TriggerShy
Member
I think it's cool that Sakurai is that confident in his playtesters.
Masahiro Sakurai: The Act of Balancing Smash
- Thread starter Masked Man
- Start date
Spinosaurus
Member
Most characters already have a hell of a time landing safely. This would be straight up broken.
Snacks the sober sea lion
Member
That's just making it a different metagame entirely. Baiting and punishing airdodges is a huge part of Smash 4's metagame. You take that away and you simply have a different game. Air dodges are the way they are in this game because they AREN'T forgiving, air dodging recklessly is the #1 reason you're going to get hit by smash attacks.
DrROBschiz
Member
I call bullshit. It has way more viable characters than any game before and we are still in the discovery phase.
Plus the game is subject to change with updates.
How long did it take for people to use anyone outside of Fox and Falco in tourneys for melee?
Smash 4 has 50 characters and counting and youd be silly to think we know everything there is to know.
Poster in this thread are being incredibly disrespectful to the sacred genre of cartoon mascot fighting.
This isn't some kid's game to be taken lightly, and Sakurai has proven himself time and time again to be an absolute fool. Does he really think a video game about an anthropomorphic talking fox fighting a mystical magic princess shouldn't be the pinnacle of serious sports gaming? What an idiot.
Sales speak for themselves. The Smash series has never succeeded in gaining sales or an enduring audience because of Sakurai's refusal to see the truth. You want a multimillion selling game? You get there by appealing to the elite, the hardcore who know that removing landing lag from neutral air is goddamn travesty. Not the casuals who gather around on a couch and play for fun. Until Sakurai realizes this plain fact he can forget about financial success.
This isn't some kid's game to be taken lightly, and Sakurai has proven himself time and time again to be an absolute fool. Does he really think a video game about an anthropomorphic talking fox fighting a mystical magic princess shouldn't be the pinnacle of serious sports gaming? What an idiot.
Sales speak for themselves. The Smash series has never succeeded in gaining sales or an enduring audience because of Sakurai's refusal to see the truth. You want a multimillion selling game? You get there by appealing to the elite, the hardcore who know that removing landing lag from neutral air is goddamn travesty. Not the casuals who gather around on a couch and play for fun. Until Sakurai realizes this plain fact he can forget about financial success.
Brainfreeze
Member
I mean, not to get personal, but for you I absolutely think it comes down to more than just some simple criticisms. I don't really frequent smash threads too much anymore, but when I do, 9/10 times, you're there complaining about something or fighting with somebody.
At this point, it's hard for me to believe there isn't some anger directed as Sakurai in there.
Quite a few others come off as rather bitter as well, which would not be a strong source for many criticisms.
Welcome to any fighting game ever. I think, thus far, the number of viable characters in a competitive Smash Bros. setting for Smash 4 is rather remarkable. Especially considering the game had to balance a myriad of other play styles and modes that most fighting games don't have to worry about, and the sheer size of the roster is rare as well. Sakurai deserves a lot of credit for making so many characters feel true to their origins and also balanced and fun to play both competitively and casually.
I'd say the 1# way you will get hit by a smash attack is if you land an areal near someone.
DrROBschiz
Member
Exactly!!!
It changes everything man. I had to learn the new mechanics but its makes combat intense with the mind games.
Timing offsets and precisions go a long way
Marth, sheik, falcon? Seriously guys Fox and Falco aren't as overused as you think and they took plenty of time to develop themselves.
Also pick Marth and try fighting a good sheik in 4 and then come back and tell me this game is balanced. The top tiers in this game are about as dominant as they were in the last few games.
LOL, is this a joke?
The most dominant pro players of Melee's early days, Ken, was a Marth main.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Still looks like a thread of people critiquing and counter-critiquing Sakurai's statements, to me.
Spinosaurus
Member
There isn't even a back room yet. There's not even a 2nd place that everyone agrees on. (Although everyone knows Sheik is the best...now anyway)
sheik was considered the best character in melee game for 5 years
it then switched to fox
Melee is incredibly balanced, especially for a game that is nearly 14 years old at this point. Calling Smash 4 balanced at this point is ridiculous... it's not even a year old yet! We won't know who's truly viable or not until we gather more data from a few more majors.
