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[Pureauthor]

I'm sorry. I meant for reviews.

Yes, ethelred means reviews.

Sega has serious support on the Wii? Last I checked it was Sonic lulz, Sonic lols and NiGHTS. All their major franchises and emerging new IPs are on PS3 and Xbox360!

Hey, watch it buddy! Sonic is Sega's flagship franchise and don't you forget it!

Edit:

Spoiler

Typing that sentence caused me actual pain.

 

[cws]

Sega has serious support on the Wii? Last I checked it was Sonic lulz, Sonic lols and NiGHTS. All their major franchises and emerging new IPs are on PS3 and Xbox360!

wii gets shiren3 and this is awesome...but yeah u r right..

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Speaking sepcifically about Nights, I think Sega should not expect much from this title. I remember the first Nights to be hyped because it was one of the first 3D free roaming games on consoles and even had a gamepad designed for it. If it did sell (I don't know how much it did) it would be because of that. Now it has nothing going for it and it seems the gaming media will give it poor reviews. Sega shouldn't be expecting anything out of this. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if REUC did a million copies, its a perfect match for the Wii.

Your understanding of the facts of the matter about the original NiGHTS are very nearly wholly incorrect.

The game sold quite well, was actually one of the best selling Saturn games worldwide, one of the best selling games of 1996 on any platform, and technically wasn't a 3D free roaming game, nor was it advertised as such. It also received a critical lashing, relatively speaking.

SEGA's expectations for NiGHTS far exceed 30k, I can tell you that much. I doubt they're expecting 500k or anything in Japan, but...yeah, 30k would be a five alarm red-fucking-alert at SEGA HQ.

ducky seems to have missed the SEGA Bass Fishing announcement. SEGA's bringing back the true SEGA only on Wii, man!

 

[duckroll]

wii gets shiren3 and this is awesome...but yeah u r right..

So the only "serious support" is from Chunsoft and is just published by Sega? Yeah, I thought so!

 

[noonche]

I don't see why Wii's situation is so unexpected... Nintendo said they where going after the demographic that doesn't play traditional games. They nailed it. Why are people surprised that traditional games aren't selling well on Wii?

 

[schuelma]

Sega has serious support on the Wii? Last I checked it was Sonic lulz, Sonic lols and NiGHTS. All their major franchises and emerging new IPs are on PS3 and Xbox360!

You forgot a certain dancing monkey!!

 

[Magicpaint]

Sega has serious support on the Wii? Last I checked it was Sonic lulz, Sonic lols and NiGHTS. All their major franchises and emerging new IPs are on PS3 and Xbox360!

Miburi and Teburi, lolz.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

You really think 300K would be disappointing for UC?

I'm looking at PS2 and not seeing a RE get past 450K, much less a not main series light gun entry.

I didn't phrase that exactly right. 300k would probably make Capcom happy, but I think it would be about the least that would. UC is a pretty big-budget affair, compared to other third party offerings.

 

[duckroll]

UC is a pretty big-budget affair...

You sure about that....?

...compared to other third party offerings.

Oh.

 

[schuelma]

I didn't phrase that exactly right. 300k would probably make Capcom happy, but I think it would be about the least that would. UC is a pretty big-budget affair, compared to other third party offerings.

Ahh ok. I still think that might be a bit high- I don't remember the exact number, but Capcom's initial published expectation for RE:UC was something like 600K world wide. So at least a while ago they weren't expecting that much.

 

[Pureauthor]

I played what I consider one of the best DotA games I ever had the pleasure of experiencing.

And the MC thread tonight is being particularly entertaining.

I'm feeling pretty happy right now. If only I didn't have a rather nasty neck-ache, things would be pretty fine.

On-topic: I think 300K would be a fine number for RE:UC, myself.

STUPID 'B' KEY!

 

[Version 3.0]

Remember when it looked like a raging success would be the future for the Wii and some said, "Hey, stop a minute! We don't know that it'll last," but the response was "Once trends are established, they're basically set..."? Remember that?

