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[The Black Gelding]

For an example of the aforementioned look no further than your own vice president, Bill O' Riley, Sean Hannity, Anne Coulter, Rush Limbaugh... shit. You conservatives cannot see the reality before your eyes. No wonder you people support an equally oblivious person like George Bush.

Yes, the Dems have a problem. That problem is the fact that they are, in large part, pussies. They roll over and die or try to play the Republicans game. The presidential race eventually became "Who can be the better Conservative!" Of course Bush would win at that. Also, they have another problem... they are trying to convert Republicans. What they need to do is create their own new voters.

This can be done by taking a lesson from the Republicans:

DON'T VOTE FOR KERRY OR HE WILL BAN THE BIBLE!!!

with a little editing:

DON'T VOTE FOR BUSH OR HE WILL SEND YOU TO IRAQ!!



Both are lies, but hey, if you yell something loud enough, and long enough it becomes truth. Look at the number of people that still belive in creationisim.

 

[etiolate]

Some quotes? Make sure to note 'talking down to' doesn't equate to bigoted bashing.

I think the Dems need a heart-string tugging every-man. Clinton had it, Bush has it. You don't win by playing their minds, but by playing their emotions. Of course thats not a good sign for America, but if you want to change that you don't do it through Canidates.

 

[The Black Gelding]

I'm not going to provide "quotes" persay, but I do recall:

Limbaugh saying that drug abusers need to be deported.

O' Riley saying that all Rap/Hip-Hop is mysogonistic and promotes abuse twards women.

Anne Coulter calling Liberals treasonists.

I'm sure Sean Hannity has said some stupid shit as well, but I pride myself in not watching enough of that garbage to let it settle in my brain.

Shit, if you need specific examples to verify that Conservatives in the media are asswipes then you must be at home to a serious mental deficiency, or you don't own a TV.

Point is, if "talking down," means being intelligent and rational then we as a nation do indeed have a bigger problem than I initially thought.

 

[Willco]

Voters that care deeply about manlove, shotguns, and flags are not swing voters.

They were never going to vote Kerry. Ever. Unlike you.

You could argue that Fahrenheit 9/11 angered these normally apathetic non-voters to vote for Bush as a salve for their hate and resentment torwards media liberals like Moore as their de facto gunshots in the mounting cutural war winning the race for Bush, but that doesn't make them swing voters. So again, this did not swing votes away from Kerry, I think your vote proves that more than anything. This doesn't make the case that Moore and others helped Democrats, just that their supposed harm was as negligible as Fox and Rush.

This is wrong, wrong, wrong. If the voters have those diehard religious beliefs and moral values, then yes, it doesn't really matter. But there are plenty of somewhat conservative people that aren't all about prepping America for Armageddon.

Ohio is a perfect example. There you had a somewhat conservative population in parts whose livelihood has deteriorated under Bush. The economy has hurt 'em and they don't agree with Bush on the war and they might think about an alternative. They just might. Even polls agreed that a lot of people who voted for him said they didn't think he was doing a bang up job as Prez.

But you got someone like Moore, who unlike Coulter and Hannity, is everywhere telling people that the war is a sham and guns are stupid and takes a very aggressive stance against a sitting President. It's very agressive, very much like an attack and does nothing but say Guy A stands for this and if you don't vote for him, you suck and Guy B is evil.

I'm not saying that conservatives don't do this, but let's face it, the liberals have various media outlets that they can capitalize on since liberals are primarily within the media. Celebrities and such are everywhere as is and they just take it to the next step.

 

[Alcibiades]

Best part of any thread is when efralope shows up with whacked-out personal anecdotes to prove inane points with tons and tons of percentage guesstimates like a bad statistics Macgyver. A realpolitik Rainman that can scan a room and tell you the number of Republicans watching a movie. Give him a pack of bubblegum, a Nintendo DS, and a strawman and he can whip you up a conservative voting bloc.

Well, if they are wearing "Bush/Cheney"/"Ags for Bush"/"Vote for Kerry... if you're an idiot" (yes actual shirt at a Texas A&M-themed shop, ask Caveman Lawyer he might have seen it) + if I talked to some of them afterwords about who they were voting for and they said Bush then I don't see why they wouldn't be Bush supporters...

also, I have to admit I heard one response that kinda signaled that the Bush support was pretty solid, this chick told me "I just think they're jealous cause the Bush's are good business people", she told me she wasn't politically aware, but I guess there's some 37% of the Republican base that wasn't gonna crack... While normally that's a ridiculous statement, it was from someone that didn't follow politics, and I've seen blind support on both sides (including my best friends, one of whom thinks Bush knew about 9/11), plus it wasn't a ridiculous as a "TSC TSC" sound from someone sitting behind me every 2 minutes as if to let people know he was chastizing Bush, almost ruined the movie for me...

