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[P90]

well, show me the rewards. Since there have been zero, I will discuss these hypotheticals the same as the alternative. There's nothing stupid to the viewpoint, except when it's not marching to the beat of the solitary drum that surrounds DS these days. If the 'develop interest' just creates the same garbage, which so far it has, and that's what's inhabiting the majority of the top ten, then I'm not going to celebrate. The opposite must then be true: I must ignore or mourn, and I choose to just be unhappy about the direction of the industry.

I rarely participate in these threads anymore for that reason, this is an exception.

When I see these things you discuss, these magical lights at the end of the tunnel where in grandma starts to play Fire Emblem and developer rewards create risk and creativity, then there will be some firm foundation for this discussion to continue at any reasonable length. Otherwise, the sort of stance you take toward this perspective is not surprising to me.

Why does gaming have to fit YOUR image of what gaming "really" is? Ami, you aren't alone among the "Real Gaming" Fascists, so I throw my quetion out to all of them out there.

 

[GaimeGuy]

Here's another one --

FFIII on the DS probably cost 1/8th of what FFXII did to develop, in addition to the fact that it's a remake instead of a new FF game.

So if FFIII sells 1-1.5 million copies, lets just say Square-Enix isn't going to be complaining one bit.

And that means more Square-Enix support for my DS.

touché

 

[Xellotah]

So much talk about 'non-games' when the top-two selling titles this week aren't even 'non-games'.

Or are we assuming anything that sells on the DS is a Non-game.

 

[Pureauthor]

No, now they go 'It's Final Fantasy and Mario, of course they sell well'.

 

[Amir0x]

Why does gaming have to fit YOUR image of what gaming "really" is? Ami, you aren't alone among the "Real Gaming" Fascists, so I throw my quetion out to all of them out there.

it doesn't. but as long as that crap as it at the top, people like Tabris won't have any reason to celebrate - and rightfully so. That was the only point, really.

No, now they go 'It's Final Fantasy and Mario, of course they sell well'.

Well from my perspective, there was no tune changing. I always said this, I predicted extremely high numbers for FF and you can see for yourself.

 

[Peru]

The stuff that has sold well before keeps on selling well. The stuff that has sold OK sells OK now. In addition some stuff that hasn't been made before sells exceptionally well. What's the problem? There's no 'new direction' to mourn of.. the same type of games we've loved for so long keeps on getting made, and sells as well as before. The new thing is that a new path with software of a different mindset has increased the market, finding an untapped core. How this can be a problem or anything to 'mourn' for anyone is beyond me, or maybe there are other motivations behind it.

In any ways, there's nothing to whine or complain about in these charts, just a very unusual boost in software interest. I don't play brain-training or nintendogs, but I'm happy to see other software titles only gaining when sharing a system with these mega-sellers.

 

[Pureauthor]

I would've loved to see your prediction for FFIII prior to the DS becoming the phenonemon it is in Japan.

The stuff that has sold well before keeps on selling well. The stuff that has sold OK sells OK now. In addition some stuff that hasn't been made before sells exceptionally well. What's the problem? There's no 'new direction' to mourn of.. the same type of games we've loved for so long keeps on getting made, and sells as well as before. The new thing is that a new path with software of a different mindset has increased the market, finding an untapped core. How this can be a problem or anything to 'mourn' for anyone is beyond me, or maybe I see some other motivations behind it, finally an argument for your case... ?

In any ways, there's nothing to whine or complain about in these charts, just a very unusual boost in software interest. I don't play brain-training or nintendogs, but I'm happy to see other software titles only gaining when sharing a system with these mega-sellers.

Don't forget some stuff sells better than before now.

 

[soundwave05]

Mario and Final Fantasy sell well ... but these numbers are unusually high even for those franchises.

No Mario game has sold as well as NSMB since Super Mario World in 1990.

No handheld Final Fantasy game has sold this well in ages.

That means the teams behind New Super Mario Bros. 2 and what ever other Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest projects are coming for the DS (and you know they are) are going to be a bigger priority overall for those companies.

Doing a Final Fantasy for Square-Enix now isn't just a throw-away thing that Square-Enix does on the side to their console FFs. With the rising costs of FF games and shrinking console sales, the DS stuff Square-Enix does is going to have greater importance ... which is good for a DS owner.

