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[mavs]

Sure, but to give individual permission to every single let's player channel/streamer/quick look/review channel out there on YouTube, big & small is nigh on impossible, since:

1. Our team simply wouldn't have the public reach to get all our bases covered, even if we had a disclaimer on our site or on social media networks. It is a huge pain on our side of things too.

2. All these channels, not just LP ones, are getting automated ID claims. That's hard to work around. If people are accidentally getting flagged, even though myself as a developer am totally fine with it, it's unlikely the flagged channel will even bother keeping the video up and losing us the promotion we could of got.

Sure my stance on is, well, 'maybe I'm just not a bit of a dick about it'. It's less unlikely copyright claims will happen with people playing a game from a small indie team, but the snowball effect with this happening on mainstream games is that, it's affectively stunting content creators, to actually, you know, create content on their channels, if they're afraid they will get everything flagged.

When we released our mod last year, we were briefly doing the rounds of some of the big channels, which resulted in a truck tonne of emails from smaller channels asking if they could Let's Play a free mod. It may be common courtesy of them to ask, or misinformation of them believing we purposely targeted those channels, but at the end of the day, it they were already fearful of permission from a team of nobodies, what mindset are they going to be in now?

This is the problem. Youtube has to cover their asses, the game companies (and other rights-holders) have the right to control their properties. If it began and ended with the parties actually involved with the game featured in each video then this would be workable for the uploaders.

But there's no magic process that immediately identifies whose owns every property being presented in any single Youtube video, so anyone who thinks their own property might be at stake then gets to take a shot at your video. And then finally, once everyone is satisfied that their rights are being respected, then the uploader can make money.

Or maybe that never happens because claims keep trickling in over the months on videos as different companies send out mass claims as they sift through content at their own speeds.

So the problem is not that companies can control what other people do with their property. If that was the case people could just make videos of games that are allowed to be monetized. The problem is determining which videos those are, and whether doing so leaves room for any money to be made by the uploader.

This is still in the early stages so hopefully there is a way to make this work, but hope is really all there is right now.

 

[wildfire]

It just dawned on me. While these Let's Players aren't getting money from ads on their videos is Google not accepting advertising money while keeping up the clickbaiting content they host?


The answer should be obvious.

The reaction should be if you have had a video that has been tagged you should take down all of your videos and not just the ones youtube flagged.


It's your only move to play hardball with Google. What venue should Let's players use to temporarily host their content until youtube makes appropriate arrangements that can agreed upon by both their flagged content providers and the gaming publishers?

 

[besada]

By the nature of the different mediums, by default it is a transformative work. They are in no way reproducing the source code to duplicate the original effort.

You don't appear to know what a transformative work is. And nothing is a transformative work "by default" according to the law. To be determined to be a non-derivative, transformative work, one has to go to court and use the fair use defense. The work will then be judged on a number of criteria (none of which is whether they replicated the souce code, just like none involve which font you used for a book) as to whether it counts as fair use.

It could even be found as transformative, but because it failed other pillars of the fair use guidelines, STILL be found to be a copyright violation. And serious change is needed to be considered transformative by the courts. In Salinger v. Colting, even though all the words were different, because it used the same characters altering their natures, it was considered a derivative work, rather than transformative, and Colting got spanked.

 

[Orayn]

It's your only move to play hardball with Google. What venue should Let's players use to temporarily host their content until youtube makes appropriate arrangements that can agreed upon by both their flagged content providers and the gaming publishers?

The Internet Archive has decent Flash and HTML5 players, though their navigation is pretty terrible and their bandwidth is probably pretty limited compared to YouTube.

I recently uploaded this 1080p MechWarrior Online footage to test out their quality and was very pleasantly surprised by how nice it looks.

 

[jacksepticeye]

Is mostly for audio content is what I'm hearing from everyone. because the new content ID system has an much easier time identifying sound then video for copyright.

Which is bullshit, DICE added the song into the game not me. I can't exactly remove it without removing the game audio for that section.

