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[DeltaPolarBear]

The fact the all previous discussions about the actual game never lasted more than one or two pages on a good day while this one about trolling the XBOX Series S is 6 pages and counting should tell you all that there is to know about the current state of this section.

Well it is still currently an accidental exclusive, timed or not. So people who are playing are not posting. And people who can't play because they are on Xbox have nothing to talk about except here.

 

[lostinblue]

it not about why you'd do that. I just wanted to show at the time that the whole data streaming thing was nonsense.

That answers it You were testing. Great personality trait.

 

[Riky]

the frame drops were due to CPU limitations, the Series X has objectively the better CPU... so what does that say about Epic?

also no, the differences weren't bigger

If we look at the metrics for Fortnite running on UE5 the Series X version comes out on top anyway and that's an actual game.

 

[unlurkified]

Finally getting a steady stream of current-gen only titles and the S is already hamstringing this gen, wow. Whoever's idea the S was should get Mattricked.

 

[Helghan]

Since they are fixing this I'm wondering if I should wait for it to launch on Game Pass or buy it on my macbook. I don't have a PC so it's Xbox or Mac. And in 99% of the cases Xbox, but for some reason they also ported it to mac, so why not.

 

[Sentenza]

Since they are fixing this I'm wondering if I should wait for it to launch on Game Pass

I mean, if you are willing to wait 3-to-5 years for it, sure, wait as much as you want.
Larian is "notorious" for being incredibly sparse with discounts even on PC, let alone expecting a "Gamepass release" any time soon from them.
It took DOS 2 more than 2 years after its original release in 2017 (on top of a year of Early Access) to see its first discount of 40% on the full price.

 

[systemr123]

Since they are fixing this I'm wondering if I should wait for it to launch on Game Pass or buy it on my macbook. I don't have a PC so it's Xbox or Mac. And in 99% of the cases Xbox, but for some reason they also ported it to mac, so why not.

Seems devs finally start to notice Mac which is very welcome I'd say. With the new conversion(test) tools etc that Apple is developing now the future for games on Macs look bright.

It's always nice to have a bit more choice and competition . Also to all the people saying, yes but this game runs on Mac like a gtx950 forget about 1 small detail. The demos giving are just direct translations from dx12 to something mac understands, and is by no way optimized in any shape or form.

Now I'm not saying you'll get 4090 graphics on an M2 chip e.g. but if game studios take the effort to correctly convert their games to work on Mac, which is easier now than ever before, they can run quite well probably, with a much lower wattage for the whole machine vs the 4090 alone.

 

[Sentenza]

Larian has been making Mac versions of their games for years, by the way.

 

[Duchess]

Finally getting a steady stream of current-gen only titles and the S is already hamstringing Xbox, wow.

FTFY.

 

[01011001]

Finally getting a steady stream of current-gen only titles and the S is already hamstringing this gen, wow. Whoever's idea the S was should get Mattricked.

game devs suck these days, what can you do

 

[K2D]

Gee, IGN, it's almost like those of us with common sense and critical thinking skills saw this coming two and a half years ago. You can't just release a console with significantly less power and try to say it's "the same" just because it has the same CPU. And then to dictate feature parity on developers? Lunacy.

As games began ditching cross-gen, this issue was inevitable. While devs can just keep pushing PS5 up to its maximum abilities, the Series X is held back by this feature parity clause.

All the people who kept arguing that the Series S wouldn't be a problem and would just be "scalable like PCs" need a big fat plate of humble pie. This is going to be the first example of many.

Buying Bethesda was the only way MS would get them develop Starfield and ESVI for the Xbox series.

 

[Topher]

Buying Bethesda was the only way MS would get them develop Starfield and ESVI for the Xbox series.

Microsoft was scared that Bethesda would make more deals with Sony for timed exclusives, but it was never said those games would never be developed for Xbox outside of acquisition.

 

[The Inventor]

Pure rage is what I feel. The only game I've been waiting for ages and this stupid MS with its BS...

 

[Dice]

Bethesda must be like "And we are so excited to provide our modding community with everything they need to add in what we couldn't get to work on Series S"

 

[lostinblue]

Pure rage is what I feel. The only game I've been waiting for ages and this stupid MS with its BS...

tbh, I get the feeling that's not the full picture. Look at the new Zelda, it was clearly completed for a while and just being polished for a few months, that's happening with a few software titles and I think it is clever compared to releasing a game with a treasure chest of bugs.

What I mean is, yeah, this sucks. But I don't believe they're stuck with Series S, they're probably improving experience in every console/platform. Starfield as well, it's certainly almost done, old Bethesda would have released it already and then rolled with it.

