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Mass Effect 3 Spoiler Thread |OT2| Taste the Rainbow

Again with the vocal minority nonsense.

I read the text so maybe they really do go into the discussion with an open mind and they really investigated the arguments against the ending in the audio but from what I read, they applaud BioWare for taking such a bold chance. They also seem to think the problem people have with the ending is that its not necessarily a happy ending and they seem to lump everyone voicing their displeasure with the ending as a bunch of entitled children. I don't think I have the patience to listen to the audio.
 

Bowdz

Member
Thank you... I guess?



Well, I'm in silence, thinking what game I should play next. Thinking, but my mind is so...sad? I'm not sad, or upset...

To be honest I don't know what to feel.

As the game progressed I started to do some choices that I knew I could have chosen better. But it's okay, I could play again ME3 next year, or something. But I just don't see it coming. Not after I watched the endings I missed.

I'm sorry to to have to inform you, but it only gets worse. First, you will be speechless and apathetic. Next, you will begin to feel hollow inside as you realize one of you favorite series was destroyed in a ten minute span. Finally, you will feel anger towards the disregard of the writing team who pushed this through. Unfortunately, acceptance will not come.
 

Zen

Banned
From just reading the excerpts, they sound kind of willfully ignorant or something. There's definitely a big disconnect between what they experienced and what the rest of reality experienced.

It amazes me how Garnett, and basically all of games journalism can live in their own little bubble and not, y'know, read and actually investigate the issues at hand. It's an irresponsible and childlike practice as a person, and outright harmful as a journalist.

This is why so many people don't bother with games media these days, because the people whom are paid to play these games often times end up being generally less educated than the base they're speaking to or critiquing.
 

MC Safety

Member
On another note, here's a what if:

Imagine if they had run with the above, and then imagine for a second that the reapers actually came out and said to the other races that they could solve this problem with humanity's sacrifice

The Reapers were a force of nature, and making deals or proposals of any sort would dramatically weaken them.

Remember the "we tolerate you until we do not" speech? That's the Reapers in a nutshell. All the other nonsense with the harvesting, building new Reapers from liquified organics, etc., is crap tacked on to either extend gameplay or explain something that needs no explanation.

There's no discussion or negotiation with a Reaper. They come in and wipe stuff out and leave.
 

Metroidvania

People called Romanes they go the house?
Yeah, there's no way of proving that it's in fact a vocal minority, and all indicators point otherwise. If it was simply a vocal minority, Bioware wouldn't have addressed it.

Well, technically, out of the people who have purchased the game, I'm pretty sure that the people who are vocally complaining are in fact a minority of all of the ME3 game owners.

As to whether or not the overall percentage of people who completed the game and don't like the ending (be it vocal or not) are actually the minority or majority is something no one can realistically assess at this point in time. Bioware would have to do some massive polling.

From just reading the excerpts, they sound kind of willfully ignorant or something. There's definitely a big disconnect between what they experienced and what the rest of reality experienced.

You can't invalidate someone else's opinion, though. If they liked the endings for whatever reasons, you are not going to realistically change their mind and make them come to your point of view. Yeah, showing them the plot holes and faulty logic may help to persuade them, but if they didn't hate the ending, you can't just dismiss that as saying "they're not a true fan" or whatever.

Although I have still yet to see a concise argument in favor of the endings that doesn't rely on 'high art' or 'you just want a happy ending'.
 

daoster

Member
Even if it's a vocal minority, these are the biggest customers...the ones most likely to buy anything Bioware releases, if Bioware treats them right...

the Pareto principle...
 

Rapstah

Member
To allow them to find good candidates for creating a new reaper, so they could eventually solve the problem. The idea is that stuff like mass relay technology increases the damage, but the problem still exists and needs solving without it.

So, an imperfect solution basically.


On another note, here's a what if:

Imagine if they had run with the above, and then imagine for a second that the reapers actually came out and said to the other races that they could solve this problem with humanity's sacrifice

Potentially that would allow decisions you've made in past games to have a big impact. Get enough allies and they agree humanity deserves a chance to do things without the reapers. Piss enough people off and they stand by and tell you to fuck off and die, or actively fight you.

