Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
Armada is dropping his Peach for Fox, isn't he?
Masahiro Sakurai: The Act of Balancing Smash
- Thread starter Masked Man
- Start date
Sm4sh has around 20 tournament viable character. If that's not balance, I don't know what it is.
Hell A meta Knight won a tournament yesterday, beating top tier characters such as sheik, Zss and Diddy Kong.
That is balanced.
Lol, yeah that God. I'm glad we can have a new smash game that I can have some faith in. I may not enjoy it as much as melee but it's great to see potential in it.
Spinosaurus
Member
Only for some matchups
No more Peach from Armada, only Fox :C
It's a new meta game. As I said, we will see that viable list shrink not grow. Also MK at this point seems to be one of those special few that shoots up. After getting so changed from brawl nobody wanted to really experiment with him but now we see he has some crazy stuff he can do.
Starfish Hero
Member
Well, that depends on what you define as viable. While characters like Pikachu and Yoshi have been doing well lately, it'd be pretty shocking if either character won a major tournament. Of those 10 or 11, only half actually win anything notable nowadays.
Is it sad that I can see Pikachu or Yoshi winning a major before Falcon? ; _ ;
Snacks the sober sea lion
Member
You need both nerfs and buffs. Sometimes top tiers have options that completely shut down other characters regardless of how good they are. They're too eager to nerf with this game, though.
Spinosaurus
Member
As someone who mains Falcon in Melee, no I'm with you.
And we're not getting a lot of those buffs. Don't get me wrong I'd love to see my boy Marth get buffs but I'm not seeing it happening.
I think amsa and axe, have won majors I think super majors like apex or evo are a different story though.
Marth had a couple of IASA buffs in the last patch with his 1-hit jab, f-tilt and dancing blade. His dair meteor hitbox was also increased.
DryEyeRelief
Member
how exactly do you make a character excellent for other modes
I know. Doesn't fix his problems but yeah you're right, my bad.
When they use the Beam Sword, it's range is the entire screen.
Majukun
Member
well big and heavy characters perform much better in multi-men melees than faster but lighter characters..and viceversa in 1 vs 1 are the faster characters who reign supreme
Brainfreeze
Member
My issue is more so your assertion that Smash 4 isn't well balanced while seemingly trying to defend Melee as something Supremely balanced, which just seems to come from no where. You're giving Melee a lot of breaks you aren't giving 4 in your analysis.
From what we've seen so far, there's still a ton of potential for a lot of different characters to win at any major tournament. Customs throw even more viable characters into them mix. It has all the signs of a healthy balance with a strong metagame and strong future of patches with the DLC. I don't see support anywhere that 4 is unbalanced, moreso just frustration that your chosen character doesn't happened to be one of the better ones.
Excuse my rudeness, but dare I say this is an instance where you simply need to git gud.
They are, and a decent number of people seem to be moving towards Sheik as well. I'd be a little hesitant to say that there are 10 or 11 viable characters in the modern Melee meta, but no matter what number you settle on, the vast majority of the matches you see will feature at least one of those three characters, or perhaps a Marth. Just because characters have power and potential doesn't necessarily mean they're often seen at the top. At the same time, however, you have to know those other 4-7 match-ups anyway if you're a pro player. It's very unlikely you'll be fighting Ice Climbers in grand finals, but the characters are strong enough that if you don't know the match-up you're taking a big risk of not even getting out of pools.
Just another instance that make tier list discussions weird and inexact.
Just noticed this thread, will copy my response from the community thread with a little extra:
Basically he has some Japanese dudes playing the game, who are likely not going to place top 8 at the average tournament there. His reasoning for balancing casual vs pro play tells me that the reason Bowser has the problems he has competitively is cause some newbie is charging fsmashes and killing their clueless friends... meaning Bowser is balanced. Outside of that reasoning there's no reason not to make the character better, he doesn't excel at 1v1, 2v2 or FFA matches.
I watched that tournament, which was best of 1 matches the whole way until the end (or maybe even the finals were a best of 1, I don't recall), and all the matches went pretty fast. Certainly not more time than some intermediate players who understand how to recover. Unless he wanted random SDs.
Basically he has some Japanese dudes playing the game, who are likely not going to place top 8 at the average tournament there. His reasoning for balancing casual vs pro play tells me that the reason Bowser has the problems he has competitively is cause some newbie is charging fsmashes and killing their clueless friends... meaning Bowser is balanced. Outside of that reasoning there's no reason not to make the character better, he doesn't excel at 1v1, 2v2 or FFA matches.
I watched that tournament, which was best of 1 matches the whole way until the end (or maybe even the finals were a best of 1, I don't recall), and all the matches went pretty fast. Certainly not more time than some intermediate players who understand how to recover. Unless he wanted random SDs.