 

[Mar]

It's a bit of a pointless argument really. People like different things. I like what I like, some dude likes what he likes. The Japanese like a hell of a lot of what they like.

The Japanese chart doesn't reflect my game buying / playing habits. But I don't take any insult by them. While others might for whatever reason.

I think in the end we can all be sure of one very true fact: The Japanese are crazy.

 

[Pureauthor]

Good crazy, or at least as far as videogame and Manga/Anime design goes.

 

[Amir0x]

I would've loved to see your prediction for FFIII prior to the DS becoming the phenonemon it is in Japan.

It would have been the same high. From the start, I felt FFIII would have done extremely well - it's not like a port of FFIV advance, it's the first true FF remake from 2D to 3D. It's a huge difference from the other handheld FFs previous, and it doesn't have the same priority. There's more work that went into it, and thus more incentive to buy.

 

[P90]

it doesn't. but as long as that crap as it at the top, people like Tabris won't have any reason to celebrate - and rightfully so. That was the only point, really.

Personally, I am quite enjoying the new "non-games", but that is beside the point. For those that don't, it will be the successes not matter the type of game that fund other games, including "real" games and out in left field games.

 

[Pureauthor]

It's been proven before that the amount of 'work' put into a game has little bearing on how well it sells.

Regardless, we know sales have outstripped SE's expectations, which basically equals more of the 'realgame' love.

 

[AniHawk]

it doesn't. but as long as that crap as it at the top, people like Tabris won't have any reason to celebrate - and rightfully so. That was the only point, really.

Well like I said, it's been like this for a while now. What Tabris seems to be doing is bitching about what other people like, and that's where the argument stems from.

EDIT: NeoGAF is telling me to install a plugin for some reason.

 

[P90]

It would have been the same high. From the start, I felt FFIII would have done extremely well - it's not like a port of FFIV advance, it's the first true FF remake from 2D to 3D. It's a huge difference from the other handheld FFs previous, and it doesn't have the same priority. There's more work that went into it, and thus more incentive to buy.

I agree. It is a fresh take on an old game, like REmake. Much more incentive than a straight port. (Would love to have a Parasite Eve remake or a PE III on any platform).

 

[Amir0x]

It's been proven before that the amount of 'work' put into a game has little bearing on how well it sells.

When it comes to FF, I think it's quite clear that a true blue remake will gain more attention than a regular port. Uhm, but that's beside the point - you asked how my prediction would have been, and that is why from the start I had high expectations for FFIII.

Personally, I am quite enjoying the new "non-games", but that is beside the point. For those that don't, it will be the successes not matter the type of game that fund other games, including "real" games and out in left field games.

Well, I'll believe it when I see it is all. But, this topic is really circles... I didn't mean to discuss it for so long, i just meant to try to expand on Tabris point.

 

[Archie]

I, for one, am glad that Nintendo is saving the industry (yet again) and has removed us from the handheld ghetto.

 

[Pureauthor]

When it comes to FF, I think it's quite clear that a true blue remake will gain more attention than a regular port. Uhm, but that's beside the point - you asked how my prediction would have been, and that is why from the start I had high expectations for FFIII.

And frankly, I think those predictions wouldn't be accurate were the handheld situation reversed. This isn't something like FFVII - it doesn't have the fanbase to fall back on, neither would Square bother to market it as extensively.

Heck, this is going to outsell Dirge of Cerberus, and that was a brand new game.

Well, I'll believe it when I see it is all. But, this topic is really circles... I didn't mean to discuss it for so long, i just meant to try to expand on Tabris point.

Aren't we already seeing the beginning of it? I mean, look at NSMB and FFIII. Even if you predicted such high sales, the devs obviously didn't, and so they'll want to cash in on this more. Not to mention the infamous month of December 2005. NO company with a sound mind can ignore sales like that.

 

[linsivvi]

Well like I said, it's been like this for a while now. What Tabris seems to be doing is bitching about what other people like, and that's where the argument stems from.

QFT. This is akin to a fan of an alternative rock band complaining how his band's latest album got outsold by the winner of the American Idol by 100 times.