If Diddy dominates the metagame like Meta Knight did with Brawl, we are looking at an unbalanced game. But it's still way too early to know.
DrROBschiz
Member
Oh so my point doesn't stand because I didn't mention Marth?
You guys are jumping the gun. Even those top players acknowledge that there hasnt been nearly enough time and effort put in to discover everything
Ill grant you that those top characters are indeed dominant for now but give it time for challengers to emerge and hell even updates brought Diddy to a reasonable level
Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
Melee is an incredibly balanced game if you consider it an eight character roster game.
Spinosaurus
Member
I think they're trying to be cautious with Zelda since she's actually incredibly strong as is in FFA.
Yeah, but those Shulk buffs tho.
Yeah, I figured that but dorf? That I don't understand
Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
Re: Dark Pit: Why him and not Blood Falcon, for instance?
Brainfreeze
Member
Dorf has always been designed as a FFA character as well. His massive start-up and lag strives in chaos where people are less likely to notice and punish his moves.
If you want a stronger Dorf for 1v1, there's Captain Falcon. Not the nicest answer, I know, but I can completely understand why these decisions are made.
Beelzebufo
Banned
It would be really funny if it just said "I don't really balance at all, it's too hard."
Amsa wrecks with Yoshi, and Yoshi is one of the worst characters in the game. There are some great dorf, doc, and samus players, and obviously the notorious young link vs puff stuff that nobody likes lol.
I've seen some incredibly stuff with brawl's lower tiers but that doesn't make them good.
GiantBreadbug
Member
I think Smash 4 is pretty balanced.
I mean, it seems that way to me. Of course you have your good and bad but it seems pretty even generally. And I feel like I know what I'm saying for the most part.
Of course the details of the tiers will change but I feel like we can tell that Smash 4 isn't on Brawl levels of unbalanced.
I mean, it seems that way to me. Of course you have your good and bad but it seems pretty even generally. And I feel like I know what I'm saying for the most part.
Of course the details of the tiers will change but I feel like we can tell that Smash 4 isn't on Brawl levels of unbalanced.
Beelzebufo
Banned
Isn't that just a result of people having played be game for over a decade now? That doesn't mean it's balanced I don't think.
#1 in Japanese requests. Surprisingly Sakurai listens to home country. News at eleven.
There's 10 or 11 character that are considered tournament viable at this point. The game is 14 years old and has never been patched.
You'd be hard pressed to find a game that is two or three years into its life with 10 or 11 viable characters, let alone a 14 year old game. The only game that really comes to mind is Street Fighter IV, which has had numerous revisions over the years and a super tight relationship between the tournament scene and the dev team. Combofiend, a top player, now works for Capcom and is in constant contact with the dev team. The result is an incredibly balanced game. Obviously Smash, and most fighting games, don't have that luxury.
Amsa yeah, but the others aren't bad characters, they're just not top tier level. Like how Pit is viable in 4 but the top tiers are still leagues ahead of him.
Brainfreeze
Member
And DK Will does pheonomenal with DK in Smash 4 (without customs) despite DK's placing on the 'current' tier list. So what?
Amsa is an absolute god tier player who makes a weaker character work despite his weaknesses. The fact that one player can make a low tier character do well, or that a certain character has one good match up with a high tier (especially when that low tier is also played by a god tier player like Armada) is not a sign of a more tightly balanced game.
This is why tier lists require you to analyze a lot of data over a long period of time, because otherwise it becomes extremely difficult to separate a character from the people who play them.
Melee is about as balanced as most fighting games, where most end up with ~8 commonly seen characters in high level play, which most people seem to miss when criticizing Melee. I have little-to-no qualms about the balance of that game. But don't use a few exceptions to the rule to try and prop it up as something it's not.
As a F-Zero fan I think we are better off with color pallete blood falcon than character falcon lol.
But to answer the question I guess simply because KI:U was a lot more popular than whatever F-Zero game and Dark Pit was a liked character in the game.
Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
But I mean, the character is already there. Why not inflate the roster a bit more since you already went as far as giving character slots to recolours ? Not to mention Alph.
Beelzebufo
Banned
Yeah, pretty much this. You still have people begging for Hades even though we already have as many KI characters as games haha.
Dare I say Ganondorf is more or less blood falcon at this point?
I think we're starting to realize that Yoshi isn't as bad in Melee as we all thought. There's a new community tier list being made right now and many high level players are putting Yoshi in the top 10.
It's not like, say, Mewtwo, where Taj would destroy people with that character. Mewtwo is so bad... his tools are just terrible. That is an example of a god tier player beating people with a weak character.
Yoshi is actually good, we're just now learning how to control him.
It's not like, say, Mewtwo, where Taj would destroy people with that character. Mewtwo is so bad... his tools are just terrible. That is an example of a god tier player beating people with a weak character.
Yoshi is actually good, we're just now learning how to control him.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
More like Black Shadow or Deathborn.
Blood Falcon is not even a popular character for F-Zero fans.
And the nature of the beast is that characters that are easily identified to be stronger are gonna get a lot more investment on the community and develop the meta a lot quicker than others. Take wario for example, great character yet you barely see him except for Japanese players.
There's like 25 characters that are completely viable in the game and other 25 in which the better player will win out always. Zelda the worst character in the game is still gonna whoop ass as seen with Nairo. Game is pretty balanced for what it is even when a few obvious tweaks would level the sting field for 1v1 for all characters.
I'm a Samus main, I have a list of changes that will get her from E tier (was D tier pre patch) to S tier, but I'm still confident I have the tools to win most match ups (except Pikachu, you might as well leave the controller on the table if you try going against a Pikachu)
I guess I just don't know what your point is. Of course there are characters better than others. Diddy was beyond ridiculous and Shiek still dominates heavily. It's like Yun in AE and Sagat in Vanilla IV.
And the nature of the beast is that characters that are easily identified to be stronger are gonna get a lot more investment on the community and develop the meta a lot quicker than others. Take wario for example, great character yet you barely see him except for Japanese players.
There's like 25 characters that are completely viable in the game and other 25 in which the better player will win out always. Zelda the worst character in the game is still gonna whoop ass as seen with Nairo. Game is pretty balanced for what it is even when a few obvious tweaks would level the sting field for 1v1 for all characters.
I'm a Samus main, I have a list of changes that will get her from E tier (was D tier pre patch) to S tier, but I'm still confident I have the tools to win most match ups (except Pikachu, you might as well leave the controller on the table if you try going against a Pikachu)
Beelzebufo
Banned
I suppose that's fair. I didn't check to see the original argument, but I think it's fair to say Melee and 4 are about the same level of balanced, with maybe Melee having a lower floor?
that's the case for all fighting games
fighters with even half the cast as tournament viable are few and far between
Melee has 8, which is plenty
So... If this is the case then why are we saying 4 is balanced? We don't have data to go either way obviously and I never said it was an unbalanced mess like brawl, just that it isn't a well balanced game either. It's pretty much standard fare for smash at this point.
As the meta game develops chances are we will see less viable characters and not more, like nearly every other fighter. Occasionally we will get a character that shoots to the top once something is figured out but most will drop and go out of favor.
Spinosaurus
Member
Melee has plenty of variety at top play for its age. It helps that the top characters (Fox and Falco) are really fun to watch too because of how versatile and technical they are.
Beelzebufo
Banned
I mean if nothing else 4 is already way better than Brawl, which is making people think it could reach Melee levels.
I told my friends Yoshi was sweet from the beginning! They laughed at me!
Hmm, I don't pay a whole of attention to the comp scene, but I was under the impression that more and more people were dropping their mains for Fox or Falcon as the metagame matured.
Hmm, I don't pay a whole of attention to the comp scene, but I was under the impression that more and more people were dropping their mains for Fox or Falcon as the metagame matured.
This is what really bugs me. I see a lot of nerfs to the top tiers, but that's the wrong way approach; what we really need are buffs to the worst characters.
Spinosaurus
Member
Falcon is actually dropping in usage
