It's the biggest elephant in the room, I'm surprised they didn't have a proper canned response ready.
Marvel Vs. Capcom: Infinite Characters and Stages Roster |DT2| oh dear...
- Thread starter IntelliHeath
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Doctrine Dark
Member
I guess they could've parroted the original line from back in Dec ("The culture won't be lost") or something like that. Not that it would've mattered.
It's honestly a touchy subject. Jay Ong from Marvel Games can't even speak on the X-Men and he's not apart of the Capcom development team. Seems like everyone is prohibited to speak on it. It sucks that its ever had to come to this.
It's honestly a touchy subject. Jay Ong from Marvel Games can't even speak on the X-Men and he's not apart of the Capcom development team. Seems like everyone is prohibited to speak on it. It sucks that its ever had to come to this.
BassForever
Member
There are guys in doa?
There're more male characters than female in DoA, surprisingly.
Yeah, but it's actually a legit opinion if the rest of the game backs it up. There's an actual potential audience that doesn't care about the versions of the characters us older players want to see. They haven't been as big in this decade's run of movies, and they're not the style that's currently running through the comics.
The best way to deal with not having our classic old X-men would have been to not focus on that era of inspirations entirely. I still am confused why Mary Jane is walking around in Stark Industries in Ironman comics, lol. I don't remember Ms. Potts having her own Ironwoman outfit called "Rescue". Why is everyone talking about Terrigen Mist, and why is my Incredible Hulk not an older scientist white guy, but a more trendy Awesome young Asian? I've seen Maximus toss around some very Sentinel-like robots in Future Fight, and there seems to be an Inhuman equivalent to basically any mutant I liked in the past. There's like 10 versions of Whiplash / Blacklash that could fight similar to Omega Red, lets not even mention how many people across different creeds, races, and timelines have worn the mantle of Capitan America.
For a game tagging itself as "Infinite", it seems to see a very straight, singular line of potential with it's ways of dealing with issues.
It also could have been a nice way to avoid the voice actor's strike for some of the classic characters. Just get them to do a classic outfit / voice combo after the issue is resolved.
Or good for diversity in general. There's loads of variants of basically every character in this main cast, that could have functioned the same way. I think it would have made the shifting of the systems from 3V3 to 2V2 a lot easier to digest, as well.
Jawmuncher
Member
Yeah, the capcom side especially would've been easy since those characters get new looks all the time.
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
They should stick with no comments or legacy wouldn't been lost.
Jawmuncher
Member
No comment really. Legacy not lost and then no Xmen in the base roster is even worse.
Doctrine Dark
Member
It's a lose/lose no matter how you look at it.
They should have just been more honest and say that they're mainly focusing on the MCU while being open to other characters like Nova or Venom. Yeah it won't stop the criticism but saying stupid things like the function talk or no one remembering the X-men just adds fuel to the fire.
DR2K
Banned
If only there were some way to just add a few X-Men in the last few months when this ban was no longer a thing? There's like 6 characters they can port from UMVC3. Maybe push post release content back?
They can't comment on a rule that no longer exists. Now Capcom is in a position where it can maybe get X-Men characters a lot earlier and are just sticking to their plans because all the post release content is almost finished.
They can't comment on a rule that no longer exists. Now Capcom is in a position where it can maybe get X-Men characters a lot earlier and are just sticking to their plans because all the post release content is almost finished.
Karsticles
Member
Hmmm.
Push the game back and lose money...
Or sell X-Men as DLC and make money...
I wonder which one Capcom will do.
Push the game back and lose money...
Or sell X-Men as DLC and make money...
I wonder which one Capcom will do.
Doctrine Dark
Member
The 2nd option would be obsolete if the game fails to meet sales figures.
Pushing the game back would likely be more beneficial in the long-run, but we know it won't happen.
Pushing the game back would likely be more beneficial in the long-run, but we know it won't happen.
Exactly.
But what will happen is the secret third option that is don't push the game and lose money.
The problem is that the base roster was probably locked in when the ban was a thing. It's likely the same problem that Lego Marvel 2 is facing.
Problem with Door #2 is that people will honestly think that Capcom is holding MvC3 X-Men characters hostage and force players to pay a ransom in order to get them at a later date. Not to mention that Black Panther "Functions" like Wolverine, then you have a problem of "Why pay for Wolverine if I already have 'Wolverine'?"
