Broken Joystick
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Massive Fire in High Rise Apartment in London
- Thread starter superdeluxe
- Start date
JonnyDBrit
Member
To specify, the supplier for the cladding has apparently confirmed that they were asked to provide a less fire resistant but £2 cheaper per square metre version, instead of the one they outright label 'fire resistant'.
Now, it's possible that too still wouldn't have held up - which now that I think about it, perhaps the cladding was damaged by the fridge explosion itself? - but it might have better limited the spread.
It's too early to say, but it would have at the very least slowed down the spread of the fire and allowed residents to escape and fire fighters to tackle the fire.
Either way, it's a cut that symbolises the austerity we have suffered which has put public services and the public at risk for higher profit margins.
The reason why I say she might be right is because of another witness interview I saw where the witness said that he volunteered to help the firefighters and they had him bringing over hoses from the next street over because they couldn't get water from the immediate area.
That being said, I saw the interviewer live and I'm not finding info that was actually the case officially. In either case, the below post makes a good point on the matter:
This is a good point, even the automated crane hose was having trouble reaching more than halfway up the building.
always crazy bacon
Banned
Even then, "fridge explosion" hasn't been confirmed (?). It's just heresay that people have locked onto. In all my years this is the first time I've heard of a fridge exploding.
Right. Because otherwise there would be outrage how the police allowed people running into their death. From what I heard from other witnesses the stairs filled up with smoke quickly, and running up those stairs taking 2-3 breaths of smoke will knock you out. And undlike movies and tv series try to show us, no cloths or masks covering your mouth will prevent this.
I have complete sympathy with her but one of the responsibilities of the police is preventing people not in danger putting themselves into danger.
JonnyDBrit
Member
It's because of the fact fridges - especially older ones - use gasses that are potentially flammable as part of their refrigeration.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/tragic-bride-killed-after-fridge-6817075 - Example
http://www.letsrecycle.com/news/latest-news/pentane-ruling-sparks-fridge-recycling-concerns/ - recycling concerns as a fire hazard
http://www.ukfiretraining.com/news/fridge-freezer-fires.html - A fire safety company's assessment and explanation
holygeesus
Banned
I read that a crucial piece of equipment, had to be sourced out of area (high reach platform or something?) which could account for an apparent delay. We can't dismiss the cuts in funding here though - firefighters are supposed to spend no longer than 4 hours fighting a fire. Here, some were working 12 hour shifts. Says it all really.
JonnyDBrit
Member
There's only so many of such platforms, yeah. If they were all engaged at the time the fire broke out, they would have had to either get one from outside of the area, wait until whatever they were dealing with was resolved, or make the call as to which emergency to prioritise.
holygeesus
Banned
I am also reading that even those with the very highest reach wouldn't have been tall enough to reach the top of the tower here, which must therefore ask the question as to how prepared our emergency services are to fight fires in high-rise buildings. Considering how many sound like similarly constructed death-traps, it might be worth considering.
Something America sounds like it does better, as they have machines that can reach twice as high as ours.
always crazy bacon
Banned
I didn't know that, thanks for the links.
JonnyDBrit
Member
It's why one of the points stressed is how a building like Grenfell Tower is intended to contain the fire to a given apartment, allowing fire and rescue the ability to work around it from within the building. Because otherwise uh, if a fire really does spread so much that the only way to fight it is from the outside? There really is nothing they can do.
Smoke is one of those things that's so easy to underestimate. Usually it's the smoke, not the flames that kills people.
It did surprise me the fire service didn't have a platform and hose capable of reaching beyond the (rough estimate) 10th storey. I know that these types of events are extremely rare, but does the country literally not have the capability and technology to fight larger fires at higher levels?
Not only would this type of event not have happened in the first place or have been contained much more effectively in other countries (America for example has a much wider use of sprinklers and does not use this type of cheap cladding), but other world cities with lots of high rise buildings have platforms, hoses and ladders capable of reaching higher levels than the measly levels our firefighters were able to reach.
Everything about this disaster and the response to it just screams out that our entire country is simply poor (or at least not as rich as we like to think of ourselves) and cheap.
