Mercury Fred
Banned
mclaren777 is a human male, no? I may be mistaken on this so correct me if I'm wrong.
Mars Hill Church Real Marriage Series
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mclaren777 is a human male, no? I may be mistaken on this so correct me if I'm wrong.
mclaren777
Member
Richard Dawkins called the pope a nazi, but I don't think that means you can automatically discredit everything he says. "Soundbiting" isn't helpful and it only makes the accompanying argument appear less sound.
Dude Abides
Banned
It's like if Pat Robertson wore Ed Hardy t-shirts.
Mercury Fred
Banned
So, do you think masturbating is gay?
*edit* And to be fair, the pope is kind of a nazi.
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
If two people are fine with holding to complementarian philosophy I don't see a reason to discourage them. The philosophy is truly reflective of its name, and the practice of designating differing responsibilities and attributes to either gender in order to create a system of serving one another has been in cultures worldwide for all of history. The notion of roles won't suit everyone, but if two people find that conformity to a mold is personally preferable, why bother them?
Granted, who has what characteristics and how they end up complimenting each other need not have restrictions, and they could very well be different for each couple rather than determined according to something so wide as gender, but the notion of intentionally guiding your behavior to work well as a team has its share of benefits and need not be discouraged if it pleases both.
Granted, who has what characteristics and how they end up complimenting each other need not have restrictions, and they could very well be different for each couple rather than determined according to something so wide as gender, but the notion of intentionally guiding your behavior to work well as a team has its share of benefits and need not be discouraged if it pleases both.
that's because you're not a homophobic male chauvinist.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Oh, I don't have a problem with what two adults choose to do in their own marriage, but my concern is when such ideology is spread to the children, thereby enabling an idea that somehow women are less than men. That women aren't cut out for certain roles that their male counterparts are. That women should just accept their place in the scheme of things. It limits the potential of the children.
Doesn't mean anything. And just an FYI, when I was in my very conservative days, I went more than 6 months without masturbating because I accepted the notion that it was evil. Many men go longer than that.
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
That's a matter of education. I don't see how it's any different from a couple who like going along with heteronormative characteristics for themselves. They were given to them by society, and they prefer it. There would be no reason to say "No, you must act more androgynous than you want! Think of the children!" because that would in fact be hypocritical concerning the principles of respecting freedom that are behind such a concern.
Plenty of children will model after their parents, and plenty will deviate from them. Having open communication and respect for personal freedom and the dignity of others' preferences is the key. Clearly, it's difficult to communicate the concepts of mommy & daddy's personal convictions vs objective respect for others' right to live as they wish, but I think by time they are teenagers they'll be more than fine with accepting the reality that not everyone has to be like mom & dad.
If it wasn't obvious thus far, I will clarify that I have issues with indoctrination and disciplining or even just expressing disappointment in a child for simply disagreeing or deviating from personal preferences that have no ethical impact.
:lol, this is an amusing mental image.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
I am all for respecting freedom and not forcing somebody to believe or disbelieve just for the sake of society as a whole, SO AS LONG as the ideology being held isn't used to limit equality within society. if the evangelical community was a minority in this country then it wouldn't be much of a concern to me but the evangelicals form policy that affects every single person in this country. Look at gay marriage, abortion, our text books. The individuals who help create laws use their ideology to form said laws and if said ideology favors one gender, one religion, one group over another than it shouldn't be allowed.
mclaren777
Member
No, nor does Mark Driscoll. He will talk about his position on that issue in a couple weeks (I've looked ahead in the book).
mclaren777
Member
The last two sermons have been the most challenging ones yet. A lot of bitterness has been uncovered in my heart and by God's grace it's now being dealt with.
Week 5 focused on how we deal with sin. Excerpt
Week 6 focused on how people view sex. Excerpt
You can download audio and video versions of both sermons at the links below.
Week 5 focused on how we deal with sin. Excerpt
Week 6 focused on how people view sex. Excerpt
You can download audio and video versions of both sermons at the links below.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Has he responded to this issue yet?
mclaren777
Member
He hasn't addressed it in this series yet, but it will probably come up during the "Can we _____?" sermon.
Otherwise, here's an old sermon from 2008 – skip ahead to the 2-minute mark
Edit: I'm guessing it's exceedingly rare to hear a pastor use the word clitoris during a sermon.
nVidiot_Whore
Banned
Are you in Seattle?
I'll be respectful.. but not a fan of Mars Hill.
I'll be respectful.. but not a fan of Mars Hill.
so you dispute the quotes that were posted?
mclaren777
Member
Can you be more specific?
Edit: If you're talking about this statement, I can definitely see the logic...