After all, how long did it take for people to make the connection that Captain Marvel "Functions" like Phoenix? Who knows how many more examples we'll see of characters playing as others, but I hope that we have more unique characters rather than characters that just so happen to play as others (while at the same time avoiding previously established MvC3 characters as Paid DLC).
This game honestly is going to go down in the history book as a "PR Nightmare" due to how things have been handled. I know the truth hurts, but honestly it would have been done and done if they just said something in terms of "A deal was made to promote Marvel characters within the Marvel's Cinematic Universe. (or point out the relevance of Marvel today since outside of Deadpool and Dr. Doom, the X-Men and F4 has been slowly fazed out of the comics, or at least to a point where we don't see them as often ) " Yeah, that would have caused a backlash, but that backlash sadly would have paled in comparison to what we're seeing right now where it not only feels like it is "sidestepping" the question, but doing it in such as way as if you make people think that they are stupid and would believe anything like "No one remembers the X-Men" (which as we have clearly established before with Deadpool and Logan, people definitely still knows these X-Men characters)
DR2K
Banned
Right I imagine both developers were a little pissed that they finally had access to Marvels full catalog near the end of their development cycle. So technically it's on them and not on Marvel that these characters aren't included.
In situations like this, I just don't get why "free" DLC isn't more of a thing. There's no real reason to hold the whole game back for content that can be added later-on. We're past the days of an on-disk release being the one definitive version of a game.
Won't more people be willing to buy the base game ASAP, if they know they can get a head start on learning it now, and then every month or quarter, expect a free Classic Character / Classic MVC skin added at no additional cost?
Could you imagine how many people would be all-in, if they knew there was an in-game voting tool to pick the next character from the recently-expanded viable character pool?
Sure character and asset development cost a solid amount of money. But having the product fail to sell at all cost them much, much more. This isn't some game that's released and forgotten in months, or a cartridge that can only be improved by a sequel. This is a product they hope to make repeat and micro-content sales on for years to come.
Clearly defined roadmaps, honest, smart answers to questions, and the smallest semblance of showing an in-game reaction to fan desires, could really shift the word of mouth around this game.
Won't more people be willing to buy the base game ASAP, if they know they can get a head start on learning it now, and then every month or quarter, expect a free Classic Character / Classic MVC skin added at no additional cost?
Could you imagine how many people would be all-in, if they knew there was an in-game voting tool to pick the next character from the recently-expanded viable character pool?
Sure character and asset development cost a solid amount of money. But having the product fail to sell at all cost them much, much more. This isn't some game that's released and forgotten in months, or a cartridge that can only be improved by a sequel. This is a product they hope to make repeat and micro-content sales on for years to come.
Clearly defined roadmaps, honest, smart answers to questions, and the smallest semblance of showing an in-game reaction to fan desires, could really shift the word of mouth around this game.
Capcom is clearly all in on the "$60 game as service" model and they really don't care that the game underperforms at launch because they are hoping that the whales within the FGC will buy all the new characters and costumes at full price and keep the game afloat.
One person spending $60+$60 is actually better for Capcom than two people buying the game as silly as it sounds. They get more returns from people buying characters within the game, there is no real middle man there.
If Capcom actually cared how the game performs on day 1 then this game would've been delayed months ago. Games have been delayed for far less.
One person spending $60+$60 is actually better for Capcom than two people buying the game as silly as it sounds. They get more returns from people buying characters within the game, there is no real middle man there.
If Capcom actually cared how the game performs on day 1 then this game would've been delayed months ago. Games have been delayed for far less.
Nah, it's still on Marvel for not lifting the restrictions sooner. And now both devs may be facing issues concerning the F4, especially with rumors of Capcom adding in some F4 characters circulating.
I've been thinking that free character DLC is probably the best way to turn the image of this game around. They should do something like Xrd did where you can download characters for free during a certain time period. They can even relegate these free characters to just the ones in UMvC3 so the development cost would be less expensive than creating a character from scratch.
Of course, the issues that crop up are Marvel agreeing to giving away their characters for free and players being convinced to pay for some characters but not others.
