Hence shy tories
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May 7th | UK General Election 2015 OT - Please go vote!
- Thread starter Volotaire
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Hence shy tories
PJV3
Member
That's to do with polling, they must be quite aggressive.
How these people would cope 30 years plus ago is amusing, it's much more civil these days.
Spending billions on appeals and court cases in the process.
Yes. They threatened to break my shins. Horrific ordeal
I've already implied that I agree it's unworkable
The reasons he posts for voting Tories are all based on Tory lies, obfuscation, and fear-mongering which makes it at least partially difficult to take seriously, but I do think he's at least partially correct about his characterisation of the Left. Calling people stupid or cowardly for voting right wing isn't really the way to go about winning the votes of swing voters. Left-wings people and progressives need to attack the Tory party, not the people who vote for them because they (completely justifiably) buy into their lies.
The left needs to start offering a compelling reason to vote left (and there are plenty of reasons to vote progressive--the progressive picture of politics makes the Tory picture look like a cruel joke, frankly), not just 'the Tories are bad and you're dumb if you vote for them'.
Not everyone feels as miserable as some feel they should.
They then struggle to understand why this feeling of abject misery is not getting perpetuated.
Mr. Luchador
Member
In fairness to Jonno (and others) he hasn't really went after anyone who has openly said they voted Labour (as far as I've seen). I'd personally act defensive if I had a ton of people repeatedly telling me I was 'wrong' all the time to. The beauty of a democracy (if you like it or not) is that we have different options, and parties to (hopefully) represent your ideologies and core beliefs.
It's a shame, and slightly odd, to see people who consider themselves left, thoughtful and considerate or so irate and feel the need to attempt to shame anyone who hasn't followed their line of thinking/voting. From what I've seen I can't recall anyone from the 'right' of the line question over and over again why you voted differently to them (maybe that's because they won, or they simply can deal with it I'm not sure).
I know I'm new to UK Politics GAF, but I'd find it a huge shame if Jonno and current representative of the other parties felt bullied out of conversations due to who they voted for. I personally welcome a mixed representation and different point of view to my own, as that's what's so great about being allowed to vote and choose.
Even if the voting system was changed we'd still have a Tory Government right now, which suggests to me that's what the Country wants right now. I guess the counter to this would be perhaps two of the other parties might have been able to form a Coalition to have more votes (but no idea if that's allowed under a different voting system or not).
It's a shame, and slightly odd, to see people who consider themselves left, thoughtful and considerate or so irate and feel the need to attempt to shame anyone who hasn't followed their line of thinking/voting. From what I've seen I can't recall anyone from the 'right' of the line question over and over again why you voted differently to them (maybe that's because they won, or they simply can deal with it I'm not sure).
I know I'm new to UK Politics GAF, but I'd find it a huge shame if Jonno and current representative of the other parties felt bullied out of conversations due to who they voted for. I personally welcome a mixed representation and different point of view to my own, as that's what's so great about being allowed to vote and choose.
Even if the voting system was changed we'd still have a Tory Government right now, which suggests to me that's what the Country wants right now. I guess the counter to this would be perhaps two of the other parties might have been able to form a Coalition to have more votes (but no idea if that's allowed under a different voting system or not).
I totally agree. We Had a college political debate and some of people I agree with politically, we're so snarky with their position it just alienated people who were considering voting Tory. So much that I got told by someone after afterwards that I almost convinced them to vote Green but they were put off by the other LLeft wingers there.
PJV3
Member
I'm not interested in why anyone votes the way they do, I'm frustrated with the system that excludes my opinion from getting represented fairly.
The centre will almost always win, id prefer to get there after a debate between a wide range of opinions. The parties in Westminster are a circle jerk of centrist ideas and people with similar backgrounds.
I hope there are some decent SNP MPs, I'm sick of the echo chamber.
The centre will almost always win, id prefer to get there after a debate between a wide range of opinions. The parties in Westminster are a circle jerk of centrist ideas and people with similar backgrounds.
I hope there are some decent SNP MPs, I'm sick of the echo chamber.
It's Reyn Time!
Member
I would wager a good chunk of people voted what they did because the opposition leader looked funny eating a sandwich. Those are not people you should tiptoe around - they should be made to feel like the fucking morons that they are.