Not only would this type of event not have happened in the first place or have been contained much more effectively in other countries (America for example has a much wider use of sprinklers and does not use this type of cheap cladding), but other world cities with lots of high rise buildings have platforms, hoses and ladders capable of reaching higher levels than the measly levels our firefighters were able to reach.
Everything about this disaster and the response to it just screams out that our entire country is simply poor (or at least not as rich as we like to think of ourselves) and cheap.
JonnyDBrit
Member
It's more that than anything. Extremely tall platforms are expensive to buy, maintain, and rarely fill a role that couldn't have been done with a shorter platform. So in the minds of anyone fiscally conservative, they're a waste of money vs shorter platforms. And spending as little as possible to provide the majority of necessary services has unfortunately been the underlying mindset with public spending for years - worst case scenarios aren't really prepared for.
papercan55
Member
I might be mistaken but i thought that due to the new car park re-design (which was also mentioned and ignored by residents as an emergency services hazard) the firefighters couldn't get the correct equipment to the higher levels until it was too late.
I'm sure i heard this either yesterday or the day before but i might be wrong, they had the equipment ready but couldn't get easy access to the building.
I haven't heard it on the news again since though so maybe it was misinformation.
salty_Josh
Member
Bear in mind the woman could be talking about the fact it took them a long while to start telling people to actually clear out of the building. At first the emergency services were telling people to stay in the coldest room in their flats with wet towels under the door for the smoke. My friend did that and made over 200 phone calls in an hour before finally being told to get out. Because she was so high up it took her nearly an hour to get down the stairs with her family. Her uncle was 3 floors higher though and he's still missing unfortunately. Scary stuff
Hierophant
Banned
Imagine being told your family could have survived if the government didn't cheap out
SlipperyFishes
Banned
Yeah update from the Beeb on the 58 missing http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40315194
Hierophant
Banned
Even if this is true, you don't give residents the option on stuff like this, you just do it. I've had workmen in my building for a couple of months before and it is so tiring. You just want them gone regardless of anything else. Asking residents if they want workmen there for another two months is a disingenuous question because the council know what the answer will be everytime, 'fuck no'.
Because misreporting of fatalities is dangerous for a host of reasons. It's not about suppressing anything, it's about letting the police and the fire brigade do their jobs and report the facts when they have them.
The woman in this video makes some valid points regarding the victim numbers and donations. It's hard to get a picture of the facts verses what we're being fed by the media.
https://twitter.com/trapgodlou/status/875867811792474112
https://twitter.com/trapgodlou/status/875867811792474112
frankie_baby
Member
Victim blaming from the council
Considering there was a group in the building campaigning for better fire safety in the building, this is just wishful thinking from Paget-Brown, a man trying desperately to shift blame elsewhere.
frankie_baby
Member
Dont even know who this person is but my bro just sent me this link, eerily similar to my theory earlier
https://mobile.twitter.com/GuvnaB/status/876024414709702656?s=09
https://mobile.twitter.com/GuvnaB/status/876024414709702656?s=09
holygeesus
Banned
I don't understand her point though. Surely announcing more deaths every few days drags out the coverage even more? If they had said there's so many dead, straight away, it would cause outrage, but time would allow the story to drop down the headlines? You are constantly drawing attention drip-feeding information, unless you intend to not ever reveal the true number of dead.
By delaying the full impact the emotion does not build. Unfortunately, news is also time based and once it has become accepted news outlet will report, well, new news.
Seems credible tbh, 160 deaths is fucking crazy and symbolises the grave of this government. They want this to be forgotten before it is reported.
holygeesus
Banned
I still think it is more likely that the process is genuinely taking them that long. If they are still using drones and dogs then it is clearly going to be a long task to even remove bodies, let alone identify them. My guess is the 58 so far are identified victims and that is how they are doing it.
In fact, I believe that buzzfeed article reveals that casualty figures for disasters like this are released this way, rather than guesstimates.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/victoriasa...ource=bbf_enuk&utm_term=.hgDGWV0Gr#.xyA5VYA5D
Here is the Met playbook for major incidents sec 14.13
https://beta.met.police.uk/globalas...et/major-incident-procedure-manual-9th-ed.pdf
I know ishmail as one of my customers. He is a proper cool guy.
