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[Dan]

http://www.comingsoon.net/news/topnews.php?id=7160

Michael Moore Planning Fahrenheit 9/11½
Source: Variety, November 11, 2004

Michael Moore tells Variety he met with Harvey Weinstein and they plan to start working now on Fahrenheit 9/11½. "We want to get cameras rolling now and have it ready in two-three years," Moore told columnist Army Archerd.

"We want to document and commercialize it," added Moore, "Fifty-one percent of the American people lacked information (in this election) and we want to educate and enlighten them. They weren't told the truth. We're communicators and it's up to us to start doing it now. The official mourning period is over today and there is a silver lining -- George W. Bush is prohibited by law from running again."

The issues (for the next film) have not changed because of the election. "They are Iraq and terrorism." Moore will also continue preparing his other film, Sicko, on the national health care industry.

Moore says he and Weinstein are going ahead on the Oscar campaign for Fahrenheit 9/11 in the Best Picture category and other categories.

Ugh. Does anyone really believe Moore isn't primarily about the money at this point?

And does anyone really think he did more good than harm for the Democrats during the last election? He is just a trump card that makes people go, "nope, no way I can go to that side and relate with them" just as evangelicals and the likes of Rush Limbaugh tend to trump other attributes of the Republican Party for many people. The Democrats need to be more accessible in the future, not less. They've got to eliminate their connections with people that even many moderates despise. I realize Moore isn't often directly related to the Democratic Party, but he did campaign for Wesley Clark and did his own little turn out the vote stuff as well, and a significant portion of the population doesn't separate him from the party. The Dems need to reach across the void and attract people with well-founded arguments and charismatic approaches, not a man who incites hatred and controversy.

 

[Ghost]

At this point its hard to see him doing more good than harm to the democrats.

 

[Alcibiades]

 

[belgurdo]

I thought the end of the election would put an end to the tired, repetitive "this political commentator sucks, let's roast him" circle jerk threads. Guess I have a lot to learn, I suppose

 

[Alcibiades]

Moore was given the seat of honor at the Democratic Party next to Jimmy Carter, that turned off quite a few people IMO...

to call Moore a political commentator would be a disservice to the talking-head/pundit people (who already rank pretty low)...

 

[Alcibiades]

Moore was given the seat of honor at the Democratic Convention next to Jimmy Carter, that turned off quite a few people IMO...

to call Moore a political commentator would be a disservice to the talking-head/pundit people (who already rank pretty low)...

 

[Kettch]

Ugh. Does anyone really believe Moore isn't primarily about the money at this point?

I was under the impression that the profits from F9/11 were given to charity, but I only remember that from an earlier thread here, so I could be mistaken.

 

[Alcibiades]

I was under the impression that the profits from F9/11 were given to charity, but I only remember that from an earlier thread here, so I could be mistaken.

what about the millions from book profits and speaking lectures?

I'd guess it's a mix of an agenda + making money...

If he really wanted to have helped Democrats for the election, he would have removed himself from the picture (and probably delayed release of his movie), but maybe he thought "dumb Americans" (as he puts it) would really not look through the deceptions of his movie..

 

[xsarien]

what about the millions from book profits and speaking lectures?

I'd guess it's a mix of an agenda + making money...

Ah, so not donating enough to charity magically makes him a hypocrite. Would you like a ladder? Those straws are on a pretty high shelf.

 

[Alcibiades]

uh, where did I say he was a hypocrite?

he's not, he sticks to his conspiracy-pushing agenda, doesn't complain about piraters spreading his message, and in the face of helping Republicans during the campaign, doesn't relent an move away... he's in it for any and an agenda, where did I say he was a hypocrite?

 

[Alcibiades]

uh, where did I say he was a hypocrite?

he's not, he sticks to his conspiracy-pushing agenda, doesn't complain about piraters spreading his message, and in the face of helping Republicans during the campaign, doesn't relent an move away... he's in it for money and spreading an agenda, where did I say he was a hypocrite?

I could care less if he makes more money, the more visibility he has, the better it is for Republicans in the mid-term '06 elections...

Heck, I'd like for him to remain as loosely connected to the Democratic Party...

if his new movie makes another $100 million and gets tons of media attention, it'll further marginalize the Democratic Party (even though he attacks it) because he's already associated with them...

you can't undo Terry McAuliffe's support of him and the Democratic Convention giving him a seat of honor...

 

[Willco]

God, what a self-indulgent asshole. People like Michael Moore are why the Democrats lost the election.

