It's a very Jewish response. I imagine my girlfriend's answer would be similar if she had to be as succinct as a CEO of a major corporation. Most of the Jewish people I know aren't as gung-ho about having to wear their religion on their sleeve as the christian people I know. (I don't mean this in a negative way, just a cultural difference).
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Mark Zuckerberg Says He's No Longer An Atheist, Believes "Religion Is Very Important"
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It's a very Jewish response. I imagine my girlfriend's answer would be similar if she had to be as succinct as a CEO of a major corporation. Most of the Jewish people I know aren't as gung-ho about having to wear their religion on their sleeve as the christian people I know. (I don't mean this in a negative way, just a cultural difference).
Oh God Why
Banned
I just looked up his networth, and it's 55.3 BILLION DOLLARS!!! Is he going to worship himself as his own god?
More Fun To Compute
Member
Perhaps hoarding all that wealth the deity he is worshipping is Moloch it certainly isn't Christ.
rokkerkory
Member
Id prob root for him to run!
HiredN00bs
Member
Insightful post.
It really shouldn't make a difference what he believes in as long as he is not infringing upon the beliefs of others.
That being said, it's far greater for publicity in America to at least act like you follow some sort of religion. The word 'atheism' still terrifies and angers a large part of the population here.
That being said, it's far greater for publicity in America to at least act like you follow some sort of religion. The word 'atheism' still terrifies and angers a large part of the population here.
Dude Abides
Banned
The only thing Mark Zuckerberg thinks is important is Mark Zuckerberg's net worth.
I don't see how posts like this aren't considered elitist and offensive.
Personally I'm an atheist, but how is this not offensive to the vast majority who are? Especially those who take it very seriously?
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This as well. So anybody who doesn't share your view is insane?
Who gives a shit? As an atheist, I could be offended by a lot of posts in this thread, too. If someone is that insecure about their world views they should just stop reading stuff on the internet.
Hey_Blinkin
Member
Good for him. I'm sometimes envious of people who believe in a higher power. I'd love to believe everyone has a purpose and everything happens for a reason. Maybe it would relieve some of the stress of realizing I'm the only one who controls my destiny. No one is coming to save me.
I believe him because I went through a similar thing with religion. When I was younger I started moving away from it and thought it was to blame for the majority of the worlds problems. But I've slowly come to realize the importance of religion. It can really be a wonderful thing and gives you a sense of being part of something bigger. Sadly just like anything else it can be used as an excuse for violence and destruction as well. That's why it should never be enforced and always voluntary.
Alright cool thenso can we just be bigoted then?
Edit- and what posts specifically insult atheists?
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
I'm not really sure who you are responding to, but I'm fairly confident you're not responding to me.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Did you miss how we don't see the light and are equivocal to arrogance?
I didn't scan the thread so if you wanna link me to those go for it. If atheists were called arrogant in this thread we've earned it with comments like "someday he'll be sane again" or "hopefully I don't go backwards", which is pretty clearly worse than calling somebody arrogant.
I try not to fall into the "angry atheist" attitude, but I think people have to consider the typical experience atheists have to deal with. Many atheists are in families that are religious and their atheist attitude is often not looked at fondly. It is easy to become resentful of how not believing in supernatural things can make you the strange thinker among your family. It gets annoying how you constantly have to coddle and placate people about religious views. Basically, you typically feel like your views can be condemned and argued against as aggressively as possible, but any criticism toward religion is met with complete incredulousness. I remember my family telling me that my views mean I am doomed to suffer in Hell if I continue and I said I think they might be wasting a bit of their Sunday and they found my comment to be the disgraceful one.
I'm not saying that every religious person is like this, but many atheists that are open about their views will run into religious people like that. It's what makes a lot of people jaded about religion.
I'm not saying that every religious person is like this, but many atheists that are open about their views will run into religious people like that. It's what makes a lot of people jaded about religion.
Most atheists don't claim to know god doesn't exist. They just don't believe he exists.
While I can empathize with your point, I think given the nature of this board, some posters could have a little more tact. I've been on this board for a while and it's definitely gotten better (religious discussion was really bad in the past), but if we want discussions regarding religion to be fruitful, saying stuff like "One day they'll be sane again" or the like shouldn't really be acceptable. There's a difference between honest criticism of the tenets of a belief system and calling somebody crazy for believing differently than you.