Nobody would give a shit about how he looked eating a sandwich if he could explain clearly and succinctly why the Tories are full of shit and why voting left is a better option. He couldn't, he lost, and from that point of view it was deserved.
no shaming and stereotyping of the left going on this thread at all, none.
'I felt so happy this morning thinking about all those shrill losers crying into their Guardian'.
None at all!
JesseEwiak
Member
Sorry there was an election, and nobody can ever question a conservative voter about what they've said or the policies of your government for the past 5 years of it's all just sour grapes, as this election proved every Tory voter in this thread to have been correct.
eBay Huckster
Member
Looking at the popular vote for this election, that would actually be unlikely in a PR system (whether we're talking STV, straight party-list or MMPR), simply because the Tories and UKIP alone already almost comprised a majority of votes.
Mr. Luchador
Member
I find it interesting that there are a lot of assumptions that if you voted Tory you're a Moran/Idiot and were drawn into lies. Perhaps I'm the ignorant one in all of this, or cynical in thinking that nearly - if not all - the parties have lied. I'm sure there's a cliche somewhere.
Perhaps I'm not understanding the feelings of allegiance fully since I'm one of those people who flutters around and votes for different parties.
2001 - Labour
2005 - Labour
2010 - Lib-Dem
2015 - Green
Yeah that makes sense, I had no idea if it would be possible and now you've mentioned that the Tories would just form a Coalition with UKIP it's made me realise that the Parties would just keep One-Upping each other with Coalitions haha
Well, like I said "that I was aware of."
Perhaps I'm not understanding the feelings of allegiance fully since I'm one of those people who flutters around and votes for different parties.
2001 - Labour
2005 - Labour
2010 - Lib-Dem
2015 - Green
Yeah that makes sense, I had no idea if it would be possible and now you've mentioned that the Tories would just form a Coalition with UKIP it's made me realise that the Parties would just keep One-Upping each other with Coalitions haha
Well, like I said "that I was aware of."
Miles Quaritch
Member
The public sees it through the prism of mortgages and loans like those you or I would get through a bank.
The conservatives did an amazing job convincing people the national debt works in the same way as a mortgage.
It really was a masterful play, I still hear this argument from people and no matter how much I might try to explain how the national debt is vastly different to how a standard mortgage works, they just refuse to accept it as the mortgage explanation resonates better for them.
It's easier for them to understand and that's all they want or care about.
zorlaczerohero
Banned
Fuck it! Go all the way! Ban people from driving unless they can afford to pay for the costs of surgery in case of an at fault crash. HIV? Sorry but Condoms, it's your own fault! Live in Moss side in Manchester? Sorry you got stabbed but you chose to live there, we ain't stitching you up.
There's a line for how culpable you are for your own well-being. It's a line the NHS was never designed to look at nor care about, more so considering the tax income from Cigs and Booze, the Tax income of which I see as a form of insurance.
Comments like yours are basically like saying "Do what you want, if you're rich."
Brilliant idea. Then while we're at it "sorry that you chose to have kids but can't afford to look after them Or do not have room for them. You're not getting any extra money" I think we might be on to something here. Someone email someone with these ideas.
As said I've already accepted is an unpopular and unworkable idea.
StealthGoblin
Banned
Do we know if the income in taxes for alcohol and cigarettes goes directly into the NHS budget, or does the NHS get a flat budget regardless of how many of each are sold?
If the proceeds aren't ring fenced, they should be.
If the proceeds aren't ring fenced, they should be.
JesseEwiak
Member
The problem with that is you're assuming the exact votes would be the same, with a different system. UKIP voters might've jumped to the Conservatives, Conservative & Labour voters might've stayed with the Liberal Democrats, Labour voters might've jumped to the Greens, and so on, and so forth with a different voting system.
Mr. Luchador
Member
How long have the health warnings of Smoking been public now? 15 years or so? I do find it utterly amazing that people still smoke. My Nana died of lung cancer linked to her many years of smoking, and the care she received seemed good from what we can tell. So, those 'legacy' cases should probably receive the treatment and care for cancer linked to smoking. However if people are still smoking 20-30 years from now despite the many warnings and links... I don't know, I'm torn on it, as they clearly should get treatment and help like any drug addict should, but it just seems so... stubborn to ignore all the warnings.