Successful games as services are successful games first. Capcom does care how it performs day 1 otherwise they wouldn't tell their investors they expect 2 millions sales.
christiankid7
Member
Perhaps Marvel and Capcom could do free/sale DLC around the time of the next Marvel movie if you went to see it or something. Like a code on the ticket or something
Coming out with a statement like all MVC3 returning DLC will be free/reduced in price might be a nice idea
Coming out with a statement like all MVC3 returning DLC will be free/reduced in price might be a nice idea
This isn't even that much of an "Online Whale" capable game at this point, though.
Buying various retail versions get you the first character pass and an ok amount of costumes for pre-order, and we've yet to see anything that can be repeat-purchased, like mods for the UltronSigma soldiers you fight, alt stages, in-game cards, or an in-game cash system.
I guess that's up in the air for now, though; If all the starting cast has a DLC costume available day 1 for 2.99 each or something, I could absolutely see them trying to make the real money on sales to those dedicated ones who buy it.
Yeah, even the smallest free offering still feels like a boon to a consumer when it's free. New Skins on old functions would still feel like a great thing for most of us.
Like christiankid7 said, with all the power behind Marcel and Capcom, you'd think they could figure out SOMETHING. Free DLC codes with movie ticket reservations, Marvel digital comic subscriptions including bonus costumes, tie ins with their mobile games... It's worse to let other's imaginations run wild with crazy ideas, than to just draw the lines in the sand themselves, and start saying and showing what they actually CAN do.
That's kind of the issue with DLC in general. Yeah, it is nice when new content is free, but that is still time, money and other resources being used up just for the sake of zero returns. You can argue that Nintendo doing free with games like Splatoon and ARMS is ok since it isn't like the three factors aren't that big of an issue for them (for reasons I can't say without having proper evidence). On the other hand, look at other fighting games. Perhaps by "Rewarding" players like what was stated with Xrd would be nice since that is like a gift to those who helped to support the game early on while others who hop in later who probably wouldn't have paid as much in comparison for their copies could still get those characters at a lesser cost.
All that said, that is why people have the big issues with Capcom's approach. It was ok when games like KoF or Smash 4 doing it since it wasn't like all those DLC characters were available Day 1, but in terms of Capcom's games? We have characters that look to be available right at launch and you are telling people to pay even more than the $60 if you want "All the content" and not just the basic roster.
Of course, this is just looking at it from the idea that Sigma and Black Panther will actually be "fightable" in the game's story mode (alongside with the other 4 DLC characters that have yet to be introduced).
All that said, that is why people have the big issues with Capcom's approach. It was ok when games like KoF or Smash 4 doing it since it wasn't like all those DLC characters were available Day 1, but in terms of Capcom's games? We have characters that look to be available right at launch and you are telling people to pay even more than the $60 if you want "All the content" and not just the basic roster.
Of course, this is just looking at it from the idea that Sigma and Black Panther will actually be "fightable" in the game's story mode (alongside with the other 4 DLC characters that have yet to be introduced).
christiankid7
Member
I don't think we will fight Sigma in the story,
If anything they'll set up for a second half of the story/sequel and he'll probably jump out of Ultron right before we destroy him, possibly try to find another suitable body...which kinda sucks since they're on Asgard and Sigma might be able to infect...
that
If anything they'll set up for a second half of the story/sequel and he'll probably jump out of Ultron right before we destroy him, possibly try to find another suitable body...which kinda sucks since they're on Asgard and Sigma might be able to infect...
that
Karsticles
Member
I can find almost nothing in common between Ms. Marvel and Phoenix, and I use the latter on my secondary team.
I don't know anything about Black Panther except that he keeps stealing the greatest Marvel woman undeserved, but I guarantee he won't play like Wolverine.
How are Captain Marvel and Phoenix similar?
Ya'll really taking that function comment too literally.
Market seems to think DLC at launch is fine if everybody is praising Tekken, Injustice, and MKX.
Ya'll really taking that function comment too literally.
Market seems to think DLC at launch is fine if everybody is praising Tekken, Injustice, and MKX.
It's never really "zero returns", though. Putting money into dev'n promotional content is the same as putting money into an ad team or artist to promote the product.
