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[Reuenthal]

Good, money is more important than spirituality of Mecca. And it might help loosen some of the tight Islam laws in that society when there is an influx of rich people and tourists. Don't expect a great change but it might help a little.

In any case if you care so much about spirituality and it is so important then surely you can also find it in a place that has also been sufficiently developed to make money. I think it is a great symbol for Muslims, the holiest site of Islam but people actually care to develop it and have it be productive at being a tourist destination and providing services. That is one of the things that Muslims (and everyone) need to do, focus how to improve the economies of their countries.

 

[GungHo]

Imagine if in the future, when religion die out, they turn this into a night club.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=G3OhBlIvtbY#t=15s

(Apologies to those who take this real seriously... it just works.)

 

[crazy monkey]

Ugly architecture. They needed to build sky crappers but not so close. They needed proper traffic flow and roads and management. They do very good job though considering how much traffic it is there during hajj.

 

[Karakand]

This is actually a LARP of the Quarayshi administration.

 

[victreeb3l]

It makes me feel sick. Literally. It truly is an abomination. Seeing all the other cranes where they will completely surround the Kabaa really makes me grit my teeth.

sometimes i fear that ill never be able to go on pilgrimage. i feel like im gonna get upset at something and im gonna say something stupid there and ill never be able to return to the states lol.

if you have netflix, check out national geographic: inside mecca. it shows some amazing things about the hajj but also the fucked up shit going on like the destruction of historical sites and how some worshippers are apparently "more equal" than others in front of God. fuck saudi arabia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=G3OhBlIvtbY#t=15s

(Apologies to those who take this real seriously... it just works.)

lol, reminded me of this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F1Re1IHzy0&t=4m58s

 

[ZiZ]

I'm not sure what the problem is. would pilgrims rather stay in mud huts and dirt roads?

 

[Darth Pinche]

I'm not sure what the problem is. would pilgrims rather stay in mud huts and dirt roads?

My understanding about the journey is that all pilgrims can travel together, regardless of social or economic standing, to be equals. Sharing, helping each other and embracing a sense of humanity. It can be quite beautiful. Having giant hotels there just seems to focus of the exact opposite of the intent.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

Still too big, completely overwhelms the mosque...and everything else. Skyline 101.

 

[ZiZ]

My understanding about the journey is that all pilgrims can travel together, regardless of social or economic standing, to be equals. Sharing, helping each other and embracing a sense of humanity. It can be quite beautiful. Having giant hotels there just seems to focus of the exact opposite of the intent.

isn't that still the case? during the few days of hajj, people have to be in specific locations like "Mina" and "Muzdalifah", and I doubt there are any hotels there.

I agree that the skyline is pretty shitty looking though.

 

[phosphor112]

Good, money is more important than spirituality of Mecca. And it might help loosen some of the tight Islam laws in that society when there is an influx of rich people and tourists. Don't expect a great change but it might help a little.

In any case if you care so much about spirituality and it is so important then surely you can also find it in a place that has also been sufficiently developed to make money. I think it is a great symbol for Muslims, the holiest site of Islam but people actually care to develop it and have it be productive at being a tourist destination and providing services. That is one of the things that Muslims (and everyone) need to do, focus how to improve the economies of their countries.

You clearly don't know what Wahhabism or the House of Saud is.

Have/Can you read the original Arabic and not a translation? Check out Sura 2:126 in its original form and get back to me please.

I replied, still waiting on your response... I PM'ed you hours ago and you've been online since. -___-.

 

[Reuenthal]

You clearly don't know what Wahhabism or the House of Saud is.



I replied, still waiting on your response... I PM'ed you hours ago and you've been online since. -___-.

Wahhabism is one very fundamentalist religious muslim movement, dominant in Saudi Arabia. House of Saud must be the rulers of Saudi Arabia. No I am not very optimistic of much changing there too. Are you saying there is no hope for any change at all? You might be right. The post you quote was not from someone who does not know how backward Saudi Arabia is so obviously one would notice that might help a little is not a strong claim that conflicts with backwardness of Saudi Arabia and their Wahhabism.