There needs to be a proactive attempt to educate people to the dangers of smoking (and how expensive it is?!) to the point where it should be outright banned based on medical evidence and advice.
I'm not sure if that's something any party is willing to do, or even given the time of day to consider. I guess there are arguments against it such as cost and loss of income from tax.
I know people won't agree with this (I'd be interested to hear why), and I completely understand that my view comes from someone who has never smoked, and grew up in a family of really heavy smokers.
The same could be said for people who are obese - they need educated towards the dangers of over eating and not exercising. I'm aware that there are some studies which have considered there could be a case that there's a genetic link between weight gain and obesity (so I guess until further studies are made it's hard to say what's right or not).
However, I've got to believe that the high amounts of Microwave and prepacked meals has to have a hand to play.
To me this makes sense.
There needs to be a proactive attempt to educate people to the dangers of smoking (and how expensive it is?!) to the point where it should be outright banned based on medical evidence and advice.
I'm not sure if that's something any party is willing to do, or even given the time of day to consider. I guess there are arguments against it such as cost and loss of income from tax.
I know people won't agree with this (I'd be interested to hear why), and I completely understand that my view comes from someone who has never smoked, and grew up in a family of really heavy smokers.
The same could be said for people who are obese - they need educated towards the dangers of over eating and not exercising. I'm aware that there are some studies which have considered there could be a case that there's a genetic link between weight gain and obesity (so I guess until further studies are made it's hard to say what's right or not).
However, I've got to believe that the high amounts of Microwave and prepacked meals has to have a hand to play.
To me this makes sense.
eBay Huckster
Member
Well, I could run a detailed regression based on a number of variables (like second-choices, if that data's publicly available anywhere) to provide a better estimate of where we'd stand with PR in the UK rather than assuming it'd stay 1:1, but then I wouldn't be able to post in here or BritGAF in general about it for a while.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Why ring-fence anything? It just makes balancing your budget a nuisance. If the NHS needs £40bn, it needs £40bn. The location of that £40bn is irrelevant. If it doesn't need £40bn and efficiency savings can be made, but the sin taxes are still performing a useful role, why would we not put them to use elsewhere? Using them to reduce child benefit and disability benefit cuts seems pretty useful to me.
jimbobsmells
Member
If the Tories can help push through TTIP as it stands than we might have Phillip Morris suing us for daring to stop people from smoking. They're already trying it in a few countries, Uruguay being one.
Mr. Luchador
Member
I read it under the assumption that the income from cigarettes and alcohol would ONLY be used to help fund the NHS (alongside additional income).
TTIP?
See it's Policies like this I wasn't even aware, which is my own fault as I never even considered looking out for something like this.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
On the subject of belligerence etc, the close nature of the election made it particularly bad, I think. Absolutely nobody expected a Conservative majority, and the shock landslide has made it much worse than if all the leftwing supporters had been able to mentally prepare themselves for a defeat. I'd be lying if I said I personally wasn't very disappointed, and I probably would be rather bitter if I tried to discuss why you should/shouldn't have voted a particular way. Can't help it, I'm only human. Given that's not useful to anyone at this juncture, I'll probably just avoid it and stick to more specific topics. After all, I now have another five years to persuade you all, so it can wait a few weeks.
PJV3
Member
All I know is that tobacco taxes exceed the cost to the NHS of smoking.
Alcohol is probably undertaxed if you look at from a wider view of crime etc. Food and obesity is the real challenge for the health service.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html
It's not your fault. The people involved don't want you know about it because if you did you wouldn't want it to happen.
JesseEwiak
Member
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...e-center-can-be-costly-for-left-wing-parties/
Interesting article on how moving to the center can be costly for left-wing (and right-wing I bet) parties in the long run, even if it gets them some wins.
Unfortunately for the UK, this seems to be your 2004 election after your 2000 election being in 2010 when it comes to a milquetoast center-left party, and Gordon Brown is your Al Gore (brought down due to his predecessors issues) and Ed Milliband is your John Kerry (won't fight back against the opposing party smears).
Now, the question is, is your Tory party as full of itself as the GOP was in 2004 in crowing about a Permanent Republican Majority?
Interesting article on how moving to the center can be costly for left-wing (and right-wing I bet) parties in the long run, even if it gets them some wins.