I think that was posted yesterday. But yes, it's brutal, as it should be. I lived in East London as a child, and remember a block of council flats nearby where I lived. Seeing the absolute lack of official response from anyone has infuriated me, knowing what we know now that this could so easily have been avoided, and that people are only NOW paying attention about all this, because a block of flats inhabited by working class people went up in flames, with these horror stories of men, women and children screaming for help that never came because the fire was so out of control, that the London Fire brigade couldn't do anything except save the people they could and forced to make the god awful choice of who lived and who died, which I wish on no emergency service personnel who go out everyday to help those in need.
I agree with the police that they should only release confirmed dead numbers. Even if this leads to situation like this where it only slowly rises as the site is not really accessible.
But there hasn't really been any official list (or more important, number) of missing people released (as far as I know). At this point this would at least give us a close estimate of what to expect as a final tally.
But there hasn't really been any official list (or more important, number) of missing people released (as far as I know). At this point this would at least give us a close estimate of what to expect as a final tally.
This has nothing to do with austerity, in fact actual austerity would have stopped the refit altogether. Construction has always been about using the cheapest materials that are fitted by the lowest bidder no matter how elaborate the design. Councils will always look to save costs provided they comply with regs which in this case they did comply.
It looks like the regs were wrong unfortunately. It looks like every step was taken to contain fires within the flats and no one other than picking compliant cladding thought too much about the external spread if somehow a fire escapes the flat.
They used insulation that performed 50% more efficiently than it had to which dispels the "austerity," myth a tad.
The media harping on about emphasising the 'official' number of deaths is getting really annoying. I totally understand why it frustrates the locals. Either don't say a number or be honest about the fact that the death toll is going to be much, much higher than the current 'official number'.
And why do you think the regs were wrong? Incompetent engineers?
Napoleonthechimp
Member
This gets said all the time.
It's utter nonsense, sorry. We don't release death figures until you have a confirmed body, and that's really hard to do in a structurally unsound building which suffered such severe fire damage. It's not some ridiculous conspiracy, the number will be updated as time passes.
Also, if you think that there's a "true" number being used by the services and it hasn't been leaked to the press, or the press have agreed to conceal that number, you're mad. That just doesn't happen when it comes to stuff like this. It would have leaked *somewhere*. The press will assist police by not releasing details of an attacker after an incident, they won't conceal a body count.
These modern wall systems are complex they are tested to destruction and tested again, building regs will require proof of this. What they certainly don't do is build a high rise tower at the labs though.
Nobody thought to do the exploding fridge through the window test it appears. I can't see anyone using any type of rainscreen cladding of any type in the foreseeable future.
I supply external wall insulation systems and I was surprised as much as anyone to see what happened. Saying that the rainscreen cladding we do not get too involved with. Didn't hear any murmurings in the trade of a problem which you usually do if there is one with something.
frankie_baby
Member
Well a number has been leaking, lilly allen said it and jon snow agreed
lol, well in that case...
holygeesus
Banned
I'm not saying she is wrong but it makes you wonder why people believe her over official statements. She made that claim the same day the fire occurred and even firefighters wouldn't have known the extent of the fatalities at that stage. It may well be that high but I'm not sure it's wise to take her word as gospel. 50 or 150 dead it is still a disaster.
Miles Quaritch
Member
I think people are casting doubt on the official numbers because the fire happened just after midnight on a weekday, so people are assuming everyone was asleep and with how fast it spread and the ages of some residents (old people on higher floors, etc), they can't believe it's still so low and so conspiracy theories are starting to spread.
Doesn't help the government botched their response which just feeds into the 'conspiracy'
Doesn't help the government botched their response which just feeds into the 'conspiracy'
People love a conspiracy. The official number is harrowing, why people are clamouring for a larger number is beyond me. The number is what it is to date, if more have perished it'll be confirmed in due time.
Billy_Pilgrim
Member
Tell him Billy Pilgrim from the internet applauds his eloquence.
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