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[Syder]

Have BBC even mentioned the Downing St. protests?

 

[Philly40]

From what I have read nobody ignored anyone. They proposed to install a sprinkler system but a majority of the residents refused because it would've prolongued the renovation. Hence it was not built in.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...esidents-nick-paget-brown-claim-a7792736.html

You should re-post this on the Mail's website - you'll get hundreds of upvotes

 

[chromatic9]

From what I have read nobody ignored anyone. They proposed to install a sprinkler system but a majority of the residents refused because it would've prolongued the renovation. Hence it was not built in.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...esidents-nick-paget-brown-claim-a7792736.html

I didn't state sprinklers in that regard. The residents brought up a number of issues that weren't addressed.

I said sprinklers should be law and retrofitted and then compared cosmetic cladding to the importance of a sprinkler system and the price.

Edit: Hell, directly above my original post there's a glaring run down on residents being ignored that I'm referring to at the end.

2009 - Lakanal House tower block catches fire killing 6 people. The local authority is prosecuted for lapses in fire safety. A review is promised by the Labour government after pressure from the Fire Protection Association (FPA).

2010 - Building Regulations Act is published, including provisions for fire safety. Conservatives win election, a review is promised by the new government after more pressure from the FPA and warnings that the BR act does not go far enough.

2013 - Boris Johnson overrules the ruling body of the London Fire Brigade and uses legal action to inflict £29m in cuts. Closing 10 fire stations, cutting firefighters by 552, losing 14 fire engines and cutting minimum staffing levels from 5 to 4. By the time he steps down as Mayor of London he inflicts a further £100m in cuts to £130m total and the loss of 7000 firefighters. Fire prevention measures carried out by the service drop by over 25%.

2013 - All Party Parliamentary Group on Fire Safety and Rescue produces a report strongly recommending installation of fire suppression systems and sprinklers in 4000 tower blocks throughout Britain. The Grenfell residents action group publishes a report warning that their landlord is putting their safety at risk by restricting the access ways to their car park. They are ignored by their landlord.

2013 - 2016 Conservative housing ministers sit on All Party report without action, promising they are "looking at it", including housing minister Gavin Barwell.

2016 - Conservatives vote against a Labour motion to make sure all landlords and housing associations ensure residences are fit for human occupation, including provisions for fire safety. The motion is denied by 312 votes to 219. 72 of the MP's voting against are landlords. The Grenfell residents action group publish a report warning people will die in a fire before the landlord takes notice of their poor fire safety provisions. They are ignored by their landlord.

2017 - Ex housing minister Gavin Barwell becomes Prime Minister Theresa May's chief of staff. He never actioned the report. Grenfell Tower is reduced to rubble with the deaths of at least 12 residents as a fire spreads through the building in 4 minutes. It has no fire suppression system or sprinklers. The stairwell is not adequate for a full building evacuation. The emergency lighting is missing from half of the floors. The fire service struggle to reach the building due to previous car park modifications causing access issues as warned by the resident action group in 2013.

Have BBC even mentioned the Downing St. protests?

Yes on the BBC website.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

Have BBC even mentioned the Downing St. protests?

On their website, but not sure on the news channel.

 

[Beefy]

From what I have read nobody ignored anyone. They proposed to install a sprinkler system but a majority of the residents refused because it would've prolongued the renovation. Hence it was not built in.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...esidents-nick-paget-brown-claim-a7792736.html

"claims"

 

[Pyroclastic]

this is savage from the times

 

[jesu]

From what I have read nobody ignored anyone. They proposed to install a sprinkler system but a majority of the residents refused because it would've prolongued the renovation. Hence it was not built in.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...esidents-nick-paget-brown-claim-a7792736.html

That article doesn't say what you said it says.

It says many residents, not a majority.

 

[Beefy]

That article doesn't say what you said it says.

It says many residents, not a majority.

Also from a dude that looks dodgy as fuck. Not going to listen to his shit.

