But of course we're not talking about getting a girl pregnant, we're talking about carrying a child to term.
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Men rights and issues
- Thread starter SquiddyCracker
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But of course we're not talking about getting a girl pregnant, we're talking about carrying a child to term.
It's an attempt at responding to sites like this one http://www.dontdatehimgirl.com/home/. Childish, perhaps.
Again, I no longer trust rape statistics. Too many examples of feminists distorting them with crazy definitions of rape.
The very fact that it's possible under the act to do this sickens me. It's an assault on fundamental rights
I did say it was my personal experience (I actually grew up in the UK). Feminsts are ALWAYS on the two main news channels here, and in the newspapers. The attitudes ran rampant in my schooling. In addition, my mother in an American feminist. I know the ideology, and I have suffered under it
apart from the appalling content, worst layout ive legitimately ever seen. i honestly am more offended by that than anything else.
Ein Soph Aur
Member
I agree.
What is holding men back? It is just as easy to reverse the argument, what are you basing your point on besides nothing?
the first Mudkips post that I remember is one where you tried to convince someone that the term "white trash" is a racist phrase. Keep on defending those white people and those men you sad, misguided person.
We need more posts like this.
I don't think anyone that gets together in a group for "men's rights" are gonna be positive.
You do have some groups for changing alimony, and a few to change the way men are portrayed in the media. I think these tend to be rather inoffensive. But these are single issue "groups" not ones saying "Men are downtrodden!"
But I'd think (and this is just me) that the people that really think there should be a group and a movement around it are probably not gonna be likely to be positive.
For example, I have a friend that was totally take to the cleaners by his ex. She accused him of molsting their kids, and made them lie, the judge threw out the case but only after several months and hundreds of thousands of dollars in defense. And the kids were really messed up and the guy's reputation is severely tarnished. He's a men's rights guy. And I can see why. But I can also see why you really shouldn't be talking to him about it and expect an average view because his experience was not average.
That' the kind of guys combined with those that have felt "percieved" wrongs that MRA groups attract.
I'm defending two different things in two completely different situations, not simultaneously.
I do agree, and I feel bad for women facing the advertisers' propaganda too. It never seems to be mentioned much with regards to men though
"Buy our razers and have ferraris and wear Lynx and WOMEN will like you! Your life is an endless parade of status-acquisition to impress women!"
From the previous page:
From the other thread:
Boys Adrift: The Five Factors Driving the Growing Epidemic of Unmotivated Boys and Underachieving Young Men
http://www.amazon.com/Boys-Adrift-Ep...dp/0465072100/
Why Boys Fail: Saving Our Sons from an Educational System That's Leaving Them Behind
http://www.amazon.com/Why-Boys-Fail-...dp/0814420176/
The Trouble with Boys: A Surprising Report Card on Our Sons, Their Problems at School, and What Parents and Educators Must Do
http://www.amazon.com/The-Trouble-Bo...dp/0307381293/
http://www.prb.org/articles/2007/crossoverinfemalemalecollegeenrollmentrates.aspx
Basically. If this thread were strictly about Alimony or child support being skewed in the favor of women or something more specific it would be another story. But the thought of a an entire movement being required seems to suggest a plethora of problems men face. I don't want to say that us guys don't face some bullshit, but given how bad other people have it I can't really say that we need this, we're ahead.
cutmeamango
Banned
Aren't "men's rights" included in the academia of liberal feminism/equity feminism?
I mean, even under feminism there is this clash.
Who stole Feminism?
And to dismiss the idea that "feminism" is one inidivisible ideology (as it was responded to me, that academic feminism is entirely separate from what's discussed here) you can always read
this page.
There are issues that call for equity and others that inescapably call for balance.
But as this topic is proof, an egotistical perspective must be the rule. No wonder the 'smart ones' (modern oligarchies) tap dance all over us.
I mean, even under feminism there is this clash.
Who stole Feminism?
Haven't found one peer review that declassifies this book thoroughly.
And to dismiss the idea that "feminism" is one inidivisible ideology (as it was responded to me, that academic feminism is entirely separate from what's discussed here) you can always read
this page.
There are issues that call for equity and others that inescapably call for balance.
But as this topic is proof, an egotistical perspective must be the rule. No wonder the 'smart ones' (modern oligarchies) tap dance all over us.
