If I know how most Swedes usually function; anyone that isn't white is always classed as an immigrant because.... stupid fucking reasons. Doesn't matter if they were born here or not either.
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Mass Sexual Assaults at Swedish Music Festivals
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If I know how most Swedes usually function; anyone that isn't white is always classed as an immigrant because.... stupid fucking reasons. Doesn't matter if they were born here or not either.
moniker
Member
Page 22.
Spiral Insanity
Banned
You should be ashamed.
I'm not even going to pretend for one second to understand the issue as I'm not a citizen of Sweden. But this attitude just seems really sad to me if you truly feel this way about people.
hendersonhank
Member
https://www.bra.se/bra/bra-in-english/home/crime-and-statistics/rape-and-sex-offences.html
Scroll down to "relationship to the perpetrator".
So the guy I responded to could not have been more wrong.
I'm not fluent enough in Swedish to read that. Are those just cases that get reported to police or do those take into account cases that are not reported to the police (which can be a not-insignificant number)? Because it's less common for someone who's raped by her/his fiancée to report rape than when it's someone they don't know. That said, I've seen completely different kinds of statistics, though admittedly not from Sweden so there might be some differences between countries. Still, EU has done a study about rape for all of Europe and it says 77% of rapes across Europe were done by someone that the victim knew well, it even separates the rapists victim knew but only for a little while from that 77% that is only for people they knew well.
http://kunskapsbanken.nck.uu.se/nckkb/nck/publik/fil/visa/197/different
moniker
Member
Yes. Anyone who wasn't born in Sweden is counted as foreign, which would include Norwegians and Finns.
Citizens of sweden not born in Sweden are not considered Swedish?
hendersonhank
Member
Your source says 77% of "suspects" were well known to the victim, which says that those stats, too, are talking about crimes reported to the police. Since the Swedish stats I liked to are also crimes reported to the police, apparently there is indeed a large difference between Sweden and Europe as a whole.
moniker
Member
Yes they are. It's more an issue with translation, since the way the word "foreign" is often used (like in the op) should really be "immigrated". And you can be a swede and immigrated at the same time.
Darth Ghandi
Banned
Strange that BRÅ have said that the perpetrator often do not know each other.
This site is run by BRÅ and it says the opposite.
http://www.brottsrummet.se/sv/sexualbrott
Strange that it would have contradictory info.
ClosingADoor
Member
Luckily I don't have friends who display this behavior. If they did, I wouldn't call them friends anymore also after calling them out.
The problem is, if you are brought up in an environment that is OK with this kind of behavior, nobody is calling them out. And then it is very difficult for outsiders (teachers, police, etc) to break that behavior. How do you educate someone who has all their life been told women are less then men and who are not punished when displaying this behavior? That's not a simple thing to do. And how do you then convince people to take in these people and try anyway?
I don't know why people are quicker up in arms when it is someone brown or black. It has racists roots most probably, fear of something strange, I won't deny that. It's wrong of course. But if basically 80% of police requests for information about criminals on the local news and local newspaper sites are about immigrant youth year after year with no improvement, how do you explain that to people? There needs to be a line of improvement - and communication about that - to reassure people things are being handled. Otherwise people will get upset if immigration from this groups goes up, like we have seen lately with the refugee crisis.
I won't go around blaming everyone from immigrant descent. But I will question the way these issues are handled by police, politicians and parents.
I'm ranting a bit, because I don't know a quick solution to this also. There really isn't one I think. But meanwhile, society gets rougher and the gaps between groups are growing, between locals and immigrants, people and politics, victims and police, and it's a sad thing to witness.
I'm talking wider crime here btw, not just sexual assault like the incidents in Sweden now.
Edit: When talking about sexual assault here in the Netherlands, immigrant groups are very over represented btw. People with (Northern) African and Middle-eastern background are 3 times as much suspect in these crimes as locals. That was for 2005 (http://nl.aup.nl/wosmedia/296/vol_83_no_2_-_zedendelinquentie_en_etniciteit.pdf - Dutch research) so the actual worries about this are not that unfounded.