 

[BuddyC]

"We want to document and commercialize it," added Moore, "Fifty-one percent of the American people lacked information (in this election) and we want to educate and enlighten them. They weren't told the truth. We're communicators and it's up to us to start doing it now. The official mourning period is over today and there is a silver lining -- George W. Bush is prohibited by law from running again."

This is like the time when a good chunk of my class admitted they thought Fahrenheit 9/11 was entirely factual and unbiased. Oy.

 

[LaneMeyer]

This is like the time when a good chunk of my class admitted they thought Fahrenheit 9/11 was entirely factual and unbiased. Oy.

its not?

 

[BuddyC]

its not?

 

[tedtropy]

Farenheit 9/11.5: The JesusFreaks Strike Back

 

[BarneyBP]

As far as I remember, Moore kept his profits to finance Sicko. It was Disney (they got a large chunk of profit in the agreement in which Fellowship could release the film) who gave their profit to charity.

 

[Bizarro Sun Yat-sen]

And does anyone really think he did more good than harm for the Democrats during the last election? He is just a trump card that makes people go, "nope, no way I can go to that side and relate with them" just as evangelicals and the likes of Rush Limbaugh tend to trump other attributes of the Republican Party for many people.

Nope, I think this effect is all in your head and anyone claiming Michael Moore drove them away from Kerry almost certainly wouldn't have voted for him anyway. Moore's everyman image and populist style appeal to white working class voters who have drifted away from the Democratic party in recent years. If anything it's the more typical 'elitist', intellectual Democratic style that many people have trouble relating to.

By the way, I don't know in what alternate universe you've been living but in my universe, Rush Limbaugh and evangelicals have both enormously benefited the Republican Party. Democrats only dream of finding a propagandist as effective as Limbaugh.

 

[Dan]

By the way, I don't know in what alternate universe you've been living but in my universe, Rush Limbaugh and evangelicals have both enormously benefited the Republican Party. Democrats only dream of finding a propagandist as effective as Limbaugh.

I wasn't trying to imply they weren't benefitial, but that at their best they can only really serve to preach to the choir. And if this election shows anything, it seems to be that one choir is bigger than the other, in which case Moore's divisiveness is counterproductive to the Democratic Party's goals in almost every way. They don't really do a damned thing to reach across the table and lure anyone to their side, not in my experience.

 

[sefskillz]

People like Michael Moore are why the Democrats lost the election.

haha. what? i'd say 95-99% of bush voters didn't even see the movie. they just went with what fox news and local conservative radio talk show host told them too, forming their hatred for moore along the way. you think a single person was like, "oh yes.. i'm ready for a change, OH BUT THAT MICHAEL MOORE, I CAN'T SIDE WITH HIM.. I'LL VOTE BUSH!" ?

 

[Alucard]

Watched Bowling For Columbine again yesterday. While people may disagree with the way Moore goes about getting his point accross, I think his concerns are still more than valid and he gets people talking. What's so bad about that? I'm glad that he questions power structures, our way of life, and brings these issues to a mass audience.

Michael Moore respect +1.

 

[FortNinety]

You know, the guy had so much good material to derive from when it came to Fahrenheit, yethe just still had to twist the truth for no good reason. I know he means well, and I used to be a big fan of his, but right now, he really needs to just quiet down.

 

[Particle Physicist]

As far as I remember, Moore kept his profits to finance Sicko. It was Disney (they got a large chunk of profit in the agreement in which Fellowship could release the film) who gave their profit to charity.

wow.. that was pretty damn nice of Disney.

 

[lexi]

Moore is great for the simple fact he get every single Republicans panties in a knot faster than you can say 'Project for a New American Century'

 

[BarneyBP]

I found the link about Disney and charity:

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0702-07.htm

 

[Eminem]

he just needs to shut up.

 

[Willco]

haha. what? i'd say 95-99% of bush voters didn't even see the movie. they just went with what fox news and local conservative radio talk show host told them too, forming their hatred for moore along the way. you think a single person was like, "oh yes.. i'm ready for a change, OH BUT THAT MICHAEL MOORE, I CAN'T SIDE WITH HIM.. I'LL VOTE BUSH!" ?

That's a pretty gross exaggeration of those whom supported Bush. Fact is, a lot of conservatives have problems with Bush, especially conservatives who straddle the line, but that condescending fat fuck does nothing but speak down to people. And he was virtually a Democratic spokesperson this election and he's one of those people that turns potential Kerry swing votes away. The Democrats rally around these people who just alienate conservatives, whereas Bush does not.

he just needs to shut up.

And everyone would be off.

 

[xsarien]

he's in it for any and an agenda, where did I say he was a hypocrite?

