about he should have let those kids die, but at the same time he's also needs to be a good person because he's gonna be very special one day.
And then there's that REALLY fuckin' stupid scene where Pa Kent saves that dog we've never seen so the movie assumed we just give a fuck about why its so important, and Pa dies in a scene Clark could have prevented in a million ways without revealing his secret
. How does this actually impact Clark's character? His motivation? We don't see it. He's still out there saving people anyway in secret. *shrugs* It's just...why are these scenes here?
Pa Kent doesn't assume Clark will be a good person for the world.
When he is giving advice every single time he talks about how Clark can be either good or bad.
His greatest concern the safety of his son and his ability to still be a part of the greater society instead of ostracized. He was an advocate for secrecy while Jor El is supposed to represent the other choice of having a direct impact on people and setting an example.
The fact that even after he has been outed by Zod his concern was whether or not he can trust humanity even at that point he was strongly following his adopted father's advice.
So you got a main character with zero character growth(the kid living that bus in smallville is the same person fighting Zod),
Yes during their first fight. No during their second and third. In between that time Clark acknowledged that he has come across a threat that could not only harm but kill him. He also had to rapidly make up his mind about how much he had to preserve the legacy of his biological parents. He also took a leap of faith and trusted humanity's ability to team up with him to deal with problems they share.
zero character motivation(we never see why Superman gives a fuck about humanity, never get to live out bonding and experience/emphasize his connection with humans), and you end up a with an emotionally inert actionfest.
A good upbringing isn't good enough for you? I know what you are craving for but wasn't something that needed to be seen on screen. There were pressing matters like why they even bothered to focus so much on Perry and the two reporters nearly dying.
They obviously were going for an emotional punch and point about them standing by each other. It's probably supposed to be a reflection on how Superman can't be everywhere at once and how people can stand by each other but aside from Pa Kent none of the scenes properly explore this thought process enough to make a very strong connection with that scene.
her and Superman interacting and Zod decided it'd be smartest to have a bargaining chip/hostage of sorts, plus it couldn't hurt to have a human specimen on board and Lois might know something about Kal that Zod could use against him..
They don't even know her name- Faora just points to her and asks for Lois.
her and Superman interacting and Zod decided it'd be smartest to have a bargaining chip/hostage of sorts, plus it couldn't hurt to have a human specimen on board and Lois might know something about Kal that Zod could use against him..
They don't even know her name- Faora just points to her and asks for Lois.
Would a movie with deep characters and awesome action be amazing? Absolutely. But if Nolan fails after four attempts, I'll take awesome action over awesome character developmet for a super hero movie every single time.
Would a movie with deep characters and awesome action be amazing? Absolutely. But if Nolan fails after four attempts, I'll take awesome action over awesome character developmet for a super hero movie every single time.
did you see the scene where Perry tells Lois that everyone is wondering why you are not running the story
Did you see the scene where the reporter on TV is saying publicly that people know Lois knows who Superman is
Did you see the scene where FBI come looking for Lois because they know publicly that Lois knows who Superman is
Did you see the scene where Lois tells Superman that Zods crew did something to her to try and get information and Superman tells lois, Zod tried to do it to him too (dreams sequence)
did you see the scene where Perry tells Lois that everyone is wondering why you are not running the story
Did you see the scene where the reporter on TV is saying publicly that people know Lois knows who Superman is
Did you see the scene where FBI come looking for Lois because they know publicly that Lois knows who Superman is
Did you see the scene where Lois tells Superman that Zods crew did something to her to try and get information and Superman tells lois, Zod tried to do it to him too (dreams sequence)
Yes I did. I edited, like I said, that scene is not a big deal with me and doesn't feel as pointless. It's the later scene that where's she's really pointless.
And even then, with all that, both felt forced and didn't flow well.
She's just there so they can have those saving Lois scenes.
Spiderman 2 is an excellent example of doing the character/action balance right. The Dark Knight, First Class, Hulk, and arguably the first Iron Man too.
Man of Steel has problems, but I still enjoyed it. I just don't feel I saw Superman acting like Superman in the film enough, and I really hope he steps his game up in the sequel.
were able to find Pa Kent's body when he was blown away by the tornado. They still showed a fucking grave. I simply couldnt bear it and had to walk out of the theatre.
were able to find Pa Kent's body when he was blown away by the tornado. They still showed a fucking grave. I simply couldnt bear it and had to walk out of the theatre.
were able to find Pa Kent's body when he was blown away by the tornado. They still showed a fucking grave. I simply couldnt bear it and had to walk out of the theatre.
You do know that people are often buried with empty caskets, right? It gives the family a central place to go and spend time with their loved one, even if there's nothing there.
