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[Amir0x]

Fire Emblem has been on a slow decline for a long time now. The GBA boosted the series' popularity once more, but each entry after the first was less and less well-received.

What everyone is seeing is a decline of the market like it has been for a long time now in Japan + a huge new fanbase. The new guys aren't buying Brain Training instead of Okami. The new guys wouldn't have bought Okami at all.

Exactly though. There's no reason to celebrate because they're NOT buying the Fire Emblems and Okamis. They're buying horrendously designed titles instead, aimed at people who aren't you and I. As a gamer, that's all that matters to me. But, as long as the games I like keep getting sequels no use crying until then

 

[Deku]

(credit to BrodiemanTTR)

:lol

 

[ethelred]

Exactly though. There's no reason to celebrate because they're NOT buying the Fire Emblems and Okamis. They're buying horrendously designed titles instead, aimed at people who aren't you and I. As a gamer, that's all that matters to me. But, as long as the games I like keep getting sequels no use crying until then

If these people buying games leads to wider and broader cultural acceptance of gaming, that's a good thing. If their buying games means more money for publishers to take risks on new ideas that they'd otherwise be less likely to fund, that's a good thing. And if their buying games leads to more money to make games like the Fire Emblems and Okamis, that's a very good thing.

 

[AniHawk]

Exactly though. There's no reason to celebrate because they're NOT buying the Fire Emblems and Okamis. They're buying horrendously designed titles instead, aimed at people who aren't you and I. As a gamer, that's all that matters to me. But, as long as the games I like keep getting sequels no use crying until then

There's nothing about the Training titles or AC titles that make them horrendously designed. They're just not aimed towards you. Just like Metroid Prime wasn't really horrendously designed- it just wasn't aimed towards Metroid fans. It was supposed to be Half-Life or some crazy shit.

If you want to see horrendously designed, maybe you oughtta take a tour of Jak II again.

On a side note: I know a lot of newbies to the DS, at least in America, are looking to get Trauma Center, Phoenix Wright and Castlevaniads.

Spoiler

poor bastards

 

[Error]

you people are so narrow minded.

"games I like arent selling good, the industry is doomed, we are ****ed hur hur hur" seriously.

 

[AniHawk]

you people are so narrow minded.

"games I like arent selling good, the industry is doomed, we are ****ed hur hur hur" seriously.

Well, to be fair, those people would be Nintendo fans 2-9 years ago.

 

[fresquito]

Exactly though. There's no reason to celebrate because they're NOT buying the Fire Emblems and Okamis. They're buying horrendously designed titles instead, aimed at people who aren't you and I. As a gamer, that's all that matters to me. But, as long as the games I like keep getting sequels no use crying until then

Sorry to say, I'm a gamer and I enjoy these new kind of games. Besides, I don't see how games like Brain Training or Animal Crossing are "horrendously designed", actually I think all the opposite.

Can I be a gamer and enjoy Fire Emblem and Animal Crossing all alike please?

 

[Amir0x]

If these people buying games leads to wider and broader cultural acceptance of gaming, that's a good thing. If their buying games means more money for publishers to take risks on new ideas that they'd otherwise be less likely to fund, that's a good thing. And if their buying games leads to more money to make games like the Fire Emblems and Okamis, that's a very good thing.

This is something that keeps being said 'if it brings in new gamers, then it's good for US! If devs can take more risks thanks to it, why not!"

It's not bringing in new gamers. It's bringing in people who play brain training. And then, on the side, they may buy Mario Bros (tee hee) and a fifty billionth Pokemon and Final Fantasy.

The money made from that is not going to be used to take risks. Why the hell would any company go 'oh yeah I just made a 500% profit on a game that cost me 100,000 to make. NOW let me risk it all by making an elaborate, 20million dollar production. It can't go wrong!" What kind of idiot business would that be?

This is my take. Until the games that are legitimately good start making money, that's why I personally see no reason to celebrate even though I like DS more than PSP. I used to participate in sales threads a lot because I thought, wow, these two competing handhelds are so great they offer these unique things and it's gonna benefit all the games I love. And I see, so far (it's early), the precise opposite effect.

