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Mass Effect 3 Spoiler Thread |OT2| Taste the Rainbow

wat.

Didn't see anything on EDI or the Geth, and for some reason Garrus made it back to the Normandy, don't know how. Then there's the last scene with Shepherd in the rubble and breathing - I don't even... what? Was it a dream? What's going on!
 

DTKT

Member
wat.

Didn't see anything on EDI or the Geth, and for some reason Garrus made it back to the Normandy, don't know how. Then there's the last scene with Shepherd in the rubble and breathing - I don't even... what? Was it a dream? What's going on!

About Garrus. Bioware decided to delete a scene where the Normandy swoops in and saved both of your squadmembers. We don't know why.

Shepard breathing - A nice little "easter egg" for anyone with enough EMS. It means nothing and will have no impact on the rest of the series. It's a basically a nice little pat on the back for doing most of the terrible fetch quests.

And no, it wasn't all a dream.
 
Then the post-credit sequence.... I don't even... BIOWARE!!!!

EDIT: Subscribing to this theory whether or not Bioware intended it, it makes the most sense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ythY_GkEBck

In fact, this is now canon as far as I'm concerned because it turns the ending from awful wth is this to just another cliffhanger - I can deal with that.
 

televator

Member
We seem to loose so many to that theory... I hope there's good rate on them coming back to just accepting that the ending sucks and it likely always will.
 

John Harker

Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
Okay well, you can choose to impose whatever non-canonical twist that makes you feel better about it. Fact of the matter is that he said so in the game that the Reapers were its' solution to chaos. Speculation beyond that is just non-productive embellishment if we want to determine exactly what it was, because it simply can't be done with any reasonable level of certainty.

The whole point is that it's open to interpretation. That's why the details in the hows and the whys are left out - so you can deduce your own motivation. That's how I filled them in. The other poster went a different way. No ones right or wrong. They went out of the way to create an ending for threads like this. They just did a poor job of it.
 

televator

Member
The whole point is that it's open to interpretation. That's why the details in the hows and the whys are left out - so you can deduce your own motivation. That's how I filled them in. The other poster went a different way. No ones right or wrong. They went out of the way to create an ending for threads like this. They just did a poor job of it.

It's one thing to interpret based on what we know from the game (as Indoc theory tried). It's another to embellish. Either way, have at it, but just note that I don't find it particularly interesting. I don't mean to sound insulting. I'm just a dry empiricist when it comes to stuff like this.
 

hateradio

The Most Dangerous Yes Man
About Garrus. Bioware decided to delete a scene where the Normandy swoops in and saved both of your squadmembers. We don't know why.

Shepard breathing - A nice little "easter egg" for anyone with enough EMS. It means nothing and will have no impact on the rest of the series. It's a basically a nice little pat on the back for doing most of the terrible fetch quests.

And no, it wasn't all a dream.
You mean MP, since you can get a high EMS without doing most of those quests.
 
About Garrus. Bioware decided to delete a scene where the Normandy swoops in and saved both of your squadmembers. We don't know why.

Shepard breathing - A nice little "easter egg" for anyone with enough EMS. It means nothing and will have no impact on the rest of the series. It's a basically a nice little pat on the back for doing most of the terrible fetch quests.

And no, it wasn't all a dream.

Maybe it didn't fit with the stranded planet ending? Is there any decent theory at all on how they even ended up there too that doesn't involve indoctrination?

I wouldn't say the breathing part means nothing either, but it probably won't have an impact unless Bioware decide to rewrite their ending and do the hero revive thing in a sequel or DLC.

The destroy ending is the only one where Shepard survives if you have a high enough EMS. In all the others, he or she dies. And if you play the multiplayer, I don't think you even need to do any of the fetch quests at all.

Just goes to show EA's forced dumb fucking design on the game. You can do all the fetch quests and not have 5000+ EMS to get the most complete ending if you don't play multiplayer, but you can go through the multiplayer, and not have to do maybe a single fetch mission. Brilliant.
 

AniHawk

Member
i know someone who is convinced the indoctrination theory is correct and was intended to be there from the start, despite evidence to the contrary from the rushed shit and stuff that doesn't make sense in general in me2 and me3.
 