I guess the negative is that they are not doing what they do only on the name of development because they target monuments that other Muslims like, and with that I disagree. I don't disagree with economic development to facilitate and profit from tourism, hotels, and promoting consumerism however.

 

[Log4Girlz]

So its saudi arabias tourist mecca

 

[Atenhaus]

I love how Mecca has a metro system, while Riyadh and Jeddah don't. Priorities, mang.

 

[fallagin]

This is why some of them detest western culture...

And America is why Canadians hate the eastern culture I guess.

 

[phosphor112]

Wahhabism is one very fundamentalist religious muslim movement, dominant in Saudi Arabia. House of Saud must be the rulers of Saudi Arabia. No I am not very optimistic of much changing there too. Are you saying there is no hope for any change at all? You might be right. The post you quote was not from someone who does not know how backward Saudi Arabia is so obviously one would notice that might help a little is not a strong claim that conflicts with backwardness of Saudi Arabia and their Wahhabism.

I guess the negative is that they are not doing what they do only on the name of development because they target monuments that other Muslims like, and with that I disagree. I don't disagree with economic development to facilitate and profit from tourism, hotels, and promoting consumerism however.

The US and west basically funds the state endorsed Wahhabism, so I don't see it happening.

 

[victreeb3l]

So its saudi arabias tourist mecca

lol haha

 

[d[-_-]b]

And America is why Canadians hate the eastern culture I guess.

Wut? What have the Chinese, Japanese or Koreans done to them .

 

[replicashooter]

Are you talking about the word "balad"? How does that translate to Jerusalem? That word has been used several dozen times through out the Quran, used mostly as "land" or "city."

Only the Yusuf Ali translation goes to "City of Peace" but current place Mekka is a "City of Peace." It's the location of Al-Haram, where the revolution and revelation of Islam was. I've shown you, in the example I gave above, 3:96, word 7, "bibakkata", which means "at Bakkah."

And look up what Bakkah means.

Spoiler

Mekkah

I was basing my argument on what I'd read here and wanted to confirm if what the site said was true from someone who could read the original Arabic from the relevant suras as I can't.

 

[BrokenEchelon]

Hypocrisy thy (other) name is Religion.

 

[Jacob]

Mo money, Mo hammed.

Fixed.

Spoiler

I'm so sorry.

 

[SmokyDave]

Fixed.

Spoiler

I'm so sorry.

You have underestimated the Count.

 

[phosphor112]

I was basing my argument on what I'd read here and wanted to confirm if what the site said was true from someone who could read the original Arabic from the relevant suras as I can't.

That website is not even close to being unbiased. Dude has a page about UFO's and how it ties into the scriptures or something. Anyway, I won't discredit your argument through red herrings...

Never once is the term "City of Peace" (Jerusalem) used when referring to Mecca. That Surah itself used the word Balad. Balad means city/region/land. Only one translation uses the term City of Peace,.

Also, chapter 90 "Al-Balad" was revealed in current day Mecca as one of the earlier chapters, shortly after Muhammad claimed prophethood.

Here:

So, even though Yusuf Ali was the only one to translate "balad" as "City of Peace" in Chapter 2. In this usage of balad (in chapter 90), it is a unanimous "city."

Sorry to say, that website is just pure propaganda.

 

[replicashooter]

Thanks for that chief, a friend of mine bought the topic up in convo and cited the website as proof which lead me over here as I thought it seemed a bit fishy. Our original conversation was about how Islam, Christianity and Judaism all have the same holy sites yet Mecca is way off to the side and is only favoured by the Muslims.

His argument was that it was a later addition to the faith and he cited that page along with the fact that the Kaaba is hardly mentioned in the Koran.

Also, did you hear the one about the Prophet being poisoned?

 

[phosphor112]

Thanks for that chief, a friend of mine bought the topic up in convo and cited the website as proof which lead me over here as I thought it seemed a bit fishy. Our original conversation was about how Islam, Christianity and Judaism all have the same holy sites yet Mecca is way off to the side and is only favoured by the Muslims.

