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[Grampa Simpson]

All-Time Top50

- Wii Sports up from #20 to #19 and passed the original version of Final Fantasy VII.
- Wii Fit should overtake DKC next week.
- Pokémon Platinum moved up 6 ranks from #49 to #43, could reach #39 next week, lol.
- Mario Kart Wii up from #57 to #53, should enter the Top50 in the next two or three weeks.

This has been buried at the end of a page twice. Needs exposure at the start of a page. Sorry for the duplicate posts.

 

[Spiegel]

Why did you exclude Best/cheaper reeditions in that list Captain Smoker?

 

[apujanata]

I have a feeling that we might see good legs for Phantasy Star 0. DS gamers are mostly casual (IMO), and didn't buy game at launch (first week), and as long as the game is good it will have good legs.

Is there a US release planned for PS0 ? I played Phantasy Star games on PS2, and didn't have PSP (DS is enough for me, since I have a lot of game backlog on it).

 

[ccbfan]

Jesus Damn. First 26 places are all Nintendo/Square/Enix. Holy Fucking Crap.

By the end of this gen it'll probably be top 30 at least.

You know DQ9 and DQ 10 will jump up there as well as Wii Play and Pokemon Plat.

Then there's a few unknowns like MK Wii and AC Wii. Then there's some unknown DS or Wii game that can make it like NSMB2

The only chance for a non-nintendo/SE game is MHP3 unless MHP2G gets some extended monster legs.

 

[Link]

I think that all-time chart should help to disprove the whole "third parties can't compete with Nintendo on the Wii" excuse we've been hearing. Nintendo has always been this dominant with their titles. It never stopped big third party games from selling before.

 

[Captain Smoker]

I think that all-time chart should help to disprove the whole "third parties can't compete with Nintendo on the Wii" excuse we've been hearing. Nintendo has always been this dominant with their titles. It never stopped big third party games from selling before.

That's right, Nintendo is a monster, I mean, they have a All-Time market share of 30%, noone can really compete with them.

 

[Captain Smoker]

Why did you exclude Best/cheaper reeditions in that list Captain Smoker?

This list contains 5.389 games and the other versions are listed somewhere below and I forgot to merge them. ^^

I'll make a list with the reeditions later

 

[Cosmonaut X]

I think that all-time chart should help to disprove the whole "third parties can't compete with Nintendo on the Wii" excuse we've been hearing. Nintendo has always been this dominant with their titles. It never stopped big third party games from selling before.

The excuse has always been ridiculous.

So what if Third Party A can't hope to achieve the megasales Nintendo enjoys? What should be important is whether their game can sell to expectations on a Nintendo system.

 

[cvxfreak]

The only chance for a non-nintendo/SE game is MHP3 unless MHP2G gets some extended monster legs.

Monster Hunter Portable 2nd G will never move up on that list because it's been discontinued. However, counting its PSP The Best version, it would surpass the 5 or 6 games in front of it. MHP3 looks to be quite far off (probably will hit a year after the Wii version) so 2nd should do well.

 

[Link]

The excuse has always been ridiculous.

So what if Third Party A can't hope to achieve the megasales Nintendo enjoys? What should be important is whether their game can sell to expectations on a Nintendo system.

That's what I'm saying. Instead, they decide not to try at all and just throw that excuse out there.

 

[Spiegel]

This list contains 5.389 games and the other versions are listed somewhere below and I forgot to merge them. ^^

I'll make a list with the reeditions later

Awesome, thanks

 

[ccbfan]

Monster Hunter Portable 2nd G will never move up on that list because it's been discontinued. However, counting its PSP The Best version, it would surpass the 5 or 6 games in front of it. MHP3 looks to be quite far off (probably will hit a year after the Wii version) so 2nd should do well.

Woah that not including the best version? Isn't that just a greatest hits version? Kinda strange not to just combine the two.

It kinda makes this list completely invalid though. How many games have best versions that was not counted? That could change the order a lot.

 

[Lightning]

That's what I'm saying. Instead, they decide not to try at all and just throw that excuse out there.

Are Nintendo themselves trying? Are they even bothering to talk to 3rd parties about new titles? When I look at Captain Smokers list I am not amused in seeing Wii Sports, Wii Fit, Wii Play being the front runner titles with nothing else charting.