Devolution
Member
People want to know why these issues aren't taken seriously and I'm telling them straight up, their spokespeople so far are misogynistic bitter brats. If they want to get angry about the truth oh well. I have discussed these issues and I've linked to books and studies about them. I'm not a "men have no issues worth discussing" advocate but I cannot in good conscience act like the groups in this movement are anything but hate groups.
Conflating women's history with that of African Americans. Nice.
freenudemacusers
Member
Alert Alert landmines detected on the field.
Yes.
Alas the latter often being a consequence of the former.
Well, the only way this would make any sense to me is if by "patriarchy" you guys meant "the way society works in general". But then you should just say that, instead of using a word like patriarchy, which is confusing the hell of this debate.
Those are a bunch of issues, and they all concern men. Men's issues, if you will. Why wouldn't you let people organize the way they will, unless you have some kind of weird prejudice that men coming together to advocate their own rights is an anomaly in itself?
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
That's true, and I can't blame women for going after that portion of guys over all the others. That's universal in basically every species. But look at what that means for all the other guys: a struggle to be in the portion getting laid. Self improvement. Work. More sadness and loneliness.
Girls shouldn't be expected to do anything about this, it's just life for the most part (a part of life that many males can come to handle in a rational manner), but some people don't even acknowledge it as a source of despair in a man's life. And that's ridiculous.
TUROK
Member
I honestly can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.
It definitely can be construed as a racist phrase.
I honestly don't understand this reasoning that defending people who are "privileged" from inequality is misguided, since they're already well-off. It strikes me as a very bitter way of looking at things.
Couldn't the same argument be made about sexist women using the feminist platform for bashing men? See cutmeamango's post above. Doesn't make sense to me to deny the movement shouldn't exist because some may wish to abuse it.
Karsticles
Member
No, the situation really is the same: there is a child coming into this world, and one must decide whether it gets the support it needs or not. What does it matter where things like "blame" and "fault" lie? According to your initial post, it's not acceptable to fault the child, and this was your reason for not denying the child support.
Devolution
Member
Dude don't be delusional.
Well I don't think it's necessarily right to say that the groups aren't taken seriously because they're misogynistic. Well again only for the single issue groups they seem to have had some success in getting family law re-written, I remember a group pushing for stronger visitation rights enforcement. They were pretty positively received. And I think some of the malerape ones are too. But there is an issue where, even in malerape, sometimes they're just not taken very seriously because they're men. I've worked with teens that were victims of malerape and that was something I kept running into the perception that "This doesn't happen to MEN."
It seems to me that the single issue groups can be effective and positive. It's the general blanket groups that are toxic.
EmCeeGramr
Member
How long until "biotruths" get deployed in here?
Devolution
Member
Yes which is why, as a bunch of people have mentioned, it's better to talk about individual issues than a whole movement as if men are globally disenfranchised like women or minorities. I wanted to do this earlier but a whole stupid debate over whether a movement was even necessary started up.
Some clarification please? The lack of maturity and respect here and elsewhere towards men's rights is disheartening, but I don't think it proves that MRM shouldn't exist. Same as some extreme feminists trying to spoil it for everyone.
With the latter included, which is what we're talking about, a "surefire" way of making sure that doesn't happen is abortion. This is why I make the distinction.
Devolution
Member
Comparing a group that seeks to deal with an oppressed minority vs a group that seeks to rectify inequalities for a privileged group is a dumb comparison to make.
So you don't believe rape statistics but you do believe that there's a massive ammount of false rape claims out there to the point that mens' right to, I guess have sex without being accused of rape, are trampled upon. Also, feminists have created new definitions of rape so they can claim more false rape claims?
'Kay. I don't have a response for that because all the numbers, in your opinion, have been skewed. Pray tell, why do you feel rape is not as prevalent as most do?
Making a false claim was doable before the act. There's plenty of ways for people to make false claims about all sorts of laws. Saying that "something is possible" isn't an argument against it. You would have to have numbers supporting your case.
So, in your personal experience. You do realize that you might have your opinions clouded by whatever happened to you? How does one suffer under feminist ideology? Everything that you've said so far is "I feel this way, just 'cause, and your numbers are tainted."
I'm not part of this privileged group you keep mentioning. Not all men are white, affluent and winning at life.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
So, a woman who signs one of this contracts end up with two possibilities once pregnant:
1. Give birth and pay for the kid herself.
2. Have an abortion
Meaning that you either end up with potentially poor single mothers, or pregnant women pressured by knowledge of the former into having an abortion.