We're of course trying to look at the bright side of things here.

 

[Freeman76]

Why is it MS will allow Halo out the gate with no co-op, no firefight, pretty much barebones, and add it all later, but with a huge game like BG3 they wont allow the same? Stupid decision that hands Sony an 'almost' exclusive for 6 months or more on one of the biggest rpgs in years. Dumbest shit they've done in a while

 

[Panajev2001a]

tbh, I get the feeling that's not the full picture. Look at the new Zelda, it was clearly completed for a while and just being polished for a few months, that's happening with a few software titles and I think it is clever compared to releasing a game with a treasure chest of bugs.

What I mean is, yeah, this sucks. But I don't believe they're stuck with Series S, they're probably improving experience in every console/platform. Starfield as well, it's certainly almost done, old Bethesda would have released it already and then rolled with it.

We're of course trying to look at the bright side of things here.

What does Starfield have anything to do in this topic beyond a bit of bright side of things / damage control lite ?

 

[Skifi28]

 

[ZehDon]

Why is it MS will allow Halo out the gate with no co-op, no firefight, pretty much barebones, and add it all later, but with a huge game like BG3 they wont allow the same? Stupid decision that hands Sony an 'almost' exclusive for 6 months or more on one of the biggest rpgs in years. Dumbest shit they've done in a while

Because Halo lacked all of those features for all hardware, meaning it had pairty. BG3 works just fine on the XSX, by accounts, and its the XSS that is having issues. Which means there isn't parity. The dev could hold back the split screen feature from the Xbox version, but it's clearly important enough to them that they consider the game unfinished without it. Frankly, I support the move. Developers shouldn't ship games until they're finished. Microsoft wants the XSS supported - this is the reality of that.

 

[lostinblue]

What does Starfield have anything to do in this topic beyond a bit of bright side of things / damage control lite ?

Zelda also has nothing to do with it.

What I mean is that they're big games, with a lot of variables and optimizations. Conventionally Baldur's Gate will perhaps sell better if released by the end of the year than if it was released now, and the extra polish might create better initial sales.

But that's just me, as you say I was looking at the bright side of things, I like big games to come out in a mature state, and hope that's the case for Baldur's Gate 3, I'm thinking this stupid Xbox Series S conundrum with a feature they could either skip or implement later is... quite idiotic, but if the game could benefit from a bit of extra polish across all platforms then it's also an opportunity.

I doubt optimizing for Xbox Series S is all they're doing in this time, that was all I was saying.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Zelda also has nothing to do with it.

What I mean is that they're big games, with a lot of variables and optimizations. Conventionally Baldur's Gate will perhaps sell better if released by the end of the year than if it was released now, and the extra polish might create better initial sales.

But that's just me, as you say I was looking at the bright side of things, I like big games to come out in a mature state, and hope that's the case for Baldur's Gate 3, I'm thinking this stupid Xbox Series S conundrum with a feature they could either skip or implement later is... quite idiotic, but if the game could benefit from a bit of extra polish across all platforms then it's also an opportunity.

I doubt optimizing for Xbox Series S is all they're doing in this time, that was all I was saying.

So a feature the developer wants to have works everywhere but the XSS and this feature cannot be disabled just for the XSS because MS answered the fears of fragmenting the userbase because of the HW divide with a mandate that developers must keep feature parity across XSX and XSS… the problem is not the XSS and/or MS, but the developer's… .

 

[squidilix]

What? So you tell me, even if Microsoft Engineers is helping Larian since June, the game is probably release on 2024 on Xbox?

 

[Ozzy Onya A2Z]

So a feature the developer wants to have works everywhere but the XSS and this feature cannot be disabled just for the XSS because MS answered the fears of fragmenting the userbase because of the HW divide with a mandate that developers must keep feature parity across XSX and XSS… the problem is not the XSS and/or MS, but the developer's… .

Yeah how dare they support their platforms and developers by putting the work in for Xbox gamers.

 

[CanYouFlyBobby?]

"Xbox Series S just works like X but with downscaled graphics bro"

 

[lostinblue]

So a feature the developer wants to have works everywhere but the XSS and this feature cannot be disabled just for the XSS because MS answered the fears of fragmenting the userbase because of the HW divide with a mandate that developers must keep feature parity across XSX and XSS… the problem is not the XSS and/or MS, but the developer's… .

I don't think that was my point...

 

[Hudo]

Ice team helps devs on Sony machines all the time .. I don't see the big deal .