 

[capslock]

There seems to be an assumption here that all the new gamers that Brain Training and Nintendogs have brought in will never buy traditional games like FF3. It's quite possible that a signficant chunk of those people lining up for Final Fantasy 3 tried gaming (or non-gaming) for the first time with Brain Training or Nintendogs.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

I really like the Portable DS... I may not even buy another console in a few years since I'm getting older and may have no time but during long trips, and short breaks here and there

FF3 sold very well and its not a none game so... meh

 

[Deku]

I really like the Portable DS... I may not even buy another console in a few years since I'm getting older and may have no time but during long trips, and short breaks here and thereh

Then the industry is doomed. You contribute nothing and will not help EA or NAMCO make risky games. The past is always the right path to take for the future.[/hyperbole]

 

[Tabris]

This is my take. Until the games that are legitimately good start making money, that's why I personally see no reason to celebrate even though I like DS more than PSP. I used to participate in sales threads a lot because I thought, wow, these two competing handhelds are so great they offer these unique things and it's gonna benefit all the games I love. And I see, so far (it's early), the precise opposite effect.

Exactly. All the sales of games I enjoy are down from their previous iterations by a whole lot since the DS generation (i.e. Valkyrie Profile 2 vs Valkyrie Profile).

For ethered and cvxfreak and all the others, can you name a single non-DS game that has done even or better than it's previous iteration during the DS generation?

I mean just look to the GBA too. Everything except the DS is down.

 

[fresquito]

It's not bringing in new gamers. It's bringing in people who play brain training. And then, on the side, they may buy Mario Bros (tee hee) and a fifty billionth Pokemon and Final Fantasy.

Wow, dude, you have it completely wrong. Someone that buys a new console and plays some game available for it, IS a gamer.

It's like saying that half the population of the Ps2, who bought the console to have their yearly Madden fix, and on the side, the may have bought GTA and Need for Speed, aren't gamers.

The hyperbole indeed.

edit:

Exactly. All the sales of games I enjoy are down from their previous iterations by a whole lot since the DS generation (i.e. Valkyrie Profile 2 vs Valkyrie Profile).

For ethered and cvxfreak and all the others, can you name a single non-DS game that has done even or better than it's previous iteration during the DS generation?

I mean just look to the GBA too. Everything except the DS is down.

That's quite tricky question, since we are at the end of a console cycle and the two new systems (PSP and 360) aren't selling software. It's not like no new iteration is working, it's more like nothing is working on them.

 

[Hero]

Exactly. All the sales of games I enjoy are down from their previous iterations by a whole lot since the DS generation (i.e. Valkyrie Profile 2 vs Valkyrie Profile).

Maybe it's because people are tired of getting sequel after sequel?

I mean, jesus, if you want to put it like that, almost all games have sold less after each previous iteration. Name a series where the sales increased with every sequel. You'd be hard pressed to.

And this post of your's is just completely nullified by the fact that New Super Mario Bros. is looking to surpass all of its predecessors.

 

[Nicktals]

This is something that keeps being said 'if it brings in new gamers, then it's good for US! If devs can take more risks thanks to it, why not!"

It's not bringing in new gamers. It's bringing in people who play brain training. And then, on the side, they may buy Mario Bros (tee hee) and a fifty billionth Pokemon and Final Fantasy.

The money made from that is not going to be used to take risks. Why the hell would any company go 'oh yeah I just made a 500% profit on a game that cost me 100,000 to make. NOW let me risk it all by making an elaborate, 20million dollar production. It can't go wrong!" What kind of idiot business would that be?

This is my take. Until the games that are legitimately good start making money, that's why I personally see no reason to celebrate even though I like DS more than PSP. I used to participate in sales threads a lot because I thought, wow, these two competing handhelds are so great they offer these unique things and it's gonna benefit all the games I love. And I see, so far (it's early), the precise opposite effect.