Moral Panic
Member
The problem of course in the end is empathy. Or rather the lack of it. Everyone on each side seems to think that the other side's "got it all", when obviously each have their own issues to deal with. It all depends what you value in life and how far from the norm you tend to stray.
From my viewpoint, although like everything this is totally subjective, men seem to have a more financial options but are expected to be more cramped emotionally. A man cannot wear flowery dresses. If he stays at home to look after the kids he is seen as weak and lazy. He mustn't cry. A man cannot paint his toenails and wear high heals. But should the man conform he can be a CEO, or a banker, sleep with many women without major societal disapproval and go almost anywhere in the world. You are allowed and expected to use force and occasionally violence to get what you want.
A woman can wear a suit. She can attempt to go for most jobs. She is allowed to be emotional. A woman is expected to be well dressed at every occasion. It is societally acceptable to openly comment on her form and manner of dressing. Her sexual choices have more societal implications and society uses that as an excuse (reason?) to ask questions, make demands and pass judgement. Its is almost demanded that a woman likes children. It is generally expected that she eventually get married and have kids.
I don't know why I typed out all of that lol (might as well post it).
From my viewpoint, although like everything this is totally subjective, men seem to have a more financial options but are expected to be more cramped emotionally. A man cannot wear flowery dresses. If he stays at home to look after the kids he is seen as weak and lazy. He mustn't cry. A man cannot paint his toenails and wear high heals. But should the man conform he can be a CEO, or a banker, sleep with many women without major societal disapproval and go almost anywhere in the world. You are allowed and expected to use force and occasionally violence to get what you want.
A woman can wear a suit. She can attempt to go for most jobs. She is allowed to be emotional. A woman is expected to be well dressed at every occasion. It is societally acceptable to openly comment on her form and manner of dressing. Her sexual choices have more societal implications and society uses that as an excuse (reason?) to ask questions, make demands and pass judgement. Its is almost demanded that a woman likes children. It is generally expected that she eventually get married and have kids.
I don't know why I typed out all of that lol (might as well post it).
But simply by BEING a man you are given advantages in society not available to women.
I know from first hand experience how bad it can be being a male during family court when it comes to child custody and child support. It honestly was like being run down by a long series of steam engines going full speed ahead, all while knowing in the end all that awaits you is probably a giant brick wall that will help the system crush you like a bug. It's nothing more than a nightmare, and work does need to be done to fix that as equality in family court has a bad habit of being far and few between.
The situation is not the same. I outlined two completely different situations. According to my original post it's not acceptable to "fault" the child due to negligence on the part of the parents.
Moral Panic
Member
Not really any use if you never get to use them.
That is a racist phrase. And no i'm not white and yes I am a believer in the existence of white privilege.
Did I say that?
Yes.
http://www.popcenter.org/problems/rape/
"use of verbal coercion to obtain sexual intercourse;" - what a ludicrous definition. Any words directly or indirectly aimed towards sex may apply.
FLIRTING IS RAPE according to this study
"indecent exposure in college libraries;
"peeping Toms" on college campuses;
obscene phone calls made to college students;
sexual harassment;
abuse in college dating relationships (including violence other than sexual victimization); and
stalking of college students.
The above are categorised as "acquaintance rape". What on Earth has happened to the definition of rape that it can include stalking?
Hopefully you see now
OK well as my field is law I feel highly concerned that is is legally possible.
Yes. An individuals experience over a lifetime in a society is a valid point of reference. I have also read thoroughly into the subject and know what I am talking about, so it is not just me blowing smoke.
I would bet you get them in ways you're not even aware of. For example, you're probably never afraid walking alone at night that you're going to be taken in an alley and raped.
Can you list the privileges for the everyday male?
Cause I'd like to take advantage of these.
Indeed, I have a friend that went through that.
Here's the kicker, though. That effects whole families. Not just men or women, the whole group.
Devolution
Member
I got catcalled at my own fucking window. Nothing like feeling unsafe in your own home.
WorriedCitizen
Member
You are generalizing way too much for my taste. It's just wrong to assume that every man leads a privileged life. Tell that for instance to the millions of conscripts who died on the battlefield during the last 100 years alone.
Moral Panic
Member
Maybe not raped, but you might be afraid you will get robbed and stabbed.
The number of false equivalences in this thread is pretty impressive already, but this one takes the cake.
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
I agree.
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