That could lead to interesting ramifications if you win and allow humanity to survive. What would humanity do when they have the power to destroy the reapers, and faced with a galaxy that collectively told them to go and die?

I don't think this would have worked as the overarching plot for ME3, but it would have made such an amazing twist at the end. "Alliance fleet reporting in... no further fleets reporting in, Sir".

*Every single race is with the Reapers on the other side*
 

Lucius86

Banned
I don't think this would have worked as the overarching plot for ME3, but it would have made such an amazing twist at the end. "Alliance fleet reporting in... no further fleets reporting in, Sir".

*Every single race is with the Reapers on the other side*

Man, that could have been awesomely done.

Too many would rage about an 'unhappy' ending though.
 

Zen

Banned
Well, technically, out of the people who have purchased the game, I'm pretty sure that the people who are vocally complaining are in fact a minority of all of the ME3 game owners.

As to whether or not the overall percentage of people who completed the game and don't like the ending (be it vocal or not) are actually the minority or majority is something no one can realistically assess at this point in time. Bioware would have to do some massive polling.

It's true that, in world where only 50% of people beat Mass Effect 2, the the amount of people complaining about the ending would likely be a minority of those whom purchased the game, especially at this point; my only point would be that, as biased as the sample sizes are (that being people whom post over the internet) every metric of feedback available has come back with an overwhelming negative reaction to that ending.

I'd say given such statistics, it's easier to assume that the general reaction to the products end has been leaning towards negative, there isn't that much of a divide between someone that will vote on a poll and a regular human being.

I think it's bordering on slander to call people unhappy with the ending a 'vocal minority' without context.
 

Zen

Banned
What's the concensus on the indoctrination theory?

A well put together theory that probably isn't true but is arguably a much better ending than what we got. I think if it had been indoctrination, Bioware would have handled this situation differently, but I suppose the ending content initiatives will let us know once and for all.
 

Zeliard

Member
To allow them to find good candidates for creating a new reaper, so they could eventually solve the problem. The idea is that stuff like mass relay technology increases the damage, but the problem still exists and needs solving without it.

So, an imperfect solution basically.

That plot has more holes in it than swiss cheese, and the notion that a human reaper is finally the one to solve the mystery "because humans are special" is pretty bad. Not only is it comically anthropocentric (bag of dicks), but it doesn't even make sense.

What does building a Reaper have to do with stopping the spread of dark energy? They're smarter than the average bear? The thousands of Reapers they've built over countless millenia couldn't figure anything out (except "must build more Reapers"), but humans are finally the key? Do the Reapers gather around like a group of scientists in dark space - where they're supposed to be lying dormant like Lovecraftian monsters - attempting to figure out how to save the universe in those intervening 50,000 years?

Harbinger: "well fuck, the Protheans were also worthless, just like the rest of us. Let's keep looking for that special Reaper - because obviously, a Reaper would have all the answers, since we rock even though we've failed every step of the way - and leading races to technology that spreads dark energy far quicker than if we had left them on their own. Surely we'll find that special someone as we further nudge the universe towards extinction."

The key isn't to replace one bad plot with another. :p
 
Well, I want that t-shirt now.
Make the word ending in three differnt colours.

Something like this?
CuVqr.jpg
Yeah, I know, my PS skills aren't that great. But I took a stock photo, just like BioWare does! I'm learning!
 
I think the majority of the people that have a problem with the ending are like me. I don't demand a new ending, I don't expect a new ending, I don't think I deserve a new ending. I just think the ending we got was universe destroyingly bad, so I'm voicing my opinion. The whole entitlement bullshit muddies the waters and is used to discredit the arguments against the ending. The people protesting the ending and demanding a change are a miniscule vocal minority. Why not forget about them and have an intelligent conversation about the ending from multiple perspectives. Instead they had a discussion with a group of people all on the same side of the argument.
 
Man, that could have been awesomely done.

Too many would rage about an 'unhappy' ending though.

As long as it's something plausible and within the control of the player (i.e. a result of their choices), I don't think people would be unhappy.

