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NinjaFridge
Unconfirmed Member
Daveism.
Mecca for the rich: Islam's holiest site 'turning into Vegas'
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Daveism.
Canis lupus
Member
A big skyscraper like that in the middle of nowhere just looks ugly.
interesting... though i suppose its why ive never heard anyone say 'let go check out mecca' for a holiday plan
L0st Id3ntity
Member
Terrible.
As a child the view always reminded me of how the universe works, turns out it is in fact accepted as one of the explanations of "tawaf":
As a child the view always reminded me of how the universe works, turns out it is in fact accepted as one of the explanations of "tawaf":
My mom told me that her grandmother used to tell her that a lot back in Ethiopia. Everything was a sign of judgement day to my great grandmother a hundred years ago.
I think this is just a sign of human nature, a nature we've always had, but now in a more transparent and secular-humanist world, those spiritual leaders that were looked up to have much more criticism thrown their way.
TheRagnCajun
Member
I can't disagree, but obviously the demand is there.
You can demonize the 'western' influence of consumerism, but the buildings wouldn't be there if people weren't patronizing them. To me, this is an interesting case of cognitive dissonance.
I love that some french military guys converted to islam in order to storm the mecca to throw out some extremists.
e: fucking ninjas
jchap
Member
Every time I see pictures of the Kaaba, I think of the monoliths in Space Odyssey.
It's an anti monolith, rather than advance a society it retards it
Canis lupus
Member
If I was in charge there I would hire a better city planning architect that would solve the huge amount of tourist influx and traffic congestion. Its so crowded there.
We've had this discussion in the Islam thread I think. Like in a lot situations, I recall that there was a difference in opinion between the different schools of thought. I think the Hanifi school of thought [the majority of Muslims iirc], allows all people regardless of being a Muslim or not, to enter Mecca.
But Saudi right now is wahhabism, a different school of thought.
Having said that, even in Hanifi, non-muslims will not be allowed to perform mock pilgrimage shall we say - entering the kabah. It's not a tourist area, and it's reserved exclusively for worshippers.
Vice Magazine has an amazing multi part documentary about this. One of their reporter visits the Mecca with his parents with a hidden camera, and chronicle the entire trip. When I saw this, I was also very surprised by the super high class hotels, and so on. At night it looks like a city that would belong in TRON.
Its really sad to see people sleeping on the pavement while hundreds of buses are idles around them.
But yeah the entire thing is very interesting to watch, I think its about a hour long and its available on their site and on youtube.
Its pretty epic when he reaches the Kaaba and walks around. Even his old parents do it.
I have a dumb question; is it a actually something with doors that you can go inside or its actually a giant monolith like structure? Has the inside ever been showed?
Its really sad to see people sleeping on the pavement while hundreds of buses are idles around them.
But yeah the entire thing is very interesting to watch, I think its about a hour long and its available on their site and on youtube.
Its pretty epic when he reaches the Kaaba and walks around. Even his old parents do it.
I have a dumb question; is it a actually something with doors that you can go inside or its actually a giant monolith like structure? Has the inside ever been showed?
I think this is my point. But it is inevitable that such greed will be blamed on capitalist practices.
fizzelopeguss
Banned
"my Interpretation of a religion is correct, theirs isn't"
There's an original thought...
Gareth Bale
Member
I read different article on this (that I can't seem to find). I'm not sure how strong the argument about stopping idol worship is in relation to knocking down buildings of historical significance.
Is begging still an issue there? My dad told a story once about this family who had their daughter abducted there. When they went back years later they found her begging with limbs missing. They went to the police, who followed her back to this house where some guy was abducting children, performing amputations, and then sending them out to make money for him.
Is begging still an issue there? My dad told a story once about this family who had their daughter abducted there. When they went back years later they found her begging with limbs missing. They went to the police, who followed her back to this house where some guy was abducting children, performing amputations, and then sending them out to make money for him.
-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
The Ka'Ba is "Cube" for arabic.
It is an empty building. You can go inside and walk around, but there is nothing inside, it is to represent the first Mosque.
Choke on the Magic
Banned
I thought there was some black stone or something.
-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
The black glass texture stone is on the outside, on one of the corners of the building. The stone itself has no significance and in Islam the story goes that it was only sent down to mark to Abraham where to build this cube.
Gareth Bale
Member
I thought it feel from heaven or something like that. Don't people try to get as close as possible to it whilst they are circling?