 

[Amir0x]

And frankly, I think those predictions wouldn't be accurate were the handheld situation reversed. This isn't something like FFVII - it doesn't have the fanbase to fall back on, neither would Square bother to market it as extensively.

Heck, this is going to outsell Dirge of Cerberus, and that was a brand new game.

DoC was a crappy shooter, please don't compare it. Japanese people love Final Fantasy titles for being RPGs. FFIII was a true blue remake from 2D to 3D of a FF that was voted for by many consumers in the first place, and it's a numbered FF game to boot. It has a fanbase to fallback on. A fanbase millions of users large.

anyway, that's all i have to say on that. i think i answered your question.

Aren't we already seeing the beginning of it? I mean, look at NSMB and FFIII. Even if you predicted such high sales, the devs obviously didn't, and so they'll want to cash in on this more. Not to mention the infamous month of December 2005. NO company with a sound mind can ignore sales like that.

NSMB is just another Mario game, and a Nintendo published title to boot. On DS. As much as it is selling well, Mario platformers were NEVER in danger of stopping being made. And neither was any FF game. These are not niche games, Nintendo and SquareEnix will be making them 'til the ends of time.

Like I said, when I start seeing the Fire Emblems and Okamis of the world do this I'll be genuinely impressed. And that's my final word, for serious, kinda sleepy.

 

[Lapsed]

Right, I have accepted it. The whole point of the discussion is why one wouldn't celebrate this change, as Tabris brought up, and I believe it's firmly been established there's legitimate concerns for people.

No doubt, you either learn to live with these things or you don't.

OK, my misunderstanding. When most games were 'Adventure Games', if someone said, "Gaming IS adventure games. There will never be a day when gaming stops being adventure games" they'd be in denial. They couldn't imagine adventure games being replaced with something else. There are some who can't imagine gaming being different from what they grew up and/or are used to. Glad you're not one of them.

Hopefully, you will like whatever gaming turns into next. If you don't, then you might become a lapsed gamer such as the 'old schoolers' who turned into lapsed gamers when the 3d revolution came.

Sorry, had to mention lapsed gamers and bold it for Anihawk. We don't want him to be a broken record all night.

The only problem is that the idea of games has been evolving fairly consistently, and the variety getting larger. I like Brain Training, but it's not evolution. It's not something that hasn't been done before.

It's not evolution in graphics or horsepower. But it is evolution in controller interface. Without that touch screen, would Brain Trainer or Nintendogs have been a success?

With two of three consoles having motion controllers, I think its safe to say that the non-motion controller games will wane in the future and soon they may all become motion based.

Aside from the changing interfaces, I think the next big change to come to games will be the Internet. We have yet to tap its potential and MMORPGs are just the start. Consider something like WiiConnect24. By having access to streaming data off the Internet, does this mean the game can "change" on you? Does this mean games will no longer be static?

Fun times ahead.

 

[soundwave05]

If Nintendo AND Square-Enix are big on a platform ... well that basically means every Japanese developer has no choice anymore but to support such a platform strongly.

Japanese devs have a herd mentality. Where Square-Enix goes, they go.

 

[AniHawk]

OK, my misunderstanding. When most games were 'Adventure Games', if someone said, "Gaming IS adventure games. There will never be a day when gaming stops being adventure games" they'd be in denial. They couldn't imagine adventure games being replaced with something else. There are some who can't imagine gaming being different from what they grew up and/or are used to. Glad you're not one of them.

Hopefully, you will like whatever gaming turns into next. If you don't, then you might become a lapsed gamer such as the 'old schoolers' who turned into lapsed gamers when the 3d revolution came.

Sorry, had to mention lapsed gamers and bold it for Anihawk. We don't want him to be a broken record all night.



It's not evolution in graphics or horsepower. But it is evolution in controller interface. Without that touch screen, would Brain Trainer or Nintendogs have been a success?

With two of three consoles having motion controllers, I think its safe to say that the non-motion controller games will wane in the future and soon they may all become motion based.

Aside from the changing interfaces, I think the next big change to come to games will be the Internet. We have yet to tap its potential and MMORPGs are just the start. Consider something like WiiConnect24. By having access to streaming data off the Internet, does this mean the game can "change" on you? Does this mean games will no longer be static?

Fun times ahead.

Thank you. Now I can sleep.