I'm not seeing a reversal of trends here...are you? I'm looking at:

1. Wii
2. PS3
3. 360

And have been since the Wii launch, every single week. People said the Wii will be #1. Now you're condemning them for overestimating by how much? I'd suggest you wait a little longer than 1 month of 'only' 2-to-1 sales, so you don't sound too hypocritical. You might want to actually wait for at least 1 week of it not in the #1 spot. Maybe take a look at some historical data; dips can and do happen. They don't usually indicate a trend is over, or the impending death of the market leader.

 

[Phife Dawg]

Only because last time Scamco released the Wii version months after the PS2 version! This time they released it day-and-date... you'd think that would help, but instead people are now arguing that this explains the Wii version's atrocious performance! Amazing!

Yeah... it was a non-minigame collection on the Wii. Not a great idea. I agree.

Actually, you know what? This isn't true!

Going by all the sales we have available in Dalthien's thread, the Wii actually lags behind the PS3 in average third party sales. Do you know how fucking bad they have to be to accomplish that feat given how much of an upward pull DQS is exerting? The Wii third party median is also worse than the PS3's.

Wow.

Well yeah you could use arguments but I guess minigames! suffices. Don't forget WiiFit! It's probably just baiting, who knows.

Using Moor-Angol's site it's actually true.

Re: 3rd parties on Wii.

Let's see how exclusive 3rd party Wii games do this holiday (Umbrella Chronicles I'm looking at you!) before completely writing off the market as a mini game only zone.

That said, I agree that to date the results for 3rd parties are not all that impressive.

UC's a good one. I'm putting a lot on NiGHTS' sales.

Those two are bound to bomb imo.

 

[schuelma]

I'm not seeing a reversal of trends here...are you? I'm looking at:

1. Wii
2. PS3
3. 360

And have been since the Wii launch, every single week. People said the Wii will be #1. Now you're condemning them for overestimating by how much? I'd suggest you wait a little longer than 1 month of 'only' 2-to-1 sales, so you don't sound too hypocritical. You might want to actually wait for at least 1 week of it not in the #1 spot. Maybe take a look at some historical data; dips can and do happen. They don't usually indicate a trend is over, or the impending death of the market leader.

I believe ethelred is talking about the state of 3rd party software on the Wii and how a trend seems to be appearing.

 

[Version 3.0]

I don't see why Wii's situation is so unexpected... Nintendo said they where going after the demographic that doesn't play traditional games. They nailed it. Why are people surprised that traditional games aren't selling well on Wii?

They were also going after that market. They never claimed to be abandoning traditional gaming, and they haven't...that doesn't apply to 3rd parties, though.

 

[Version 3.0]

I believe ethelred is talking about the state of 3rd party software on the Wii and how a trend seems to be appearing.

Ah, well, that's a very different trend, and I don't recall it being much different than it is now, on the support or sales ends.

 

[Laguna]

Capcom expectations (some months ago)

worldwide:
RE4Wii - 450k
RE:UC - 620k


So, it´s hard to believe that 300k in Japan alone wouldn´t be seen as big success especially for a spin-off and "Lightgun-shooter". Even 200k could please Capcoms expectations.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

You sure about that....?



Oh.

Yeah. Basically, I think Capcom is on the short list of third parties that are making any kind of serious investment in a Wii project, and if it bites them in the ass, I expect them to react accordingly. PSP-style, one might say.

 

[schuelma]

Capcom expectations (some months ago)

worldwide:
RE4Wii - 450k
RE:UC - 620k


So, it´s hard to believe that 300k in Japan alone wouldn´t be seen as big success especially for a spin-off and "Lightgun-shooter". Even 200k could please Capcoms expectations.

Thanks for that.

Now, because of RE4's overwhelming success, I bet they are now expecting more out of Umbrella, but I still think 300K would be a huge success to Capcom in Japan.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

May I ask what was expected of the Wii with these 3rd party sales? From everything I can see in these threads and from the data, Wii sales for 3rd party titles are increasing YOY even with PS2 versions out. This tells me that people are slowly shifting to the Wii from the PS2. Is the complaint that it's not as fast as it should be? I'm not getting this here.

 

[schuelma]

Yeah. Basically, I think Capcom is on the short list of third parties that are making any kind of serious investment in a Wii project, and if it bites them in the ass, I expect them to react accordingly. PSP-style, one might say.