 

[Syder]

https://twitter.com/Corbynator2/status/875757895262105600

 

[holygeesus]

Even the Mail is gunning for May now. If that's not the nail in the coffin, I don't know what is.

As they point out, while the government is offering £5 million towards survivor funds, it is spending £369 million refurbishing Buckingham Palace. Pretty much sums this country (under the current government) up.

 

[Crispy75]

From a friend of mine on FB:

Warning: exceedingly long waffle from me just to record what's happening now from my pov.

Just got back about an hour ago from Grenfell Tower. I've never seen anything like any of this.

I went on the march that started at the Home Office. Thousands of people there and more joining as we set off for Downing Street. I don't think the police were expecting a march, in fact I'm sure they weren't, at least past Downing Street as we were weaving in and out of traffic that was forced to halt in the middle of the road.

We went up Piccadilly and Regent Street; sat down and occupied Oxford Circus until some lone, apparently sober hardman barged into the middle and pretty much threatened to take everyone on at once. He succeeded in drawing people away from the sit in and it looked like it might blow up but only very briefly. Police? Possibly.

We went on to the BBC, had a 2-minute silence outside. There had been hardly any uniformed police up till that point but there were van loads protecting 'Aunty'. Someone came up and said that people had broken through a cordon at Grenfell Tower and that they were going to go and help, and did I know which was the nearest tube to the tower and to spread the word about going.

Most of the people left set off back towards Oxford Circus. We didn't go to the tube, we marched all the way down Oxford Street, along Hyde Park and through Notting Hill to Latimer Road. We picked up people all the way. Dozens of bus drivers and car drivers coming the other way beeped their horns and clasped hands with the marchers and put their fists in the air. People at work in the shops and restaurants en route came out and cheered and clapped and joined in with the chanting. It was very, very noisy.

The noise stopped as soon as we turned a corner and saw the burnt out tower, now in the dark and so charred it was hard to see. People were murdered there.

I had to stop. There was a pub. It has a picture taped to the mirror over the sinks in the loo of the missing 12 year-old-girl we've all seen the appeal for.

Everyone was talking to everyone and everyone was angry. We watched some news. A paltry £5 million offered by the outgoing PM to help convince Tories she is doing something. (Can she be stupid enough to think she's convinced anyone else?)

Back outside, the street was still milling with hundreds of people; some marchers; many local residents. People serving food or eating it; lighting candles; crowding round people telling it. I heard: "There comes a time when you have to decide to stand up or die like a coward." And a large group of black and brown and white and young and old and working class and middle class (!!!) people agreeing without hesitation.

The march sounds tame, I know. But the whole evening felt like that speaker's thought is rising to the surface. I've never seen so many people viscerally affected. There has always been a war, but I think that the rich have just inadvertently declared it openly, and this is not going to be easily controlled. They really, really need to listen. Because people are ready to bring it.

 

[KDR_11k]

The Met Police really need to ditch those stupid helmets - it might be tradition but police forces everywhere else get by without them.

Yeah, get more practical armor like this:

 

[pfkas]

 

[Machina]

From a friend of mine on FB:

 

[Dirtyshubb]

https://twitter.com/VictoriaLIVE/status/875752774650277893
Fucking hell!

Description from someone at the start and how police and restrictions on parking helped cause more deaths with a shocking timeline.

 

[liquidtmd]

https://twitter.com/VictoriaLIVE/status/875752774650277893
Fucking hell!

Description from someone at the start and how police and restrictions on parking helped cause more deaths with a shocking timeline.

Damning. Utterly damning.

 

[StoneFox]

https://twitter.com/VictoriaLIVE/status/875752774650277893
Fucking hell!

Description from someone at the start and how police and restrictions on parking helped cause more deaths with a shocking timeline.

I can't believe this was allowed to happen.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

https://twitter.com/VictoriaLIVE/status/875752774650277893
Fucking hell!