 

[linsivvi]

Aside from the changing interfaces, I think the next big change to come to games will be the Internet. We have yet to tap its potential and MMORPGs are just the start. Consider something like WiiConnect24. By having access to streaming data off the Internet, does this mean the game can "change" on you? Does this mean games will no longer be static?
Fun times ahead.

Wiisident Wiivil MMO.

Believe.

 

[Pureauthor]

DoC was a crappy shooter, please don't compare it. Japanese people love Final Fantasy titles for being RPGs. FFIII was a true blue remake from 2D to 3D of a FF that was voted for by many consumers in the first place, and it's a numbered FF game to boot. It has a fanbase to fallback on. A fanbase millions of users large.

anyway, that's all i have to say on that. i think i answered your question.

Huh. I guess we're reading the Japanese market differently, then. Agree to disagree it is.

NSMB is just another Mario game, and a Nintendo published title to boot. On DS. As much as it is selling well, Mario platformers were NEVER in danger of stopping being made. And neither was any FF game. These are not niche games, Nintendo and SquareEnix will be making them 'til the ends of time.

Like I said, when I start seeing the Fire Emblems and Okamis of the world do this I'll be genuinely impressed. And that's my final word, for serious, kinda sleepy.

Alright then, Children of Mana. And once again, we have to go by what we have, don't we? When Fire Emblem comes out, let's see how it sells. (Don't think we've got much chance for Okami. :lol) Until then, we've seen that big name games get better sales than expected. And that's good enough for me.

'Night,

 

[jesusraz]

05 NDS Cooking Navi - 37.326 / 384.045

Only a matter of time before this is confirmed for the West...hopefully with region specific dishes, as per that 'fake' interview with Nintendo Spain.

 

[Square2005]

Only a matter of time before this is confirmed for the West...hopefully with region specific dishes, as per that 'fake' interview with Nintendo Spain.

It's teh new hardcore non-gamers FTW!

 

[Shiggy]

Only a matter of time before this is confirmed for the West...hopefully with region specific dishes, as per that 'fake' interview with Nintendo Spain.

This game is confirmed to be released in Europe, at least they announced it at Games Convention
And was that interview really faked? What did it say?

 

[Xellotah]

Only a matter of time before this is confirmed for the West...hopefully with region specific dishes, as per that 'fake' interview with Nintendo Spain.

Chinese and italian cooking please.

 

[ziran]

amazing to see a ds dominated top 10!

if we're talking about benefiting the individual, well, what's happening in japan is benefiting me more than anything else in gaming! i'm loving it. as far as i'm concerned nintendo's new strategy is genius!!!

not only do i have the best developed nintendo games in years, a real return to form, with them already making on ds some amazing games, but we have third parties really getting it and making games i love again. i win at every corner, yay me!


while nintendo is still publishing loads of ds games, the amount their developing internally has reduced significantly. we're seeing nintendo back to form in every way. it's clear their strategy is to throw huge resources at a console to establish in within the first couple of years, then let third parties take over (to an extent). i expect this is also the plan with wii.

 

[jesusraz]

This game is confirmed to be released in Europe, at least they announced it at Games Convention And was that interview really faked? What did it say?

It was re-confirmed in Leipzig? Hmm, must have missed that one... Anyway, good news then!

The interview wasn't fake (as far as I'm aware), but people think it was because Vandal was told by Nintendo to take it down due to mis-translations appearing all over the Internet. But the interviewee (Nico Wegnez) stated that the cooking game and English Training were coming to Europe. Now, we definitely know the English one is coming, and you say Cooking Navi is as well, so all is good with the world (interview is here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=108123&highlight=spanish+interview

Fish, chips, peas and gravy for the English edition, please. Haggis for Scotland, stew for Ireland and laverbread for the Welsh version...*ahem* [/stereotype]

 

[soundwave05]

Blame current mainstream game fans for not supporting stuff like Okami.

The DS can do a lot, but it can't ensure every good game is going to sell well. The Famicom or Playstation couldn't do that, no entertainment medium has that.

Plenty of great movies flop at the box office or are out grossed by lesser films. Good books never get read. Good TV shows get cancelled. Good bands/artists never get signed. And yes, some times good video games don't get the commercial success they deserve.