If the Indoc theory would be correct, it would resolve even less than the ending currently does. Shepard would wake up in Londen, covered by debris... And then what? The Reapers are still there, people are still getting Huskified and the Citadel is still up in the sky.

People are stupid.
 

Gui_PT

Member
If the Indoc theory would be correct, it would resolve even less than the ending currently does. Shepard would wake up in Londen, covered by debris... And then what? The Reapers are still there, people are still getting Huskified and the Citadel is still up in the sky.

People are stupid.


What would be better is.... Shepard had been turned into a Husk many many years ago.

When you're a husk, you go into a dream mode. So ME 1, 2 and 3 are all a dream of his.

The Reapers won because they were unchallenged and the cycle continues.




MAKE IT HAPPEN BIOWARE.
 
Clearly everything after the Beacon on Eden Prime at the start of the first game is just a vision of the future. They don't show the rest because Shep just wakes up in the Normandy sick bay and wanders lazily around the galaxy solving all the problems just before they happen and finally just straps nukes to all the Reapers while they're still asleep. Would have been a boring game.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ythY_GkEBck

In fact, this is now canon as far as I'm concerned because it turns the ending from awful wth is this to just another cliffhanger - I can deal with that.

On one hand I have to give it to the fan base for coming up with something like this, on the other its the worst sort of pedantic fuckery out there. It fits the bill perfectly for people in denial about how writers can just fuck up from time to time.

"There's gotta be a better answer!"

Well no, sometimes there just isn't. People dun fuck up and that's that.
 

Massa

Member
On one hand I have to give it to the fan base for coming up with something like this, on the other its the worst sort of pedantic fuckery out there. It fits the bill perfectly for people in denial about how writers can just fuck up from time to time.

"There's gotta be a better answer!"

Well no, sometimes there just isn't. People dun fuck up and that's that.

There are obvious hints in the game. Whether they were simply leftovers from scratched planned endings or not is up to interpretation, but calling people sheep or in denial is not the way to go about it.
 

Rapstah

Member
There are obvious hints in the game. Whether they were simply leftovers from scratched planned endings or not is up to interpretation, but calling people sheep or in denial is not the way to go about it.

But there really aren't obvious hints in the game. At no point is it the most apparent explanation for what's going on. We have the dream trees appearing around the conduid, but the whole sequence surrounding that is so sketchily made that you can't say that anything there points to anything. In fact that goes for the whole game: a lot of it is so sketchily made in at least some aspect that a far closer explanation for everything odd is that it's just odd.
 
But there really aren't obvious hints in the game. At no point is it the most apparent explanation for what's going on. We have the dream trees appearing around the conduid, but the whole sequence surrounding that is so sketchily made that you can't say that anything there points to anything. In fact that goes for the whole game: a lot of it is so sketchily made in at least some aspect that a far closer explanation for everything odd is that it's just odd.

in ME2 shepard is exposed 1 reaper artifact and 1 strange spear artifact(which he decides to keep in cargo hold).both have led to indoctrination of most ppl exposed to it.
 

Rapstah

Member
in ME2 shepard is exposed 1 reaper artifact and 1 strange spear artifact(which he decides to keep in cargo hold).both have led to indoctrination of most ppl exposed to it.

I have no idea what this spear artifact is, but the Rho Object in Arrival isn't actually canonical for characters that didn't play Arrival. It shows Shepard a vision of Reapers invading the galaxy, but the plot of the entire DLC pack then makes a point of that you explicitly stop that invasion from happening with non-standard game over cut scenes showing the invasion occuring if you fail. While it's probably possible to retcon the story into Shepard having been indoctrinated there, it's not at all what is written now and it wouldn't work at all for those who did not play Arrival.
 
I have no idea what this spear artifact is, but the Rho Object in Arrival isn't actually canonical for characters that didn't play Arrival. It shows Shepard a vision of Reapers invading the galaxy, but the plot of the entire DLC pack then makes a point of that you explicitly stop that invasion from happening with non-standard game over cut scenes showing the invasion occuring if you fail. While it's probably possible to retcon the story into Shepard having been indoctrinated there, it's not at all what is written now and it wouldn't work at all for those who did not play Arrival.

i forgot that name of side mission in the end u get a huge spear object,which reduces it self to baskeball size.
 