The fact that this is at least the second or third time that you've brought up the fact that "he doesn't give any of it to charity" suggests some kind of pre-conceived notion that he's somehow required to do so. If it's not important - or relevant - why the hell did you bring it up?

 

[Willco]

No, this election proved that preaching to the choir can win you an election. Kerry tried to reach out to undecideds. Bush focused much more on getting out the vote among those who already supported him. That's why Bush won. There's no proof that one "choir" is any bigger than the other.

The main difference is that Kerry was weak across the board in his political views and stances; trying to stay "safe" while people like Michael Moore shot off their mouth for the Democratic party. I really don't see how they benefit from putting a very polarizing figure in the public spotlight for your political party. It doesn't really help, all it does is make gun owners, nationalists and such feel like they're being attacked.

Rove is a genius and had Bush keep up his rhetoric to the conservative populace and not belittle the rest of the country, but he was pretty much irrelevant with the liberal vote anyway, since they were intent in kicking him out of office.

 

[BruceWayne]

 George W. Bush is prohibited by law from running again

According to Moore's movie., I thought Bush didn't really get elected.
So shouldn't Bush be allowed to run in 2008?

 

[explodet]

I'm curious to see how Sicko will be received.

 

[DCX]

I'm curious to see how Sicko will be received.

I think that film will do alot more for america than his last one. I mean he will expose to the general public how crooked and shady the medical industry really is and we WILL see a huge chnage in opinion, more so than Fahrenheit 9/11.

DCX

 

[Mermandala]

I don't buy the idea that there were voters in any significant numbers that wanted to vote for Kerry over Bush that then thought to themselves "Hmm, Michael Moore is a fat windbag - as much as I don't WANT to - I'm going to have to vote AGAINST Michael Moore and go Bush". That is nonsense. MM was largely(Hah!) irrelevant on both sides. Just like Limbaugh he's ignored by the middle and serves the party hardliners.

 

[Willco]

I don't buy the idea that there were voters in any significant numbers that wanted to vote for Kerry over Bush that then thought to themselves "Hmm, Michael Moore is a fat windbag - as much as I don't WANT to - I'm going to have to vote AGAINST Michael Moore and go Bush". That is nonsense. MM was largely(Hah!) irrelevant on both sides. Just like Limbaugh he's ignored by the middle and serves the party hardliners.

I never said Michael Moore was THE REASON WHY KERRY LOST.

I'll post what I said for those who those of us just tuning in...

People like Michael Moore are why the Democrats lost the election.

Michael Moore is just one of the many Democratic figureheads that saturated the airwaves constantly with rhetoric and polarizing views that did nothing but help Bush secure enough votes to win.

 

[Mermandala]

OK. I believe you. Who are some others though? Names plus disparaging adjectives like "self-indulgent, asshole, condescending fat fuck" please. I think people like KERRY are why the Democrats lost. He was a bum candidate from the get-go.

Some more insight into this "rhetoric and polarizing views" would be helpful as well. I understand this is true of MM calling folks dumb and all but who else?

EDIT: Al Franken - I WIN!!!

 

[Drinky Crow]

Willco, you're utterly nuts. And Limbaugh/Coulter/Hannity/Scarborough et al didn't do the same for the righties? At least Moore does some basic investigation and has a good deal of artistic talent -- that's far more than you can say for the talking heads on the right.

Personally, I'm a big fan of Michael Moore, and it's nice to see a public liberal take a stance that isn't wishy-washy and capitulating. Righties don't tone down their bombast for liberal sensibilties, so why should the left be the ones to hold a hand out -- how about the right take the time to say "sorry about the tax cuts for the wealthy and the Bible-thumping, what say we compromise" for once? Have you just gotten so use to the liberals being the nice guys/gals that you just assume we'll "play nice"?

Fuck that noise. You got your wealthy Evangelical elites in power -- it's time for some hardball.

Also what Mermandala said. Except that I really think the AVERAGE Bush voter *is* dumb (or reasonably smart and very screwed up emotionally, which might as well be dumb), and I have yet to see any evidence to prove otherwise.

 

[human5892]

I agree with Drinky Crow (this could only be said on the OT!).

Also, I like how Michael Moore has to donate x amount of dollars to charity to be a worthwhile human being to some of you. Who cares if he kept all the profits from his movies? Wow, a human being likes making money! What an asshole!

 

[Alcibiades]

Two points:

-Moore himself estimates that about 20% of Fahrenheit 9/11 viewers were/are Bush supporters (he says it changes their mind). I know tons of Bush supporters that saw it when they showed it for free in my college, I'd estimate Bush supporters were about 40% of a large auditorium room... (100+)...