But that isn't the fault of the person buying Brain Training ... chances are they are a fringe/casual player, how the hell are they supposed to even know what Okami is from the 1000s of other game titles on the market?

It's the fault of the "Playstation" audience for not getting into things like Okami. They are more hardcore type players and should support those types of games moreso.

 

[jesusraz]

It's the fault of the "Playstation" audience for not getting into things like Okami.

And it's Capcom's fault for not realising something like that would have worked far better in the current DS market...

 

[marc^o^]

Knowing Okami is a gem nobody played, it would make sense to port it on the Wii and advertize it around the new wiipaint controls. Easy port. Second chance.

 

[MrPonx]

Knowing Okami is a gem nobody played, it would make sense to port it on the Wii and advertize it around the new wiipaint controls. Easy port. Second chance.

it didn't sell in Japan, maybe it will sell in US?

I'm buying this game day 1, and I'll buy a remake for it on Wii any second, it just fits for the console and the control scheme

 

[MrPonx]

And it's Capcom's fault for not realising something like that would have worked far better in the current DS market...

you're talking about a company that announced a port of a game in the pipline a month before the "exclusive" one gets released!!

 

[soundwave05]

Viewtiful Joe sold quite well as a GameCube exclusive because it got a lot of attention for being one of the platform's big console exclusives during the holidays, despite a quirky 2D art style.

I think Capcom missed the boat on Okami. Yes, the PS2 has the bigger userbase, yes they should have supported the PS2 moreso earlier, however something like Okami should have been a Wii launch title.

Not many third parties, especailly in Japan, are taking advantage of the Wii launch window, a game like Okami would be getting much more exposure and hype if it was a Wii launch exclusive with the paint mechanics.

 

[charlequin]

Honestly, that is what's going to happen and it's not particularly funny.

Sure it is. See, all the little blue people are laughing! :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

 

[jesusraz]

VJ has always sold better on the GC, even the crappy Red Hot Rumble has done better than the PSP version it seems.

you're talking about a company that announced a port of a game in the pipline a month before the "exclusive" one gets released!!

Did you HAVE to remind me?! *rolls eyes*

 

[soundwave05]

Porting RE4 to the PS2 to recoup dev costs/maximize profit on such a large scale project had to be done.

To announce the PS2 version prior to the GC version's release, demoting Mikami, and then putting Clover Studio to work on nothing but PS2 projects were all poor, rash decisions though IMO.

Yes, Capcom should have supported the PS2 moreso, but you also need to look at each game as a case by case basis. Okami definitley should have been a Wii title right from day 1.

Capcom is terrible at managing franchises, also. Instead of building up an audience for Viewtiful Joe, they basically already drove that franchise into the ground by rushing out a sequel, then by spinning off the character into portable iterations.

Instead of doing all that, they should have just focused on making Viewtiful Joe 2 really great and took their time on that.

 

[elostyle]

Capcom has great developers but displayed rather poor management over the years in regards to development.

Dead rising is probably due to the lesson they learned from the RE4/VJ debacle.

 

[soundwave05]

Ditto for Onimusha and Devil May Cry, IMO they overused those franchises. It says a lot that Devil May Cry 4 may be out before Metal Gear Solid 4, and it seems like a new MGS game has been constantly in development for the past 10 years (so it's not like Kojima's team has been slacking).

Sometimes the best thing you can do is take your time on a sequel and let the audience hunger just build up. The irony of it all is the one game they really needed to make a sequel to -- Street Fighter II, they couldn't pull the trigger on until the 2D fighting craze had died down.

 

[Kiriku]

Ditto for Onimusha and Devil May Cry, IMO they overused those franchises. It says a lot that Devil May Cry 4 may be out before Metal Gear Solid 4, and it seems like a new MGS game has been constantly in development for the past 10 years (so it's not like Kojima's team has been slacking).

Sometimes the best thing you can do is take your time on a sequel and let the audience hunger just build up.

They OVERUSED the DMC franchise? What? They misused it, or rather...didn't use it at ALL. DMC was one of the best-selling PS2 games for Capcom in Japan IIRC, and they didn't really take advantage of that. We have seen no DMC spin-offs (unless you want to count a cellphone game almost noone has heard about), only thing close is Dante being guest star in a couple of games like SMT3 and VJ. At the same time, Onimusha had a Tactics spin-off, a fighting game and four entries in the main series for PS2. And Onimusha didn't even sell as well as the first DMC in the first place.