I've given the ending some though. The way it is now just saddens me. I'm accepting the IT as the canon ending to a game that will never have a sequel, and I take the upcoming ending DLC and the actual indoctrination, beeing false.
 

John Harker

Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
Then the post-credit sequence.... I don't even... BIOWARE!!!!

EDIT: Subscribing to this theory whether or not Bioware intended it, it makes the most sense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ythY_GkEBck

In fact, this is now canon as far as I'm concerned because it turns the ending from awful wth is this to just another cliffhanger - I can deal with that.

I just watched that whole 20 minute video. Now I feel indoctrinated.
 

Son1x

Member
Before I got my new PC, Mass Effect was one of the games that I really wanted to play but couldn't. Then early last year, after getting the new PC, I bought it. I played it for a few hours but then put it off for some reason (was on Noveria, haven't done Feros or Liara yet). A month ago, my friend started playing the first Mass Effect and that got me motivated. Took me a month to get through all three games. Really enjoyed them a lot.

Somehow I expected the whole third game to be lackluster. I ended up being surprised and ME3 was, except for the ending, a really nice experience. As for the ending. I heard about it so much, everyone I know that played ME3 had only bad words about it, but I still didn't imagine it would be that bad. There was always this hope inside me for a solid ending. Oh well...
 
Can someone explain the whole Marauder Shields thing to me? I'm assuming its a reference to how you read the name + shield bar tag of a marauder, but what is all this other stuff?
 

Complistic

Member
We seem to loose so many to that theory... I hope there's good rate on them coming back to just accepting that the ending sucks and it likely always will.

The ending is so terrible that I can't blame people for wanting to look at it a different way to cope with it.
 

Gui_PT

Member
It's a very convincing argument.

GAH! No it's not!

The radio working when people think it shouldn't?
Bushes being in 2 places in 1 game?
People having headaches? (btw that's the worst one. shepard never has headaches, he gets that...thing at the end because the illusive man is controlling him)
Shepard bleeding connected to him shooting anderson? Everything fucking blew up on him! His suit fucking melted, of course he's going to have major injuries.

I could go on and on and on and disprove every bit of "evidence" that is presented in that video. Heck anyone that's decently intelligent can

It's just so stupid. That explanation makes no sense man.
 
Can someone explain the whole Marauder Shields thing to me? I'm assuming its a reference to how you read the name + shield bar tag of a marauder, but what is all this other stuff?
Marauder Shields is the last enemy you encounter in the game

GAH! No it's not!

The radio working when people think it shouldn't?
Bushes being in 2 places in 1 game?
People having headaches? (btw that's the worst one. shepard never has headaches, he gets that...thing at the end because the illusive man is controlling him)
Shepard bleeding connected to him shooting anderson? Everything fucking blew up on him! His suit fucking melted, of course he's going to have major injuries.

I could go on and on and on and disprove every bit of "evidence" that is presented in that video. Heck anyone that's decently intelligent can

It's just so stupid. That explanation makes no sense man.

The Indoc theory is shit not only because of all of the stuff you mentioned, but as an ending, it's shittier than the one we have now. Shep is still on Earth taking a nap while everyone dies around him
 
GAH! No it's not!

The radio working when people think it shouldn't?
Bushes being in 2 places in 1 game?
People having headaches? (btw that's the worst one. shepard never has headaches, he gets that...thing at the end because the illusive man is controlling him)
Shepard bleeding connected to him shooting anderson? Everything ****ing blew up on him! His suit ****ing melted, of course he's going to have major injuries.

I could go on and on and on and disprove every bit of "evidence" that is presented in that video. Heck anyone that's decently intelligent can

It's just so stupid. That explanation makes no sense man.

Shepard "breathing" back in a pile of rubble in London? And how exactly does the illusive man exert physical control over Shepard and more importantly, Anderson?
 

