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[Faddy]

Those Lib De seats in Scotland are gone. There is no comeback. They will keep the Orkney/Shetland seat and have half a chance at retaining Michael Moore's seat. Charles Kennedy is the only other one that has even a remote chance but I don't expect him to win either.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I actually peg Kennedy to defend. He's a good guy and suitably removed from his party. Same way Huppert will cling on in Cambridge.

 

[MrChom]

I actually peg Kennedy to defend. He's a good guy and suitably removed from his party. Same way Huppert will cling on in Cambridge.

Charlie Kennedy really should be in charge of the Lib Dems, I don't think he'd have cosied up to the Tories quite so much.

 

[industrian]

Those Lib De seats in Scotland are gone. There is no comeback. They will keep the Orkney/Shetland seat and have half a chance at retaining Michael Moore's seat. Charles Kennedy is the only other one that has even a remote chance but I don't expect him to win either.

Michael Moore is my MP. In this constituency it's either the Lib Dems or the Tories.

From what I've heard the SNP are gaining a lot of support. The fact that Labour flunky actually asked people in this constituency to vote Tory to keep the SNP out says a lot about Moore's chances though.

As with a lot of places in Scotland, I'm worried that the SNP surge, Labour/Lib Dem collapse will let in the Tories. And of all the fuckers I want as my MP, that sectarian cunt John Lamont is not one of them.

If Moore keeps his seat then I see him being a shoo-in for the next leader of the Lib Dems.

 

[Jackpot]

Charlie Kennedy really should be in charge of the Lib Dems, I don't think he'd have cosied up to the Tories quite so much.

He recently fell off the wagon so it'd be a disaster for the Libs.

 

[Danj]

Who is it addressed to?

Because they will need to contact Labour to remove themselves from the mailing list.

If they no-longer live there, just return to sender.

Uh, what? It's me, I keep getting spam addressed to me. I think it must be off that "which NHS baby are you" thing they ran a while back, but I haven't been able to find an easy way to unsubscribe.

 

[MrChom]

He recently fell off the wagon so it'd be a disaster for the Libs.

See, this is something I'll never get.....even when he fell off the wagon originally he still seemed to be doing what he needed to do in his job. I'd far rather a politician who's having an affair or got major alcohol issues but actually seems useful than a politically acceptable cretin.

 

[ultratruman]

See, this is something I'll never get.....even when he fell off the wagon originally he still seemed to be doing what he needed to do in his job. I'd far rather a politician who's having an affair or got major alcohol issues but actually seems useful than a politically acceptable cretin.

kennedy comes across as an authentic but troubled guy, but authentic troubled guys don't lead parties unfortunately.

 

[CyclopsRock]

See, this is something I'll never get.....even when he fell off the wagon originally he still seemed to be doing what he needed to do in his job. I'd far rather a politician who's having an affair or got major alcohol issues but actually seems useful than a politically acceptable cretin.

You've slipped "an affair" and "major alcohol issues" in together as if they're the same thing. Having an affair might be a reflection of your moral character but it really has 0 to do with your ability to work properly. Going on QT whilst hammered suggests the alcohol does.

 

[industrian]

Uh, what? It's me, I keep getting spam addressed to me. I think it must be off that "which NHS baby are you" thing they ran a while back, but I haven't been able to find an easy way to unsubscribe.

Write them a letter and request to be taken off their mailing list. Or call them if they've left a phone number.

 

[MrChom]

You've slipped "an affair" and "major alcohol issues" in together as if they're the same thing. Having an affair might be a reflection of your moral character but it really has 0 to do with your ability to work properly. Going on QT whilst hammered suggests the alcohol does.

I could've gone on a much longer list of things the tabloids would call for your head for that I don't really give a stuff about so long as you do your job. Now, when it does start affecting your job then, yes, questions do need to be raised.

 

[CyclopsRock]

I could've gone on a much longer list of things the tabloids would call for your head for that I don't really give a stuff about so long as you do your job. Now, when it does start affecting your job then, yes, questions do need to be raised.

Right. Questions were raised, and that's why he was sacked. I know what you're saying, but Kennedy wasn't some high-functioning Don Draper of Scotland.

 

[MrChom]

Right. Questions were raised, and that's why he was sacked. I know what you're saying, but Kennedy wasn't some high-functioning Don Draper of Scotland.

Ahh, fair enough. Shame. He always seemed like a very genuine and likeable guy...I do remember voting against Clegg in the leadership election, though, but for the life of me I don't remember who I did vote for, and my Lib Dem membership is long since lapsed.