Won't things that genuinely appeal to the largest audience make money? Just because they don't appeal to hardcore gamers doesn't mean they aren't good. BT and BT2 are not poorly designed. They just aren't really games. And they found an audience. How is that bad? I doubt it's all hardcore gamers pushing these games to astronomical sales numbers. It's expanding. I mean, I understand why you'd be a little upset, the sales charts no longer reflect good games. They reflect what people want.



Wait....

All sales charts have ever done is reflect what people want. I don't get it.

Maybe what most people want hasn't really been offered before.


AND

Hell, quality JP titles are actually doing better in the NA market than in JP due to the DS craze. Games like Kingdom Hearts 2 and Shadow of the Colossus have sold more in NA.

295 734 134 / 127 417 244 = 2.32098988

US Population/Japan Population= 2.32098988

Shouldn't universal games such as KH2 and SotC sell more in the US? These are made in Japan, but they certainly would be labeled as universal games. And, they're quality titles.


EDIT: Population numbers taken from google.

 

[BorkBork]

For ethered and cvxfreak and all the others, can you name a single non-DS game that has done even or better than it's previous iteration during the DS generation?

You're blaming this on the DS? Software sales in Japan were declining, for all platforms, way before the DS was launched.

 

[Error]

and I dont get why people here blame the japanese market for lack of 'good' taste.

SMT games sell a ****load better in japan than here and those are great games take a look at DQ8 it also sold a lot more in japan than here. I seriously dont get the "japan has no taste" argument from you people.

and I dont know why tabris keeps bringing VP that's a niche title through and through of course it isnt going to sell a lot and even then it sold more in japan than here.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

Then the industry is doomed. You contribute nothing and will not help EA or NAMCO make risky games. The past is always the right path to take for the future.[/hyperbole]

never intended to buy from Namco and EA anyway

well maybe ACE COMBAT Wii and maybe TIGER WOODS Wii

 

[ethelred]

Exactly. All the sales of games I enjoy are down from their previous iterations by a whole lot since the DS generation (i.e. Valkyrie Profile 2 vs Valkyrie Profile).

For ethered and cvxfreak and all the others, can you name a single non-DS game that has done even or better than it's previous iteration during the DS generation?

I mean just look to the GBA too. Everything except the DS is down.

Rogue Galaxy sold more than Dark Cloud 2. Shadow of the Colossus sold more than ICO. Kingdom Hearts II has outsold Kingdom Hearts. Romancing SaGa outsold Unlimited Saga, and Tales of the Abyss has sold even with Rebirth. There are plenty of other specific examples.

But beyond that, your argument is invalid on its face because PS2 software was in most cases selling less than PSX software before the DS was created or even thought up. Meanwhile, the DS has actually managed to turn that tide, as quite a few "real games" on the DS are selling even with or better than their previous iterations on other consoles... which may be evidence to suggest that some of the expansion is working for these games.

oh and FE PoR sold more in japan than here too.

Actually, all three Fire Emblems released in the US have outsold their Japanese versions.

 

[Tabris]

Maybe it's because people are tired of getting sequel after sequel?

I mean, jesus, if you want to put it like that, almost all games have sold less after each previous iteration. Name a series where the sales increased with every sequel. You'd be hard pressed to.

And this post of your's is just completely nullified by the fact that New Super Mario Bros. is looking to surpass all of its predecessors.

That's a DS game. Did you not read my post?

 

[Deku]

never intended to buy from Namco and EA anyway

well maybe ACE COMBAT Wii and maybe TIGER WOODS Wii

What's NAMCO to do when they can't make Pacmans, Ridge Racers and Tales games anymore? Those were the innovative risky days of the golden age!

I beg you, have a heart man.

 

[Amir0x]

Won't things that genuinely appeal to the largest audience make money? Just because they don't appeal to hardcore gamers doesn't mean they aren't good. BT and BT2 are not poorly designed. They just aren't really games. And they found an audience. How is that bad? I doubt it's all hardcore gamers pushing these games to astronomical sales numbers. It's expanding. I mean, I understand why you'd be a little upset, the sales charts no longer reflect good games. They reflect what people want.