Well, RE4 is probably going to double their expectations world wide so they're 1 for 1 so far.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

May I ask what was expected of the Wii with these 3rd party sales? From everything I can see in these threads and from the data, Wii sales for 3rd party titles are increasing YOY even with PS2 versions out. This tells me that people are slowly shifting to the Wii from the PS2. Is the complaint that it's not as fast as it should be? I'm not getting this here.

My basic argument is that DBZ's opening day numbers are disappointing. A year down the line, with the install base being quite a bit larger than it was, releasing day and date with the PS2 version, and the PS2 being just plain another year older, I feel that marginally outselling the last version and being dramatically outsold by the PS2 version is not something to be happy about.

 

[duckroll]

Yeah. Basically, I think Capcom is on the short list of third parties that are making any kind of serious investment in a Wii project, and if it bites them in the ass, I expect them to react accordingly. PSP-style, one might say.

Ouch, you're hitting below the belt now.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Well, RE4 is probably going to double their expectations world wide so they're 1 for 1 so far.

Yeah, and Zack and Wiki will make it 1 for 2, so UC is the swing vote! :O

 

[schuelma]

Yeah, and Zack and Wiki will make it 1 for 2, so UC is the swing vote! :O

I would love to see Capcom's internal expectations for ZaW. I'm pretty sure the director of the game said at one point they didn't think it was going to sell :lol :lol

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

My basic argument is that DBZ's opening day numbers are disappointing. A year down the line, with the install base being quite a bit larger than it was, releasing day and date with the PS2 version, and the PS2 being just plain another year older, I feel that marginally outselling the last version and being dramatically outsold by the PS2 version is not something to be happy about.

I don't see it that way. If I were a developer I would be happy that i'm able to transfer resources from one console to another. From the looks of it, the game on both systems will trend higher than just the PS2 version did, so again, I don't see the problem. If the PS2 numbers drop and the Wii didn't pick up the slack on the contrary, i'd be wary, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

 

[Laguna]

This thread is pretty telling. It just needs a few weeks of mediocre Nintendo system/software sales (I know that PkmMD2 is nearing 1million but "that doesn´t count") and you see people once again declairing Nintendo systems as doomed.

 

[noonche]

They were also going after that market. They never claimed to be abandoning traditional gaming, and they haven't...that doesn't apply to 3rd parties, though.

Wii was successful largely because of Wii Sports and Wii Play. They have attracted a demographic that is largely non-traditional and casual. I see no reason to expect traditional, hardcore games to be successful on the Wii at this point.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

This thread is pretty telling. It just needs a few weeks of mediocre Nintendo system/software sales (I know that PkmMD2 is nearing 1million but "that doesn´t count") and you see people once again declairing Nintendo systems as doomed.

To be fair, Sales age generally tends to think everyone is doomed.

 

[schuelma]

This thread is pretty telling. It just needs a few weeks of mediocre Nintendo system/software sales (I know that PkmMD2 is nearing 1million but "that doesn´t count") and you see people once again declairing Nintendo systems as doomed.

I think those saying 3rd party games aren't selling well on Wii do have a point. Aside from DQ Swords there really hasn't been many success stories. Like I said, let's see what happens after the Holiday's.

 

[Jokeropia]

Wii was successful largely because of Wii Sports and Wii Play. They have attracted a demographic that is largely non-traditional and casual. I see no reason to expect traditional, hardcore games to be successful on the Wii at this point.

The PS2 had zero games that had sold as well as Wii Sports, Wii Play and Mario Party at this point. The top PS2 games were about the same level as Zelda, Super Paper Mario and DQ:S actually.

 

[charlequin]

Why are people surprised that traditional games aren't selling well on Wii?

Because "people" are invested in the success of the Wii vindicating their decision to support Nintendo platforms.

 

[schuelma]

One hypothesis on Wii 3rd party sales- It seems to me that its possible that Galaxy and Brawl might actually help 3rd party sales in the long run by getting a lot of traditional gamers that haven't jumped in yet to own a Wii, i.e, people buying a Wii for Brawl might be more likely to buy "traditional" games than those who have been buying a Wii for Wii Sports all year.