 

[Par Score]

This 7 way debate tonight is going to be either an entertaining trainwreck, or dull-as-dishwater. I can't wait.

Its not labour I hate per say, its the hypocrisy.

I always wonder about this, because "Hypocrisy" is not an argument.

If I go around telling people that smoking is bad for their health, and that they shouldn't do it for all the clear medical reasons, but have a 40-a-day habit, then I'm a massive hypocrite. But that doesn't make me wrong about smoking being bad for your health, or mean that you shouldn't take my advice.

If I employ a bunch of people on exploitative zero hours contracts, while at the same time campaigning for the end of exploitative zero hours contracts, then I'm a massive hypocrite. But that doesn't make exploitative zero hours contracts ok, or mean that they shouldn't be banned.

"Hypocrisy" is not some magic bullet that 'wins' any argument, or at least it shouldn't be. Calling someone a hypocrite is just a fancy Ad Hominem, playing the man and not the ball.

 

[CyclopsRock]

"Hypocrisy" is not some magic bullet that 'wins' any argument, or at least it shouldn't be. Calling someone a hypocrite is just a fancy Ad Hominem, playing the man and not the ball.

You're basically correct, but in the case of ZHC it's a bit trickier because - unlike smoking - both sides of the argument are economic. "It leaves workers unsecure" vs "it offers much needed flexibility for workers and employers". Whichever side you fall on, you're making a call about which you think is more beneficial. To then turn around and do the opposite yourself brings into question whether you actually think what you're proposing as law is what's best.

 

[Danj]

Write them a letter and request to be taken off their mailing list. Or call them if they've left a phone number.

A letter, how quaint. There's no electronic way to get unsubscribed? This is the 21st century isn't it?

 

[kmag]

Michael Moore is my MP. In this constituency it's either the Lib Dems or the Tories.

From what I've heard the SNP are gaining a lot of support. The fact that Labour flunky actually asked people in this constituency to vote Tory to keep the SNP out says a lot about Moore's chances though.

As with a lot of places in Scotland, I'm worried that the SNP surge, Labour/Lib Dem collapse will let in the Tories. And of all the fuckers I want as my MP, that sectarian cunt John Lamont is not one of them.

If Moore keeps his seat then I see him being a shoo-in for the next leader of the Lib Dems.

In the light of EVEL no UK political party will go for a Scottish MP as leader.

 

[industrian]

In the light of EVEL no UK political party will go for a Scottish MP as leader.

Once enacted, they could just ship him down to a safe Lib Dem seat in England.

 

[faridmon]

What are SNPs policies so far that will make people vote for them? As long as I can remember since I moved to UK, everyone hated them, but they are gaining traction.

What gives?

 

[SteveWD40]

I always wonder about this, because "Hypocrisy" is not an argument.

If I go around telling people that smoking is bad for their health, and that they shouldn't do it for all the clear medical reasons, but have a 40-a-day habit, then I'm a massive hypocrite. But that doesn't make me wrong about smoking being bad for your health, or mean that you shouldn't take my advice.

If I employ a bunch of people on exploitative zero hours contracts, while at the same time campaigning for the end of exploitative zero hours contracts, then I'm a massive hypocrite. But that doesn't make exploitative zero hours contracts ok, or mean that they shouldn't be banned.

"Hypocrisy" is not some magic bullet that 'wins' any argument, or at least it shouldn't be. Calling someone a hypocrite is just a fancy Ad Hominem, playing the man and not the ball.

I won't comment on how this fits the context of the thread, but I will say it's a fantastic point and very well put.

 

[industrian]

A letter, how quaint. There's no electronic way to get unsubscribed? This is the 21st century isn't it?

Are you asking me to trawl through the Labour website looking for an opt out link? If you can't find an adequate electronic way of opting out of receiving mail from them, then that kind of narrows down your options. Like I suggested earlier you could also mark this correspondence as "return to sender", but as I don't work there I'm not sure if they would record that as an opt out.

 

[Yen]

What are SNPs policies so far that will make people vote for them? As long as I can remember since I moved to UK, everyone hated them, but they are gaining traction.

What gives?

They're to the left of Labour and claim to want to challenge neoliberalism and austerity, though Joseph Stiglitz, hired by Salmond as an advisor, who made the point that the SNP claim to promote social democracy while suggesting Celtic Tiger tax rates.
Secondly, a lot of Scottish nationalists are aggrieved at Labour aligning with the Tories in the referendum campaign (you often saw the term "Red Tory" been through around during the campaign) and the tone of that campaign - a bit patronising.