Just like giving away a game with PS+ or GWG isn't truly a purely free copy. The creator is paid a certain amount to offer a game in that way, which very well could be more than the dev would have made if left on their own, plus it gets the product into more people's hands. Plus, it makes the Platform holder appear "consumer friendly", which draws more people to buy their products, and become part of their ecosystem, which is where they make their real money.
It's upfront losses for backend profit.
They can both fly and, uh...
Oh, they both glow!
Doctrine Dark
Member
I've seen people say Binary was a copy and paste of Dark Phoenix with some changes. Yes, those people exist.
They have to say something to the investors.
A new Marvel Infinite game selling 100K day 1 as a $60 product does not look good for investors at all.
The only things Phoenix and Captain Marvel have in common are that they both have 8 way air dash, flight, female, slide and a glowy transformation. Captain Marvel probably has more in common with Nova than Phoenix at this point.
... Vixen has the entire animal kingdom, that has ever lived on the planet, and even mythical ones, as a possibility for her power set. This includes doing things like increasing her weight, potentially morphing, shooting dragon breath, adapting gills, razor claws, etc...
Cheetah is just a woman cursed by a cat god, with super-strength and cat-powers. Yet they're able to fill up the same slot in Injustice 2.
So you're telling me it's hard to figure how Captain Marvel and Phoenix, both women who fly, shoot energy blast in various forms, and can tap into super, more powerful forms, could serve the exact same purpose in a fighting game? They're only much different in a game, because they were developed as separate roster slots.
To be honest, as cool as it is, I always thought the fact that Jean Grey (a super telekinetic / psychic power user) turned into something like Binary+Pyro (energy and flame focused) as Phoenix, was like forcing multiple characters into one. And then Dark Phoenix is basically Ryu turning into Akuma. She's like the epitome of using 1 roster slot to satisfy multiple character concepts, lol.
Comic book games are the PERFECT way to offer 1 slot with costumes and voices that serve a multitude of fans. Bishop will likely never be a full on character in a MVC game, but he, Forge, and Cable could all share the same character slot with very little modifications. Black Widow, Gamora, Lady, and Arcia from Chaos Legion could all be represented by the same moveset, with very little overall modification, if desired.
It'd really be awesome of Marvel and Capcom would embrace the old "What If?!" series into designs for these games (beyond Ultron Sigma, I guess.) Crimson Viper learned how to fit an optic blast into her moveset, I wonder what Sakura could ape from the Marvel Universe...
Cheetah is just a woman cursed by a cat god, with super-strength and cat-powers. Yet they're able to fill up the same slot in Injustice 2.
So you're telling me it's hard to figure how Captain Marvel and Phoenix, both women who fly, shoot energy blast in various forms, and can tap into super, more powerful forms, could serve the exact same purpose in a fighting game? They're only much different in a game, because they were developed as separate roster slots.
To be honest, as cool as it is, I always thought the fact that Jean Grey (a super telekinetic / psychic power user) turned into something like Binary+Pyro (energy and flame focused) as Phoenix, was like forcing multiple characters into one. And then Dark Phoenix is basically Ryu turning into Akuma. She's like the epitome of using 1 roster slot to satisfy multiple character concepts, lol.
Comic book games are the PERFECT way to offer 1 slot with costumes and voices that serve a multitude of fans. Bishop will likely never be a full on character in a MVC game, but he, Forge, and Cable could all share the same character slot with very little modifications. Black Widow, Gamora, Lady, and Arcia from Chaos Legion could all be represented by the same moveset, with very little overall modification, if desired.
It'd really be awesome of Marvel and Capcom would embrace the old "What If?!" series into designs for these games (beyond Ultron Sigma, I guess.) Crimson Viper learned how to fit an optic blast into her moveset, I wonder what Sakura could ape from the Marvel Universe...
Jawmuncher
Member
MK and Injustice got away with a launch DLC character because those titles at this point are bigger than anything capcom can do with marketing. Then with all of the casual first FGC second marketing they have that demographic on lock. They didn't even show their Season Pass characters until closer to launch, not months out.
Tekken just had a newcomer as a preorder bonus, so no real loss to anyone if they miss that one character. Then after that they've said only 2 more characters are coming. Once again no real stakes in 2 guest characters come months later.
Capcom however is in the shitty situation once again. They don't have the budget for the Marketing warner bros does. Despite the inclusion of a story mode they're still struggling to pool in the casual audience due to their presentation which is probably another factor of budget and the development cycle. Then on top of that they're announcing DLC far ahead of schedule.