Cheap shot, not necessary in the slightest.
On Topic, yeah what the Saudis have been doing to Mecca lately is all kinds of disgusting.
Canis lupus
Member
-Plasma Reus-
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The story goes that it fell from heaven like an asteroid. But only to show the way and mark the spot.
People try and get as close to it as possible, because by nature, they are more inclined to the stone that fell from heaven than what the actual stone is there for; the cube that is an empty building.
People try and get as close to it as possible, because by nature, they are more inclined to the stone that fell from heaven than what the actual stone is there for; the cube that is an empty building.
gutterboy44
Member
What E Level do I have to reach before they let me in? How do you prove you are a Muslim? Do they quiz you at the gate?
phosphor112
Banned
And people wonder why I absolutely everything that has to do with the Saudi government and the US's love for them.
I heard this on NPR last week. It's upsetting by the time I go do Hajj, they'd have destroyed everything the religion stands for. They've done a fantastic job so far.
I heard this on NPR last week. It's upsetting by the time I go do Hajj, they'd have destroyed everything the religion stands for. They've done a fantastic job so far.
Canis lupus
Member
When I was there I couldn't touch it. Too many people and the ground was burning in the hot sun.
Gentleman Jack
Member
Yeah NPR's interview was pretty eye-opening. I didn't know this was going on and it's sad when historic sites get trashed in the name of commerce.
Canis lupus
Member
Not only that, the Saudis even destroy old Ottoman monuments. Its sad because they destroy century's old monuments to make place for ugly skyscrapers, its nonsensical in the middle of the desert. They just don't know the cultural value of old things.
phosphor112
Banned
Was just about to post it. I'm upset because (not to sound braggish... I'm not even that "good" of a Muslim compared to some others) I'm a sayed, and seeing everything related to my great great (great...) grandfather torn down is an insult. It's revolting, and NPR said it best, it's "state-endorsed Wahhabism" that's destroying it.
These people that will beat someone while they tried to pray. I can go on all day about how they just make me rage.
Oh, and this is exactly why Iran wants to destroy Saudi Arabia, so they don't take a dump on the holiest site with Lavish hotels for the super rich.
They are choosing these places on purpose, because any attempt in keeping the historic sites related to Islam other than the Kaba is considered "blasphemous" and "idolatry."
that complex above the mosque is a hideous abomination. the fact it is built directly on top of islams holy site just makes it worse. the mosque is just brutalised by that thing, completely lost.
imagine that beside the vatican or on temple mount in jerusalem.
in fact it would be a horrible abomination in Las Vegas.
there is another development near the mosque as well. also not good :-(
imagine that beside the vatican or on temple mount in jerusalem.
in fact it would be a horrible abomination in Las Vegas.
there is another development near the mosque as well. also not good :-(
phosphor112
Banned
I wish. Damn them. Seriously. My father went to Hajj and was beaten by the "religious police" because he prayed like a Shia as opposed to a Sunni.
Ever since my father opened my eyes to their absolute hatred to anything not like them, I've hated them.
Hard to blame you. But it sucks that hatred breeds more hatred.
Captain Tuttle
Member
I heard that too. A real shame.
Canis lupus
Member
Mecca and Medina should be an international pilgrim state, kinda like the Vatican.
phosphor112
Banned
Most of the terrorists on 9/11 are from that forsaken place. I haven't been able to live a happy life since 9/11. It sucks when my wife and I are constantly harassed, my mother and sister have been physically attacked for wearing scarves, and my brother subjected to police brutality because his name looks funny (he was slammed on our property, in our driveway, he wasn't charged or arrested, but attacked because fuck all knows).
The House of Saud ruined millions of lives. Not just in Saudi Arabia with their oppression, oppression that the US funds, but those attacks on 9/11. You can blame it on the Taliban, you can blame it on Al-Qaeda, but the rhetoric comes straight from Saudi Arabia.
I would be 100% ok with this idea.
I talk to my friend a lot whose family comes from Syria, and from what I've learned from him. Saudi Arabia has a lot of dark practices and beliefs that exists completely outside the realm of Islam.
I wish I could live to see the end of the struggle in that region of the world.
Al-Qaeda gets most of it's funding from Saudi Arabia and the Taliban were created in religious 'schools' funded mainly by Saudis. Yay for the West's best friends the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia!
-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
I don't think he had a son?
phosphor112
Banned
Yep. It's just I want the blame on the Saud's, because they fund it. Not on Al-Qaeda. They are a mere product of them.