Phoenix RISING
Banned
I'll consider his shift from "there is no God" to "I am open to the possibility of God" a win.
spiderman123
Member
As an atheist, I say good for him. If that is the conclusion he has arrived too then its fine by me.
Melkezadek
Member
Likewise, it would be appreciated if believers used more tact in how they talk to people as if their views are true, and we're the blind ones. It's incredibly condescending to have people say "Good, he's seen the light" as if non-believers are running around in darkness. I understand that the implication probably isn't intentionally, but it is implied.
A win for who and why?
I've responded to your quotes below. I think there's some leeway between making a comment like "I don't buy it, he's being political" to "Good for him for discovering his spirituality". I can agree that believers can do to have more tact, (that's not something related solely to a belief system, most users on this board can do to have more tact tbh), but I don't really follow your example of seeing the light, if only because it being able to be used as a jab, can also simply be an earnest message of good will, a generic saying relating to conversions, and/or a comment made in satire.
- The first two are in response to a comment "I hope I never move backwards like that.
Not sure I buy this though." Their reactions seem warranted to the statement they're replying to.
- The third quote was made after 50+ messages. A lot being baffled that someone would change their belief system.
- The fourth comment was made in relation to "This is the first I've heard of an Atheist turning religious. Doesn't make much sense, but then again being filthy rich all of a sudden does weird things to peoples minds." seems like an appropriate response.
- The fifth comment is a generalization on new atheists that place a philosophy of scientific materialism and supernatural deniability at the forefront of their world view. Of course not all atheists fit this view, but there's a good chance if you transitioned into an atheist within the past 15 years, this suits your worldview. It's basically the position of the four horseman (dawkins, dennet, harris, hitchens)
-The sixth comment is a read on the unpopularity of the current atheist movement (something that many current atheists are in agreement with, some even in this thread). The other half shouldn't have been said. This is probably the first comment you quoted where there's issues
-The seventh comment is a bad comment and the second one with issues.
2 out of the 7 comments you quoted don't seem like an issue to me. What exactly are you seeing in them that would suggest the poster said something wrong?
EDIT: If you're also going to count this, you should count the smarmy anti religious comments as well. But the issue shouldn't be about who is the most annoying, the issue is that many religious threads breakdown into name calling
More Fun To Compute
Member
What's worse a humourless atheist or an arrogant atheist. No matter what they got you over a barrel son cos you are different.
BladeoftheImmortal
Member
I'm atheist and celebrate christmas? it is a secular holiday after all.
That's my question. I mean let's assume he believes in a God, but not your God. Let's say he becomes Muslim or maybe Hindu or another. Is that good? Why? Is he going to the same after life as you? Is he not capable or morality if he does not believe in a supernatural being dictating his life and death?
It's amusing to me in my own experiences that people I have met have such a harsh reaction when I say I am not religious but don't bat an eyelash when somebody says they believe in another religion. Doesn't it amount to the same thing when it comes down to it? Both being wrong?
I consider myself spiritual, not religious or atheist myself.
All of those posts say the same thing. Atheists are arrogant, not for their beliefs, but for how they portray theirs as superior. Hell multiple of what you linked are parodying atheist responses, just turning the tables.
Muppet of a Man
Member
Religions are ideologies. Ideologies are not protected from criticism. A lack of an ideology is not an ideology. Is the natural state of a child (i.e., adherent to no religious ideology) an ideology? Atheism is the default natural state of humanity. We are indoctrinated into religious ideologies.
Megalosaro
Banned
I am an atheist that celebrates Christmas.
Muppet of a Man
Member
You take part in a cultural tradition without believing in the dogma behind it, and that is fine, especially since Christian dogma isn't the only dogma behind Christmas. European pagans are really responsible for the holiday of Christmas that we take part in today.
And the underpinning of the celebration is in the natural cycling of the seasons and the waning then waxing light patterns that accompany them (i.e., winter solstice).
Cameron122
Member
the religion of banning the fire bird
Megalosaro
Banned
Yup.
I also don't think religion is at fault for a lot of the worlds problems. Even stuff like the crusades wasnt, at its core, really that religious.