 

[Rodhull]

What are SNPs policies so far that will make people vote for them? As long as I can remember since I moved to UK, everyone hated them, but they are gaining traction.

What gives?

How long have you been in the UK? The SNP has formed the last two governments in Scotland and before that were the main competitors to Labour. They've certainly gotten more popular in the last couple of years or so but I wouldn't say they've been a 'hated' party for a long time.

They're certainly hated by Labour because they can't take left wing votes for granted anymore.

 

[Par Score]

You're basically correct, but in the case of ZHC it's a bit trickier because - unlike smoking - both sides of the argument are economic. "It leaves workers unsecure" vs "it offers much needed flexibility for workers and employers". Whichever side you fall on, you're making a call about which you think is more beneficial. To then turn around and do the opposite yourself brings into question whether you actually think what you're proposing as law is what's best.

I would argue that ZHC is not just an economic argument, but also a moral one.

Taking an action which you feel is morally wrong but economically beneficial, then calling for that action to be banned, is still absolutely hypocritical.

But the hypocrisy doesn't stop it from being morally wrong, or mean that it shouldn't be banned.

What are SNPs policies so far that will make people vote for them? As long as I can remember since I moved to UK, everyone hated them, but they are gaining traction.

What gives?

I'm not sure where you live, but the SNP are rather more hated in the areas of the UK they don't stand for election than in the areas that they do. They have been running the Scottish government for the last 8 years after all.

The SNP have also steadily been moving to the Left as Labour have drifted to the Right (though Labour have made somewhat of a course correction recently) which has allowed them to hoover up a lot of the former Anyone But The Tories vote. This has been compounded by the Lib Dems collapse after bunking up with the Conservatives, pretty much solidifying the SNP as the Anyone But The Tories party of choice.

They're also gobbling up the pro-Independence vote of course. Getting 45% loses you a two way referendum, but wins you a hell of a lot of seats against a divided unionist opposition.

 

[kmag]

What are SNPs policies so far that will make people vote for them? As long as I can remember since I moved to UK, everyone hated them, but they are gaining traction.

What gives?

To be honest it's a combination of relatively populist centre-left policies in Scotland with the utterly chaotic, lackluster and occasionally corrupt rule of Scottish Labour. It's not hard to be popular government in Scotland as you're not responsible in the main for revenue raising so as long as your competent (and even their detractors would have a hard time saying the SNP haven't been largely competent in power) and a wee bit popularist you can easily build support. Labour under McDonnell was corrupt and incompetent which is never a good mix. As the SNP have drifted to the centre-left, Labour have moved rightwards.

Scottish Labour suffered a brain drain during the Blair years in power, anyone with any talent didn't go to Holyrood they went to be a spad or an MP. With the SNP it's the reverse, their main talent become MSP's who then proceed to run rings around the 2nd rate councillors who make up the majority of Labour's MSP's.*

The one good thing Scottish Labour might get out of a gubbing at the polls in Scotland is that some of their more talented MP's might end up in Holyrood. That will allow them to start to rebuild the party up here.

*Funny enough one of the reasons the Tories do relatively well in Scottish parliamentary and council elections is that by and large the talent they do have up here have no place else to go. The Scottish Tories are bit looser and less Etonian than the top tier Tories down south. Ruth Davidson is a pretty good politician.

 

[CyclopsRock]

I would argue that ZHC is not just an economic argument, but also a moral one.

Taking an action which you feel is morally wrong but economically beneficial, then calling for that action to be banned, is still absolutely hypocritical.

But the hypocrisy doesn't stop it from being morally wrong, or mean that it shouldn't be banned.

Aaah, but we're talking about how being a hypocrit doesn't mean that what you're advocating is wrong. But in the case of moral arguments, it must hold some weight, no? If someone's argument is based upon their own moral belief as they simultaneously show themselves to be immoral by doing it anyway, how much weight do we lend to this moral belief - which is, unlike smoking, basically subjective? In other words, is their own moral argument not undermined?

 

[industrian]

*Funny enough one of the reasons the Tories do relatively well in Scottish parliamentary and council elections is that by and large the talent they do have up here have no place else to go. The Scottish Tories are bit looser and less Etonian than the top tier Tories down south. Ruth Davidson is a pretty good politician.

This also was the reason why Annabel Goldie (IIRC) suggested that the Scottish Conservatives should spin off from the main party.