The only thing Nintendo have delivered for their loyal hardcore fanbase are their standard franchise sequels Mario, Zelda, Metroid etc....

If anyone is to blame, Nintendo is to blame. They made this bed for themselves.

 

[schuelma]

Are Nintendo themselves trying? Are they even bothering to talk to 3rd parties about new titles? When I look at Captain Smokers list I am not amused in seeing Wii Sports, Wii Fit, Wii Play being the front runner titles with nothing else charting.

The only thing Nintendo have delivered for their loyal hardcore fanbase are their standard franchise sequels Mario, Zelda, Metroid etc....

If anyone is to blame, Nintendo is to blame. They made this bed for themselves.

I'm not sure of your point, honestly. Nintendo has released most of its biggest franchises already. They have done well. What they didn't do was appeal outside of the usual Nintendo demographic. They announced a slew of more traditional stuff at the October conference.

As far as 3rd parties go, while its hard to know exactly what effort Nintendo is making, they did get Monster Hunter 3, Samurai Warriors 3, the next mainline Tales, and of course Dragon Quest X.

 

[felipeko]

I'm not sure of your point, honestly. Nintendo has released most of its biggest franchises already. They have done well. What they didn't do was appeal outside of the usual Nintendo demographic. They announced a slew of more traditional stuff at the October conference.

As far as 3rd parties go, while its hard to know exactly what effort Nintendo is making, they did get Monster Hunter 3, Samurai Warriors 3, the next mainline Tales, and of course Dragon Quest X.

Agreed. As far as Japan is concerned, Nintendo is really trying...

 

[cvxfreak]

Woah that not including the best version? Isn't that just a greatest hits version? Kinda strange not to just combine the two.

It kinda makes this list completely invalid though. How many games have best versions that was not counted? That could change the order a lot.

Yeah, Media Create counts all SKUs separately (except for hardware bundles and LEs). So Pokemon stays separate, so does Tales of Hearts, etc.

Famitsu combines Pokemon and ToH, etc., but keeps budget priced re-releases separate. NPD disregards budget SKUs and keeps the totals consistent. :lol

 

[Lightning]

I'm not sure of your point, honestly. Nintendo has released most of its biggest franchises already. They have done well. What they didn't do was appeal outside of the usual Nintendo demographic. They announced a slew of more traditional stuff at the October conference.

As far as 3rd parties go, while its hard to know exactly what effort Nintendo is making, they did get Monster Hunter 3, Samurai Warriors 3, the next mainline Tales, and of course Dragon Quest X.

Nintendo in Japan have done excellent, and support and games that cater for the Japanese from 3rd parties has been very good. My post was more for outside Japan, which makes it irrelevant and off-topic but was more in response to Link's "3rd parties aren't trying and are just making excuses" comment which I took as meaning world wide because you just pointed out that the Wii is getting excellent Japanese support catering for the Japanese audience.

 

[Azelover]

Are Nintendo themselves trying? Are they even bothering to talk to 3rd parties about new titles?

Yes they are. They're not gonna be forceful though, and neither are Microsoft nor Sony doing that, it's just how market expectations have been set up, you're assuming something that is very false by making those accusations.

Third parties have made a bed for themselves(by that I mean early planning), and they're fearful of supporting the Wii now. Also, it doesn't help that market analysis is consistently projecting a Wii downfall, and the rise of the two systems. Game development is planned ahead of time, so the projection is the most important thing. As far as the projections go, there are reasons, but frankly the size of companies like Microsoft and Sony don't help it, there's much more at stake here than just games, and that adds to the pressure of the market.

The market is always in constant doubt of the Wii, and third parties plan around the market of tomorrow because games take development time. In their minds it doesn't help investing large sums of money into a Wii game that will come out 2 years from now if the market is saying, for instance, that it will not be selling two years from now. Or that third party games don't sell well on the system and therefore a large investment isn't safe, the Wii of course is always proving them wrong but it doesn't really matter in the mean time.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

The problem with your comparison is that ToS is only a huge success.... in the US. You can't really compare US trends with JP trends. In Japan ToS sales on the GC weren't anything outstanding or out of the ordinary for a Tales game.