 

[Mithos Yggdrasill]

First Day Sales:

Dragon Ball Z Sparking! METEOR (PS2) : about 110k

Dragon Ball Z Sparking! METEOR (Wii) : about 30k

Powerful Pro Major League 2 (PS2, Wii) : about 25k

Gundam Battle Chronicle (PSP) : about 50k

ARCHAIC SEALED HEAT (ASH) (DS) : about 40k



Source : http://ameblo.jp/sinobi/

Not bad for ASH and Gundam.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

One hypothesis on Wii 3rd party sales- It seems to me that its possible that Galaxy and Brawl might actually help 3rd party sales in the long run by getting a lot of traditional gamers that haven't jumped in yet to own a Wii, i.e, people buying a Wii for Brawl might be more likely to buy "traditional" games than those who have been buying a Wii for Wii Sports all year.

I think that's the hope, at least. It's troubling to think the Wii has sold so many consoles without having a terribly large "traditional gamer" base, but those two should at least bring some of the gamer contingent to the Wii. The next question will be, will these gamers that are attracted be the guys that supported the GC, or will Nintendo soak up some of the PS2 base?

 

[schuelma]

I think that's the hope, at least. It's troubling to think the Wii has sold so many consoles without having a terribly large "traditional gamer" base, but those two should at least bring some of the gamer contingent to the Wii. The next question will be, will these gamers that are attracted be the guys that supported the GC, or will Nintendo soak up some of the PS2 base?

Yup, exactly. I'm sure to a large extent it will be GC owners, but I would think there will be some PS2 owners jumping in since PS3 isn't looking too attractive this holiday.

 

[charlequin]

I think that's the hope, at least. It's troubling to think the Wii has sold so many consoles without having a terribly large "traditional gamer" base, but those two should at least bring some of the gamer contingent to the Wii. The next question will be, will these gamers that are attracted be the guys that supported the GC, or will Nintendo soak up some of the PS2 base?

Yeah. It's worth noting that sufficiently successful consoles are always going to trend towards the middle to some degree -- the 360 is going to start losing its monster attach rate as it gets cheaper, and presumably Wii will by default pick up more hardcore gamers over time.

I think it's inevitable that Wii will pick up some of the PS2 base, but how much is totally in question. The DS is unambiguously the true successor to the PS2 at the moment and I think the real question is how many DS-only owners will actually feel the need to get a home console.

 

[schuelma]

Yeah. It's worth noting that sufficiently successful consoles are always going to trend towards the middle to some degree -- the 360 is going to start losing its monster attach rate as it gets cheaper, and presumably Wii will by default pick up more hardcore gamers over time.

I think it's inevitable that Wii will pick up some of the PS2 base, but how much is totally in question. The DS is unambiguously the true successor to the PS2 at the moment and I think the real question is how many DS-only owners will actually feel the need to get a home console.

That's why it amazes me that Nintendo hasn't provided more legit DS to Wii connectivity yet.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Yeah. It's worth noting that sufficiently successful consoles are always going to trend towards the middle to some degree -- the 360 is going to start losing its monster attach rate as it gets cheaper, and presumably Wii will by default pick up more hardcore gamers over time.

I think it's inevitable that Wii will pick up some of the PS2 base, but how much is totally in question. The DS is unambiguously the true successor to the PS2 at the moment and I think the real question is how many DS-only owners will actually feel the need to get a home console.

Yes, insofar as Japan is concerned, the DS is the console of choice, replacing the PS2. It's a weird thing to wrap one's head around, but there it is.

 

[noonche]

The PS2 had zero games that had sold as well as Wii Sports, Wii Play and Mario Party at this point. The top PS2 games were about the same level as Zelda, Super Paper Mario and DQ:S actually.

I think the issue is that not many games have sold at that level on Wii.

Within 2000 PS2 saw the following, all selling over 250k. According to Moor Angol's site.

Onimusha: Warlords
Ridge Racer V
Gekikuukan Pro Yakyuu
World Soccer Winning Eleven 5
Tekken Tag Tournament
Mobile Suit Gundam: Journey to Jaburo
Kessen
The Bouncer
Victorious Boxers
Dead or Alive 2
Dynasty Warriors 2
Jikkyou Powerful Pro Yakyuu 7
FIFA Soccer World Championship
Resident Evil Code: Veronica X

For Wii I see:

Wii Sports
Wii Play
Mario Party 8
The Legend of Zelda: The Twilight Princess
Super Paper Mario
Wario Ware: Smooth Moves
Dragon Quest Swords: The Masked Queen and the Tower of Mirrors
Pokemon Battle Revolution

That's 14 to 8 by my count.