I don't think comparing DMC to a production of MGS magnitude to be fair, I mean...I don't think Konami are holding back to build hunger, but rather that they simply can't crank out more main MGS games than they already are.
I'm actually surprised we haven't seen more games based around DMC (at least back when the first one was released). And it's funny how you don't say Metal Gear is being overused...let's see...Metal Gear Solid 2, Metal Gear Solid 2: Substance, The Documents of Metal Gear Solid 2, Metal Gear Solid: Twin Snakes, Metal Gear Solid 3, Metal Gear Solid 3: Subsistence, Metal Gear Acid 1 and 2, Metal Gear: Digital Novel and soon Metal Gear Solid: Portable Ops and MGS4. So it's not like Konami are holding back to build up hunger or anything.

 

[MrPonx]

Nintendo should buy Capcom

The new Nintendo + Capcom's franchises will do very VERY well IMO

 

[apujanata]

OK, my misunderstanding. When most games were 'Adventure Games', if someone said, "Gaming IS adventure games. There will never be a day when gaming stops being adventure games" they'd be in denial. They couldn't imagine adventure games being replaced with something else. There are some who can't imagine gaming being different from what they grew up and/or are used to. Glad you're not one of them.

Your post remind me of my old favorites, Quest series. King's Quest, Police Quest, Hero's Quest, (and the Janitor of the Universe series).

I got my adventure games nostalgia when playing Phoenix Wright DS.

BTW, I am also one of few gamers who enjoy playing those non-games : Animal Crossing DS, Brain Academy. My wife and I are having competition in getting higher score for Brain Academy. So far, she has A-, while I only got B. My wife is one of those non-gamers. She does not like to play games, and she will only touch Tetris DS (on ocassion) and Brain Academy.

I have to admit that I enjoy playing AC DS more than I thought I could be.

I also agree that Capcom overused Onimusha and DMC. They should release one game every 2 or 3 years.

 

[soundwave05]

Devil May Cry came out when? Like 2002? It's 2006 and we're talking about Devil May Cry 4 already.

I'd say that's a bit much.

Dante in more spin-offs? Devil May Go-Kart, perhaps?

I wonder if perhaps the Viewtiful Joe franchise is simply done completely.

 

[Kiriku]

Devil May Cry came out when? Like 2002? It's 2006 and we're talking about Devil May Cry 4 already.

I'd say that's a bit much.

Dante in more spin-offs? Devil May Go-Kart, perhaps?

It came out in 2001. DMC4 won't be out until 2007, at the earliest. A new game every other year is hardly 'overused', especially not if we're talking about freakin' Capcom.
DMC was their best-selling PS2 game, and yet they didn't pimp it at all.
Meanwhile, they're milking the shit out of Megaman, Resident Evil and Street Fighter spin-offs and re-releases. They turned Onimusha into a freakin' Tactics game. I'm sure there are (or at least were) loads of ways to cash in on the DMC franchise as well. Anyway, it certainly wasn't overused. Mishandled is more like it, with the crappy second game.

 

[Meier]

Yet you totally failed to look at the fact that the Japanese market has been on a downward spiral for the last few years, way before the DS was even born.

Facts like this and others do not deter DS haters from bashing it. In their warped minds, it is causing games they like to sell less (even if the inverse is true) and will be the downfall of originality in gaming (even if the inverse is true).

 

[Shard]

It would have been the same high. From the start, I felt FFIII would have done extremely well - it's not like a port of FFIV advance, it's the first true FF remake from 2D to 3D. It's a huge difference from the other handheld FFs previous, and it doesn't have the same priority. There's more work that went into it, and thus more incentive to buy.

It also didn't hurt that this is the first time FInal Fantasy III has been sucessfully remade either.

 

[Mr. Pointy]

It came out in 2001. DMC4 won't be out until 2007, at the earliest. A new game every other year is hardly 'overused', especially not if we're talking about freakin' Capcom.
DMC was their best-selling PS2 game, and yet they didn't pimp it at all.

They made DMC2 then DMC3 in a generation. That's pimping a franchise.