also, my college is a pro-Christian, pro-Right wing kinda place (you'll see shirts like Aggieland: "Where men like still like women" and heck people screaming out in my pyschology class that gays were disgusting straight to a libbie prof's face), so seeing Republicans/Conservatives show up to things they don't agree with isn't that big a deal, I've seen them at this pro-choice speech a few years ago as well...

so yeah, I think many Conservatives and Republicans have watched Fahrenheit 9/11, don't what would make people think they wouldn't, especially those conservatives that remain politically aware of events... Fox News may have lost to CNN in the Democratic Convention ratings, but they weren't a disaster, so overall, I think both Democrats and Republicans probably read each other's columns, events, speeches, movies, etc..., it's not really this out-of-this-world idea...

 

[FortNinety]

I'm not going to provide "quotes" persay, but I do recall:

Limbaugh saying that drug abusers need to be deported.

O' Riley saying that all Rap/Hip-Hop is mysogonistic and promotes abuse twards women.

Anne Coulter calling Liberals treasonists.

I'm sure Sean Hannity has said some stupid shit as well, but I pride myself in not watching enough of that garbage to let it settle in my brain.

Shit, if you need specific examples to verify that Conservatives in the media are asswipes then you must be at home to a serious mental deficiency, or you don't own a TV.

Point is, if "talking down," means being intelligent and rational then we as a nation do indeed have a bigger problem than I initially thought.

Some very good quotes.

But I think the difference here is the Republicans never tried reaching out to the Dems and get their act straightened out, which the Democrats did. And failed and "looked bad" in the process.

 

[Ristamar]

...even Jon Stewart that have in ways hurt the Democratic party. At lest Jon Stewart realized it the day after, he had some comment on his show about it that I wish I could remember. (looking for transcripts)

Jon Stewart? I saw the Daily Show the Wednesday after the election, and I don't recall any such comments, nor did they pull any punches with their usual shtick. I don't think Stewart is at all apologetic for his views, nor for his criticism of the media. Not that he should be...

 

[Mermandala]

Ohio is a perfect example.

Ohio voted for Bush in 2000. I don't think a lot changed there because of ire at Moore and his ilk. You have larger numbers voting on both sides and the result was the same. Florida as well. It's an argument of degrees, I say it's insignificant in the total vote. You think not.

 

[Dilbert]

One more time, people: If you voted for president based on your opinion of Michael Moore -- or any other commentator -- you're a fucking moron.

Hey Moore-haters -- how about a trade? We'll keep him from making any more movies...if and only if you agree to allow the FCC Fairness Doctrine to be reinstated to muzzle your favorite right-wing hatemongering fuck. Sound like a deal? I would gladly trade an interesting movie every couple of years to keep those poisonous snakes from lying into the ears of Intellectually Challenged America day after day.

 

[Alcibiades]

One more time, people: If you voted for president based on your opinion of Michael Moore -- or any other commentator -- you're a fucking moron.

Hey Moore-haters -- how about a trade? We'll keep him from making any more movies...if and only if you agree to allow the FCC Fairness Doctrine to be reinstated to muzzle your favorite right-wing hatemongering fuck. Sound like a deal? I would gladly trade an interesting movie every couple of years to keep those poisonous snakes from lying into the ears of Intellectually Challenged America day after day.

it'd take the deal, if it wasn't for Moore being entertaining, and his movies (well, if Fahrenheit 9/11 is anything to go by) are actually good and entertaining (if not accurate and factual)...

I do hate the FCC thing though, I side with CBS and Stern on this one...

 

[The Black Gelding]

The only brazen inacuracy in Fahrenheit 9/11 was the protrayal of Iraq as a happy go lucky middleastern state. Aside from that, the movie is pretty much fact. He even documented every fact, line for line, on his site. Maybe he wouldn't have to make such a damning flick if the media would do their god damn job and REPORT THE NEWS.

Shit, this fear of a "liberal media" has made it so that the only acceptable media is an overtly conservative media. It's just plain stupid. If the media was so damn "liberal" there would have been MUCH MUCH more criticizim and questioning of the president and his actions. Hell, I bet there is a story bigger and more shocking than Watergate lying around, but this god damn witch hunt for the "liberal media" has caused news organizations to cower away from such things. Fuck them. They are helping this administration hurt the nation AND this WORLD even more.

Liberal media my ass...


