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[Ass of Can Whooping]

This is basically saying AMC G-wagon and A-Class are not both cars since one is an SUV and one is a sedan.

Bruh don't tell us we're arguing in bad faith when you're still running with tripe like this

 

[Three]

Switch is a console, Playstation is a console, and Xbox Series is console. They are the same market, and you can't exclude one versus the other based on performance or price characteristics.

Even the EC did this with vans when suggesting remedies.

 

[akimbo009]

Bruh don't tell us we're arguing in bad faith when you're still running with tripe like this

So to be clear, my analogy aside, you think the Switch is not console?

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

So to be clear, my analogy aside, you think the Switch is not console?

Holy shit are you even reading lmao

 

[akimbo009]

Holy shit are you even reading lmao

Are you even answering? The contention by the FTC is that Xbox and Playstation are in a class of their own. I contend they are not - and my "poor" analogy aside I don't think it's exclusionary to the market space despite their position.

So I am asking, do you agree with their position that Switch is in a different "market segment"?

 

[Banjo64]

Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

So I am asking, do you agree with their position that Switch is in a different "market segment"?

Yup

 

[akimbo009]

Yup

Why? Genuninely curious why you think Nintendo is not considered part of the broader console market - what's the distinction?

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Why? Genuninely curious why you think Nintendo is not considered part of the broader console market - what's the distinction?

No one has said Nintendo isn't considered part of the broader console market

 

[Banjo64]

Are you even answering? The contention by the FTC is that Xbox and Playstation are in a class of their own. I contend they are not - and my "poor" analogy aside I don't think it's exclusionary to the market space despite their position.

So I am asking, do you agree with their position that Switch is in a different "market segment"?

I've posted this before, but Microsoft themselves submitted documentation to the CMA that supported this assertion.

The CMA, FTC, EU and Microsoft (internally) all support this stance (because it's based in reality).

 

[akimbo009]

No one has said Nintendo isn't considered part of the broader console market

The FTC did, as part of their complaint:

Microsoft and Sony control the market for high-performance video game consoles.

They then proceed to explain why they think Nintendo is not in the same market - because price and performance. I think that's not really appropriate but Nintendo can at any time launch a higher performance console or whatever - but I don't even know what a "high-performance video game console" market is. That's my contention, you agree with their position, so I am asking why you think that's correct.

 

[DeepEnigma]

The FTC did, as part of their complaint:

Microsoft and Sony control the market for high-performance video game consoles.

We are done here.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

The FTC did, as part of their complaint:

Microsoft and Sony control the market for high-performance video game consoles.

They then proceed to explain why they think Nintendo is not in the same market - because price and performance. I think that's not really appropriate but Nintendo can at any time launch a higher performance console or whatever - but I don't even know what a "high-performance video game console" market is. That's my contention, you agree with their position, so I am asking why you think that's correct.

They're talking about the high performance market, not the broader market. It's in black and white

 

[Three]

Why? Genuninely curious why you think Nintendo is not considered part of the broader console market - what's the distinction?

A van is considered a vechile, can it carry people? It's main submarket isn't about high performance. Do you consider it part of the broader vehicle market though?

Answer these then realise that the EC considered vans a separate market in previous cases.

 

[akimbo009]

We are done here.

Just cause FTC asserts a position doesn't make it fact. That's why we have things like trials.

They're talking about the high performance market, not the broader market. It's in black and white

Is the Xbox Series S a performance console? If the Series X Plus launched tomorrow would the Series X no longer be in the segment? I'm curious how you are drawing a distinction - cause I for one don't know what this but you're "black and white" so spell it out. What's the "teraflops required to be a high performance console" or whatever.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Just cause FTC asserts a position doesn't make it fact. That's why we have things like trials.

The entire industry agrees with that fact, not just the FTC.

Even Nintendo will tell you they are not in the high performance arms race.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Just cause FTC asserts a position doesn't make it fact. That's why we have things like trials.



Is the Xbox Series S a performance console? If the Series X Plus launched tomorrow would the Series X no longer be in the segment? I'm curious how you are drawing a distinction - cause I for one don't know what this but you're "black and white" so spell it out. What's the "teraflops required to be a high performance console" or whatever.

The PS4 and Xbox One are no longer the high performance consoles. That answer all your questions?

 

[akimbo009]

A van is considered a vechile, can it carry people? It's main submarket isn't about high performance. Do you consider it part of the broader vehicle market though?

Answer these then realise that the EC considered vans a separate market in previous cases.