This whole situation is gonna be one big headache for Youtube, partners and youtubers alike

 

[BurnOutBrighter]

DailyMotion, now's your chance!

 

[jaded_up_]

Telltale Games allows LPs and videos of their games, but not monetizing them.
.

Why would they allow LP's and videos but not LP's and videos that are monetized? Do they want a cut lol?

 

[SegaShack]

With linear, cinematic, story-based games, a good majority of the content is presented as cutscenes / in-game videos. By uploading these cutscenes to the Internet, you are directly reproducing non-interactive video content without permission...so while the actual gameplay may be under fair use, uploading videos / cutscenes from the game could very easily be equivocated to uploading a movie or a TV show. It's the same type of content.

This is the thing, the entire video game is copyrighted. It does not matter whether people are showing gameplay, music, or cutscenes, it is still considered a reproduction of copyrighted material when you come to the legality of it all. The claims people on here make about free advertising do not matter when the people making videos have no rights to do so.

If there's one thing legal departments do, it's not take chances. This stuff definitely is copyrighted and only those who have express permission to make videos of it should be doing so.

It's not about wrong or right, this is what the situation is. I'm surprised Youtube let this go on for so long to be honest, games are way too over saturated on their site. It's safe to say Twitch may be next.

 

[Orayn]

Why would they allow LP's and videos but not LP's and videos that are monetized? Do they want a cut lol?

Yes? They have the exact same position as most publishers.

 

[patapuf]

This is the thing, the entire video game is copyrighted. It does not matter whether people are showing gameplay, music, or cutscenes, it is still considered a reproduction of copyrighted material when you come to the legality of it all. The claims people on here make about free advertising do not matter when the people making videos have no rights to do so.

If there's one thing legal departments do, it's not take chances. This stuff definitely is copyrighted and only those who have express permission to make videos of it should be doing so.

It's not about wrong or right, this is what the situation is. I'm surprised Youtube let this go on for so long to be honest. It's safe to say Twitch may be next.

The really popular games on twitch benefit immensly from the streaming. I really doubt it's going to be much of an issue there. I don't see Valve, Riot or even blizzard clamping down on streams.

 

[ItsGeeMcGee]

Is mostly for audio content is what I'm hearing from everyone. because the new content ID system has an much easier time identifying sound then video for copyright.

Yep, my girlfriend has a small partnered channel (~700 subscribers) and hasn't been flagged for any of her videos, but she almost always plays with in-game music off.

She's partnered with TGN/Broadband TV, and is considered an affiliate so is subject to content ID.

Unfortunately turning off the music wouldn't be practical for a lot of LPer's doing cinematic games and the like.

 

[Clockwork5]

Fucking disgusting.



We're quit literally talking peoples livelihoods here. People think that is it easy to edit videos and provide commentary but it really isn't. For every good monetized letsplayer there are about 10 bad unmonetized ones.

Where does it end? Are Giantbomb not allowed to do quicklooks anymore? What about REV3 games?

Lol. GB and REV maintain their own sites. These people use the YouTube servers and site. Not even related.

YouTube is not allowing Let's Players to monetize their videos. Not a big deal. There will still be Let's Play videos, there will still be YouTube and these people surely have other skills than playing videogames for an audience, and if they don't, well... that is on them.

I have always been shocked that YouTube allowed earnings on copyrighted material. Seems like a litigation nightmare.

 

[jacksepticeye]

Why would they allow LP's and videos but not LP's and videos that are monetized? Do they want a cut lol?

Of course they do, in fact a lot of game companies say that "you can make videos of our game but not monetise them"

I contacted Ubisoft a while ago about it and they basically said the above.

Yet a statement from them seems to actually allow it

 

[Gaogaogao]

Yes? They have the exact same position as most publishers.

then they can make their own lets play. see if anyone wants that.

 

[Jabba]

So are the Rifftrack guys not allowed to make money because they're talking about movies? How about Mystery Science theater?

More over, this doesn't only effect just Let's Players. People who make reviews on Youtube are also getting claims.