My issue came from people saying melee was unbalanced while also saying 4 is well balanced. And I AM good at smash 4. I'm better at it than I am melee. It's not some supremely balanced game as people seem to say. I play pit and he is plent tourney viable.
Professor Beef
Banned
GOOD
I'd like to hear your opinion on how Sm4sh is not well balanced. It's not perfectly balanced, but it does a damn good job with the balance.
Which character are overpowered? Diddy kind was, and got nerfed. Sheik, Diddy, Luigi are not OP, etc. There isn't any OP characters in Sm4sh. There are a few strong movement (Luigi tornado, for example) but far from being OP. Low tier stand a chance against any top/high tier, specially with custom. You can't say that about Melee.
I'd like to hear your opinion on why Melee is unbalanced. I've already said 4 is pretty much standard as far as smash balance is concerned. I think people have forgotten that smash has some pretty good history with balance after the train wreck that is brawl. 4 is about as balanced as melee and I'm defending melee as people seem to think it's an unbalanced mess when it's from from it.
Comfort Jones
Banned
Just make roll i frames less ridiculous to begin with?
Cuz that's what top players are complaining about . Once again no one is winning real matches by just spamming roll repeatedly.
Which I recall was also the case for Brawl possibly even Sonic's.
It's great that the Smash Ballot is happening but I honestly wouldn't be surprised if, once again, votes from Japan are favoured over international.
A little of copy-paste:
Which character are overpowered? Diddy kind was, and got nerfed. Sheik, Diddy, Luigi are not OP, neither Rosalina is. There isn't any OP characters in Sm4sh. There are a few strong movement (Luigi tornado, for example) but far from being OP. Low tier stand a chance against any top/high tier, specially with custom. You can't say that about Melee.
Melee is an unbalanced train in each of its corner. any character that is not S tier do not stand a chance against them.
Bowsercide was waaaaaay too good in the first patch, making him a top tier. NERFED. Now he might be middle tier.
Just the fact that Melee has Chaingrabs it yells unbalanced everywhere.
Referring back to my Marth vs sheik match up as that's going to go horribly for the Marth. Low tier characters stand about as much chance as they did in melee. Fox is just as OP in melee as sheik is in 4. And I'm no even singling out sheik with that, all the top tiers are going to beat the bottom few. Especially as the metagame develops. You should watch more melee if you think you need to pick the S tier to win. Plenty of characters do well against those matchups.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Bowsercide was nerfed because of the Flying Man glitch in Magicant.
Carried over to Wii U.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llwSOCOhJ_8
And since on 3ds this stage is used in the Smash Mode in For Fun it was bound to get patched.
Bowser gets to suffer at the hands of an NPC.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Is there any compelling reason why he can't do both? 64 and melee are can be played competitively, and all characters can be used competently in other modes like BTT, Adventure, All Star, FFA, etc.
FullmetalPain
Banned
Giving us more than flat stages for online would be great. A good Link is ridiculous on FG. Mewtwo needs more weight as well.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
More and more, it seems like Melee was a fluke
well, the team that developed super smash bros melee stopped making smash games after it. HAL made melee, not sakurai. One person doesn't make a game like melee (a gamecube game, they weren't making a nes game xD) in 13 months all by himself
dr.rocktopus
Banned
I really need to learn some footstool combos, need some time in the Yoshi labs though :/
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Why are people screaming "I'm saying my opinions!" as though it makes them immune from what others think of them lol
And why are people shouting Sakurai defense force when immediately right at the first page we already got people shitting on him for no apparent reason?
Eh, 64 is pretty much Pikachu the game plus some stragglers. I'd say something about Melee, but then you'd get posters refuting me with "but these characters are viable too!" as they watch the same characters yet again being used in a tourney.
If there's one sin Melee committed, it's fucking convincing people that Fox and Falco look better in Melee. No, I don't care if you think Brawl and 4 Fox look worse, that doesn't make Melee Fox any better (literally a corgi). And Arceus help you if you actually think Melee Falco looks good. It's almost as bad as thinking the Star Fox cast have metal legs. Almost.
And why are people shouting Sakurai defense force when immediately right at the first page we already got people shitting on him for no apparent reason?
Eh, 64 is pretty much Pikachu the game plus some stragglers. I'd say something about Melee, but then you'd get posters refuting me with "but these characters are viable too!" as they watch the same characters yet again being used in a tourney.
If there's one sin Melee committed, it's fucking convincing people that Fox and Falco look better in Melee. No, I don't care if you think Brawl and 4 Fox look worse, that doesn't make Melee Fox any better (literally a corgi). And Arceus help you if you actually think Melee Falco looks good. It's almost as bad as thinking the Star Fox cast have metal legs. Almost.
Lol
I feel like if smash was balanced for 1v1 it'd be fine. Itd make anything above that into a party mode and people would be satisfied.