The van debate around MB/Dodge (I assume the sprinter market is what you're talking about) did show they owned a huge % of the the commercial van space (mostly in Europe, not the US) - and with that specific segment concessions were made - but that was not at the exclusion of other segments. The argument was never that other car companies weren't in the market overall. If I recall, it was only a monetary concession and branding concession (change branding after X years, etc) not that it was a sole reason the merger/divestiture would be blocked nor that led a wider industry lack of competitiveness.

I think the best corollary is COD in this example (e.g. FPS shooter space) not the consoles themselves.

 

[akimbo009]

The PS4 and Xbox One are no longer the high performance consoles. That answer all your questions?

So the market space is defined when those two companies launch the next generation? That seems like a thin argument - usually the market defines itself not the companies operating the market.

The entire industry agrees with that fact, not just the FTC.

Even Nintendo will tell you they are not in the high performance arms race.

They may not be in the arms race, but they aren't in the "don't play X games" race. Any game can be built on it - with compromises - but it's not exclusionary unless the publisher/developer chooses not to do it.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

So the market space is defined when those two companies launch the next generation? That seems like a thin argument - usually the market defines itself not the companies operating the market.

The market doesn't exist without those two companies

 

[Banjo64]

Holy shit are you even reading lmao

 

[GHG]

Why am I reading some retarded shit about cars in this thread? This is up there with the house of fire analogies of yore.

 

[akimbo009]

The market doesn't exist without those two companies

Has a "Next generation doesn't start until we say so" Sony vibes....

 

[DeepEnigma]

Why am I reading some retarded shit about cars in this thread? This is up there with the house of fire analogies of yore.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Has a "Next generation doesn't start until we say so" Sony vibes....

Damn straight

 

[Banjo64]

Found the Switch.

 

[Three]

The van debate around MB/Dodge (I assume the sprinter market is what you're talking about) did show they owned a huge % of the the commercial van space (mostly in Europe, not the US) - and with that specific segment concessions were made - but that was not at the exclusion of other segments. The argument was never that other car companies weren't in the market overall. If I recall, it was only a monetary concession and branding concession (change branding after X years, etc) not that it was a sole reason the merger/divestiture would be blocked nor that led a wider industry lack of competitiveness.

I think the best corollary is COD in this example (e.g. FPS shooter space) not the consoles themselves.

Yeah, I'm referring to Stellantis. I'm not sure what you mean by exclusion of other segments. Clearly the point of contention was the harm it may have caused with a particular submarket of vehicles. i.e. vans.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Why am I reading some retarded shit about cars in this thread? This is up there with the house of fire analogies of yore.

Think about it like this - your car is 25 degrees inside, with a fan blowing air outside through a window. The entire inside of your car now erupts into a massive fire. That fan is now blowing 100 degrees air out the window. Does that mean that the inside of your car is now actually cooler than it was before it was on fire?

 

[Banjo64]

Think about it like this - your car is 25 degrees inside, with a fan blowing air outside through a window. The entire inside of your car now erupts into a massive fire. That fan is now blowing 100 degrees air out the window. Does that mean that the inside of your car is now actually cooler than it was before it was on fire?

Scenes when Microsoft quote your post in their official bundle.

 

[GHG]

Think about it like this - your car is 25 degrees inside, with a fan blowing air outside through a window. The entire inside of your car now erupts into a massive fire. That fan is now blowing 100 degrees air out the window. Does that mean that the inside of your car is now actually cooler than it was before it was on fire?

But wait, before we answer such a question we must first ask ourselves, is a car is a car is a car?

 

[PhaseJump]

Has a "Next generation doesn't start until we say so" Sony vibes....

More like: "Next generation doesn't start until our industry standard contemporary 3rd party game engines and development tools are too advanced or taxing to run well on ancient shit hardware limits that Nintendo likes to focus on while not competing in high performance console market." vibes.

 

[akimbo009]

Yeah, I'm referring to Stellantis. I'm not sure what you mean by exclusion of other segments. Clearly the point of contention was the harm it may have caused with a particular submarket of vehicles. i.e. vans.

Just saying that once the remediation and concession was made there - within context of that sub-market - the broader issue was resolve but the "whole of the industry is at risk". It also didn't invent a specific sub-market out of thin air. Clearly my analogy isn't conveying my point so this is going OT - but the premise that there's a "high performance market" which now has exclusionary performance characteristics that prevent developers from publishing on "non high-performance consoles" is a little hard to reason about (since games aren't build that way).

 

[DeepEnigma]

But wait, before we answer such a question we must first ask ourselves, is a car is a car is a car?