 

[jarrod]

Wow. If NiGHTS only sells 30k, you can pretty much count on SEGA withdrawing any kind of serious support from the Wii, I can tell you that much. 200k for a Mysterious Dungeon game would be pretty bad, too. UC selling 300k would probably be...at the bottom end of expectations for Capcom.

See the problem here is you're just looking at it from your expectations/perceptions. SEGA, SE, and Capcom would not be satisfied with the type of expectations you're putting forth, and their expectations are the ones that count for future support.

Shiren 1 (SFC) only sold around 350k and Shiren 2 (N64) around 250k iirc. Around 200k wouldn't be bad for the series really.... not amazing either honestly, but decent at least.

Biohazard UC at 300k would be pretty good for that series as well, well ahead of the PS2 Survivor games (even better than GS1 actually) and certainly better than Ghost Squad or Time Crisis 4 are going to manage. Considering it's using mostly old assets and is likely being patchworked together in secret by TOSE or NEX, 300k would be a pretty decent success I'd say honestly. :lol


Agreed on NiGHTS though... the Saturn original broke 500k iirc, though that was during SOJ's consumer heyday, where things like Sega Rally, Virtua Fighter, Sakura Taisen, Virtua Cop, Puyo Puyo, Virtual On, Daytona, Panzer Dragoon or 2D Capcom/SNK fighters were moving similar or better units. I'd say 100k would be a decent enough success for NiGHTS Wii though.... like with Sonic, SEGA's likely expecting the vast majority of sales to come from the US/UK.

 

[Stumpokapow]

Not bad for ASH and Gundam.

Very bad for ASH, actually. Price collapse is already in full effect and first day sales were only 30% of retailer preorder.

 

[Jokeropia]

I think the issue is that not many games have sold at that level on Wii.

The PS2 had much better third party support out of the gates than Wii, and was still way behind in overall sales due to the huge success of the top Wii games.

Onimusha: Warlords
Ridge Racer V
Gekikuukan Pro Yakyuu
World Soccer Winning Eleven 5
Tekken Tag Tournament
Mobile Suit Gundam: Journey to Jaburo
Kessen
The Bouncer
Victorious Boxers
Dead or Alive 2
Dynasty Warriors 2
Jikkyou Powerful Pro Yakyuu 7
FIFA Soccer World Championship
Resident Evil Code: Veronica X

Check the release dates, several of those are 2001. There are 12 PS2 games released in 2000 that sold more than 250k. (The last one just barely.)

 

[noonche]

The PS2 had much better third party support out of the gates than Wii, and was still way behind in overall sales due to the huge success of the top Wii games.
Check the release dates, several of those are 2001. There are 12 PS2 games released in 2000 that sold more than 250k. (The last one just barely.)

They should all be early be before April 2001 since the PS2 was released April 2000. I'm also not sure that I buy that PS2 had better third party in its first year. It sold well, but I remember there was a lot of jack and crap for the system up until games like GT3 and FFX started dropping. Is there a better place to search for older numbers/release lists?

 

[ziran]

ASH sold as expected, i.e. another SRPG selling to a niche group. It could end up ~150K, and should manage at least 100K, which, all things considered with the current buying climate, is good imo.

Old, traditional gaming continues to be stagnant or declining in Japan, and doesn't show signs of recovering. Things have changed, and those developers finding new ways to play old games and creating new games to play, i.e. Nintendo and a small number of 3rd parties, have a much better chance of reaping big financial rewards.

The Japanese market has become remarkably Nintendo-centric. It seems to need new games from EAD and SPD to grow and show health. If this is the case we will see clearly with the release of Wii Fit and SMG. SSBB could be interesting. While essentially an old game, it is one which is loved and is Nintendo renowned, unlike so many of these 3rd party titles like DBZ, and has Mario Kart type mass market appeal, again something only Nintendo seems to be able to pull off.