 

[AGoodODST]

What are SNPs policies so far that will make people vote for them? As long as I can remember since I moved to UK, everyone hated them, but they are gaining traction.

What gives?

SNP have been gaining traction for years now. They've slotted into the centre left spot previously occupied by Labour. I think their brand of civic (rather than ethnic) nationalism and largely social emocratic policies appeal to a lot of people.

I think it's also been previously seen as a wasted vote if you don't vote Labour up here in the general election. For the first time in decades the SNP are offering a genuine alternative.

It also can't be understated how badly Scottish Labour and Lib Dems have destroyed their reputation. If you can walk through Clydebank and see people telling Labour to fuck off, you've got serious problem.

 

[industrian]

The core, fundamental rise in the support for the SNP is quite simply that they've proven themselves a capable political force by governing Scotland since 2007.

Before that they were considered largely a single-issue group or a protest vote. But we gave them the chance to lead us, and their decent job as a minority government from 2007-2011 - which was cynically held back in places by unionist parties out of fear of giving the SNP any creditable accomplishments - led to them getting a majority government in 2011.

Since then the SNP have consistently grown in stature and in trust because they are a Scotland-focused political party and not just a regional PO Box for a Westminster party like Scottish Labour are. And despite what some people may think, plenty of people who are against Scottish independence still vote SNP for these reasons.

 

[Jezbollah]

Got back home for the weekend and found a polling card and Labour party booklet in the post.

It's getting real now.

EDIT: Outstanding, Dapper.

 

[dapperbandit]

Debate time soon bromeos

 

[brokenbeans]

Just watching the build up on ITV news, I'm looking forward to it.

90% sure I know who I'm going to vote for.

Also got my polling card today.

 

[kmag]

Even though this 'debate' won't matter a jot in the grand scheme of things, I want to get my prediction in that Ed will struggle in this format, Cameron will do fine but let his anger show at one point, Sturgeon will do well and come out swinging at Cameron and Clegg, Farage will get the most laughs and Natalie Wood will surprise people by remembering her own name.

Cameron will win on the polling but the journos will give it some one else.

 

[faridmon]

Thanks guys for the reply. I have been long here, but yeah, I haven't heard of SNP around and all of the sudden is a strong force.
Hate might be the wrong word, more like indifference towards it.

 

[JonathanEx]

Turned on BBC News.

They were discussing that Ed Miliband's aide went in to Clarks and brought shoes.

Turned over to Sky.

Representatives from Plaid/SNP/Green doing the whole 'oh we're different from the westminster' blah blah but they shared the same inability to answer a question.

I was quite looking forward to the interviews, but I'm dreading this.

Oh god, I agree with The Sun guy on Sky right now about pointlessness.

 

[Uzzy]

ITV being cheesy as usual.

 

[RedShift]

Going to watch it on BBC News because I don't have anything but I player on my phone/tablet, but their obsession with this worm is worrying me.

Edit: it's Xfactor does the election.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Showtime!

 

[jimbobsmells]

Wow already I have low low expectations. Thanks ITV.

 

[iNvid02]

jesus dont stare directly at me guys

 

[JonathanEx]

Going to watch it on BBC News because I don't have anything but I player on my phone/tablet, but their obsession with this worm is worrying me.

Edit: it's Xfactor does the election.

I'm doing the worm thingymabob for YouGov tonight. I'll see how long until I press 'I would have turned off by now'.

 

[RedShift]

That worm dive when she mentioned climate change lol.

 

[kmag]

jesus dont stare directly at me guys

It's either that or do what Sturgeon did and start off angle into space, like you've forgotten where you've parked the car.

Natalie Wood had the right idea, don't stand there like someone killed your kitten. Look at the camera and smile.

 

[kmag]

Clegg apologising for existing. Probably the right line to take.

 

[Carl2291]

I can't help but think that Nick Clegg really is the most irritating man in politics right now.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

I can't help but think that Nick Clegg really is the most irritating man in politics right now.

Seriously. What a creep.

 

[kmag]

Long term economic plan. Long term economic plan. Long term economic plan.

 

[liquidtmd]

This game on the set of 15 to 1 is taking a long time to get going

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Obviously this is not in any way relevant to any political events and I make no other judgement on the basis of it and recognise the other valuable aspects she brings, but...

Leanne Wood is really attractive.

 

[peely]

This game on the set of 15 to 1 is taking a long time to get going

First thing my missus said was "They're playing 15 to 1" !