You don't have to like Let's but they're very good as informing the consumer.

That's exactly what they don't want. Informed consumers. The only real way to get that is to control the message.

 

[The Dutch Slayer]

EVERYONE needs to see this very good explanation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkbktDbEu7Y

 

[jim-jam bongs]

If this continues, and YouTube gaming channels have to turn of adshare, Cafe Press is going to have a fuck-tonne of new t-shirt vendors.

 

[CMojicaAce]

 

[Loakum]

Youtube was once a great and fun website to come to.....I guess it had to end someday.

 

[Sean*O]

So where does this lead? Might come down to an argument over what is a copyrightable work of art. Are these games scripted 100% of the way through with no randomality? no. Many of them are scripted with cinematic breaks and QTEs but the majority of what they are is free flowing and depend on user input to generate what's on screen.

I don't see how a copyright claim could stand up in that context. I don't see how publishers should be awarded absolute ownership of content they did not specifically create and script down to every last movement like a movie or TV show would.

It's kind of like trying to copyright the use of a palette of colors when the only thing that should be allowed is to copyright the final artwork created with that color palette.

Of course it's not quite that cut and dry but video games really aren't like film because they require input from the user to progress. What is more relevant to the argument.. the game's assets or the input from the user playing the game and deciding what ultimately happens on screen?

I think when this gets pushed in court the publishers will lose. The only legit claim they could seemingly have is for the in game music and the scripted cinematics, which if not removed from the YouTube videos could allow a publisher the right to shut them down.. But why would they? Why not share revenue instead? I suspect that's probably what will happen once this initial round of publisher bullying tactics ends.

 

[Orayn]

then they can make their own lets play. see if anyone wants that.

They'd rather monetize yours, though, since they have the rights to do so from a copyright perspective.*

*Absent a massive legal precedent establishing Let's Plays as fair use, which hasn't happened yet.

 

[wildfire]

The Internet Archive has decent Flash and HTML5 players, though their navigation is pretty terrible and their bandwidth is probably pretty limited compared to YouTube.

I recently uploaded this 1080p MechWarrior Online footage to test out their quality and was very pleasantly surprised by how nice it looks.

I looked it over but unfortunately that won't work.

Basic criteria has to be:

Another venue where they can resume collecting an advertising fee.

Playback is smooth for their audience.

Optional but very important:

Can reduce the downtime of reuploading video content. (this one was a big killer of the namake account who had over 400 Broodwar games taken down years ago even after he was reinstated)

 

[MagicWithEarvin]

lol DSP

 

[tamaster92]

I got about 6 videos flagged for a song at the end which I have written rights to use.

Guess I dispute..

:/

 

[Vice]

Lol. GB and REV maintain their own sites. These people use the YouTube servers and site. Not even related.

They could still get into issues with copyright law since what they do is very similar, or exactly the same, as what YTers are being flagged for.

 

[jacksepticeye]

Youtube was once a great and fun website to come to.....I guess it had to end someday.

Ever since Google started trying to force its way in more and more the site has been getting RADICAL changes and it's just gotten worse and worse.

This is the worst youtube has ever been so let's hope it can't get any lower

 

[Krakn3Dfx]

 

[Orayn]

They could still get into issues with copyright law since what they do is very similar, or exactly the same, as what YTers are being flagged for.

This would have happened by now if publishers wanted to do it, though. None of the rules being enforced by YouTube are new.

 

[Lettuce]

Time to move over to DailyMotion.....its like how YouTube used to be plus supports 60fps. Go Fuck yourself YouTube

 

[TheHollowNight]

What if somebody built a site that would allow Indies.. or any other developers to post what content is allowed and allow the YouTube content creators to go to the site look up your game and claim they're going to use your game for their LP, Review, Etc.

That way if a video gets flagged and the YT Creator needs proof, he can just link back to the site.

Not a fully automated system, but would help creators and YouTuber's alike.

I have some free time and can probably build it in a couple weeks.