Also, Jynx, you are wrong. What you're saying is that even when presented with facts, one should still hold steadfast to his own opinion. Frankly put, if somone were to watch a documentry like "Children of the Secret State" and still think that Iraq was worse than North Korea they would be correct because they didn't see the cut produced by Kim Jung Il? Pft. I say when presented with fact, alter your thinking taking account the information you have just recived. Now. If someone were to be influenced by what they saw in 9/11 I would have no problem with that. Now if they didn't change a SINGLE opinion despite being presented with facts, then they are indeed thickheaded. No wonder they would vote for Bush.

 

[Alcibiades]

true, what he puts on film may be factual in a technical sense, but distorts the picture by removing sense of context and not completing the picture... He doesn't have to give both sides, but presenting a complete picture would help...

For example, just take the first scene, everything he says does happen:

-the networks called Florida for Gore
-then Fox News called Florida and the Presidency for Bush

but what he leaves out that happened in between is very telling, and IMO is an example of him trying to distort the even of Election Night 2000 for the audience. In addition, it's very important if someone is going to get an understanding of what happened that night...

-one network called Florida for Gore
-the rest of the networks (including Fox News) called Florida for Gore
-CBS retracted the call that Florida went for Gore
-the rest of the networks retracted their call
-then Fox News called Florida and the Presidency for Bush
-seconds (at most) later the rest of the networks call Florida and the Presidency for Bush...

does he present what really happened? YES

does he present in a way that the audience comes out with a greater understanding or an accurate portrayal of events? NO

 

[The Black Gelding]

true, what he puts on film may be factual in a technical sense, but distorts the picture by removing sense of context and not completing the picture... He doesn't have to give both sides, but presenting a complete picture would help...

For example, just take the first scene, everything he says does happen:

-the networks called Florida for Gore
-then Fox News called Florida and the Presidency for Bush

but what he leaves out that happened in between is very telling, and IMO is an example of him trying to distort the even of Election Night 2000 for the audience. In addition, it's very important if someone is going to get an understanding of what happened that night...

-one network called Florida for Gore
-the rest of the networks (including Fox News) called Florida for Gore
-CBS retracted the call that Florida went for Gore
-the rest of the networks retracted their call
-then Fox News called Florida and the Presidency for Bush
-seconds (at most) later the rest of the networks call Florida and the Presidency for Bush...

does he present what really happened? YES

does he present in a way that the audience comes out with a greater understanding or an accurate portrayal of events? NO

Yes, but you see, the point of that scene was to show that the initial call was made and helped along by the Bush family. See, it's only that kind of nitpicking that you can make a case against 9/11. The direction and flow of the film would have been lost if he included all the bolded info you posted.

Hell, that wasn't even the point of the film. I already pointed out the most gross distortion made by the documentary, but you know what, the overall message is PRETTY MUCH true. Also, keep in mind that this, like all documentaries have a specific GOAL. It's not the news. I mean, would "Liberia: UNcivil War" retained the same effect if it had showed footage of the "meetings" (meetings is in quotes because everyone knows that the Bush administration hardly ever held meetings for anything, especially for an African nation with no oil supply) that the Bush administration held reguarding the situation in Liberia? No, that wasn't their goal, it wasn't the purpose of the movie.

I feel this hatred for Michael Moore and his "distortion" is unjustified. I also feel that your conservative buds in the media say some pretty disgusting/wrong things but they aren't as openly/blindly vilified.

 

[Alcibiades]

he could have made the point about the Bush cousin being involved with VNS (which went to all the networks not just FOX News) without making it seem like Fox News was going against what the other networks had called, obviously that's the picture he paints...

Not only that, what is your point about the Bush cousin being involved with the call, he was also involved when they called Florida for Gore, does that mean he like Gore over his cousin?

it doesn't make sense, that lack of direction did hurt the film IMO, it was just scenes of implied conspiracy theories that were put together very well (if in a dishonest sense)...

 

[The Black Gelding]

he could have made the point about the Bush cousin being involved with VNS (which went to all the networks not just FOX News) without making it seem like Fox News was going against what the other networks had called, obviously that's the picture he paints...

Not only that, what is your point about the Bush cousin being involved with the call, he was also involved when they called Florida for Gore, does that mean he like Gore over his cousin?

it doesn't make sense, that lack of direction did hurt the film IMO, it was just scenes of implied conspiracy theories that were put together very well (if in a dishonest sense)...

Yes yes. But that was hardly the point of the film. To dismis ALL the facts presented in the film based on extranious info like this!? That's silly. Shit I've even heard this documentary be critisized because it counted the weekends the president took off. The fact remains that the sitting president has no buisness in his position. Prior to 9/11 he was hardly "presidenting" at all. And after it he and his cronies mishandled the situation. If you can't accept that, then I have no buisness talking to you or attempting to sway your opinions concerning such things.