Super_Cobra
Member
If in fact is refugees, they should deport them. Show future refugees that this behavior will not be tolerated. Bring good people only.
For correcting your misleading and blatantly inaccurate response?
The attempt to slander anyone who even brings up these issues is wearing thin and failing to convince anyone. It only hands the conversation to the truly terrible people, which ironically ends up being the worst kind of nightmare for the well-meaning individuals who are nonetheless trying to throw up unnecessary walls of obfuscation around these topics.
It's important to have an open dialogue on the major issues of our time, and that can't happen if people don't feel they can speak honestly.
IdreamofHIME
Member
A lot of bands pulling out of gigs until it's sorted, that's good.
It's not about the whole European continent either, why bring that up?
If there were sexual assualts at Mexican music festivals, is it ok to ask what's going on North America?
It's not about the whole European continent either, why bring that up?
If there were sexual assualts at Mexican music festivals, is it ok to ask what's going on North America?
Darth Ghandi
Banned
Are you saying that treating women poorly is something exclusive to POC?
If not then why should we focus only on them?
How do we counter toxic masculinity?
Through education and helping the socio economically imo.
You are talking about hypothetical situations with the media reporting 80% of crime comes from immigrant in the same thread that as it turns out had two of 7 ppl being refugees.
Don't you see the problem with that? We are having a discussion based on your and others feeling that have very little facts.
If we are to have this conversation facts must be front and center.
Again it is easier to blame then do something yourself to help.
Imo I blame the war on the middle class. I blame the rich that have more money then 90% of the population.
I blame world leaders who destabilize entire regions for money and power.
And i blame those who are happy just framing womens rights and sexual harassment as a POC problem.
hendersonhank
Member
I don't see anything on that page that says most perpetrators know the victim. Did you link to the wrong page?
Darth Ghandi
Banned
We know nothing about Bråvalla, so drawing a line between it and karlstad is just idiotic.
Also you didn't mention that it was two of the 7 that were child refugees.
I'm all for having a dialogue but it is hard if you are twisting the facts.
I'm all for talking about the importance of feminism both domestic and abroad.
Talking about the wide spread racism that muslims and POC face in Sweden.
But I WILL call you on your bullshit.
So yes, you should be ashamed.
Vem och var?
De flesta sexualbrott sker inomhus, ofta i hemmet. Gärningsmannen kan vara en familjemedlem, en släkting, en pojkvän eller någon annan man känner. Det är också därför som de flesta sexuella övergrepp aldrig polisanmäls. Barn och ungdomar berättar helst inte. Orsakerna är starka känslor av skam, skuld, rädsla att inte bli trodd och rädsla för konsekvenser efter anmälan. Detta är särskilt vanligt då den som begått övergreppet är någon som finns hemma (en förälder eller nära anhörig) eller kanske går i samma skola.
Det är främst män som misstänks för sexualbrott; av de misstänkta är endast 2 procent kvinnor (men andelen kvinnor har ökat de senaste åren). Unga män dominerar bland gärningsmännen, medan unga kvinnor är överrepresenterade bland offren — något som framkommer både i Brås frågeundersökning (NTU) och kriminalstatistiken.
Same page a bit further down.
hendersonhank
Member
Google says that is " The perpetrator may be a family member, a relative, a boyfriend or someone else you know." Not that most are.
This is an important distinction to make.
One of the festivals (Bråvalla) has an entrance fee of around 200 dollars, which means that the likelihood of the perps being refugees is really, really low. This is the kind of occurence that the Vice-thing is about. There is a real problem with sexual violence at festivals, and has been for a long while.
Then there is the other one, in Karlstad, where police explicitly said that the perpetrators where "unaccompanied refugee children". This is more akin to Köln, and what happened in Stockholm last summer. Groups of young men, often recently arrived from the middle east, seemingly organize themselves and single out women in crowds and assault them.
moniker
Member
But now you are twisting the facts. Six were foreigners, and two of those were child refugees.