His argument was that it was a later addition to the faith and he cited that page along with the fact that the Kaaba is hardly mentioned in the Koran.

Also, did you hear the one about the Prophet being poisoned?

Anytime. It's just odd. I've never heard such a claim before from anyone.

Nope. Never have... Ali was hit with a poisoned sword in the head, and I think Hassan, Ali's son was poisoned, but not Muhammad.

But yeah.. Muhammad was born and raised in Mecca. Abu Talib, the man who was his protection lived there. Ali, his nephew was there. I mean, it's clear they are talking about the city he started the "revolution" in.

 

[Drugula's Wrath XXX]

Like I said in the other thread, add booze, bitches and casinos. I might actually go see what this hajj thing is all about if I have enough Liquor in me.

 

[Randy Monk]

Sign at a bar in Pattaya, Thailand.

 

[Drugula's Wrath XXX]

Sign at a bar in Pattaya, Thailand.

Racists assuming all arabs are muslims, bleh!

 

[Heshinsi]

Anytime. It's just odd. I've never heard such a claim before from anyone.

Nope. Never have... Ali was hit with a poisoned sword in the head, and I think Hassan, Ali's son was poisoned, but not Muhammad.

But yeah.. Muhammad was born and raised in Mecca. Abu Talib, the man who was his protection lived there. Ali, his nephew was there. I mean, it's clear they are talking about the city he started the "revolution" in.

I swear I remember being told he was poisoned, even led to his death in the end, hmm.

 

[Dany]

My my religion but all of these news are bumming me out. It sucks to see such a beautiful city destroyed.

 

[WaterChroma]

It's always a shame to see ancient structures destroyed by people. They must be really greedy to want to do this.

 

[Joel Was Right]

Sign at a bar in Pattaya, Thailand.

Awesome sign

 

[Oemenia]

Can I use BNP and EDL marches to represent you? That would be cool right since you love this trump card?

 

[Atrus]

Racists assuming all arabs are muslims, bleh!

Technically, various Muslim countries have laws that actual make it so that anyone born of a certain ethnicity are de facto Muslims and have similar laws on their own people.

I'm technically a Muslim by that fact, since it's printed on my Identification Card (IC) by virtue of my mother being Muslim and the assumption that Muslim women don't marry non-Muslims because they are prohibited by religious laws to do so.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

If turning into Vegas means having terrible city-planning then yes, I am upset that Saudi-Arabia seems to be ruled by tools.

Much as in Las Vegas, in Mecca it's not exactly easy to build a city around tourist events where huge numbers of people arrive, stay a short time, and leave. The traffic jams on Las Vegas Boulevard and the traffic jams in Mecca are little different in this regard. The religious significance is different obviously, but insofar as the logistics and planning are concerned, they are much the same. You can either build out, or you can build up. Since the point of going to Vegas or Mecca is to be near a certain key location during your stay, no one wants to build out. So they build up. Hence these ridiculous high-rise hotels. The Saudis need to learn a bit about how to make them less cheesy, though. Vegas is already the Mecca of Cheesy, the world doesn't need another one.

 

[Aadil]

I wish. Damn them. Seriously. My father went to Hajj and was beaten by the "religious police" because he prayed like a Shia as opposed to a Sunni.

Ever since my father opened my eyes to their absolute hatred to anything not like them, I've hated them.

I'd just like to say, fuck Saudi Arabia, fuck the House of Saud, fuck all GCC nations and their leaders, fuck Wahabis, and fuck the House of Saud.

And if the House of Saud don't like that, then I'll piss on their cat.

 

[GillianSeed79]

I know Jesus is considered to be one of the prophets in Islam, but is the story about the overturning of the money changers' tables in the Koran?

I'm not very religious these days and don't pretend to know a whole hell of a lot about Islam, but I did study the Haji in high school. This...just...seems...wrong. I know idolatry is a big no-no in Islam so there's not as much “worship” if you will of holy sites. Though the Dome of the Rock is obviously super, super important. I just can't imagine if I were Muslim realizing one day I was praying in the direction of something that looks like Ceasar's Palace Casino now. If not for religious reasons, I think they should try to at least look at preserving the site as it was for historic preservation reasons.