Wait....

All sales charts have ever done is reflect what people want. I don't get it.

I know they reflect what people want. I'm not blaming businesses for following where the money is. It's just not something I'm going to celebrate, because the way it impacts my hobby is from what I can see not benefiting me at all. And so, why would I care? I don't mean to post in this thread when there's numbers I don't care about, I only meant to highlight the position Tabris is taking in relation to my point of view.

I can see why, if you liked those things I consider crap, you'd be excited. But for me, it's the worst change the industry has had for a long while.

 

[Joe Molotov]

Exactly. All the sales of games I enjoy are down from their previous iterations by a whole lot since the DS generation (i.e. Valkyrie Profile 2 vs Valkyrie Profile).

For ethered and cvxfreak and all the others, can you name a single non-DS game that has done even or better than it's previous iteration during the DS generation?

I mean just look to the GBA too. Everything except the DS is down.

Yeah well, all my favorite Nintendo and Sega franchises haven't sold as well since the PS2 came out. Boo hoo hoo.

 

[Tabris]

and I dont know why tabris keeps bringing VP that's a niche title through and through of course it isnt going to sell a lot and even then it sold more in japan than here.

23 Valkyrie Profile Enix PS RPG 323,328

 

[Error]

23 Valkyrie Profile Enix PS RPG 323,328

what's that, japanese sales?

in japan it sold like 800k iirc.

or is that the sequel?

 

[Hero]

That's a DS game. Did you not read my post?

Unfortunately I do read your posts. Also, unfortunately, you simply dismiss reality because it doesn't cater to your needs and wants. Cry some more about it.

 

[Tabris]

what's that, japanese sales?

in japan it sold like 800k iirc.

or is that the sequel?

Nope, it just sold 330k. You're thinking Star Ocean 2 maybe?

 

[marc^o^]

Long live the (non) games that elevate gaming out of the ghetto. When all our moms and dads have a DS, gamers won't be seen as nerds anymore.

 

[cvxfreak]

For ethered and cvxfreak and all the others, can you name a single non-DS game that has done even or better than it's previous iteration during the DS generation?

Kingdom Hearts II

 

[ethelred]

23 Valkyrie Profile Enix PS RPG 323,328

Yeah, and?

The original was a groundbreaking, totally original new franchise, and people bought it in droves -- and many considered a complete experience.

Maybe they weren't interested in a sequel? Maybe they want more groundbreaking, totally original new franchises?

Or maybe you're just witnessing what has predominantly been an across-the-board drop in sales from the last generation the current one, something that had been occuring well before the DS was even introduced -- an unfortunate flaw in your theory which you have so far ignored, just as you ignored the questions I posed to you earlier.

sure, they owned the top 10 chart, but how much were they selling? Can you point to an appreciable drop in the actual sales of these games as a result of the "non-games?"

Or is it that these games are selling as well now as they were a year ago only now there are additional games selling just as well (IE, an expansion of the market, not a deterioration or groundshift)?

Or is it that some of these games are selling even better than they would have a year ago (FF3 outselling in one week the LTDs of every Square Enix game but one sort of lends credence to this)?

Kingdom Hearts II

I beat you.

 

[Error]

Nope, it just sold 330k. You're thinking Star Ocean 2 maybe?

so... what's your point? I think the sequel did numbers are like that too.

 

[Amir0x]

Long live the (non) games that elevate gaming out of the ghetto. When all our moms and dads have a DS, gamers won't be seen as nerds anymore.

as an aside, i hope that's a joke... mainly because i sure as hell know that moms and dads enjoying the things i do has NEVER made something not nerdy :lol

that applies to anything, across the board

 

[ethelred]

as an aside, i hope that's a joke... mainly because i sure as hell know that moms and dads enjoying the things i do has NEVER made something not nerdy :lol

that applies to anything, across the board

Moms and dads like these nerdy things like "movies" and "television" and "books." They're broad categories; filmakers and authors can create things within those media that span a wide variety of genres and demographics. The ability to make financially successful shit like Titanic doesn't actually harm the ability of directors to make something that I enjoy.