"Masturbation can be a form of homosexuality... if he's watching himself in a mirror and being turned on by his own male body."
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
I could only concur if he was talking about auto-fellatio, having anal sex with your own penis, or a time machine hand job. But I think all of those things are pretty impressive.
eudaemonic
Member
I watched a couple minutes of some of the clips and I couldn't help but to be amused how some people have no problem being told how to live their life as long as you tell them God says so (and point to a sentence in book that holds no proof it was untouched by man's desire to control other men).
Otherwise, I don't think masturbation is a form of homosexuality but if you're getting off staring at yourself... you probably have an extreme case of narcissism. Trying to twist it "into a sin" is just silly - but he's got a company to run and making sure people feel guilty all the time is good for business.
Otherwise, I don't think masturbation is a form of homosexuality but if you're getting off staring at yourself... you probably have an extreme case of narcissism. Trying to twist it "into a sin" is just silly - but he's got a company to run and making sure people feel guilty all the time is good for business.
nVidiot_Whore
Banned
If you are a male turned on by male bodies you are a homosexual whether or not you masturbate to it.
The lack of logic is the assumption that somehow not masturbating makes you not a homosexual.
Mars Hill sort of kills me.. "We talk kind of edgy and do movie reviews of Hollywood Films.. we are edgy man!!" Oh.. but the same old backwards highly conservative archaic thoughts on just about everything.
Like this:
I truly mean no offense.. but it all seems so childish.
"OMG, the pastor said clitoris! I like this guy!"
"You should come to my church."
"Church is boring."
"But our pastor says clitoris!"
"OMG REALLY?"
Count Dookkake
Member
It really is amazing.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
I don't think I've ever watched myself and have gotten turned on. If a man is aroused by another man then yes, he'd have an argument. But that wasn't what he was arguing. He was arguing that a man by masturbating is taking part in a homosexual act.
mclaren777
Member
Mark qualified his statement more than that. It wasn't a blanket masturbation = homosexual claim.
You really should watch this
Mark Driscoll doesn't think women masturbate?
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
That's a good point, though I assume that McClarren would argue Driscoll would say a woman who masturbates while looking at herself and becoming aroused is a lesbian but those who don't aren't.
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
This guy doesn't seem to understand biology. The male human body is constantly absorbing and creating new Semen, even if you aren't masturbating.
JeTmAn81
Member
It seems pretty obvious he's talking about it from the male perspective. And actually, I don't think his logic is necessarily wrong...but who actually thinks about themselves when masturbating?
I guess that sort of was my point. Evangelical churches I think, even if someone was inclined to be religious take the male perspective to such an extent a lot of the "problems" they purport to deal with are centered around men. If you listen to an evangelical speak about homosexuality as a "problem" for example they pretty much are exclusively speaking to men in terms of gay men, lesbians are at best a tangential subject. Masturbation is about men. Porn is a problem for men. etc etc etc.
Now, I disagree with them on these issues and am not religious. But I've always thought the lack of interest in perspectives and problems facing women of faith (at least from their point of view) was a big mis-step. If you look at the history of women and religion in the US women have historically been the biggest gate keepers of faith in the home, particularly when the woman is a stay at home Mom. It just seems odd that the Evangelical community wouldn't try more to speak out to them and their issues.
CornBurrito
Member
A pastor getting science wrong (either intentionally or unintentionally) to promote his agenda? Stop the presses!!!!
Fun fact: If you go long enough without ejaculating (either by sex or masturbation) you will start to have nocturnal emissions.
So pleasuring yourself with your own hand isn't gay, but pleasuring yourself with your own mouth is?
JeTmAn81
Member
I don't disagree that women can be left behind when it comes to certain topics, but I think that's because some things do tend to be more of a problem for men, or more of a problem for women, and that's why a particular gender might get the focus. But there is a lot of focus in the churches that I've been to on women, it just isn't always concerning the same topics as the ones which are more focused on men.
In this particular instance, I don't think Mark Driscoll is trying to exclude women in his examples but tends to phrase things from his own perspective because that's a natural thing for anyone to do. The masturbation quote is pretty stupid either way, though I think if you asked him he'd apply it equally to men or women, and would not deny that women masturbate.
I'm sure he wouldn't deny it. I guess I'm just saying that if you keep reaching out consistently and your major public policy positions are all from a "male" perspective that is going to tend to alienate a segment of your audience, or potentially worse I would imagine from a religious perspective, make women believe they have fewer spiritual challenges. Like I said it's more of an observable trend I've noticed with evangelicals in particular rather than a real concern of mine since I'm not religious. I just think it's a bad strategy to focus so much on issues in terms more narrowly specific to one gender.