-If you don't think Moore hurt Democrats, you should have listened to some of Shaun Hannity's show, sure it speaks a lot to only the base, but they definitely spread the word as if Moore himself was sanctioned by Democrats, and even tons of liberals that called Hannity's show conceded Moore hurt the Democrats...

 

[Alcibiades]

I agree with Drinky Crow (this could only be said on the OT!).

Also, I like how Michael Moore has to donate x amount of dollars to charity to be a worthwhile human being to some of you. Who cares if he kept all the profits from his movies? Wow, a human being likes making money! What an asshole!

who here has said they care if he keeps his money or not, I don't know and I don't care...

who has called him an asshole?

who says he has to donate money to be a worthwhile human being? even if he gave 100% of his profits I wouldn't consider him worthwhile in a positive way other than it severely riled up the Bush base and pushed independents away from Democrats...

 

[Dan]

Willco, you're utterly nuts. And Limbaugh/Coulter/Hannity/Scarborough et al didn't do the same for the righties?

I would say no. You have to look for those guys. You either have to listen to their radio show, watch their television show or buy their books. Michael Moore could not be avoided for a long chunk of this year. He had a movie come out that featured him and had ads on constantly, and even later with the DVD promotions. He was on all news channels talking about the movie and various other things. He did a couple national tours through colleges and other venues. He was news. Even when he wasn't present someone else was talking about his stuff. For a couple months he was probably one of the most exposed Americans in the media.

Those other people you mentioned, shit, I barely know who they are because I don't listen/watch/read them. I had never even heard Ann Coulter speak before she was on Bill Maher's show a couple weeks ago. I think I saw Hannity and Scarborough on The Daily Show once, but I don't know a damned thing about them. I know more about Limbaugh's drug scandal than any of his actual political views. Unless you're seeking those people out, they're not doing anything. They were never permeating everyday American discourse from multiple fronts. He was everywhere, whether you wanted to find him or not. Moore was in America's face. Those other guys were anything but.

 

[Ristamar]

Willco, you're utterly nuts. And Limbaugh/Coulter/Hannity/Scarborough et al didn't do the same for the righties?

I'm not a huge fan of extremist personalities on either end of the spectrum, but I definitely agree with this. If anything, I'd say democratic campaign was largely too nice and friendly, thus all the "Kerry's arguments/convictions/stances were weak" jazz that gets thrown around.

 

[Mermandala]

For those of you seemingly tuning out...

Michael Moore is just one of the many Democratic figureheads that saturated the airwaves constantly with rhetoric and polarizing views that did nothing but help Bush secure enough votes to win.

I wished, I washed, and I capitulated, feeding you crumbs of conciliation all in the hopes that you'd expound on this theory of the election swinging on Leftist Media Overdose by the American Middle. This is a CULTURE WAR Dag Nabbit! I VANT ZER NAMEZ!!! This thread was about Michael Moore - you say him and his ilk swung votes from Kerry over to Bush - who are the phantom Ilklings? Where are these airwaves? CNN? Alan Colmes? Sean Penn?

who has called him an asshole?

Willco called him an asshole, that's who. Furthermore, he asserts that there were many others like him. The airwaves were saturated with these others in fact. Kerry lost because of it even. I think some people voted for Bush and others voted for Kerry based on what they thought about these two men and this whole thread presupposes a ridiculous power that the news and entertainment media does not have. Political ads is another story though.

Best part of any thread is when efralope shows up with whacked-out personal anecdotes to prove inane points with tons and tons of percentage guesstimates like a bad statistics Macgyver. A realpolitik Rainman that can scan a room and tell you the number of Republicans watching a movie. Give him a pack of bubblegum, a Nintendo DS, and a strawman and he can whip you up a conservative voting bloc.

 

[Willco]

I would say no. You have to look for those guys. You either have to listen to their radio show, watch their television show or buy their books. Michael Moore could not be avoided for a long chunk of this year. He had a movie come out that featured him and had ads on constantly, and even later with the DVD promotions. He was on all news channels talking about the movie and various other things. He did a couple national tours through colleges and other venues. He was news. Even when he wasn't present someone else was talking about his stuff. For a couple months he was probably one of the most exposed Americans in the media.

Those other people you mentioned, shit, I barely know who they are because I don't listen/watch/read them. I had never even heard Ann Coulter speak before she was on Bill Maher's show a couple weeks ago. I think I saw Hannity and Scarborough on The Daily Show once, but I don't know a damned thing about them. I know more about Limbaugh's drug scandal than any of his actual political views. Unless you're seeking those people out, they're not doing anything. They were never permeating everyday American discourse from multiple fronts. He was everywhere, whether you wanted to find him or not. Moore was in America's face. Those other guys were anything but.