Darth Ghandi
Banned
True, I posted that a few pages back regarding Bråvalla.
Regarding Karlstad they said that at first but later retracted it since 2 of the 7 were unaccompanied refugee children.
Darth Ghandi
Banned
No, I'm not.
http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=83&artikel=6467063
It also says most happen inside their home. Thus most likely someone they know.
But that still doesn't state that they weren't immigrants, just that they weren't unaccompanied refugee children.
Souldestroyer Reborn
Banned
Or maybe who carried out these crimes?
moniker
Member
First they said all of them where unaccompanied refugee children, that's what they retracted.
hendersonhank
Member
No, it says "often" at home. I don't know why you're trying to make this out to say something it doesn't. As we agree, their own actual statistics say 63% of rapes are committed by a complete stranger. Some mildly ambiguous language in their PR site doesn't contradict anything.
Darth Ghandi
Banned
Were does it say that the other were refugees?
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Bollocks. They're probably being reported more for that very reason.
Darth Ghandi
Banned
"Most suxual assaults happen indoor, often i their homes.
The perpetrator can be a familymember, a relative, a boyfriend or someone else they know"
hendersonhank
Member
Yes, precisely. It CAN be someone the victim knows. It OFTEN happens in the victims' home.
But 63% are committed by someone the victim did not know.
Darth Ghandi
Banned
Nah.
The page is clearly stating that the majority are done inside, often in somones house by someone they know.
Not sure why the stat at NTU says otherwise /(could be that the stats are outdated from 2012?).
But brottsrummet is run by BRÅ and they have taken several reports into account. So I'd rather lean on that.
hendersonhank
Member
So in other words, you're sticking with your preconceived opinion and ignoring everything that doesn't fit.
The page -- a PR page for laymen -- says the perp CAN be someone the victim knows. The attacks OFTEN happen in the home.
In NEITHER case does it say "most" or "the majority". It just doesn't. This is not debatable.
But the actual statistics DO say that MOST are committed by someone the victim did not know.
No, they are from the 2015 survey and the charts go to 2014.
I'm sorry these facts conflict with the ideas you already had. Maybe you should reconsider your conclusions rather than try to twist the world to fit them.
You're massively misrepresenting that statistic. The section you're referring to is describing all sexual crimes, not just rape. It's a no-brainer that including groping and other less severe crimes which predominantly happen in crowds is going to elevate the numbers for "unknown perpetrator". If you look at the expanded statistics, you'll see that rapes constitute less than one third of all sexual crimes. And in addition to that, your very source states that crimes committed by family members and other known assailants are expected to be underrepresented in general due to victim intimidation.
EDIT: Another BRÅ-report analysing rapes between 1995 and 2000 concluded that the victim and perpetrator knew each other in 80 % of cases. Close to half of these known perpetrators were intimate with the victim. It has a summary in english at the end.
https://www.bra.se/download/18.cba82f7130f475a2f1800012829/2005_07_valdtakt_kartlaggning.pdf
ClosingADoor
Member
No, I don't say that at all and have never said that. If you are reading that in my words, you are twisting them or just reading what you want to read.
I am saying that it occurs more within certain cultures - as also shown in the stats of the research document I linked in my edit about the situation in my country. People from non-Western descent are more likely to be a suspect of these types of crimes here. So why wouldn't you target the ways to combat that type of crime by doing research in why that is the case and look at how to solve it?
I don't think that is racism. That is looking at the problem and the most effective way to combat it.
I agree with you that it needs to be combated by education, social mobility and integration. But again, if someone grows up within a culture that does not call out this type of behavior or punish it, then it is very, very hard to combat it. This is the case for all cultures, but again, the stats point towards certain groups being over represented within crime, and these types of crimes in particular, so looking into why that is the case and how to combat that problem specifically is only natural.