Gui_PT

Member
Shepard "breathing" back in a pile of rubble in London? And how exactly does the illusive man exert control over Shepard and more importantly, Anderson?

You saw rubble, not rubble in london. The destroy ending is him basically blowing crap up. He can be anywhere

I can also counter that with "EDI having a VAGINA and surviving the Destroy ending?"

Wait.... How did he control them? Did you play the game at all? He spent years experimenting with husks and reaper technology so he could control people and the reapers. He's controlling them because he altered himself using the knowledge he gathered with all those experiments.
 
You saw rubble, not rubble in london. The destroy ending is him basically blowing crap up. He can be anywhere

I can also counter that with "EDI having a VAGINA and surviving the Destroy ending?"

Wait.... How did he control them? Did you play the game at all? He spent years experimenting with husks and reaper technology so he could control people and the reapers. He's controlling them because he altered himself using the knowledge he gathered with all those experiments.

All those experiments proved was that the reapers and their creations could be controlled - not unmodified specimens. I could accept Shepard for his implants, but the lack of the control chip was emphasized immediately before the ending, and Anderson just doesn't have any reason to be subject to the kind of tech TIM was developing.
 

Gui_PT

Member
All those experiments proved was that the reapers and their creations could be controlled - not unmodified specimens. I could accept Shepard for his implants, but the lack of the control chip was emphasized immediately before the ending, and Anderson just doesn't have any reason to be subject to the kind of tech TIM was developing.

How do you know humans can't be controlled?

This has never been implanted on humans. The illusive man was the first. You have no way of knowing who it'd work on or not.
 
How do you know humans can't be controlled?

This has never been implanted on humans. The illusive man was the first. You have no way of knowing who it'd work on or not.

But the game itself establishes the fact that control requires the reaper implants as explained in the Cerberus video logs.
 

Aske

Member
But there really aren't obvious hints in the game. At no point is it the most apparent explanation for what's going on. We have the dream trees appearing around the conduid, but the whole sequence surrounding that is so sketchily made that you can't say that anything there points to anything. In fact that goes for the whole game: a lot of it is so sketchily made in at least some aspect that a far closer explanation for everything odd is that it's just odd.

That's exactly the problem - there are aspects of the game that strongly suggest indoctrination, but they're all ambiguous to varying degrees. And game design and production being what it is, it's just as easy to dismiss them as weird videogame shit than to view them as evidence of a greater sub-plot. As we all know, games aren't movies. In a movie, every shot is carefully selected. Fuck-ups still happen, but it makes much more sense to view glaring inconsistencies as directorial choices than it does with a game.

Many of the indoctrination theory arguments can be dismissed due to videogaming conventions. Shepard has infinite ammo...because it's a videogame. Shepard can't roll away from Harbinger's beam...because it's a videogame. Joker left the battle and somehow saved the squad...because it's a videogame. Etc, etc. But just because these can be explained by videogame conventions, it doesn't follow that all the supposed evidence can be written off so easily. The dream trees appearing around the beam are hard to explain. The fact that Shepard can only survive if the Destroy ending is picked when Synthesis is the hardest to unlock, and is generally pushed as the 'correct' ending - and when Destroy is specifically supposed to kill him - is even harder to explain. And whether it was intentional or not, Shepard does appear to exhibit all the classic signs of slow exposure to indoctrination during the game.

After watching the indoctrination theory video, I was convinced that Bioware had set the whole thing up; because as crazy as the theory is (Bioware released an unfinished game on purpose with a plan to deliver the real ending as DLC) it felt significantly more plausible to me than a literal interpretation of the ending. Bioware's writers are far from perfect, but I honestly can't believe that even they would come up with the ending as rote, for all the reasons we've been discussing. It's not just bad, it's inexplicable, and goes against all the themes thusfar presented in the game (diversity, peace, no meaningful difference between synthetics and organics). Yet synthesis perfectly echos Saren's goals under indoctrination. And control perfectly echos the goals of the Illusive Man under indoctrination.