Joel Was Right
Member
That's actually an interesting point. If so, it seems a legitimate act but replacing them with toilets, or rooms for the palace, seems wrong.
Canis lupus
Member
Agreed.
phosphor112
Banned
A lot of people will say Ali was his "son." Not biologically of course, but especially after Abu Talib's death, Muhammad took care of him.
This might be a slight exaggeration on your part. Or a huge exaggeration.
It really pisses me off that my country lets Saudi Arabia completely off the hook due to its obsession of Oil, an refusal to implement a strong alternative energy solution.
When I look deeper its amazing just how connected all the worlds biggest problems are.
more like the west's oil whore, and once they run out we have our untapped reserves... Wooo
The obsessive focus on 'bida' (or heretical innovation) in Saudi Arabia is insane. It leads to a lot of intolerance, hate, and oppression and it's not sound religious thought either. After all the judgement of what God finds acceptable or not is not theirs to make.
phosphor112
Banned
It's not legitimate at all. Wahhabi's are grasping at straws. They don't want the history of the religion to show so they can influence it. They already have considerably. They are such hateful people.
The dead are supposed to be recognized but the Wahhabi's want to destroy Muhammad's grave site, along with all the rest of them. They destroy grave stones and markings where graves are at.. even though during the prophet's time, they made these graves for everyone they could because they SHOULD have a proper burial site.
I really don't know. Saudi Arabia has been doing well with keeping the global oil markets stable for a very long time and the West is kinda completely dependent on reasonably priced oil, no? Saudi is way worse in human rights in every way than Iran is but Iran gets skewered all the time in Western Media but is almost completely silent on the shit that goes on in Saudi Arabia. Libya and Syrian rebels get active Western assistance but when Saudi sends in the TANKS to CRUSH Bahraini rebels the West goes completely into "SEE NO EVIL" monkey mode?
Here are my reasons to not like Saudi family:
They were the ones that revolted against the Ottomans who were at that time were the protectors of Islam. While now they the Saudi say that they are the protectors of Islam, which they are not. Their ideology is the root cause for Muslim terrorism. They are funders of terrorist, yet we (Americans) support them. Destroying historical Islamic sites that are significant to other muslims. I am a Sunni Muslim...
They were the ones that revolted against the Ottomans who were at that time were the protectors of Islam. While now they the Saudi say that they are the protectors of Islam, which they are not. Their ideology is the root cause for Muslim terrorism. They are funders of terrorist, yet we (Americans) support them. Destroying historical Islamic sites that are significant to other muslims. I am a Sunni Muslim...
Traffic jams have always been an issue and will always be an issue. I actually watched a documentary a few years back about all the research the Saudi government invests into ensuring minimal congestion in bottleneck locations. It's hard to say how effective it is though with the increase in pilgrims each year.
It's true that Hajj is becoming more expensive, but from what I've heard, it's more expensive because people are often nominating to stay in fancy hotels rather than tents and standard hotels like they did a decade ago. I will say that I do agree with the statement regarding high class hotels being only affordable by the rich as it goes against the spirit of hajj and the message of equality and humility.
My uncle (a sheikh in Lebanon) and aunt, both nearing 50 years old, went to Hajj for the first time this year. They haven't been able to go before because they're basically living in poverty, but a friend managed to secure the money for their trip. Most of the money was for the plane trip I believe, with the remainder being for basic accommodation. I think if someone really wanted to go hajj, they certainly can, but just don't expect to find accommodation anywhere near the main sites. It's not locked out to only rich, but it seems a distinction is being created between the rich and the poor.
It's true that Hajj is becoming more expensive, but from what I've heard, it's more expensive because people are often nominating to stay in fancy hotels rather than tents and standard hotels like they did a decade ago. I will say that I do agree with the statement regarding high class hotels being only affordable by the rich as it goes against the spirit of hajj and the message of equality and humility.
My uncle (a sheikh in Lebanon) and aunt, both nearing 50 years old, went to Hajj for the first time this year. They haven't been able to go before because they're basically living in poverty, but a friend managed to secure the money for their trip. Most of the money was for the plane trip I believe, with the remainder being for basic accommodation. I think if someone really wanted to go hajj, they certainly can, but just don't expect to find accommodation anywhere near the main sites. It's not locked out to only rich, but it seems a distinction is being created between the rich and the poor.
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