Again, I'm not religious these days and this post probably sounds ignorant.

I guess this is what happens with organized religion though. I realize Mecca isn't seen as the “house of God” or anything, but historically speaking the Haji seems similar to what the Jews did when they made the pilgrimage to the temple in ancient times.

Then again I find it really weird that God or his prophets would have “houses” on earth I guess. Then again the Vatican and Sistine Chapel are pretty gaudy IMHO. Like if Jesus came back today and went to the Vatican I'm pretty sure he'd be like “Really guys? Never heard of that give up your wealth to help the poor? If someone steals your money give them your coat? Nothing? Nadda?”.

 

[Drugula's Wrath XXX]

Technically, various Muslim countries have laws that actual make it so that anyone born of a certain ethnicity are de facto Muslims and have similar laws on their own people.

I'm technically a Muslim by that fact, since it's printed on my Identification Card (IC) by virtue of my mother being Muslim and the assumption that Muslim women don't marry non-Muslims because they are prohibited by religious laws to do so.

yeah I know. My dad is a closet atheist while my mom is a muslim who get's muslimier everytime I see her(not in the bad way. Doesn't change the fact that it isn't right to assume all arabs are muslims, I may have been born into a muslim family but I've never been one myself.

 

[Aadil]

I know Jesus is considered to be one of the prophets in Islam, but is the story about the overturning of the money changers' tables in the Koran?

I'm not very religious these days and don't pretend to know a whole hell of a lot about Islam, but I did study the Haji in high school. This...just...seems...wrong. I know idolatry is a big no-no in Islam so there's not as much “worship” if you will of holy sites. Though the Dome of the Rock is obviously super, super important. I just can't imagine if I were Muslim realizing one day I was praying in the direction of something that looks like Ceasar's Palace Casino now. If not for religious reasons, I think they should try to at least look at preserving the site as it was for historic preservation reasons.

Again, I'm not religious these days and this post probably sounds ignorant.

I guess this is what happens with organized religion though. I realize Mecca isn't seen as the “house of God” or anything, but historically speaking the Haji seems similar to what the Jews did when they made the pilgrimage to the temple in ancient times.

Then again I find it really weird that God or his prophets would have “houses” on earth I guess. Then again the Vatican and Sistine Chapel are pretty gaudy IMHO. Like if Jesus came back today and went to the Vatican I'm pretty sure he'd be like “Really guys? Never heard of that give up your wealth to help the poor? If someone steals your money give them your coat? Nothing? Nadda?”.

Your not being ignorant at all. The bit of your text that I highlighted is often what I think.

 

[Count Dookkake]

You have underestimated the Count.

Respect.

 

[replicashooter]

Anytime. It's just odd. I've never heard such a claim before from anyone.

Nope. Never have... Ali was hit with a poisoned sword in the head, and I think Hassan, Ali's son was poisoned, but not Muhammad.

But yeah.. Muhammad was born and raised in Mecca. Abu Talib, the man who was his protection lived there. Ali, his nephew was there. I mean, it's clear they are talking about the city he started the "revolution" in.

Thanks for all the clarification chief, appreciate it. I'll let you know if I ever have any more Koranic queries as you seem to know your stuff. Cheers

 

[MasLegio]

Technically, various Muslim countries have laws that actual make it so that anyone born of a certain ethnicity are de facto Muslims and have similar laws on their own people.

I'm technically a Muslim by that fact, since it's printed on my Identification Card (IC) by virtue of my mother being Muslim and the assumption that Muslim women don't marry non-Muslims because they are prohibited by religious laws to do so.

this is why religion sucks and never ever should be mixed with politics or have any societal power


fuck religion

 

[SmokyDave]

Can I use BNP and EDL marches to represent you? That would be cool right?

Religion =/= nationality. Even so, represent me however you like.

since you love this trump card

It wasn't really a trump card though, was it? It was a direct answer to a question.