Unfortunately for the UK, this seems to be your 2004 election after your 2000 election being in 2010 when it comes to a milquetoast center-left party, and Gordon Brown is your Al Gore (brought down due to his predecessors issues) and Ed Milliband is your John Kerry (won't fight back against the opposing party smears).
Now, the question is, is your Tory party as full of itself as the GOP was in 2004 in crowing about a Permanent Republican Majority?
Mr. Luchador
Member
Sorry, I edited my post to include 'alongside additional funding', as like you have said there won't be enough to money to fund the NHS exclusively with taxes from Alcohol & Cigarettes.
Part of my current job is to educate children and families about healthy eating and exercise. Most of the time the children are pretty aware, but the parents don't seem to know (and in some cases don't want to know). Nearly ALL of the time the parents are giving their children adult proportions.
Yup, ended up writing to my MEPs about it a while ago, actually got a sensible reply from the UKIP rep surprisingly. But for the people in my area, it does sound like something the UK parties aren't keen on... BUt I don't have a Tory rep to confirm for sure.
PJV3
Member
Another reason for why I have gradually come to wanting out of the EU.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Blair was our Clinton, so the analogy isn't bad at all.
EDIT: Fuck it GAF. I'm p drunk right now but I'm going to run for Parliament in 2020. You watch me.
EDIT: Fuck it GAF. I'm p drunk right now but I'm going to run for Parliament in 2020. You watch me.
The fact that none of them really talk about it publically tells you exactly what you need to know about how they feel about it.
The Greens are the only party, to my knowledge, that have talked about it: https://www.greenparty.org.uk/news/...a-corporate-power-grab,-that-must-be-stopped/
I'm sure that if it was brought up, us shrill Lefties would just be told to stop making such a big issue out of such an important and beneficial deal--worth up to £4bn to the British economy!
JesseEwiak
Member
Yup, except he got you guys in a stupid war, and our Clinton, for all his failings, biggest fuck up was getting his dick sucked to the average person.
The good news is that by the recent news about ole' Slick Willy saying his crime bill might've been a mistake, you might get ole' Tony to apologize for some mistakes in 2025 or so.
Nope, just a return of the feel good factor. Tangible things such as an uptick at work, maybe overtime getting offered, low mortgage payments, comments from friends and family and whatever breeds confidence. Labour were in charge when the misery came, and the Conservatives weren't. Luck? Maybe, but that's how it is. Labour couldnt get their message across or even eat a sandwich. If the Conservatives cock it up and they bring the feel bad factor Labour will get back in.
Politics.
PJV3
Member
That really just strikes me as like voting Tory because when you were reading the manifesto it was sunny out the window.
But I digress, everyone has their reasons for voting who they vote for.
Andy Burnham spoke about it in relation to the NHS
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/02/andy-burnham-nhs-must-be-exempted-eu-us-free-trade-agreement
Miles Quaritch
Member
What would be in place to help people if they couldn't afford to pay? Palliative care instead of proper treatment? Or just leave them to slowly die in their home?
How far does that line of thinking extend? What about people who develop certain types of cancer? Should they be forced to pay for treatment?
CyclopsRock
Member
Well I feel great
Anyway, this is (as ever) interesting from Anthony Painter.
http://labourlist.org/2015/05/social-justice-in-changing-times/
Anyway, this is (as ever) interesting from Anthony Painter.
http://labourlist.org/2015/05/social-justice-in-changing-times/
I'll re-iterate, I agree it's an unworkable system and one I didn't put enough thought in to, I will not be discussing it any further.
PJV3
Member
He realised it wasn't workable when kitch and myself finally agreed on something.
jimbobsmells
Member
You'll never live it down jonno
I'd argue that choosing who to vote for on a manifesto is like asking Jimmy Saville to babysit if he promises to be good.
That goes for every party.
GrizzleBoy
Banned
So when a kid who roller skates breaks his arm and his mother doesn't have the money to pay, she's put into x amount of debt? Or just gets no treatment at all?
The hell?
This will also encourage people to skip treatments they need in fear of debt. People will literally die.
Please. No.
This line of thinking fits so well with the total disconnect the Tories and probably many of their supporters seem to have between what people in difficult situations actually have to go through and how changes will impact their lives.
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