Ugh I forgot that whoops. But yeah surely you can see where I am coming from with my post.

 

[bttb]

.

 

[linsivvi]

Jesus Damn. First 26 places are all Nintendo/Square/Enix. Holy Fucking Crap.

Top 10 all Nintendo, and 9 of them are handheld games.

 

[HK-47]

Top 10 all Nintendo, and 9 of them are handheld games.

Soon the Top 15 will be all Nintendo

 

[bttb]

.

 

[linsivvi]

Soon the Top 15 will be all Nintendo

Yes, and it looks like Wii Fit will get into the top 10.

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

44 of the Top 50 are Nintendo/Square-Enix, too. Utter domination.

This list contains 5.389 games and the other versions are listed somewhere below and I forgot to merge them. ^^

I'll make a list with the reeditions later

On that note, is there any reason that you have Yellow and Crystal included with Red/Blue and Gold/Silver, but Emerald (not in the Top 50) and Platinum separate from Ruby/Sapphire and Diamond/Pearl?

 

[donny2112]

On that note, is there any reason that you have Yellow and Crystal included with Red/Blue and Gold/Silver, but Emerald (not in the Top 50) and Platinum separate from Ruby/Sapphire and Diamond/Pearl?

It's the way Famitsu last tracked them.

Donny should make a special Famitsu sales thread for this week, since we're not getting a MC update. It would be much better for continuing discussion instead of filling up this thread.

Okay.

 

[Link]

44 of the Top 50 are Nintendo/Square-Enix, too. Utter domination.

And Capcom has 4 of the remaining 6 spots.

 

[bttb]

.

 

[jakncoke]

lol at Nba Live selling 40k, didn't think it was possible to get that high.

 

[bttb]

.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

So with the talk of GEIMIN/YSO's yearly charts, I wonder if there are any older? Seems doubtful if they haven't already come up, but while 1996 allows us to see the big games all the way back to N64 launch, it misses the early years of PS1 and Saturn.

Those are good points. But the one thing that baffles me is why someone who owns a DS and PSP, and who bought Phantasy Star Portable and liked it, would not then want to buy Phantasy Star Zero now. It makes very little sense to me.

They could be not ready for another game in the same series yet just 5 months later.

 

[donny2112]

So with the talk of GEIMIN/YSO's yearly charts, I wonder if there are any older?

Using the 1996 Top 100, you can figure out the end of year 1995 sales for a few games. IIRC, the problem then lies in the fact that using the point totals from the Nifty site doesn't lead to a consistent mutliplier for that set of games through the end of 1995. Therefore, it could be that Famitsu only feels confident in their totals from 1996 on (at least confident enough to have them be scrutinized in the yearly publications) and so doesn't put out charts of earlier data.

 

[dabra]

- Taiko Drum Wii is already the #3 3rd party Wii game and should get #2 pretty quickly. Looks like it might meet Namco's expectations (400K I believe). Though the Type A part of me is still upset that the Famitsu leaker still has the LTD wrong. It's 236K dammit!! :lol

Taiko Drum Wii

114,610
85,606
51,000

LTD 251,000

 

[donny2112]

Taiko Drum Wii

114,610
85,606
51,000

LTD 251,000

Yeah, I was noticing that. The leaked second week total of 70K was wrong, but the LTD was right the entire time. :lol

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Taiko Drum Wii

114,610
85,606
51,000

LTD 251,000

Wow. Garaph still only has the first week in, but here's the entire Taiko group through three weeks. Until now the highest three-week total was about 160K.

For anything to reach 250K we need to go to week 7, when PS2 Taiko 3 hit the holiday bump.

 

[Liabe Brave]

I think that all-time chart should help to disprove the whole "third parties can't compete with Nintendo on the Wii" excuse we've been hearing. Nintendo has always been this dominant with their titles. It never stopped big third party games from selling before.

Yes it did, unless you were Square/Enix; at least, selling above a certain ceiling. The statement "third parties can't compete with Nintendo on the Wii" isn't meant to express something shocking or unusual; it's just a prediction of a continued past pattern from Nintendo platforms.