I'm beginning to wonder where the big home console profits in Japan are going to lie for 3rd parties reluctant, or unable, to change strategies. Dev costs and small installed bases for PS3, 360 make them hugely problematic, PS2 has a limited life and Wii doesn't seem to be taking the slack with shovelware ports or original B-Team content, which isn't surprising. Maybe if a title like DBZ was built from the ground up only for Wii, it would do well, but this kind of strategy is a long way off because 3rd parties are still frightened of putting all their eggs in the Nintendo basket.

As far as Japan is concerned, I see more trouble for 3rd parties. The HD old gaming salvation, or what there is of it, is abroad.

 

[jarrod]

They should all be early be before April 2001 since the PS2 was released April 2000.

Even still, you'd be comparing 12 months of PS2 sales to 9 months of Wii sales. December 2000 would be the more appropriate cutoff date.

I'm also not sure that I buy that PS2 had better third party in its first year.

It's inarguable, PS2 had every major franchise sequel either on the platform or announced as on the way. And basically everything from Japan that was notable was exclusive to it.

 

[BishopLamont]

Disappointing ASH numbers, I think at this point Japan is really bored of traditional games aside from FF or DQ the only games that pull in big numbers are non-games and Nintendo games. Nintendo games are always quality and non-games are the new fad, so it's not hard for them to sell but I think for third party to sell they need to realize the potential of Nintendo hardware to succeed if they don't want to go the non-game route. Layton is a good example it's a traditional adventure game but with a bit of non-game thrown in with the puzzles and the game fully utilizes the touch screen. Bottom line, it's true third party don't sell on Nintendo hardware but that's not Nintendo's fault, it's third parties'.

Edit: Damn ziran just read your post after I wrote mine, you pretty much said what I wanted to say.

 

[Jokeropia]

They should all be early be before April 2001 since the PS2 was released April 2000.

PS2 was released in Japan on March 4th, 2000. That's 10 full months before 2001, which is pretty much exactly what the Wii has had to date.

I'm also not sure that I buy that PS2 had better third party in its first year. It sold well, but I remember there was a lot of jack and crap for the system up until games like GT3 and FFX started dropping. Is there a better place to search for older numbers/release lists?

Just look at games in the sales list. Ridge Racer, Tekken and Dynasty Warriors main series are all bigger franchises than every third party Wii game except for DQ:S. (Which is about the same level.)

 

[Moor-Angol]

uhm...

the discussion "3rd party games on Wii don't sell !!!" reminds me another old discussion, lasted till 12-15 months ago: 3rd party games don't sell on DS

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Oh, I did double check! PS3's average third party sales are higher

Doing the math now with the linked-to Dalthien numbers.

PS3 third party titles listed: 26
PS3 third party sales total: 1,209,215
PS3 third party sales average: 46,508

Wii third party titles listed: 43
Wii third party sales total: 1,934,983
Wii third party sales average: 45,000

It does help the PS3 average that there are 40% fewer third party games competing for the sales. But being the best-selling Wii third-party game gives you much better numbers than being the best-selling PS3 third-party game (453K to 278K). Being the tenth best-selling Wii third-party game gives you much better numbers than being the tenth best-selling PS3 third-party game (63K to 35K). Being the twentieth best-selling Wii third-party game gives you much better numbers than being the twentieth best-selling PS3 third-party game (25K to 10K). There appears to only be one exception: currently the third best-selling PS3 third-party game is above the third best-selling Wii third-party game (105K to 134K).

I think the issue is that not many games have sold at that level on Wii.

Within 2000 PS2 saw the following, all selling over 250k. According to Moor Angol's site.

*snip*

That's 14 to 8 by my count.

I think an awful lot of those must've been thanks to the 2000 holiday bump. The last time I patched together PS2 sales by top 30s was its week 40 (Wii is now at 44; PS3 is now at 47), and it had only seven titles over 250K at that time. Possibly eight, if one of them managed about 12K more after disappearing from the top 30 list.

Greatest to least:
Ridge Racer V
Gekikuukan Pro Baseball: At the End of the Century 1999
Tekken　TAG　TOURNAMENT
Kessen
Dead or Alive 2
Jikkyou Powerful Pro baseball 7
Shin Sangoku Musou

and maybe:
FIFA Soccer World Championship