Description from someone at the start and how police and restrictions on parking helped cause more deaths with a shocking timeline.

Jesus, if she's telling the truth about having footage and sharing it with everyone...

2 hours for the fire crews to arrive seems unbelievable though. I know they closed the fire station in the local area, but two hours to get crews out from neighbouring boroughs? I don't know. No reason to doubt her just yet, but it seems unbelievable or maybe the cuts to fire services really were that devastating.

 

[strafer]

Every new piece of info regarding this is making me more angry.

It's 2017, this shouldn't be allowed to happen.

 

[liquidtmd]

Jesus, if she's telling the truth about having footage and sharing it with everyone...

2 hours for the fire crews to arrive seems unbelievable though. I know they closed the fire station in the local area, but two hours to get crews out from neighbouring boroughs? I don't know. No reason to doubt her just yet, but it seems unbelievable or maybe the cuts to fire services really were that devastating.

The official word is 'they were on the scene very shortly after the first call', but I could possibly believe that it took two hours for crews to actually be 'engaged' in being on the scene actually fighting the fire in a tangible way this lady observed. Hmm.

 

[GrizzleBoy]

Jesus, if she's telling the truth about having footage and sharing it with everyone...

2 hours for the fire crews to arrive seems unbelievable though. I know they closed the fire station in the local area, but two hours to get crews out from neighbouring boroughs? I don't know. No reason to doubt her just yet, but it seems unbelievable or maybe the cuts to fire services really were that devastating.

It would've taken my local station about 20 minutes to get there from the outskirts of west London.

Maybe the 2 hours she is referring to is the time it took for the fire services to actually get in a position good enough to start fighting the fire as best they could?

 

[Miles Quaritch]

The official word is 'they were on the scene very shortly after the first call', but I could possibly believe that it took two hours for crews to actually be 'engaged' in being on the scene actually fighting the fire in a tangible way this lady observed. Hmm.

It would've taken my local station about 20 minutes to get there from the outskirts of west London.

Maybe the 2 hours she is referring to is the time it took for the fire services to actually get in a position good enough to start fighting the fire as best they could?

That makes more sense. I'm pretty clueless on this, does anyone know how long does it usually take for fire crews to set up after they arrive on a scene?

I imagine the location might have made it more difficult here, especially if she's right about them not being able to find adequate parking.

 

[frankie_baby]

The fire brigade keep trotting out that they were there in 6 minutes but that was just when the first person was on site, nothing about how soon they had enough and were in a position to takle it (something that certainly would have been much sooner had those fire stations not been shut)

 

[The Atticus]

The death toll is still being suppressed?

 

[frankie_baby]

The death toll is still being suppressed?

They just edge it up each day, i suspect they hope people may have callmed down a bit and the media move on before they say its tripple figures

 

[Dirtyshubb]

They just edge it up each day, i suspect they hope people may have callmed down a bit and the media move on before they say its tripple figures

This just isn't gonna happen, something has changed and people aren't going to let this rest and they really shouldn't.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

The fire brigade keep trotting out that they were there in 6 minutes but that was just when the first person was on site, nothing about how soon they had enough and were in a position to takle it (something that certainly would have been much sooner had those fire stations not been shut)

I'm guilty of this. Whenever I've heard fire crews were on site in X minutes, I've taken that to mean they were there ready fight the blaze/deal with the incident.

The death toll is still being suppressed?

I don't know if they are suppressing the death toll. The tower was a literal inferno, it's going to take some time for them to find and identify remains.

There were some reports a group of people were on the roof, have they been up there yet? Death toll could jump significantly if those early reports were true.

 

[Wind's Howling]

https://twitter.com/VictoriaLIVE/status/875752774650277893
Fucking hell!

Description from someone at the start and how police and restrictions on parking helped cause more deaths with a shocking timeline.

The hell..

So the police said people needed to stay inside the building despite the fire going upwards from the sides? Unbelievable. Every bloody dimwit could see that the fire wasn't spreading from the inside.