Now if on the other hand this happened even if you were the galaxy's best diplomat and spent the rest of your free time saving kittens, puppies, and orphans then yes people would get angry and rightly so I think. It would trivialise anything you've done to the contrary, just like the current ending does.


That plot has more holes in it than swiss cheese, and the notion that a human reaper is finally the one to solve the mystery "because humans are special" is pretty bad. Not only is it comically anthropocentric (bag of dicks), but it doesn't even make sense.

It's certainly not perfect, but I'd venture it's a hell of a lot better than what we got.

The "humans are special" trope already exists within the ME universe. All this does is repurpose it.

(Don't get too hung up on my phrasing by the way. I seem to remember that the original phrasing was more along the lines of humanity having more variation or something that was a bit better justified)
 

The_Monk

Member
I'm sorry to to have to inform you, but it only gets worse. First, you will be speechless and apathetic. Next, you will begin to feel hollow inside as you realize one of you favorite series was destroyed in a ten minute span. Finally, you will feel anger towards the disregard of the writing team who pushed this through. Unfortunately, acceptance will not come.

By the Goddess! I must find a solution before it's too late.
I think it's too late.
 

Metroidvania

People called Romanes they go the house?
I'd say given such statistics, it's easier to assume that the general reaction to the products end has been leaning towards negative, there isn't that much of a divide between someone that will vote on a poll and a regular human being.

I agree, but without Bioware input, no one will ever be able to prove things one way or the other.

Right now, Jessica Merizan and Chris Priestly are supposedly collecting every scrap of feedback on the endings from everywhere on the Internet. Or at least major areas of Gaming forums such as Reddit/BSN/SA/NeoGaf, etc.

I have no idea on how they could compile that into anything resembling a consensus, especially on how to view the data objectively.

I think it's bordering on slander to call people unhappy with the ending a 'vocal minority' without context.

Yeah, it's being used as a 'shield' by people who disagree with the ending-haters.
 
Unfortunately, acceptance will not come.

Meh, it did for me. I'm over it mostly, and I'm just left remembering all the amazing moments in the series. Life's too short to kick up a fuss over a video game ending.

It's not like a comedy show where the last thing you hear is the only thing you remember.
Resolving the Genophage, exploring Thessia with Liara and Javik and hearing the banter, seeing the Quarians make their choice to wage and ultimately lose a war with the Geth. Charging around the Turian moon with reapers stomping around the background wreaking havok.

Now that I think of it, Mass Effect 3 was, for all intents and purposes, fucken awesome.
 

Lime

Member
Another day, another ME3 spoiler podcast.

http://www.theverge.com/gaming/2012/3/26/2898253/mass-effect-3-ending-talk

It is a pretty all star lineup.

All-star? All I see are game journalists.

EDIT: Holy shit:

Fran: Everyone had a problem with the space kid.

Adam: I actually wondered if it was a ghost in the machine.

Arthur: It seemed like a pretty consistent thematic thing, that you're haunted by this ghost representative of the people you can't save, and the things you can't change. And at the ending, it's in your face as this thing you can't change. From a literary perspective, i think that that's slick.

Adam: It's not as precise as people read it as. At this point, it could be hallucinatory. In a literary fashion, they have left it somewhat open. But don't take it as something you're fighting against, otherwise you're not going to be satisfied.

Arthur: The main complaint that I see is that your choices mean nothing.

Kevin: I gotta disagree with that one.

Arthur: That's the big complaining elephant in the room, that there's this big group of people that are saying "all the decisions I made across three games mean nothing." And I kind of wonder–

Adam: Are you supposed to get a prize? I don't want to mock too much, and a lot of people have lauded me for not mocking, but as this thing has gone on, I've become increasingly frustrated that – the game doesn't owe you anything. That's actually something you're supposed to get out of it yourself.

I do wonder if culturally we're really at such a state of reward for doing anything that the pleasure of the art is not satisfactory. Or because gamerscore seems to count that much that somebody wanted something so unique that can identify them as to how they played the game and just that the general satisfaction of playing an exceptional game, an exceptional game series, isn't enough. And that's a little bit worrisome to me, I've gotta say.