 

[Alcibiades]

I feel this hatred for Michael Moore and his "distortion" is unjustified. I also feel that your conservative buds in the media say some pretty disgusting/wrong things but they aren't as openly/blindly vilified.

well, conservatives may say some pretty nasty things, but they are always willing to discuss, debate, confront, face the opposite point of view, etc...

Michael Moore has been running away from Hannity forever...

Moore isn't just "blindly" vilified, people on the "left" and liberal press and Democratic side have gone after him with thourogh essays as well...

 

[Alcibiades]

Yes yes. But that was hardly the point of the film. To dismis ALL the facts presented in the film based on extranious info like this!? That's silly. Shit I've even heard this documentary be critisized because it counted the weekends the president took off. The fact remains that the sitting president has no buisness in his position. Prior to 9/11 he was hardly "presidenting" at all. And after it he and his cronies mishandled the situation. If you can't accept that, then I have no buisness talking to you or attempting to sway your opinions concerning such things.

well, I was just pointing out one scene since you said only one could be seen as a distortion...

I'm not going to go through this, but I've read through some of Moore's site, and he doesn't address everything his critics point to...

just look for the "deceits" essay that was done, or go to newrepublic.com or slate.com (liberal, websites/newsmags) and you'll find very justified criticism of him...

 

[Zaptruder]

America needs more loud mouted 'fat fucks' like MM, not less.

There's no doubt the common denominator is just plain stupid, and it doesn't help it when liberals try to engage in a campaign that concedes so much territory to the practical and frankly evil nature of the republican campaigns.

Fire needs to be fought with fire... because time and resources isn't on our side for us to win over all the stupid undecided apathetic people with well meaning and reasoned words...

 

[The Black Gelding]

America needs more loud mouted 'fat fucks' like MM, not less.

There's no doubt the common denominator is just plain stupid, and it doesn't help it when liberals try to engage in a campaign that concedes so much territory to the practical and frankly evil nature of the republican campaigns.

Fire needs to be fought with fire... because time and resources isn't on our side for us to win over all the stupid undecided apathetic people with well meaning and reasoned words...

Amen. The fact that a conservative critisizes someone for presenting "half truths" is laughable.

 

[Alcibiades]

America needs more loud mouted 'fat fucks' like MM, not less.

There's no doubt the common denominator is just plain stupid, and it doesn't help it when liberals try to engage in a campaign that concedes so much territory to the practical and frankly evil nature of the republican campaigns.

Fire needs to be fought with fire... because time and resources isn't on our side for us to win over all the stupid undecided apathetic people with well meaning and reasoned words...

well, you do have Ann Coulter on the right...

say what you want about her, she's not afraid to of getting booed...

 

[etiolate]

I'm not going to provide "quotes" persay, but I do recall:

Limbaugh saying that drug abusers need to be deported.

O' Riley saying that all Rap/Hip-Hop is mysogonistic and promotes abuse twards women.

Anne Coulter calling Liberals treasonists.

I'm sure Sean Hannity has said some stupid shit as well, but I pride myself in not watching enough of that garbage to let it settle in my brain.

Shit, if you need specific examples to verify that Conservatives in the media are asswipes then you must be at home to a serious mental deficiency, or you don't own a TV.

Point is, if "talking down," means being intelligent and rational then we as a nation do indeed have a bigger problem than I initially thought.

Okay, that's sort of the idea. 'Talking down to' someone isn't just what you say, but how you say it. It also involves being dismissive. The Coulter quote is dismissive to opposing ideas, but I don't know about the others really having that sentiment. The one problem with your examples though is most of these people equare to an Al Sharpton type, but not a Michael Moore. Sharpton and Rush preach to the choir. (cliche get) They are also politic-centric. Moore is in a different realm of media and culture. Most people don't go to a theatre or watch comedy central to hear politics.

Both are lies, but hey, if you yell something loud enough, and long enough it becomes truth. Look at the number of people that still belive in creationisim.

Ok this is very dismissive.

Jon Stewart? I saw the Daily Show the Wednesday after the election, and I don't recall any such comments, nor did they pull any punches with their usual shtick. I don't think Stewart is at all apologetic for his views, nor for his criticism of the media. Not that he should be...

Oh I don't know if the tone was apolagetic, but more a revelation to himself. The quote may have been part of the "is this because we control the TV and this is their way of getting back at us?" but I'm not sure. I can't find that whole quote, just parts of it.