I don't know if there was enough time for people to escape, but at least they would have gone out fighting instead of the police 'calming them to stay indoors'

 

[jufonuk]

it's either gonna kick off tonight or clam down but unless the people get answers it will get worse

 

[Dirtyshubb]

I'm guilty of this. Whenever I've heard fire crews were on site in X minutes, I've taken that to mean they were there ready fight the blaze/deal with the incident.



I don't know if they are suppressing the death toll. The tower was a literal inferno, it's going to take some time for them to find and identify remains.

There were some reports a group of people were on the roof, have they been up there yet? Death toll could jump significantly if those early reports were true.

I have read there has been a gag order on the press which would explain how they shut anyone down.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

The death toll is still being suppressed?

Well, the fire service are still going through the building to recover bodies, which won't be a quick or easy process. I suppose part of the question is what metric they, the police, or the coroner's office are wanting met before they release present numbers. Running tallies are not exactly standard, but if their plan was just to now wait until they got a complete total, I would hope they start to reconsider. The longer they wait for certainty, the longer people will suspect conspiracy.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

I have read there has been a gag order on the press which would explain how they shut anyone down.

Hmm, I've put the media's insistence on not stating upwards of 100 dead on them wanting to make sure only the facts are reported, but with how events have developed post fire, it does make sense to allow tempers to cool before releasing the final death toll.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

EDIT: Wrong thread, my apologies.

 

[Steel]

The fire brigade keep trotting out that they were there in 6 minutes but that was just when the first person was on site, nothing about how soon they had enough and were in a position to takle it (something that certainly would have been much sooner had those fire stations not been shut)

Another witness report, iirc, was talking about how they personally ended up volunteering to help bring hoses over from the next street over because there was nowhere that they could get water from on the scene

 

[jufonuk]

I'm annoyed we elect people to look after our interests and yet the don't they claim to speak for us but do whatever the hell they want.

now more than ever I see how May serves only people in power with money - the elite.

puts out some crap out working for everyone yet in the same hand tries to change laws to what she wants. no mention ever about a hard brexit but yup she comes out with one.

this tower fire will be the same thing, "oh we will work to help people."

new laws will come out to allow private landlords or councils to have a benefit towards them. not the people, occupiers.

these poor people lived there, made lives there, a community and now it's gone. over £5K.. and they will blame some poor sod in the building saying he caused it, faulty appliance etc. hang him up. not the council. not the person who decided the savings were worth it or those who didn't put in the sprinklers. no, don't look into the reason behind this all. the cost saving penny-pinching measure that accelerated this fire.

not how due to cuts fire emergency services couldn't help to full potential. nothing to blame the government on. shift the blame. people are pissed.

 

[Wind's Howling]

Another witness report, iirc, was talking about how they personally ended up volunteering to help bring hoses over from the next street over because there was nowhere that they could get water from on the scene

Fucking hell.. How in the world could that happen.

 

[Charles Brandon]

This just isn't gonna happen, something has changed and people aren't going to let this rest and they really shouldn't.

This is so fucking stupid. There is no death toll agenda. Use your loaf ffs. It's been explained repeatedly why they release info like this, they do it like this every time and yet still people think it's a conspiracy. Worry about the real problems, not the made up ones.

The d-notice stuff is bullshit too

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Hmm, I've put the media's insistence on not stating upwards of 100 dead on them wanting to make sure only the facts are reported, but with how events have developed post fire, it does make sense to allow tempers to cool before releasing the final death toll.

I don't believe there is any gag order but I do wonder why the TV media are so twitchy when anybody mentions figures? In the Victoria Derbyshire interview the poor lady was throwing around all sorts of accusations but as soon as she mentioned numbers Victoria jumps straight in.

 

[always crazy bacon]

Jesus, if she's telling the truth about having footage and sharing it with everyone...