It's a big deal if you want to fight in the console wars.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

So a feature the developer wants to have works everywhere but the XSS and this feature cannot be disabled just for the XSS because MS answered the fears of fragmenting the userbase because of the HW divide with a mandate that developers must keep feature parity across XSX and XSS… the problem is not the XSS and/or MS, but the developer's… .

You can believe that all you want. But blaming developers won't solve your problem, even if you can lie to yourself that your company can do no wrong and that someone else is to blame for your woes.

Xbox claimed that Series S is only different from Series X in resolution. That is a lie. You can pretend that isn't a lie if you want, but pretending wouldn't make it real.

 

[lostinblue]

Xbox claimed that Series S is only different from Series X in resolution. That is a lie. You can pretend that isn't a lie if you want, but pretending wouldn't make it real.

It's not true with that memory setup, no.

They should have gone for 10 GB main pool, plus 2 extra GB.

That or make it unified 12 GB, but they probably couldn't because of the way they split it on Xbox Series X (10 GB+6GB ).

Separate memory pools are a mistake this gen unless you have all the RAM you need for graphics and then throw some DDR4/DDR5 for OS/low latency cpu cache compared to GDDR6.

But it could be mostly the same as it's big brethren in a lot of cases, specially if the structure is there. This seems like a case where even if they did everything "right" from the ground up they'd still be struggling to make it fit and run properly, it's a hellish scenario example.

 

[Mokus]

Makes me curious what exactly are they doing. Are these the same engineers who helped Bethesda with Starfield?

 

[Panajev2001a]

Yeah how dare they support their platforms and developers by putting the work in for Xbox gamers.

Ah The "put in the work" by creating a problem for your interests and forcing others to make it work… . You will die on the hill that everything is fine with the XSS strategy eh? The only better thing would be one day Spencer to denounce it and kill it and see people having to switch narrative .

 

[Panajev2001a]

You can believe that all you want. But blaming developers won't solve your problem, even if you can lie to yourself that your company can do no wrong and that someone else is to blame for your woes.

Xbox claimed that Series S is only different from Series X in resolution. That is a lie. You can pretend that isn't a lie if you want, but pretending wouldn't make it real.

I agree, that was the point I was trying to make .

 

[Ozzy Onya A2Z]

Ah The "put in the work" by creating a problem for your interests and forcing others to make it work… . You will die on the hill that everything is fine with the XSS strategy eh? The only better thing would be one day Spencer to denounce it and kill it and see people having to switch narrative .

Why do I have to die on a hill? PCs support all sorts of hardware, even a Switch or PS5 have versions and perf differences devs have to account for.

Same goes for PS4 vs PS5 etc. It's great support is being provided. I don't happen to agree that XS is inherently a problem, it requires more dev work but it's for a market differentiator and price point. Any project has multiple targets to hit and all devs weigh up their options on deliverables, XS is really no different in the broad sense.

Edit: the only part I really have issue with is not having dev parity to ease that workload e.g. memory the same between S/X and CPU would have been nice.

 

[PaintTinJr]

You can believe that all you want. But blaming developers won't solve your problem, even if you can lie to yourself that your company can do no wrong and that someone else is to blame for your woes.

Xbox claimed that Series S is only different from Series X in resolution. That is a lie. You can pretend that isn't a lie if you want, but pretending wouldn't make it real.

I completely agree with your point, but in the context of this game split-screen feature on XsS I actually think the native resolution target for the XsS is the problem rather than scalable performance of a turn-based game.

Going by the gameplay footage and looking at the HUD/UI it seems to be very busy. Being able to do co-op - going by the game running om the steam deck as Lowest Common Denominator - probably means at 1280x800(720p), the XsS probably needs to be able to output at 1440p native to let the menus look readable and the game not look cluttered on a 4K panel, which shouldn't be a problem for the single player at 30fps with visuals scaled back, but the split-screen at that resolution is probably way too tight on RAM bandwidth and actual RAM, and too tight on VRAM bandwidth and VRAM, and too tight on inefficiency on GPU processing by draw call switching - which is made so much worse with a simple split-screen implementation that is drawing the split screens workloads one after the other before the back-buffer being switch to be displayed.

 

[Darkness_Arises]

Why do I have to die on a hill? PCs support all sorts of hardware, even a Switch or PS5 have versions and perf differences devs have to account for.

Same goes for PS4 vs PS5 etc. It's great support is being provided. I don't happen to agree that XS is inherently a problem, it requires more dev work but it's for a market differentiator and price point. Any project has multiple targets to hit and all devs weigh up their options on deliverables, XS is really no different in the broad sense.