CornBurrito
Member
Interesting you bring that up. I went to a religious (Jewish) school for a few years of my life, and the rabbi pretty much said that verbatim.
That is why women don't have to wear kippot, or the other special garments that Jewish men are required to wear.
Dude Abides
Banned
I'm guessing Mark Driscoll has once or twice. Such a thing would never occur to someone who hasn't. He also seems to have a high opinion of himself.
JeTmAn81
Member
Your mileage may vary. I can't actually say what goes on at Mars Hill Church since I have never been there. FWIW, in the churches I've been to they tend to focus on subjects which are issues for everyone. I would find it pretty strange if my pastor spent a whole sermon on men and pornography. Not that subjects like that aren't mentioned at my church, but they are usually discussed in smaller groups.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
If 6 is exclusively hetero on the Kinsey scale I think we're talking 5.9 for blowing a load in your own mouth. Performing oral just seems more intimate than a handy-j. There are other masturbation options available and this hypothetical person chose the one that involved putting a penis in his mouth.
To go to another extreme, if someone's wife or GF offers oral and they're like, "No, I'll handle this! OMNOMNOM" I would posit that there's a little more to it than pure self-gratification.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
lol wow.
mclaren777
Member
To the OP: this is NeoGAF. I hope you didn't expect a warm welcome for this thread
If the content of these sermons helps improve/save someone's marriage, any amount of hostility or ridicule will be worth it.
Devolution
Member
Almost spit up my drink.
CornBurrito
Member
Ok, this post was really funny.
Sutton Dagger
Member
So mclaren's views on women and homosexuality (beastiality) start to make sense.
Second-hand madness is just as good as the real thing.
Hey Mclaren just curious if you've seen this stuff on Mars hill sort of overstepping their bounds. Accountability is certainly important in the church and christian relationships but what's being described seems to go beyond that. Of course there's two sides to every story, I'm sure there is to this one, but I wouldn't want anyone to get sucked into a bad situation.
And to people asking about what is being taught, watch the fricking video. Don't just come to your own assumptions if you watch the video it'll explain his views thoroughly on masturbation.
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/church-or-cult/Content?oid=12172001
And to people asking about what is being taught, watch the fricking video. Don't just come to your own assumptions if you watch the video it'll explain his views thoroughly on masturbation.
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/church-or-cult/Content?oid=12172001
But that's one of the only things he got right.
mclaren777
Member
I think the beauty of MHC is its focus on men and their responsibility to be good leaders (both at home and in the world at large). Most evangelical churches that I've been to feel rather feminine and statistically I think something like 60% of Christians in America are women. Mark often jokes that most men don't respond well to a version of Jesus that they think they can beat in a fist fight, and while his use of hyperbole probably offends some people, I think he's got a point. If a church primarily focuses on the softer side of Jesus' character, He ends up sounding like an ancient "be good to one another" hippy, and the average man will almost surely choose Sunday football over going to church.
mclaren777
Member
I'm aware of the recent stories and it sounds like they were isolated issues where local leadership grievously sinned against the people they were supposed to be shepharding. MHC recently released a public statement regarding both situations, should you care to read it...
Source
"In the two cases that have recently received media attention, we want to remind readers that there are always two sides to every story. As Proverbs 18:17 tells us, "The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him." Unfortunately, in most of the articles and blog posts published in recent weeks, with the exception of the recent Slate article, we were not contacted by the authors to verify the facts or seek explanation regarding those cases prior publishing their articles. Out of sensitivity for all involved, and a biblical mandate to handle such matters within the church, we do not wish to comment publicly on those specific cases and drag into public what should be private.
The church is made up of sinners, leadership included. The result is that sometimes things are handled poorly by leaders in a church discipline process and sometimes those who are under church discipline respond poorly. In such instances, it is the responsibility of the church leadership to protect our members, and when we hear of leaders overstepping their authority through the church discipline process we are quick to act to rectify the situation.
In both cases that have been brought to light, things did not go as they should have, and well before they were ever written about in a public setting by bloggers and journalists, Mars Hill leadership stepped in to investigate. As a result of those investigations, it was determined that the leaders involved had a pattern of overstepping their authority. As such, they were released and are no longer on paid staff or in formal leadership in any capacity at Mars Hill Church. Again, these actions were taken months ago, prior to any public exposure.
We love those who call Mars Hill Church home, we love those who criticize us from the outside, and we also love those who have left the church. This includes the two members whose stories have been shared. Our desire is to be faithful stewards of God's grace and to serve our church well as leaders."
mclaren777
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