That's what's making the whole "Season Pass to have the full game" really stick to people. Capcom is pushing harder on people buying the deluxe so early out more than anything else. Which wouldn't be a problem necessarily, but the Roster Leak I think has hurt a lot of things. Since now people are wondering why characters such as Black panther are DLC instead of being in the game. This isn't factoring any bad PR that has taken place.
it sucks for capcom. But I feel a good chunk of the criticalness is because people expect more from capcom and they want them to succeed. I'd argue that a lot of the general complaints aren't unjust. Though some claims are definitely going a bit overboard. But on the same hand, seems a lot of times being loud and overwhelmingly negative sadly is the quickest way to be listened to.
Tekken just had a newcomer as a preorder bonus, so no real loss to anyone if they miss that one character. Then after that they've said only 2 more characters are coming. Once again no real stakes in 2 guest characters come months later.
Capcom however is in the shitty situation once again. They don't have the budget for the Marketing warner bros does. Despite the inclusion of a story mode they're still struggling to pool in the casual audience due to their presentation which is probably another factor of budget and the development cycle. Then on top of that they're announcing DLC far ahead of schedule.
That's what's making the whole "Season Pass to have the full game" really stick to people. Capcom is pushing harder on people buying the deluxe so early out more than anything else. Which wouldn't be a problem necessarily, but the Roster Leak I think has hurt a lot of things. Since now people are wondering why characters such as Black panther are DLC instead of being in the game. This isn't factoring any bad PR that has taken place.
it sucks for capcom. But I feel a good chunk of the criticalness is because people expect more from capcom and they want them to succeed. I'd argue that a lot of the general complaints aren't unjust. Though some claims are definitely going a bit overboard. But on the same hand, seems a lot of times being loud and overwhelmingly negative sadly is the quickest way to be listened to.
Yeah, delaying the game is a deathwish for pretty much any game outside of like maybe a GTA, especially this late into the game.
Not that I don't think it's just trolling most of the time, but it puzzles me when people think delaying a game with bad PR won't likely continue the narrative of a game being a lost cause.
There's a reason why over the past 2 gens the game industry has transitioned to a point where indie games are a bastion of glorified tech demos and premiere AA-AAA titles/brands are launching bug ridden games. Devs can't make assets quickly or efficiently enough with current tools but expectations for fidelity and specs are only going up. I don't know how Capcom can compete at this point. Even RE7 just looks okay and that's where they throw all their money, I can't reasonably expect a smaller publisher like Capcom to do what WB does. FWIW I think it looks fine but that's not the general impression it seems, and I guess they'll wait out a 2.0 edition big update or something like Burnout Paradise got.
christiankid7
Member
I'm sorry, but
Bishop as an alt for Cable?
Lady and Black Widow playing the same way as Gamora?
I mean, I guess if you water down a character so long you could do that with almost anyone, but I'd rather have unique playstyles, not shoehorning in characters as alts because we could.
I mean, I could see Miles, Kaine and Miguel being alts for Spidey even though they have some different powers/abilities because they are still somewhat similar and have the same name
Bishop as an alt for Cable?
Lady and Black Widow playing the same way as Gamora?
I mean, I guess if you water down a character so long you could do that with almost anyone, but I'd rather have unique playstyles, not shoehorning in characters as alts because we could.
I mean, I could see Miles, Kaine and Miguel being alts for Spidey even though they have some different powers/abilities because they are still somewhat similar and have the same name
Killa Sasa
Member
If this game becomes Burnout Paradise then this will be the greatest fighter of all time, fuck whatever the start looks like.
As far as car games go for me, there's FZero GX for straight racing but then Burnout Paradise is on Mount Olympus. As Zeus.
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Capcom just needs to do a better job of managing expectations for the game going forward. It's going to be what it's going to be but the value proposition has been all over the place if you just read about the game in passing. Them not adding a consistent voice (re: timely) around it for one reason or another let others kind of impact the conversation, probably moreso than their relative influence should dictate.
Game will be fun and good for what it is. They've not put their best foot forward but eh, it's almost here and I'm looking forward to when we can actually talk about how the game plays and develops. It won't hit their numbers off the bat but I think it'll recover decently once there's another lightning rod.