At this point, I lean towards the idea that Bioware initially created the current ending as nothing more than an indoctrination sequence, but due to time restrictions cut off the twist and ended up converting the dream into the 'real' ending - either with a plan to revise it via an epilogue that fell through until the complaints rolled in; or simply hoping that people would be satisfied with it despite the fact that it makes no sense. That would explain why the indoc theory fits so well, but also why the epilogue DLC wasn't forthcoming according to a sensible production plan to finish the ending.

I still haven't really heard evidence to suggest that indoc theory couldn't have been written in from the start of ME3's production and then cut or put on hold, with remnants still remaining in the game. And the only explanation for the inconsistencies and general awfulness of the ending is 'bad writing' - nothing that couches the ending in the context of the game and has it make sense on a narrative level.

For these reasons, I expect the epilogue DLC to be in line with indoctrination theory. I think it's a plot thread that existed in the game which was dropped after being worked into several scenes, that these scenes were spotted by players, and that the idea will be resurrected by Bioware for the DLC. I don't think an indoctrination epilogue will prove beyond all doubt that Bioware has been planning this from the get go, because they clearly didn't have a big stunt planned to hold back the real ending and release it later.

Something certainly went very wrong with the production of the end of the game, but what that something was, and how much better things would be if Bioware had sufficient time to finish, is anyone's guess.
 

Gui_PT

Member
But the game itself establishes the fact that control requires the reaper implants as explained in the Cerberus video logs.


What I remember the videologs mentioning about implants is that he was putting them on his soldiers so they'd become stronger, not that only people with implants could be controlled. Martin sheen put those implants in himself to become stronger and to control minds .

And didn't the reapers control Saren before he had implants?
Liara's mom didn't have implants either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSnGAwOtVIs#t=7m35s
 

Cromat

Member
I also think Bioware are going to adopt the Indoctrination Theory, if only because it is the easiest way to salvage it and turn it into something somewhat surprising and coherent.
 
What I remember the videologs mentioning about implants is that he was putting them on his soldiers so they'd become stronger, not that only people with implants could be controlled. Martin sheen put those implants in himself to become stronger and to control minds .

And didn't the reapers control Saren before he had implants?
Liara's mom didn't have implants either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSnGAwOtVIs#t=7m35s

The kind of control initially exerted on Saren and Benezia is not the same as the control studied by TIM. Indoctrination warps the subjects perspective such that they freely choose to fulfill the desire's of the Reapers. Implants enhance this effect to the point of absolute physical control, though Saren demonstrates that a strong enough will can still break the control. Were the situation in the Citadel real, Shepard should not have been subject to TIM.
 

Veezy

que?
On the indoctrination theory, Family Guy Season Six Episode Five, Stewie Kills Lois

Brian: Hey, Stewie,we got a postcard from Peter and Lois on the cruise. What are you doing?
Stewie: Oh, hello, Brian. Well, you recall my complaining about Lois and the fat man not taking me with them?
Brian: Yeah. Yes.
S: Well, you said I didn't have it in me to kill Lois, so I was just running a simulation to find out exactly how killing her and taking over the world would play out for me.
B: Yeah? How did that go?
S: Not well, Brian. Not well. I suppose I'm not ready to kill Lois or take over the world... yet.
B: So, what you're saying is that what you experienced in the simulation didn't really happen or even matter.
S: Yes. That's correct.
B: So it was sort of like a dream.
S: No. It was a simulation.
B: Yes, but theoretically, if someone watched the events of that simulation from start to finish, only to find out that none of it really happened, I mean, you don't think that would be just like a giant middle finger to them?
S: Well hopefully, they would have enjoyed the ride.
B: I don't know, man. I think you piss a lot of people off that way.


Seriously, even if it's true, which it's probably not due to the amount of credit you'd have to give Bioware (the the amount of forgiveness you'd have to give them for not including a pretty important story element), it's still shoddy writing because nothing we did matters. At all.
 

Gui_PT

Member
The kind of control initially exerted on Saren and Benezia is not the same as the control studied by TIM. Indoctrination warps the subjects perspective such that they freely choose to fulfill the desire's of the Reapers. Implants enhance this effect to the point of absolute physical control, though Saren demonstrates that a strong enough will can still break the control. Were the situation in the Citadel real, Shepard should not have been subject to TIM.