Now, as Cosmonaut X pointed out, you don't have to achieve such supersales to make money; Konami and Namco could still turn a profit during the last decade. And indeed, many publishers are making money on Wii games. But it is a reason to cap your budgets when working on Nintendo platforms. The chart shows that there are good reasons why publishers are reluctant to attempt high-budget AAA games on Wii.

 

[donny2112]

But it is a reason to cap your budgets when working on Nintendo platforms.

How in the world did you come to that conclusion? "Nintendo puts their best on the system and gets great sales, so we shouldn't try as hard." How does that make any sense?

 

[HK-47]

Yes it did, unless you were Square/Enix; at least, selling above a certain ceiling. The statement "third parties can't compete with Nintendo on the Wii" isn't meant to express something shocking or unusual; it's just a prediction of a continued past pattern from Nintendo platforms.

Now, as Cosmonaut X pointed out, you don't have to achieve such supersales to make money; Konami and Namco could still turn a profit during the last decade. And indeed, many publishers are making money on Wii games. But it is a reason to cap your budgets when working on Nintendo platforms. The chart shows that there are good reasons why publishers are reluctant to attempt high-budget AAA games on Wii.

I dont see many none SE games on there from the Playstation systems? Should they give up? I dont even get your reasoning

 

[Gozan]

Damn, Donkey Kong Country sold 3 million in Japan!
Hey, has anyone made a list of the top-selling western-developed games?

 

[BishopLamont]

Damn, Donkey Kong Country sold 3 million in Japan!
Hey, has anyone made a list of the top-selling western-developed games?

Fully deserves it, god knows how much I want DKC4 but I'm afraid we'll never ever get it.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Damn, Donkey Kong Country sold 3 million in Japan!

Pretty crazy. The GBA versions didn't hold up well at all compared to that.

 

[donny2112]

Donkey Kong Country sold 3 million in Japan!

DKC2 sold 1.5 million, and DKC3 got to 1.2 million.

 

[shykyoichi]

Nintendo in Japan have done excellent, and support and games that cater for the Japanese from 3rd parties has been very good. My post was more for outside Japan, which makes it irrelevant and off-topic but was more in response to Link's "3rd parties aren't trying and are just making excuses" comment which I took as meaning world wide because you just pointed out that the Wii is getting excellent Japanese support catering for the Japanese audience.

Maybe because the Western audience has a different demographics. More like that staple games always wins over new IPs. (ex. Madden)

 

[Liabe Brave]

I dont see many none SE games on there from the Playstation systems? Should they give up? I dont even get your reasoning

Being only a top 50 for all systems throws off the distribution. Using Moor-Angol's site, here's a clearer depiction, showing how systems look in isolation:

N64: First third-party game at #23, 33 of top 50 are Nintendo
Gamecube: First third-party game at #16, 35 of top 50 are Nintendo
Wii: First third-party game at #12, 27 of top 50 are Nintendo

PS1: First third-party game at #1, 11 of top 50 are Sony
PS2: First third-party game at #1, 6 of top 50 are Sony
PS3: First third-party game at #1, 18 of top 50 are Sony

The Wii is a clear improvement over its predecessors in terms of opening space for third parties. Similarly, the PS3 is clearly moving in the opposite direction, with Sony pushing more product themselves trying to keep it afloat. But the general contrast is just as obvious. Success isn't the driver here. The PS2 and Wii patterns are very different, and so are those of the PS3 and Gamecube, despite the similarity of hardware sales in both cases.

Again, I don't think that third parties should abandon Wii development--quite the opposite, actually. But their sales expectations for each title (and consequently their budgets) will need to be more carefully metered than with last generation's leader. To put it another way, maximum possible sales on Wii are much higher than on PS3. But if you're a third party, your chances of reaching that theoretical maximum are lower on Nintendo's system. This attenuates the installed base advantage.

 

[donny2112]

N64: First third-party game at #23, 33 of top 50 are Nintendo
Gamecube: First third-party game at #16, 35 of top 50 are Nintendo
Wii: First third-party game at #12, 27 of top 50 are Nintendo

PS1: First third-party game at #1, 11 of top 50 are Sony
PS2: First third-party game at #1, 6 of top 50 are Sony
PS3: First third-party game at #1, 18 of top 50 are Sony

There's your problem. You're looking at rankings instead of actual units sold. Therefore, your statement that third-parties shouldn't spend as much on Wii development is still lacking a basis. They don't (or at least shouldn't) care about rankings. They care about units.