Why not games? Broader cultural acceptance WOULD be a good thing. More money in the industry, lower prices for hardware, less pressure to pass legislation which harms the industry and the ability for publishers to make games, a host of other things.

Moms and dads would be liking things within the particular medium that I wouldn't be playing and that you wouldn't be playing, but them being a part of the medium itself would hardly be a bad thing.

right right, so another million copies of 'my readers digest DS' could be sold - why would i care? games wouldn't stop being nerdy then

Sure they'd stop being considered nerdy. They're considered nerdy because they appeal to a pretty narrow part of the population, so most people just don't understand gaming as a medium for entertainment at all.

And I dunno, you might care for the reasons I listed out in the post you quoted.

At the very worst, it's a wash for people like you and me -- maybe something that doesn't directly benefit us and the games we like, but certainly something that doesn't actually hurt us or the ability of publishers to make those games that we like. So if you don't get excited, fine, but why get personally antagonistic about it? At the worst, ambivalence seems an appropriate response.

 

[Amir0x]

Moms and dads like these nerdy things like "movies" and "television" and "books." Why not games? Broader cultural acceptance WOULD be a good thing. More money in the industry, lower prices for hardware, less pressure to pass legislation which harms the industry and the ability for publishers to make games, a host of other things.

Moms and dads would be liking things within the particular medium that I wouldn't be playing and that you wouldn't be playing, but them being a part of the medium itself would hardly be a bad thing.

right right, so another million copies of 'my readers digest DS' could be sold - why would i care? games wouldn't stop being nerdy then

 

[Error]

btw these are VP:S numbers as of last week of July 'PS2 Valkyrie Profile Silmeria 2 - 358,073'

it sold more than VP1 so... I dont get your point tabris unless I misunderstood you.

 

[cvxfreak]

I beat you.

Famicom Mini Super Mario Brothers

 

[Kurosaki Ichigo]

(whistles....VP PSX....660k)


Believe what the ascii bear says!!!

 

[cvxfreak]

Monster Hunter Portable
Monster Hunter 2

 

[marc^o^]

as an aside, i hope that's a joke... mainly because i sure as hell know that moms and dads enjoying the things i do has NEVER made something not nerdy :lol

that applies to anything, across the board

That reminds me of a headline 1up came up with last year: "PSP, because even your mom has an ipod".

I find it cool that mine enjoys Wario Ware or Super Mario mini games.

 

[Nicktals]

I know they reflect what people want. I'm not blaming businesses for following where the money is. It's just not something I'm going to celebrate, because the way it impacts my hobby is from what I can see not benefiting me at all. And so, why would I care? I don't mean to post in this thread when there's numbers I don't care about, I only meant to highlight the position Tabris is taking in relation to my point of view.

I can see why, if you liked those things I consider crap, you'd be excited. But for me, it's the worst change the industry has had for a long while.

Exactly. I really don't think it's negatively effecting your hobby, while it's simultaneously dismissing this stigma which plagues gamers.

And yes, I do like some non-games. Certainly not all. Although I did just buy BT2 (which i partically don't care for) because I got asked by 3 family members if they could play it.

as an aside, i hope that's a joke... mainly because i sure as hell know that moms and dads enjoying the things i do has NEVER made something not nerdy :lol

that applies to anything, across the board

Among the hardcore/"hip"...Not the media...Which I would think carries more weight...Maybe not. The DS in Japan is a cultural phenomenon, maybe comparable to the iPod. Nobody views the iPod as nerdy, and I don't think many people in Japan view the DS as nerdy.

 

[ethelred]

And yes, I do like some non-games. Certainly not all. Although I did just buy BT2 (which i partically don't care for) because I got asked by 3 family members if they could play it.

I still say (from the perspective of someone who hasn't bought a single one of the "non-games," and nor do I have any plans to do so) that a portable DS game which utilizes the microphone and touch screen to train English-speaking players in kana/kanji would be killer awesome.