Talk about missing the point and failing to research the issue at all. How come this whole debate is so one-sided from popular gaming media? Why not invite someone into the podcast that actually *knows* the basics of storytelling? Instead we always get Teenager 1 and Teenager 2 talking about their knee-jerk reactions, without knowing how to critically and analytically engage a topic.
 
I read the text so maybe they really do go into the discussion with an open mind and they really investigated the arguments against the ending in the audio but from what I read, they applaud BioWare for taking such a bold chance. They also seem to think the problem people have with the ending is that its not necessarily a happy ending and they seem to lump everyone voicing their displeasure with the ending as a bunch of entitled children. I don't think I have the patience to listen to the audio.

They're super dismissive and mocking in the podcast. Saying there are no plot holes at all, that the catalyst totally makes sense in a thematic perspective. The games ends on a hopeful note, they're fully into the catalyst argument. This is so frustrating to listen to. Francesca is like don't dig too deep.
 

Tex117

Banned
Another day, another ME3 spoiler podcast.

http://www.theverge.com/gaming/2012/...-3-ending-talk

It is a pretty all star lineup.

Many of these guys are missing the point.

The point is that the ending was a sesimic shift in the underlying themes of Mass Effect.

Not having every choice I ever made reflected...fine...I can deal with that if I got an ending that made sense with the last three games.

That dude mentioned Gladiator and that guy dying...Yeah...he did...but the ending was awesome because all conflicts were resolved...

That and the complete circular logic of a bs ending.

I mean...On its face, I didn't mind the ending....When you dig...its awful...
 

Rapstah

Member
Many of these guys are missing the point.

The point is that the ending was a sesimic shift in the underlying themes of Mass Effect.

Not having every choice I ever made reflected...fine...I can deal with that if I got an ending that made sense with the last three games.

That dude mentioned Gladiator and that guy dying...Yeah...he did...but the ending was awesome because all conflicts were resolved...

That and the complete circular logic of a bs ending.

I mean...On its face, I didn't mind the ending....When you dig...its awful...

Exactly, Gladiator is a perfect example of doing right what ME3's ending did wrong. ME3's ending is like if the main charater of Gladiator died valiantly by ninjas in the corridor up into the Colosseum. "He killed all the ninjas so it's resolved even if they killed him with poison!"
 

Hero

Member
More idiots pointing out things that aren't the problem with the ending. How do these people have jobs as journalists?
 
I'm way too much of a good guy to tell Joker not to go for EDI. Even though I think she's a stupid sexbot and the whole thing is ridiculous. :(
 

Lime

Member
They're not journalists, they're critics.

Enthusiasts, you mean. "Critics" would be an incorrect predicate for anyone failing to engage a subject with an analytical and critical mindset.

EDIT: Mind you that I'm not trying to use ad hominem arguments. I'm simply pointing out that critic is a wrong predicate for these people, because they do not know how to analyse or criticize anything video game related, judging from empirical evidence.
 

JerkShep

Member
I was about to hit the Acceptance stage and I listened to an extract of the conversation with Sovereign. Oh my god there are some many plot holes I just can't process them :(
The kid should have said: "We kill organics to protect synthetics because organics eventually will kill synthetics". It's still make little sense, but at least more than the thing we have in the game.
 
More idiots pointing out things that aren't the problem with the ending. How do these people have jobs as journalists?

They spend 99percent of their time copy and pasting publishers PR or making reviews that simply list how many things are in a game.

These people using words like 'theme' and 'pathos' is like watching a sloth try and use a switch blade.
 
That dude mentioned Gladiator and that guy dying...Yeah...he did...but the ending was awesome because all conflicts were resolved...

More to the point, Maximus was a death seeker who only stuck around to get revenge, and out of his duty to Rome. He accomplishes both of these goals before dying and going off to rejoin his family in the afterlife. It's also pretty obvious that he'll probably be killed by going against the current Emperor, so it's not like his death is a WTF moment at the last second.

This certainly doesn't follow in ME3 (though you might choose to have your Shepard act as a death seeker). Shepard might have a LI, all his friends, a duty to help rebuild. The (potential) sacrifice is forced and comes from nowhere and that's why it's bad.