2 hours for the fire crews to arrive seems unbelievable though. I know they closed the fire station in the local area, but two hours to get crews out from neighbouring boroughs? I don't know. No reason to doubt her just yet, but it seems unbelievable or maybe the cuts to fire services really were that devastating.

2 hours? no way, to have more crews arrive from further away once they were called out. Possibly.

 

[Broken Joystick]

I don't believe there is any gag order but I do wonder why the TV media are so twitchy when anybody mentions figures? In the Victoria Derbyshire interview the poor lady was throwing around all sorts of accusations but as soon as she mentioned numbers Victoria jumps straight in.

Think it's just a factual thing. Have to remind viewers that it's unconfirmed.

 

[Raigan5088]

am i mis-remembering, im sure i heard on the news that the fire brigade got to the tower in under 10 mins?

 

[Dirtyshubb]

This is so fucking stupid. There is no death toll agenda. Use your loaf ffs. It's been explained repeatedly why they release info like this, they do it like this every time and yet still people think it's a conspiracy. Worry about the real problems, not the made up ones.

The d-notice stuff is bullshit too

I'm not saying there is some conspiracy, so calm the fuck down.

I'm simply saying that the public isn't gonna let the National conversation move on without answers. People are furious and the typical political actions aren't going to work.

With regards to the arrival time, there have been reports that the fire brigade had tremendous difficulty parking near enough to the water access which Seems to have caused a huge delay in actually fighting the fire and getting people out.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

I don't believe there is any gag order but I do wonder why the TV media are so twitchy when anybody mentions figures? In the Victoria Derbyshire interview the poor lady was throwing around all sorts of accusations but as soon as she mentioned numbers Victoria jumps straight in.

Because numbers are easy to spread, easy to remember, and easy to get wrong. And once someone has a pre-established notion of what the numbers 'should' be, it can at times be difficult to convince them that the numbers released by the end are genuine.

 

[Steel]

am i mis-remembering, im sure i heard on the news that the fire brigade got to the tower in under 10 mins?

The official number is 6 minutes. The thing is the woman might still have a point on how long it took them to be effective.

 

[Nevasleep]

https://twitter.com/VictoriaLIVE/status/875752774650277893
Fucking hell!

Description from someone at the start and how police and restrictions on parking helped cause more deaths with a shocking timeline.

This sounds a bit ridiculous, but at least she has video to investigate.

Police stopping people from gathering right outside or entering a burning building is what you would expect.
Fire service stated they were on scene within 6 minutes, then more resources would arrive through the night.

 

[always crazy bacon]

The official number is 6 minutes. The thing is the woman might still have a point on how long it took them to be effective.

Effective? She's an expert in firefighting to make that assement?

 

[GrizzleBoy]

The official number is 6 minutes. The thing is the woman might still have a point on how long it took them to be effective.

Another thing to remember is that not every fire department has every type of equipment.

Fire engines with hoses that can reach upto the 8th floor light have been there in 6 minutes, but the fire engines with the high reaching, water cannon mounted, mobile elevated platforms might have taken a lot longer to get there and find somewhere to not only park up, but to extend stabilizers so the thing doesn't tip over.

I guess their point is similar to saying that a squad car was there within minutes of a mass shooting, but the backup with the necessary training and firepower to control such a seriously tough and dangerous situation took longer.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

The official number is 6 minutes. The thing is the woman might still have a point on how long it took them to be effective.

And otherwise when the bulk of units turned up. The Brigade might have thought the first engine on scene might be able to handle things long enough, but it was only as things really got out of hand that they realised that they had to divert units sooner rather than later.

 

[Lonely1]

Sorry, but I have to ask. It is true that this disaster could have been avoided by spending 5K pounds on better quality materials? Because, damn.

 

[Charles Brandon]

I'm not saying there is some conspiracy, so calm the fuck down.

I'm simply saying that the public isn't gonna let the National conversation move on without answers. People are furious and the typical political actions aren't going to work.

That may be true but the numbers aren't going to come any quicker, no matter how furious people get.