Edit: Also, to Tabris. Believe it or not, I really do wish the PSP and much of its software was performing better. I think the DS is doing this well because of the competition the PSP provided, and I think better and sustained competition would be hugely beneficial to both systems, and to all of us gamers in the long run. And also, because despite your binary interpretation in which if a person likes a Nintendo system, they must loathe Sony and want Sony systems to fail... I like the hardware. And I want more games for the hardware that I like, and that'll (mostly) only happen if it sees continued competitive success.

So I wish it was happening. But it's not, and I guess that's a symptom of the same culture that's caused pretty much every console generation in Japan to have one overwhelming market leader (I still REALLY hope this changes with PS3/Wii despite the historical evidence to suggest it won't). But I can't change that, so there's no use constantly whining about it.

 

[AniHawk]

For ethered and cvxfreak and all the others, can you name a single non-DS game that has done even or better than it's previous iteration during the DS generation?

Everything else is nearing the end of the generation. ****ing duh it's gonna be down.

 

[Mike Works]

i guess it's a matter of care. if 90% of all the games with 'mass appeal' are atrocious pieces of shit, as they tend to be here, then the point of celebrating is a little bit cut off at the legs. If the genuinely good games like the Fire Emblems, like the Okamis sold 3 million then the celebration would be a bit more entertaining.

but if you like those hilariously terrible nongames, aside from things named Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest and Pokemon, then it'll be something worth celebrating. it's all perspective, i suppose.

What if the mass selling of these allegedly terrible nongames increases the userbase, which in turn increases develop interest, which in turn improves the chances of a unique and innovative piece of software getting created and released for the system?

edit: just now reading this last page, i see this has already been addressed, and you're still being stupid. i'm going to go find a stack of paper so I can bring it back to my desk, sit down, and then throw the papers up in the air while rolling my eyes at disgust.

 

[AniHawk]

No, Mike. That's bad.

 

[BrodiemanTTR]

Ingenious. :lol

 

[linsivvi]

Really only CapCom seems to miss DS at the moment... oh, i forgot.. the have Gyakuten Saiban 4 (Phoenix Wright) in development

That is until the new Rockman EXE comes out.

 

[Mar]

Everything I read in the media is starting to discuss the same things. They are all starting to complain that there's too much money involved with games. Developers can't take risks because of the money involved. Just keep making the same old stuff, the same formula, people will buy it. Churn it out. Sequels, better graphics.

Does that sound familiar? Hollywood movies anyone? Trash?

God forbid Nintendo doing something different and finding a market for it.

 

[linsivvi]

PSP, PS2, Gamecube, or XBox. Anything.

The sales chart lacks anything from any other platform.

That means games like Okami, Samurai Warriors 2, Valkyrie Profile 2, Final Fantasy 12, Yakuza, Baten Kaitos 2, etc, etc aren't on the list at all and won't ever have "legs", but 4 training games, 2 sim games and 4 other DS games are and constantly sell.

So with that, except to say "Wow, DS is awesome! We love the DS", what's the point of sale threads anymore when it's just going to be the DS every time?

Hell, quality JP titles are actually doing better in the NA market than in JP due to the DS craze. Games like Kingdom Hearts 2 and Shadow of the Colossus have sold more in NA.

Yet you totally failed to look at the fact that the Japanese market has been on a downward spiral for the last few years, way before the DS was even born. The rising cost of development and the ever shrinking market has been driving companies out of businesses and/or forced to merge with their competitors. The fact that anything can sell so consistently in Japan is a cause worth celebrating. The NA market has long since eclipsed the Japan market too.

What Nintendo is doing is to lead the way and show it to others that they are expand their markets by catering to the other demographics. What's wrong with that? This is what the video game industry should take their next steps. The top 10 box office and music charts are almost always filled with craps. The indie/underground stuff aren't going away anytime soon.

 

[MrPing1000]

It's gonna run wild brother!

 

[elostyle]

EDIT: my connection sux