 

[Liabe Brave]

There's your problem. You're looking at rankings instead of actual units sold. Therefore, your statement that third-parties shouldn't spend as much on Wii development is still lacking a basis. They don't (or at least shouldn't) care about rankings. They care about units.

No, I took this very much into account. The absolute numbers aren't exactly a slamdunk win like you imply. The highest-selling third-party game on Wii was handily outsold by the highest-selling third-party game on PS3. The next-highest-selling third-party game on Wii has been outsold by four other third-party PS3 games. Yes, the decline in total numbers after that is steeper on PS3; yes, the Wii games were much cheaper to make. But given the gigantic gap in installed base, I think those results are significant.

There is more money waiting to be made on Wii; that's why I said publishers should be putting more resources into development there. But whenever someone points out the comparative performance, it's often met with some variation of the argument, "third parties just need to devote resources to their games like Nintendo does if they want to reap the rewards like Nintendo does." But I think the numbers show that no one can reap the rewards like Nintendo does (only S-E comes close). Therefore, budgeting the same amount per marquee title simply isn't a viable strategy.

There's room for a larger number of expensive, high-tier third-party games on Wii. And publishing for Wii, at whatever budget, is a must for any Japan-focused company. My point is that, despite all this, despite the overwhelming win Nintendo has secured, top-of-the-line time and expense might still not be a good idea for many projects on Wii.

 

[donny2112]

But I think the numbers show that no one can reap the rewards like Nintendo does (only S-E comes close). Therefore, budgeting the same amount per marquee title simply isn't a viable strategy.

It is if the ROI is better. You're acting as if there was a PS2 for third-parties this generation. There isn't. 360 is within 20% of the Xbox in the U.S. (its best territory) for software at the same lifetime point. PS3 is selling GameCube levels in the U.S. for software. Wii is selling PS2 levels in the U.S. for software. The difference is that third-parties put the majority of their budgets on the PS360, and all they got for their troubles was Xbox redux and a third-party friendly GameCube. Also, the "PS2-like" console is way more weighted toward first-party, but 1) it's still a much bigger pie than the other two and 2) the development costs are way below the competition.

If you say you want third-parties to "cap" their Wii budgets and keep the extra money in their pocket. Fine. If you say you want them to "cap" their Wii budgets and put the extra money in PS360 development, you're just being silly.

That's in the U.S. Wii is horrible pretty dang bad for core games, in general, in Japan, but the PS360 is floundering so much that it still isn't a viable alternative. Therefore even Japan-centric companies shouldn't "cap" Wii budgets to fund PS360 projects.

 

[Fredescu]

But I think the numbers show that no one can reap the rewards like Nintendo does (only S-E comes close). Therefore, budgeting the same amount per marquee title simply isn't a viable strategy.

Nintendo make a lot of games which are often very successful. Why do you need to conclude that companies can't make a lot of money on Nintendo consoles when the simplest explanation for those numbers are a weaker first party and strong mainline S-E support during the PS1 and PS2 era? Do you expect DQ: X to sell significantly less than DQ: VIII?

The chart at the top of the page suggests that only games from Nintendo, S-E, and Capcom have sold more than two million on any platform, so there is possibly a ceiling but I'm not sure that it's platform specific.

 

[schuelma]

Taiko Drum Wii

114,610
85,606
51,000

LTD 251,000

Thank you very much..that disparity was disturbing me. :lol

 

[Link]

No, I took this very much into account. The absolute numbers aren't exactly a slamdunk win like you imply. The highest-selling third-party game on Wii was handily outsold by the highest-selling third-party game on PS3. The next-highest-selling third-party game on Wii has been outsold by four other third-party PS3 games. Yes, the decline in total numbers after that is steeper on PS3; yes, the Wii games were much cheaper to make. But given the gigantic gap in installed base, I think those results are significant.

This is a completely flawed argument. Look at the games you're comparing. The newest MGS against a DQ spinoff, etc. It's not apples to apples. Of course the PS3 stuff is going to sell better when they are bigger, more popular IP's.

Not to mention the cost differential.