That would be great if there was a partnered network for independent developers who are happy for channels to do as they please. But as you said yourself, it's not a complete solution.

I'm sure this will level out after the shit storm has settled, but I was fine with things how they were before, no hassle, no fuss, no need for such a site to grant permission to content creators. Now we are just creating barriers for everybody.

But yeah, I'd wait to see how this pans out, but your idea could be worth it if it gets any worse.

 

[VE3TRO]

Currently at 100 on mine during today. The thing is some if these arent publishers they are other media companies such as TV or gaming sites.

I've also had 4 from THQ lol.

 

[Zomba13]

I really hate how many people are all for not being able to make money off gameplay videos. They should be able to. It's not piracy. It's them using a game as a medium. Watching Giant Bomb play a game is unique to them. Yeah, they are playing Peggle 2 or Battlefield but they are doing it their way with their comments on top and it's different from everyone else playing those games, even me.

The game is like a musical instrument and their video is the song.

The reason I watch a bunch by Yogscast, Two Best Friends, Videogamer and Giant Bomb is because of the people, not the games. I like watching them play something and comment on it.
Does it make me not want to buy a game? No. Unless the game is super bad and it shows but I'd get the same information via a review.
Would I rather watch people play a game than play it myself? No. That's stupid. That'd be like listening to someone give you a scene by scene run down of a movie. You get the plot and everything but it's not the same at all.

 

[Delusibeta]

I'll be entirely blunt here. If Maker has even one marketing bone in their collective bodies, they know now is the time to start pushing Blip as a YouTube alternative.

 

[Orayn]

Currently at 100 on mine during today. The thing is some if these arent publishers they are other media companies such as TV or gaming sites.

Yeah, that's because of the way YouTube's content ID works. They compare your upload to a database of copyrighted content to see if any audio or video matches.

 

[jacksepticeye]

You know what the worst part is? This just sort of... happened. Youtube has never come out in a press release or a blog or anything like that and detailed the changes, when they'd occur, who will be affected. They just started doing it in force today with lots of people not even prepared for it.

 

[Clockwork5]

They could still get into issues with copyright law since what they do is very similar, or exactly the same, as what YTers are being flagged for.

No.... YTers are being flagged because YouTube is no longer letting them monetize their videos. Why would CBS do that to their own website?

This is a YouTube issue, not a copyright issue.

 

[sykoex]

Time to move over to DailyMotion.....its like how YouTube used to be plus supports 60fps. Go Fuck yourself YouTube

Whoa that's pretty awesome.

 

[zma1013]

Google needs to make a deal with the music industry and gaming industry. Give them piles of money or percentages to allow Youtube users to not get the shakedown.

 

[borghe]

I really wonder if the way a lot of this stuff has been brewing is the reason neither Sony nor MS have YouTube uploads enabled on either console. I've always found it incredibly odd that both consoles let you easily and seamlessly save off video content, yet neither lets you easily put that content on the largest video site in the world.

I wonder if this right here is part of the reason why.

 

[VE3TRO]

Yeah, that's because of the way YouTube's content ID works. They compare your upload to a database of copyrighted content to see if any audio or video matches.

Yea I know but some of these are false so I'll be disputing them.

 

[Mistle]

I don't understand why people think they should be allowed to make money off copyrighted content.

I made guitar covers for years on YouTube and it's been a constant battle. The song is copyrighted, even if I'm doing a cover (and I'm not trying to monetize!)
These gaming videos aren't covers or anything, they're literally the equivalent of me uploading a song and then being annoyed that one, it gets taken down, and two, that I can't make money off somebody else's song.

 

[Vice]

No.... YTers are being flagged because YouTube is no longer letting them monetize their videos. Why would CBS do that to their own website?

This is a YouTube issue, not a copyright issue.

Ah, my mistake. Thought it was a scenario like the Sega or Nintendo situations earlier this year.

 

[Madness]

And another nail in the fair use coffin.

They're not stopping you from playing the game, showing it, putting music in the background, all they're doing is preventing you from profiting off of it.