The problem with integration then is, how quickly can you overcome these problems and how many people are coming in? Because if too many people add to a problem while the way to combat it takes more time, then the problem grows in scale.
hendersonhank
Member
You have a point that these are all sexual offenses.
As for being underrepresented, I was mistaken about these stats being from police reports, I believe. Apparently the actual source is a survey:
So if this survey doesn't reveal the true stats, then we're just guessing at what the "unreported" stats might be and there is no way of knowing.
Darth Ghandi
Banned
The page isn't a PR page for a laymen.
If you look at the bottom:
Brottsrummet.se är en satsning av Brottsförebyggande rådet (Brå), www.bra.se
Aslo if you click on the page that says about us:
Bakom Brottsrummet.se står Brottsförebyggande rådet (Brå) som bland annat ansvarar för brottsstatistiken i Sverige och regelbundet följer brottsutvecklingen.
Behind Brottsrummet.se stand Brottsförebyggande rådet (Brå), who among other things deal with criminal statistics in Sweden and follow the crimetrends.
So that would make it very official.
It says that they happen mostly in their home by someone they know.
I know you don't speak Swedish cause then it would be evident to you too.
They also use the stats from the following places:
Källor: Brå, Friends, Polisen, Socialstyrelsen, Barnombudsmannen, Rädda Barnen, Brottsoffermyndigheten
So I would trust that BRÅ know what they are saying,
jim-jam bongs
Member
You're not even trying to be subtle anymore, huh.
Their "don't grope me" bracelets didn't work? Shocker.
Victim surveys are actually considered to be superior to police reports because they can capture reports from victims that wouldn't dare go to the police. They give an accurate sense of how many people are likely victimised over time. However, they're flawed when it comes to looking at the perpetrators of rape, because the greatest repeat offenders are those going after intimate partners and family members who in turn are the least likely to report them, even in a survey.
It's a generally accepted fact that across the western world, most rapes are committed by perpetrators the victims know well. This is unlikely to differ in Sweden, and what research there is does not indicate that it does.
hendersonhank
Member
The other dude has already pointed some things out, but you should know that my stats are from BRA: https://www.bra.se/bra/bra-in-english/home/crime-and-statistics/rape-and-sex-offences.html
Darth Ghandi
Banned
ooopps, double post.
Darth Ghandi
Banned
The thing is I'm not entirely certain it does. It is certainly reported on more especially regarding muslims. But shit like this is alive and well in many poorer areas no matter the culture or colour.
I think we should spread the efforts wider then just targeting someone from a certain culture.
You are making this into a integration problem I don't see it that way.
The problem is misogyny and it isn't confined to a few people.
ClosingADoor
Member
I'm not denying that there is a problem within every culture when it comes to this. But statistics point to it being a larger problem within some. That seems pretty clear. I don't know why it is such a problem to call this out?
Middle-eastern and Northern African countries - among others - have more trouble when it comes to women's rights and such then Western countries. So that will be reflected in the people who come from there or who are brought up in families coming from there.
Of course we shouldn't just target people from those cultures. But if problems are larger within certain groups, isn't it only natural to put extra attention towards fixing the problem within that group?
That goes for everything. Car accidents happen everywhere. But if one road stands out and has 4 times the amount of accidents on it, you put more effort into looking at why that is and how to fix it. You don't say "well, other roads have accidents too" and move on.
Darth Ghandi
Banned
The problem with singling them out is that we give white men a free pass.
I would like to know what that extra attention would entail?
ClosingADoor
Member
I am not giving anyone a free pass. I'm not saying sexual assault by white men is somehow OK. I'm saying if a problem is larger somewhere, that needs to be solved and looked at more.
Extra attention would be for example more classes about this in schools, extra attention from police officers in the streets, talking to parents if their kids are causing trouble and having consequences for that, putting funds into research, prevention and education, actual punishment for these crimes, and actual clear communication with the public from police and politicians about what they do to solve this. And if you cross the line and are not a resident, that should impact your ability to stay within the society you are in.
moniker
Member
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