Yeah but why did you ignore the fact that the video doesn't mention he could only control people with implants?

And again, these implants the illusive man put on himself were a first. You don't know how they would work and how strong they'd be.
If regular indoctrination works with people without implants, why wouldn't this SUPER HYPER MEGA GIGA POWERFUL Indoctrination do the same?

You don't know what kind of power it has and you don't know if shepard could break free or not.

You're just guessing, like most desperate fans that want to believe the stupid, idiotic, retarded indoctrination theory

I could make an obvious joke about this one.

They do look too perky, considering how old she is...
 

televator

Member
Can someone explain the whole Marauder Shields thing to me? I'm assuming its a reference to how you read the name + shield bar tag of a marauder, but what is all this other stuff?

He's the lone marauder that you encounter when you approach the beam toward the ending of the game. It's joked that he actually took it upon himself to save you from the ending --in true reaper fashion -- by killing you. It's an act of mercy and he is a goddam hero for it.
 
Really now? I know GAF have lost all faith in Bioware after ME3 ending, but it's ridiculous to think all of their ending DLC is going to a bunch of jpgs with voices. They're trying to win back some of their fans with it, not lose what's left.

All I know is, they turn up the contrast and add some Gaussian monochromatic noise, I'm sold.

I'm an easy lay like that.
 
On the indoctrination theory, Family Guy Season Six Episode Five, Stewie Kills Lois

Brian: Hey, Stewie,we got a postcard from Peter and Lois on the cruise. What are you doing?
Stewie: Oh, hello, Brian. Well, you recall my complaining about Lois and the fat man not taking me with them?
Brian: Yeah. Yes.
S: Well, you said I didn't have it in me to kill Lois, so I was just running a simulation to find out exactly how killing her and taking over the world would play out for me.
B: Yeah? How did that go?
S: Not well, Brian. Not well. I suppose I'm not ready to kill Lois or take over the world... yet.
B: So, what you're saying is that what you experienced in the simulation didn't really happen or even matter.
S: Yes. That's correct.
B: So it was sort of like a dream.
S: No. It was a simulation.
B: Yes, but theoretically, if someone watched the events of that simulation from start to finish, only to find out that none of it really happened, I mean, you don't think that would be just like a giant middle finger to them?
S: Well hopefully, they would have enjoyed the ride.
B: I don't know, man. I think you piss a lot of people off that way.


Seriously, even if it's true, which it's probably not due to the amount of credit you'd have to give Bioware (the the amount of forgiveness you'd have to give them for not including a pretty important story element), it's still shoddy writing because nothing we did matters. At all.

this is only a cop-out because there is nothing within the established narrative to validate such an ending. However, when it is a part of the narrative that dreams, reality or mind control / whatever may cause 'tricks' on people, it is a legit ending.

consider eXistence (the movie) for instance, or Solaris. Or for that matter video games that play with the issue, say the Darkness, Alan wake, and so on.

It's only a really shitty ending when it isn't a logical conclusion to a set of elements and relationships ('developments', basically). When it's basically a Deus Ex machina or a 'saving face' maneuver on the part of the writers. That still might just be underwhelming, not shitty. I mean: "it was just a dream" is about a quarter or even more of all Star Trek plots, if you include the holodeck.


I honestly would have been fine with it all being played out by an advanced prediction algorithm in the Eden Prime beacon (might even have been Vigil), since that would fit the universe and would be about the best thing the Protheans could have come up with in order to stop the cycle. It's weak-ish, but not unfitting to the narrative.

They could have even made Renegade shep the 'effective shep' past that point: seeking out TIM by choice, convincing the council of the thread by less 'paragon-ish' means, and so on.

What are they supposed to do with the franchise with the ending they made? Landfill all extra copies somewhere in the Nevada dessert with a sign that says: "NEVER AGAIN"?

I wonder if EA wanted to get rid of the franchise, because it doesn't fit their 'needs' with Bioware. (which, looking at the marketing budget, I doubt very much. So then the question becomes: why did they let it happen? Why spend so much money on a future dodo? )
 
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