Apparently basic media analysis skills is not something these guys possess.
 
"This is the most successful trilogy narratively that I have ever seen"

Holy shit

"Entitlement, group think, mob mentality"

Oh god I should just stop listening
 

HK-47

Oh, bitch bitch bitch.
I don't think this would have worked as the overarching plot for ME3, but it would have made such an amazing twist at the end. "Alliance fleet reporting in... no further fleets reporting in, Sir".

*Every single race is with the Reapers on the other side*

Maybe, but it still really fucks up the universe and continues the humans are special nonsense.
 
Another day, another ME3 spoiler podcast.

http://www.theverge.com/gaming/2012/3/26/2898253/mass-effect-3-ending-talk

It is a pretty all star lineup.

Woa, I had no idea Mordin could live. Damn this game is amazing... every new thing I learn, makes me more baffled on the ending. It really shows that it was a hidden process.

Also I like Adam somewhat, but he tends to always go against the popular opinion and defend it hard. So it's no surprise where he stands on the matter.


"This is the most successful trilogy narratively that I have ever seen"

Holy shit
I'd agree... what amazing trilogy are you standing by?
 

Cartman86

Banned
More to the point, Maximus was a death seeker who only stuck around to get revenge, and out of his duty to Rome. He accomplishes both of these goals before dying and going off to rejoin his family in the afterlife. It's also pretty obvious that he'll probably be killed by going against the current Emperor, so it's not like his death is a WTF moment at the last second.

This certainly doesn't follow in ME3 (though you might choose to have your Shepard act as a death seeker). Shepard might have a LI, all his friends, a duty to help rebuild. The (potential) sacrifice is forced and comes from nowhere and that's why it's bad.

Apparently basic media analysis skills is not something these guys possess.

Not to mention the reasons why we care about what happens in endings ultimately doesn't matter to the point here. I didn't like the ending. Sheppard's death did nothing for me. Why? I can guess, but really my being who I am creates a variety of reasons why I might not like it. We can sit down and discuss these reasons (which is what film criticism and the like are built upon), but again all that matters in the end is that the ending of Gladiator worked for me and Mass Effect 3 didn't. It has nothing to do with entitlement or whatever weird pseudo-psychology they come up with to explain how people can't like the ending that they do.
 

Rapstah

Member
Maybe, but it still really fucks up the universe and continues the humans are special nonsense.

It could absolutely have worked as a worst case scenario ending though, and obviously humans would be special if everyone else actively joined the Reapers.
 

Zomba13

Member
All-star? All I see are game journalists.

EDIT: Holy shit:



Talk about missing the point and failing to research the issue at all. How come this whole debate is so one-sided from popular gaming media? Why not invite someone into the podcast that actually *knows* the basics of storytelling? Instead we always get Teenager 1 and Teenager 2 talking about their knee-jerk reactions, without knowing how to critically and analytically engage a topic.

I'm still very, very shocked by this. PRetty much no one on that side seem to even understand why people are upset. The best I think is Jeff Gerstmann. He said on the bombcast something to the effect of not really liking the ending and how Shepard shitting in his hand and throwing it at the camera would have been more honest.

Is there really some grand Bioware/EA conspiracy with the media forcing them to dismiss peoples claims of the ending sucking? Or do they really just not get it and can't even take 5 mins to do some skimming on why people don't like the endings?
 

HK-47

Oh, bitch bitch bitch.
It could absolutely have worked as a worst case scenario ending though, and obviously humans would be special if everyone else actively joined the Reapers.

Ahh but that would require lots of work and dev time Bioware wont get.
 

Sojgat

Member
From just reading the excerpts, they sound kind of willfully ignorant or something. There's definitely a big disconnect between what they experienced and what the rest of reality experienced.

Ignorance willful or otherwise seems to be the only explanation. They don't really seem to understand what people are upset about, thinking it's just gamer entitlement is reductive and uninformed. Again it's all just their opinions, but I'm suprised because some of these people usually come off as far more intelligent than they do here.
 
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