Thing is, he likes all items on medium with 2 minute matches, so the game is most likely balanced to that. Sure it *works* for 1v1 but he has made it super clear that that is not who he wants to buy the game.
(I *like* items but that's like street fighter's director just flat out ignoring their fan base because why should street fighter be an esport?)
Smash would be nuts if it was treated like an actual fighter. I'm not asking for melee 2 I just want the game to take itself seriously.
Thing is, he likes all items on medium with 2 minute matches, so the game is most likely balanced to that. Sure it *works* for 1v1 but he has made it super clear that that is not who he wants to buy the game.
(I *like* items but that's like street fighter's director just flat out ignoring their fan base because why should street fighter be an esport?)
Smash would be nuts if it was treated like an actual fighter. I'm not asking for melee 2 I just want the game to take itself seriously.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
It's ironic because you're the one making hyperbolic comments about the community being homogenized in their approach to a new game. People play 64, people play Melee, and people played Brawl. The three coexisted at the same tournaments for years. Yes there's stupid shit flinging, but there's also shit flinging between people that play different Street Fighter games too make no mistake. And making a mod to brawl did not cannibalize potential brawl players, the people that wanted brawl to be more like melee and hopped onboard project m, they already played brawl and didn't like it.
Because he, once again, said stupid fucking shit and should be called out for it.
See this combo video doesn't suck, cause it's just one guy going "hey I did this in a match once look here". I remember seeing stuff for smash 4 that are like "well THIS combo works from 0 to death cuz I'm doing it against the training dummy and it doesn't tech or di at all" and it's just the most impractical shit
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Brawl is dead though. You can't say that with Street Fighter, with 3S still alive to this day, and I even see Alpha 3 from time to time. I know people will bring up 64, but at most they're exhibition or small matches, not really a dedicated one.
4 is making its presence, but time will tell if it will sustain or not because of the community only preferring one big scene.
Also I'm only hyperbolic when Pokemon is involved.
And it is right that he is called out on that. However, shit like what that gonzo posted or stuff like "he is a hack" aren't. There's a huge difference between the two.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
I think brawl is dead because people just see smash 4 as an improved brawl, so all those people just moved on to that. 64 most definitely has a dedicated group. Apex earlier this year had almost 200 entrants for it. And I know people play it online, not unlike people playing whatever on fightcade.
Gonzo The Great
Banned
Dark Pit was never highly requested. And Nintendo is a global company, so this is a terrible excuse. Smash sells far better in America than it does in Japan.
What "shit" did I post? The personal attacks are getting really old.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
I'd money match a playtester.
This one's funny, because that move already does fuck up beginners.
This one's funny, because that move already does fuck up beginners.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
It still eclipsed by Melee though, and I'm not sure but doesn't PM have more playerbase than 64?
Your first post in this thread should be enough. Hell even that post I quoted has that lol
Gonzo The Great
Banned
What's wrong with it? Why are the accusations of favoritism "unfounded"? Sakurai's logic is fundamentally flawed. He mentioned Star Fox, yet it's the only franchise to LOSE content in the transition from Brawl to Smash 4. So no, I wouldn't accuse him of having a Star Fox bias if he suddenly decided to direct a new Star Fox game. It's all 20/20 hindsight. But if he directed a Star Fox game and then added Slippy Toad and James McCloud to the Smash roster, then yes, I'd probably say something. Sakurai constantly deflects and/or blames other people (the fans, the competitive scene, etc.) without ever taking the criticisms into consideration. Stubbornness is not a flattering characteristic.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
So?
And I don't know what's going on with PM after it wasn't allowed at Apex due to Nintendo's involvement and videos being taken off certain youtube channels.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Didn't they have tourneys still, and isn't PM appearing in EVO?
And well, if you look at SF, the older games still get big scenes. I'm not sure if Alpha 3 is still there though, but I know SFII and 3S are still big.
You're redirecting "favoritism" to his stubborness, which is hilarious. And most of the latter is even stupidity in that you think Sakurai never changes minds (you know, like real people have a tendency to change their minds over time). He takes criticism but he only picks what feels applicable, which is again a normal thing a person or a developer would do for better or worse.
And again, you're getting mad that a person added Black Pit even though his position is pretty much applicable with Lucina and Dr. Mario? You're complaining about Uprising content only visible in the 3DS game and even then only at a specific part of a game, with a bulk of the reason being "content easy to port over" rather than favoritism? Holy shit.
It died off on its own at our locals. People who want Melee gameplay... play Melee, and people who want Sm4sh gameplay, play Sm4sh. Before, it was just Melee or Brawl or PM, so obviously it was Melee and PM, but now we've phased out PM for Sm4sh (also easier for us to have the TVs for the latter).