It's a bus.

 

[PhaseJump]

But wait, before we answer such a question we must first ask ourselves, is a car is a car is a car?

 

[akimbo009]

More like: "Next generation doesn't start until our industry standard contemporary 3rd party game engines and development tools are too advanced or taxing to run well on ancient shit hardware limits that Nintendo likes to focus on while not competing in high performance console market." vibes.

So...

 

[DarkMage619]

Is the Xbox Series S a performance console? If the Series X Plus launched tomorrow would the Series X no longer be in the segment? I'm curious how you are drawing a distinction - cause I for one don't know what this but you're "black and white" so spell it out. What's the "teraflops required to be a high performance console" or whatever.

You'll never get a serious answers to this questions because many here argued strenuously that the XSS was holding back gaming. Why would a fellow 'high performance' console hold back anything? Why was the XSS being compared quite frequently to the Switch until suddenly after the FTC's comments did it a become high end device.

This all falls in the ridiculous notion that Xbox tends to lose no matter what argument is made. XSS released to cater to casuals and people who don't care about performance? The XSS is low end console holding back the generation!

FTC claims Switch has a monopoly on low performance? XSS is now a high performance device!

Xbox is third in consoles! FTC claims Nintendo isn't a competitor in video games. Xbox only competes with Sony now, is borderline a monopoly and should not be allowed to buy Activision!

Game pass is a total failure and is ruining the gaming industry! Oh it's also a leading game subscription service that no one can compete with and is also a borderline monopoly as well. It is also in a market alone yet negatively affects separate markets and on and on.

These contradictory arguments will continue to pop up and all we can do is wait to see how it all pans out. MS has to respond to the FTC before this Thursday. Let's see what they say.

 

[Topher]

Think about it like this - your car is 25 degrees inside, with a fan blowing air outside through a window. The entire inside of your car now erupts into a massive fire. That fan is now blowing 100 degrees air out the window. Does that mean that the inside of your car is now actually cooler than it was before it was on fire?

I'm glad I'm not the only one reminded of MrFunSocks when it comes to this absurd Nintendo discussion.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

You'll never get a serious answers to this questions because many here argued strenuously that the XSS was holding back gaming. Why would a fellow 'high performance' console hold back anything? Why was the XSS being compared quite frequently to the Switch until suddenly after the FTC's comments did it a become high end device.

This all falls in the ridiculous notion that Xbox tends to lose no matter what argument is made. XSS released to cater to casuals and people who don't care about performance? The XSS is low end console holding back the generation!

FTC claims Switch has a monopoly on low performance? XSS is now a high performance device!

Xbox is third in consoles! FTC claims Nintendo isn't a competitor in video games. Xbox only competes with Sony now, is borderline a monopoly and should not be allowed to buy Activision!

Game pass is a total failure and is ruining the gaming industry! Oh it's also a leading game subscription service that no one can compete with and is also a borderline monopoly as well. It is also in a market alone yet negatively affects separate markets and on and on.

These contradictory arguments will continue to pop up and all we can do is wait to see how it all pans out. MS has to respond to the FTC before this Thursday. Let's see what they say.

When DarkMage gets told the S is holding back gaming

 

[Kagey K]

You'll never get a serious answers to this questions because many here argued strenuously that the XSS was holding back gaming. Why would a fellow 'high performance' console hold back anything? Why was the XSS being compared quite frequently to the Switch until suddenly after the FTC's comments did it a become high end device.

This all falls in the ridiculous notion that Xbox tends to lose no matter what argument is made. XSS released to cater to casuals and people who don't care about performance? The XSS is low end console holding back the generation!

FTC claims Switch has a monopoly on low performance? XSS is now a high performance device!

Xbox is third in consoles! FTC claims Nintendo isn't a competitor in video games. Xbox only competes with Sony now, is borderline a monopoly and should not be allowed to buy Activision!

Game pass is a total failure and is ruining the gaming industry! Oh it's also a leading game subscription service that no one can compete with and is also a borderline monopoly as well. It is also in a market alone yet negatively affects separate markets and on and on.

These contradictory arguments will continue to pop up and all we can do is wait to see how it all pans out. MS has to respond to the FTC before this Thursday. Let's see what they say.

The FTC also claims there is 4 big publishers, but congress seems to identify 14.

Top companies on notice: The letter will be sent to Activision Blizzard, Electronic Arts, Epic, Innersloth, Microsoft, PUBG Corp, Riot Games, Roblox, Sony, Square, Take-Two Interactive, Tencent, Ubisoft and Valve.

https://www.axios.com/2022/12/15/congress-trahan-porter-wyden-games-extremism

 

[DeepEnigma]

The FTC also claims there is 4 big publishers, but congress seems to identify 14.