Edit: the only part I really have issue with is not having dev parity to ease that workload e.g. memory the same between S/X and CPU would have been nice.

Can we stop with the PC false equivalences? PC doesn't support jackshit. If there is a game that does not launch on my PC (let us say hypothetically it has a 4090) , I can either scour the forums for a problem to my solution or initiate a refund with Steam and forget about playing the game until the issue is sorted. Similarly if I have a gimped PC with series S specs, I can dial all the sliders back and pray for a playable experience. If not I can initiate a refund and go back to playing Vampire Surviors. PC players aren't owed shit.

On the other hand, a game launching on the series S should be playable from start to end at a stable-ish framerate without too many compromises. If I cannot ensure that as a dev, I cannot release the game period, whereas a PC game can be released with the implicit understanding that it may be a buggy stutterfest, even on setups that exceed the minimum specs.

 

[Edgelord79]

Gotta admit, looks like there are now a large contingent of developers bringing up the S as an anvil of sorts. I mean, they can't all be lying.

It's clearly not the developers fault and maybe it's time to have different requirements between the S and X.

 

[Ozzy Onya A2Z]

Can we stop with the PC false equivalences? PC doesn't support jackshit. If there is a game that does not launch on my PC (let us say hypothetically it has a 4090) , I can either scour the forums for a problem to my solution or initiate a refund with Steam and forget about playing the game until the issue is sorted. Similarly if I have a gimped PC with series S specs, I can dial all the sliders back and pray for a playable experience. If not I can initiate a refund and go back to playing Vampire Surviors. PC players aren't owed shit.

On the other hand, a game launching on the series S should be playable from start to end at a stable-ish framerate without too many compromises. If I cannot ensure that as a dev, I cannot release the game period, whereas a PC game can be released with the implicit understanding that it may be a buggy stutterfest, even on setups that exceed the minimum specs.

It's like you completely wash over the history of PC games and their wide margin for performance variances, supported devices etc.

Obviously you've never seen a dev or test lab for gaming development and what deployment targets entail with these projects.

 

[ReBurn]

Gotta admit, looks like there are now a large contingent of developers bringing up the S as an anvil of sorts. I mean, they can't all be lying.

It's clearly not the developers fault and maybe it's time to have different requirements between the S and X.

How large is the contingent? How many complaints from developers are we up to?

 

[Topher]

How large is the contingent? How many complaints from developers are we up to?

We have the few who have been vocal about it as in the Engadget article and then a larger contingent that isn't so willing to run out to twitter and complain about it. DF has talked about the growing number of devs who have been asking Microsoft to lighten up on XSS requirements. Exactly how large, I don't think we know.

 

[ReBurn]

We have the few who have been vocal about it as in the Engadget article and then a larger contingent that isn't so willing to run out to twitter and complain about it. DF has talked about the growing number of devs who have been asking Microsoft to lighten up on XSS requirements. Exactly how large, I don't think we know.

I can see there being a silent group of folks who are frustrated with it. I just wasn't sure how many had spoken out. The more that do hopefully Microsoft sees the impact of the policy.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Why do I have to die on a hill? PCs support all sorts of hardware, even a Switch or PS5 have versions and perf differences devs have to account for.

Talking about Xbox Series S and Brexit always feels at times a bit familiar…

Same goes for PS4 vs PS5 etc. It's great support is being provided. I don't happen to agree that XS is inherently a problem, it requires more dev work but it's for a market differentiator and price point. Any project has multiple targets to hit and all devs weigh up their options on deliverables, XS is really no different in the broad sense.

XSS is no different than PS4 and PS5 is another example of that. It ignores tiny teeny details such as Sony allowing exclusive PS5 software while MS does not allow nor encourages XSX only software.

You are taking a very much MS tinted approach to the issue (we get it that MS had a strategy, but I fail to see why it is others' problem to make it a successful one despite its problems), it is not a problem because MS pitched as not being one, because it is their strategy. "It [only] requires more dev work [and it is an albatross to XSX's neck because games do not get designed around the most powerful HW and scaled down when parity is mandatory]"… all evidence that it has been a problem is shrugged as either being false ("just flick some switches/games are all easily scalable") or blaming the devs ("lazy devs"), or dismissed as non forward looking enough.

 

[Ozzy Onya A2Z]

Talking about Xbox Series S and Brexit always feels at times a bit familiar…


XSS is no different than PS4 and PS5 is another example of that. It ignores tiny teeny details such as Sony allowing exclusive PS5 software while MS does not allow nor encourages XSX only software.