Another character reveal would be fun :3. A VERY SPECIFIC CHARACTER. Next week should have some good shit.
Did anything come out of Montreal Comic-Con yet?
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Also I'm all for more character slots with different people, but premium skins with similar movesets and new VA would be dope too where it fits. I can see where it might rub people the wrong way, but I LMAO'd hard at the Zero-X skin in 3. Mostly because it was near the height of how badly Capcom hated Mega Man, how I feel about Zero, and just the tone-deafness. All during the MM anniversary if I remember correctly. So good.
Of course the two are different as you aren't going to have Ms. Marvel play just like Phoenix, but there have been those who haven't hesitated to make that comparison when she first appeared. Not to take Max's video out of context, but you can see how in the "comparison," there were a few small things that could be seen as "similar." It isn't much, but I wouldn't be shocked if there were some who took offense to the word "function" and may try and connect the two together in an attempt to undersell Ms. Marvel as a new character. Wouldn't be a good argument though since she still has her own unique set of moves and just happens to also do punches and kicks that could be seen as similar at best. As for Black Panther, that is of course speculation as well in regards of how he will play, but we don't really know since people are just taking guesses on that as well.
Goes to show how much I have to learn. Still, thank you for the polite response.
They're both women! And god only knows that you only need like 4 of those.
Sure, I'd like to have those guys as a dedicated slot. I'm a fan or many bit characters more than the popular ones. But it's an awesome compromise, when some actual time is put into it.
To go back to Injustice again, they got the actors who play the roles of the premium skin characters to actually voice them. They have story-relevant dialogue with other characters. They are treated like they're part of the universe. There's nothing keeping them from being extended into full characters later on, but they're respected almost as well as full characters, even as mostly free bonus skins.
It's true fanservice in a good, fun way, when done right.
Yeah, it can be pretty nice when done well (As an example, I think it's great we're getting a Command Missions Megaman as a suit in MCVI), but when it's just a poor shell over no attempt at all to make things fit (like Megaman over Zero in UMVC3), that\s pretty low. But funny.
Turbanator
Member
Implying that T'Challa and Logan can be costumes for one another is simply hilarious. Even moreso for Jean and Carol.
Play Ryu, Ken, and Akuma back to back in SFV for the best explanation of why I don't really mind Capcom giving the same playstyle archtype to multiple characters. Alternatively, play Wolverine and X-23 in MvC3 to see how little having the exact same abilities means when it comes to playstyle.
Play Ryu, Ken, and Akuma back to back in SFV for the best explanation of why I don't really mind Capcom giving the same playstyle archtype to multiple characters. Alternatively, play Wolverine and X-23 in MvC3 to see how little having the exact same abilities means when it comes to playstyle.
christiankid7
Member
Its got to make sense though, and, for example, Black Widow and Lady...I can't really see how they'd play similar at all. Lady's weapons are much more ridiculous than I could see Widow ever using. Plus widow wouldn't fight like Lady, in my opinion. Widow is a spy, focused on close quarters combat and firearms. Lady is all about her guns and like characters in all DMC games, flashy combos
Carnage for Venom, Beta Ray Bill for Thor, War Machine for Iron Man....I get these (somewhat begrudgingly for War Machine)
Carnage for Venom, Beta Ray Bill for Thor, War Machine for Iron Man....I get these (somewhat begrudgingly for War Machine)
Turbanator
Member
Don't get me wrong, i get what he meant, but he chose damn horrid examples.
If he said Rogue over Carol or Polaris over Magneto, I'd kinda understand that.
Spidey better have like 20 different EX costumes.
If he said Rogue over Carol or Polaris over Magneto, I'd kinda understand that.
Spidey better have like 20 different EX costumes.
That is an excellent way to put it. Just because there are "similarities" to characters in playstyle, it doesn't mean that they are all the exact same. And yet for some, that is the conclusion they are drawing just because of what was said in the interview.
On a somewhat related note: This video here was made the same day the interview was posted. Some have really ran with the idea that was mentioned by Combofiend (although they joke when they say that the gloves give the characters too much personality).
Doctrine Dark
Member
That would be a perfect solution.
Which means Capcom won't do it.
Which means Capcom won't do it.
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