Top companies on notice: The letter will be sent to Activision Blizzard, Electronic Arts, Epic, Innersloth, Microsoft, PUBG Corp, Riot Games, Roblox, Sony, Square, Take-Two Interactive, Tencent, Ubisoft and Valve.

https://www.axios.com/2022/12/15/congress-trahan-porter-wyden-games-extremism

Good. Expand the "hands off" then.

 

[PhaseJump]

The FTC also claims there is 4 big publishers, but congress seems to identify 14.

Top companies on notice: The letter will be sent to Activision Blizzard, Electronic Arts, Epic, Innersloth, Microsoft, PUBG Corp, Riot Games, Roblox, Sony, Square, Take-Two Interactive, Tencent, Ubisoft and Valve.

https://www.axios.com/2022/12/15/congress-trahan-porter-wyden-games-extremism

Sega Sammy is clearly too small to matter. Time to make your move, Phil.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

The FTC also claims there is 4 big publishers, but congress seems to identify 14.

Top companies on notice: The letter will be sent to Activision Blizzard, Electronic Arts, Epic, Innersloth, Microsoft, PUBG Corp, Riot Games, Roblox, Sony, Square, Take-Two Interactive, Tencent, Ubisoft and Valve.

https://www.axios.com/2022/12/15/congress-trahan-porter-wyden-games-extremism

Yeah don't think they're identifying big publishers there

 

[DarkMage619]

When DarkMage gets told the S is holding back gaming

Oh no! It's totally high performance bro! No difference between it and PS5 at all. It was always that way and I totally imagined the commentary about it 'ruining' gaming.

 

[Banjo64]

You'll never get a serious answers to this questions because many here argued strenuously that the XSS was holding back gaming.

But I did answer you seriously the last time this came up by saying the Series S is 7-8 times more powerful than the Switch (4.2TF vs 470GF undocked, 780GF docked) whilst effectively targeting the same resolution. I also highlighted that Microsoft's own launch trailer highlighted next gen performance, 120fps, directx raytracing, VRS, VRR & 1440p resolutions.

Rather than engage in good faith you just told me to spread the word because other posters like to slate it.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Oh no! It's totally high performance bro! No difference between it and PS5 at all. It was always that way and I totally imagined the commentary about it 'ruining' gaming.

You know, I'm quite the therapist myself. I could help you. I'll even make the sessions ear reading friendly.

 

[Kagey K]

Sega Sammy is clearly too small to matter. Time to make your move, Phil.

Some other big names missing as well. Capcom, Namco, Devolver, etc.

 

[Salty Popsicle]

Everyone is pinning their hopes on Starfield, but I'm telling you it's going to be a disappointment. It was delayed for a reason. Not saying it'll be a bad game, but I don't see it pushing 20 million units.

Starfield was delayed because Bethesda no longer feels the financial pressure of having to push out an un-optimized game full of bugs to maximize sales during the Holiday spending season. Having Microsoft backing means Bethesda can release their games in the Spring and Summer months and not have to worry about a sales quota or going out of business.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Starfield was delayed because Bethesda no longer feels the financial pressure of having to push out an un-optimized game full of bugs to maximize sales during the Holiday spending season. Having Microsoft backing means Bethesda can release their games in the Spring and Summer months and not have to worry about a sales quota or going out of business.

But what about the un-optimized and full of bugs part? You seemed to leave that one out of the second part.

I highly doubt Bethesda was worried about going out of business as the excuse. Highly doubt.

 

[Salty Popsicle]

But what about the un-optimized and full of bugs part? You seemed to leave that one out of the second part.

Their prior games including Fallout 3, Skyrim, and Fallout 4 all were under immense pressure to release during the Holiday season, even if it meant the polishing phase was not yet completed. Releasing during the Holiday's is no longer a concern under Microsoft stewardship, releasing a quality title that is hopefully mostly bug-free is all that matters now. A delay into Spring/Summer 2023 is a good sign.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Their prior games including Fallout 3, Skyrim, and Fallout 4 all were under immense pressure to release during the Holiday season, even if it meant the polishing phase was not yet completed. Releasing during the Holiday's is no longer a concern under Microsoft stewardship, releasing a quality title that is hopefully mostly bug-free is all that matters now. A delay into Spring/Summer 2023 is a good sign.

I would not hold my breath, but would be pleasantly surprised and happy.