I agree that posts like the example you gave are just rude. I don't think it will be possible for people to have productive religious conversations as long as the religious expect to be talked to with kids gloves. From my experience, this is when things go south when both sides are being respectful. Eventually, the religious person becomes personally insulted by the candid criticisms of an atheist and it starts to go bad. I agree that both sides make insulting arguments at times. But I think it is unique that the religous side tends to take offense when both sides are being productive. I think it is primarily because the religious person is going to have more personal investment in what is being discussed. It is easy for me to list all of the reasons I think Christianity is an absurd ideology to follow, but a Christian will likely take offense to me arguing against what may be the most important thing in their life to them. But if they do the same to me, I don't have a lot of stakes in it because being an atheist isn't really important to me.
How often do you openly criticize ideologies, because again I'm an atheist and I take issue with a lot of teachings, but just curious to see how open you are about it.
This isnt what he's saying, though. People are trying to run too far with his comments. Only thing he says is that he's not atheist and that he was raised jewish.
I'd say it fits pretty well relative to how much other ideologies affect our lives. I have a lot I could say against nihilism, but it's not like it crops up in my life very much.
Muppet of a Man
Member
I openly criticize ideologies all the time in person, as well as on the internet. My parents', my friends', and those of people I do not like. I try to engage in civil discourse, but I will not be put off of criticizing things just because people may take offense.
If I'd characterize myself as anything, I'd say I'm both a defacto atheist and an ignostic (yes, with an "i", not an "a"). And that's me trying to characterize myself from the shoes of a 3rd party observer. I don't identify with labels personally because I find them very limiting. I try to let my understanding of the world evolve as I am exposed to more information.
I think given the nature of the board, religious people willing to talk about their beliefs are probably fine with certain criticisms, because there's a fine line between a critique on the nature of God vs. hostile commentary (which may or may not be laced with good, constructive criticism). I think it's important to not assume how anyone person will react in these conversations until the points are actually being put forth, but it's hard to do that when a thread starts off with atheists speaking down of the premise. A lot of the comnts weren't candid criticisms, they were just rude and argumentative. Why should anyone feel the need to respond in kind to someone whose immediate response to their perspective is to be dismissive and say "They'll come around"?
I get what you're saying, but on this board at least, due to there being far more atheists and agnostics, the burden is on them to make the discussions hospitable. There have been a lot of posters over the years who simply don't want to engage anymore because the first page of this thread is how every single thread usually starts off.
BladeoftheImmortal
Member
it's religious that espouse having it all figured out.
This is basically what I'm asking I just don't see religious people often being assholes about it. If anything the only thing I say said is arrogance and it's in response to elitism.
I'm pretty sure what he's saying is that because the ratio is so imbalances, there are significantly more atheists on this board that are flat out assholes instead of fostering a discussion.
This combined with an already much smaller amount of theists can easily kill and actual discussion because who wants to try to have a discussion with people openly mocking you.
It's easy to make a reactionary comment instead of trying to understand the context I wrote that response to. But seeing as how you seem to lack the reading comprehension, let me say in plain words: If users on this board want better conversations dealing with religion, everyone has to come to the table willing to not be a douchebag. That goes for snide remarks, drive-by posts, reactionary and emotional comments and so on. Due to the board largely being made of atheists and agnostics, there is a higher probability of them to start a religious conversation in a rough way (as has been shown in this thread), so they have a larger burden to make the conversation smooth (and if the board was filled with more theists, it would be their burden). This doesn't mean that honest, earnest and spirited criticism is unacceptable, but there should be tact between the parties given that 1. one of the reasons this board is different from others is due to the heavy moderation and qualifications for posting on this board and 2. there's more to gain from a quality discussion with people who don't believe as you do so you can expand your sphere of knowledge.
So in short: No. Duh
Dr. Feel Good
Banned
His contract with Facebook was recently changed to allow for him to pursue political office. He's absolutely considering a presidency run.
Johnny Cage In The Shower
Member
How the heck did you get that from a well thought out, thorough and very true and observant explanation of why it's a fool's errand to have any kind of constructive discussion/debate on religion on GAF?
by the way good for Mark.
Stevetopsy
Member
Whether a person feels religion is important or not says absolutely nothing about whether the claims are actually true or not. Some people go through all the motions and secretly disbelieve or some may be open about not believing but still enjoy the culture and traditions that come with a religion. You can't choose what you believe tho. Religious claims are either true or they're not, and it's either important to you to believe true things or it's not. Noah's Ark doesn't suddenly seem airtight just because you come to feel that religion as a whole may have an important role to play in society.
I said this in reference to an atheist who is so convinced that his side is correct that he does not acknowledge that anyone has ever gone from atheist to having faith. Quite a few atheists espouse having it all figured out as well.
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