A nail in the fair use coffin would be Activision demanding you pay them money to show your multiplayer footage of CoD etc.

 

[MADGAME]

Fucking disgusting.



We're quit literally talking peoples livelihoods here. People think that is it easy to edit videos and provide commentary but it really isn't. For every good monetized letsplayer there are about 10 bad unmonetized ones.

Where does it end? Are Giantbomb not allowed to do quicklooks anymore? What about REV3 games?

I didn't see anyone in this thread claim that it is easy. Just because editing videos can be challenging/an art form doesn't mean you are allowed to edit content owned by another entity and profit from it. How would you like it if you created something and others took your creation and made money from it? You would be barking in the other direction or suing, I'm sure.

 

[besada]

I think when this gets pushed in court the publishers will lose. The only legit claim they could seemingly have is for the in game music and the scripted cinematics, which if not removed from the YouTube videos could allow a publisher the right to shut them down.. But why would they? Why not share revenue instead? I suspect that's probably what will happen once this initial round of publisher bullying tactics ends.

They won't. This isn't the first time video games have been in court to discuss copyright issues. What the person experiencing the art brings to the experience has very little to do with copyright law. The entire work is copyrighted. So you're still violating copyright when you add whatever you add to the work. Choreography and plays, both of which are entirely interpretive, are both copyrightable.

Books already require the reader to bring a considerable amount to an artistic work, since you have to imagine all the locales and characters, but that doesn't obviate them from copyright law.

 

[pelican]

I really hate how many people are all for not being able to make money off gameplay videos.

Oh people should be allowed to make money from playing games. They also should pay some form of return back to the IP holder.

 

[Aquamarine]

I really hate how many people are all for not being able to make money off gameplay videos. They should be able to. It's not piracy. It's them using a game as a medium. Watching Giant Bomb play a game is unique to them. Yeah, they are playing Peggle 2 or Battlefield but they are doing it their way with their comments on top and it's different from everyone else playing those games, even me.

The game is like a musical instrument and their video is the song.

The reason I watch a bunch by Yogscast, Two Best Friends, Videogamer and Giant Bomb is because of the people, not the games. I like watching them play something and comment on it.
Does it make me not want to buy a game? No. Unless the game is super bad and it shows but I'd get the same information via a review.
Would I rather watch people play a game than play it myself? No. That's stupid. That'd be like listening to someone give you a scene by scene run down of a movie. You get the plot and everything but it's not the same at all.

Let's Plays make perfect sense for sandboxes / multiplayer games like Minecraft and Battlefield...

...But it's a little different when we're talking about linear, story-based games where the narrative is a major part of the experience.

And there are definitely issues with monetization...like when people monetize gameplay videos (of single-player, story-based games) with NO commentary whatsoever. That annoys me because 0% of the advertising revenue goes to the company, despite 100% of the advertising revenue getting earned only from the value of the game.

 

[Evolution_1ne]

That's how it was from 2006 to 2010 and there was already quality video game content. No YouTuber was complaining about not getting paid for “work”.

I'd actually go as far as to say the videos from that time were better than the pointless commentary crap that gets put out today

 

[boeso]

Greed. Greed never changes.

 

[TheHollowNight]

I don't understand why people think they should be allowed to make money off copyrighted content.

I made guitar covers for years on YouTube and it's been a constant battle. The song is copyrighted, even if I'm doing a cover (and I'm not trying to monetize!)
These gaming videos aren't covers or anything, they're literally the equivalent of me uploading a song and then being annoyed that one, it gets taken down, and two, that I can't make money off somebody else's song.

It is most definitely not the same. Did you upload the track with yourself talking over it? With yourself on camera discussing a scene-by-scene account of what's happening? Providing analysis and giving opinion? Nope. For the most part, these Let's Play channels, or any partially gaming related channel are projecting themselves out to their audiences, many of their followers are there for THEM and their personalities, opinions etc etc.

Uploading a song to YouTube by your definition would be like distributing the entirety of the game for free for others to play.