You are taking a very much MS tinted approach to the issue (we get it that MS had a strategy, but I fail to see why it is others' problem to make it a successful one despite its problems), it is not a problem because MS pitched as not being one, because it is their strategy. "It [only] requires more dev work [and it is an albatross to XSX's neck because games do not get designed around the most powerful HW and scaled down when parity is mandatory]"… all evidence that it has been a problem is shrugged as either being false ("just flick some switches/games are all easily scalable") or blaming the devs ("lazy devs"), or dismissed as non forward looking enough.

I fail to see why MS have this sort of gamer mentality block about what they do and how moves carve out their own niches with success and failure.

I do agree some devs dislike it but they're not competing at a platform level.

 

[Panajev2001a]

I fail to see why MS have this sort of gamer mentality block about what they do and how moves carve out their own niches with success and failure.

How does it make PS4 vs PS5 similar to XSS and XSX again? You made this point and just dropped it…

Why should the world care and support the market moves MS does out of principle or relativistic standards?

I do agree some devs dislike it but they're not competing at a platform level.

… and?

 

[Ozzy Onya A2Z]

How does it make PS4 vs PS5 similar to XSS and XSX again? You made this point and just dropped it…

Why should the world care and support the market moves MS does out of principle or relativistic standards?


… and?

There are hundreds of deployment targets across lots of brands, platforms, tech, devices, hardware, settings, drivers, devs, experience etc etc. All of a sudden a couple of more SKUs for Series S is crossing the line now?

 

[OmegaSupreme]

 

[Gojiira]

Microsoft was scared that Bethesda would make more deals with Sony for timed exclusives, but it was never said those games would never be developed for Xbox outside of acquisition.

Not gonna lie this really pisses me off, MS temper tantrum panic buying a publisher when they realised its the only way to secure more exclusives for their platform. I hope Sony buys Capcom,Kadokawa,and Take Two, cancel Xbox versions of already announced games, make GTA 6 exclusive,Elden Ring expansion pc/ps5 only,thats fair trade for MS being petulant little cunts.

 

[lostinblue]

So a feature the developer wants to have works everywhere but the XSS and this feature cannot be disabled just for the XSS because MS answered the fears of fragmenting the userbase because of the HW divide with a mandate that developers must keep feature parity across XSX and XSS… the problem is not the XSS and/or MS, but the developer's… .

Earlier today I hadn't realized the Xbox Series S and X were delayed but not the other versions. Instead I thought it was delayed on all platforms due to XSS. Which is why I was focusing on some bright side that doesn't apply.

So I reiterate, wow, what a clusterfuck this is. Microsoft should have waived the XSS requirement in this case. It's just a feature, the bad publicity for XSS here will be massive and it'll do the opposite of what they want.

Not gonna lie this really pisses me off, MS temper tantrum panic buying a publisher when they realised its the only way to secure more exclusives for their platform. I hope Sony buys Capcom,Kadokawa,and Take Two, cancel Xbox versions of already announced games, make GTA 6 exclusive,Elden Ring expansion pc/ps5 only,thats fair trade for MS being petulant little cunts.

What bothers me the most is that they've been buying some publishers I enjoy and then mismanage them by not managing them at all. If they didn't operate like this, like it or not their consoles would be worth more and more people would be buying them (not to say they aren't selling or that everything is bad).

This makes things hard, if a publisher is bought by Sony or Nintendo I believe their value and output goes up, if it's bought by Microsoft I think their value usually goes down over time, all this because of management or lack thereof.

Microsoft bought and owns a lot of classics I adore. but at the same time I feel they dismantle the talent.

 

[Boots_the_God]

Do people really play these games split screen?

 

[genesisblock]

Do people really play these games split screen?

I can tell you as a first time player of the D&D franchise. Co-op. IS A MUST. While it can work for single-player. It wouldn't be the same.

 

[Boots_the_God]

I can tell you as a first time player of the D&D franchise. Co-op. IS A MUST. While it can work for single-player. It wouldn't be the same.

Ok gotcha. I've never played one so I was curious how big of a deal it was.

 

[Panajev2001a]

There are hundreds of deployment targets across lots of brands, platforms, tech, devices, hardware, settings, drivers, devs, experience etc etc. All of a sudden a couple of more SKUs for Series S is crossing the line now?

… and yet the devs keep telling you it does not work this way for the XSX and XSS consoles just because you also have a PC SKU (let alone how HW support on PC is pretty much hope and let people tune it so it works for them a lot of time ) and here we are where a game is skipping both XSX and XSS for a while because a feature they are not able to cut on the XSS due to MS policies (MS is interested not to concede the fact that their approach is holding them back)…