Bingo. Bingo. Bingo.

I'm not saying that conservative people like Hannity don't exist, but Hannity didn't seem like he was running for election along with Bush, whereas I wondered who was going to be vice-president if Kerry was elected -- Michael Moore or John Edwards?

I also don't see a great deal of Americans angered by remarks from Sean Hannity or felt their beliefs attacked by Sean Hannity, but we do see how upset many get over the stuff Michael Moore says.

I voted for Kerry and I still think Michael Moore is a douche. And I do concur that the selection of Kerry as the Democratic candidate was also a big reason for the downfall of the Democratic party, but Michael Moore does more damage to his party than good.

All he does is make people hate Bush who already didn't like him and let college kids think they know what's going. None of these people were going to vote for Bush and as we saw the other week, you probably couldn't get college kids to vote unless you offered them copies of Halo 2.

EDIT: And I did call Michael Moore an asshole. I've felt that way since Bowling for Columbine. There was a movie where I think he took a valid concern, made some convincing arguments and acted like a complete asshole at the end.

 

[Mermandala]

Serious question Willco, you hate Michael Moore a lot, that's cool... then why do you believe it swung other voters when it didn't swing you?

 

[Willco]

Serious question Willco, you hate Michael Moore a lot, that's cool... then why do you believe it swung other voters when it didn't swing you?

Because Michael Moore and his ilk don't attack my moral beliefs. I don't give a crap about two dudes kissing each other, people not owning guns, nationalism, etc.

I'm pretty much an independent that straddles the line, but leans to the Republican party.

Do I believe liberal talking heads swung voters away from Kerry? Of course. They helped polarize the nation. I'm not saying Michael Moore is the only one responsible, as we can point to some journalists and many other celebrities, but he certainly was the most loud and visible one during the election campaign.

 

[Boogie]

Best part of any thread is when efralope shows up with whacked-out personal anecdotes to prove inane points with tons and tons of percentage guesstimates like a bad statistics Macgyver. A realpolitik Rainman that can scan a room and tell you the number of Republicans watching a movie. Give him a pack of bubblegum, a Nintendo DS, and a strawman and he can whip you up a conservative voting bloc.

:lol

 

[Mermandala]

Voters that care deeply about manlove, shotguns, and flags are not swing voters.

They were never going to vote Kerry. Ever. Unlike you.

You could argue that Fahrenheit 9/11 angered these normally apathetic non-voters to vote for Bush as a salve for their hate and resentment torwards media liberals like Moore as their de facto gunshots in the mounting cutural war winning the race for Bush, but that doesn't make them swing voters. So again, this did not swing votes away from Kerry, I think your vote proves that more than anything. This doesn't make the case that Moore and others helped Democrats, just that their supposed harm was as negligible as Fox and Rush.

 

[etiolate]

Really, if the Democratic party wants to win it needs to stop talking down to people. It is people like Moore, Franken and even Jon Stewart that have in ways hurt the Democratic party. At lest Jon Stewart realized it the day after, he had some comment on his show about it that I wish I could remember. (looking for transcripts)

There is a huge difference between "Hey I have some information to share." and "Hey dummies, you need to know this!". If you don't understand that then you don't understand people.

 

[The Black Gelding]

Really, if the Democratic party wants to win it needs to stop talking down to people. It is people like Moore, Franken and even Jon Stewart that have in ways hurt the Democratic party. At lest Jon Stewart realized it the day after, he had some comment on his show about it that I wish I could remember. (looking for transcripts)

There is a huge difference between "Hey I have some information to share." and "Hey dummies, you need to know this!". If you don't understand that then you don't understand people.

At the same time Republicans/Christain conservatives may talk down to minorities, homosexuals, and foreigners with impunity. I smell bullshit double standards.

Also, what's with the Michael Moore hate. I am willing to wager that more often than not, Moore bashers haven't even seen the flicks that they make a point to speak poorly of. I almost got my ass kicked for talking shit about The Passion of the Christ before I saw it. (After I did, I talked even MORE shit about it) yet, people all around me can talk about how WRONG Moore is even without having seen a single work by him. Face it. Irrationality rules the hearts and minds of the American populace. That's no seceret. How the hell do you think Bush got any votes PERIOD.

 

[etiolate]

At the same time Republicans/Christain conservatives may talk down to minorities, homosexuals, and foreigners with impunity. I smell bullshit double standards.

Some examples of these people with access to media?

And the issue isn't the Republican party, its the Democratic.