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[Heisenberg007]

Can’t they just have an info box explaining what you get with each version on the store page that says split-screen isn’t available yet on Series S but it’ll get that with an update later?
I don’t understand the feature parity thing. The Series S version is always inferior anyway in all games.

Yeah, that makes more sense.

But I think it is more of an ego or perception problem for Microsoft. They don't want to "admit" that Series S has inferior versions and future games may have missing features as that'd shake the casual gamers' confidence in the Series S, directly affecting Microsoft's HW sales and revenue.

Furthermore, developers will have less of an incentive to release the split-screen feature in the future as their game would already be on Xbox.

 

[skit_data]

I thought about something the other day:
Is this the third gen in a row Xbox has sort of a tendency of cheaping out on RAM (outside of X1X of course)?
X360 would've had 256 MB had it not been for Epic Games.
X1 had DDR3 rather than PS4s GDDR5.
Series S would probably have benefitted from having 2 GB more.
Series X is a little bit more vague when it comes to potential end impact but seeing how requirements when it comes to video memory keeps creeping up I wouldn't count out 10 GBs being on the chopping block within this generation.

 

[Fuz]

Isn't not having any version at all, like it is right now, much worse than that?

No.

 

[Fess]

Yeah, that makes more sense.

But I think it is more of an ego or perception problem for Microsoft. They don't want to "admit" that Series S has inferior versions and future games may have missing features as that'd shake the casual gamers' confidence in the Series S, directly affecting Microsoft's HW sales and revenue.

Furthermore, developers will have less of an incentive to release the split-screen feature in the future as their game would already be on Xbox.

I don’t see how it’s better to pretend that there are no differences, the differences are there already. Just split them up, they’re already different boxes. And there is no disc version to worry about where people could buy a Series X version by mistake for their Series S. There are no bad consequences as I see it. And I bet most people won’t use split screen anyway so a delay for that reason won’t be seen as more positive than released on time and a split screen added later.

 

[Evil Calvin]

I find those speculation posts funny. You're here saying that might drive people to flock to ps5 and at the same time in the merger thread, the sentiment is that if cod gets added to gamepass, gamers will flood to Xbox .

I'm not saying either is wrong or right, I just think it's amusing to see those absolutely opposite doom scenarios be posted.

Well, that seemed to be before all of the developers complaining about the XS. I don't know. It just is going to get messy.

 

[The Inventor]

Nah, Microsoft sent their engineers there to sabotage the development process so that the game didn't come out at the same time as Starfield.
I mean, have you ever seen two games come out at the same time? It doesn't make any sense!

I hope they beat their devkits to a bloody pulp, what were they thinking??

Spoiler

Mr. Spencer, can i get a controller that doesn't smell like cheese?

Thought and said something similar. This is Starfield 's year.

 

[Heisenberg007]

I don’t see how it’s better to pretend that there are no differences, the differences are there already. Just split them up, they’re already different boxes. And there is no disc version to worry about where people could buy a Series X version by mistake for their Series S. There are no bad consequences as I see it. And I bet most people won’t use split screen anyway so a delay for that reason won’t be seen as more positive than released on time and a split screen added later.

Most casual gamers do not really pay attention to comparison videos and may not realize that Series S has only a 30 FPS option while Series X also offers a 60 FPS option or that Series S has lower quality textures and missing shadows and more LOD pop-ins than Series X.

However, when Microsoft "accepts" an inferior version, this information will become more public and official. I believe Microsoft wants to avoid that scenario - which makes sense from a business POV.

As for your last point, although I agree, I think Microsoft doesn't want the headlines to read that "Baldur's Gate 3's Series S version is missing local co-op because of inferior hardware."

 

[Fess]

However, when Microsoft "accepts" an inferior version, this information will become more public and official. I believe Microsoft wants to avoid that scenario - which makes sense from a business POV.

As for your last point, although I agree, I think Microsoft doesn't want the headlines to read that "Baldur's Gate 3's Series S version is missing local co-op because of inferior hardware."

Losing a generation 4:1 in hardware sales by stubbornly staying on a bad course just to save face doesn’t make sense from my POV.

There is nothing wrong about being humble and admit that you were wrong and then try to correct the problem and do better.

Maybe it’s not the american big corporation way but it is the right way. They need to be flexible and change plan if needed. They’ll ruin the brand if they do nothing.

They should look at Nintendo. WiiU was a failure. 4 years 4 months later they kicked off a new generation with Switch.

 

[twilo99]

 

[MasterCornholio]

Microsoft should just Waiver it.

 

[twilo99]

Yes they should and just add it with an update whenever ready.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Yes they should and just add it with an update whenever ready.

Yep it would be the best thing for consumers. All they have to do is put a disclaimer for the Series S version where they state that it won't be available at launch.

 

[twilo99]

If enough people care about they should just start harassing xbox on social media and see what happens.

Does Phil know about all of this lol

 

[Aguero9320]

It’s a strange situation this one, whatever the technical issues. Microsoft can’t win here from a PR perspective. If it came out at the same time as on PS5 it would get buried by Starfield, and we’d have to eyeroll at Dring tweets saying BG3 sold 10 times as many on PlayStation… if it’s delayed they are getting hammered because of Series S. I definitely wouldn’t be rushing to fix it though if I was Larian.

I am absolutely going to play BG3 (probably on PC) but there’s absolutely no chance I am buying it before Black Friday (even on Xbox if it made it by then) with other things taking my game time. No chance. I’ll ultimately win because I’m fairly sure it will be on sale… I’d have bought it on PC now, but being the filling in a Diablo, Starfield sandwich ends up saving me a bit of money. Apologies to Larian.

 

[Slicker than your average]

If enough people care about they should just start harassing xbox on social media and see what happens.

Does Phil know about all of this lol

The people missing out on this game would rather blame Sony or make up lies that Sony paid the game not to be on Xbox; rather than hold Phil or Xbox accountable.

 

[mckmas8808]

"Xbox Series S just works like X but with downscaled graphics bro"

We all knew that line was a lie!

 

[SegaSnatcher]

Can someone tell me why they gimped the Series S so badly? You are telling me it couldn't have had a 6 Tflop GPU and 12 GB's of ram as fast as Xbox One X and sell for $300 or $349.99 in 2020?

Are their sales any better than what Xbox One was at the same point in time? If not then the Series S was clearly a mistake.

 

[twilo99]

Why is this game DX11? Isn’t that kinda outdated at this point..

 

[foamdino]

Right now, the issue is that BG3 split-screen co-op seemingly requires more than 8GB ram. So of course certain folks say "well it only affects split screen co-op who cares" "works on 99.9% of games, series S isn't an issue" etc.

Now let's think - how many games have been gutted to fit into 8GB of ram which we don't know about? How many systems are left on the cutting room floor after the tech lead has gone to the designer and said "you can have these systems or that other bigger system, but not both - you choose"?

We will probably never find out, but the fact is that for cross-platform games, they need to fit into 8GB of (pretty slow) ram to work across Series S|X and PS5. This will obviously impact the next 5 years of cross-platform games unless the requirements for S|X games to have feature parity are dropped.

Sony first-party games will not be hamstrung like this, but any 3rd-party cross-platform game will be. Exclusive-by-default games may be the outcome of the series S design due to devs not wanting to compromise their designs to fit into such a small amount of ram (BG3 is possibly the first example, but I doubt it will be the last).

 

[Mr Reasonable]

Sony first-party games will not be hamstrung like this, but any 3rd-party cross-platform game will be.

Well, that's a brilliant way of looking at it. Are first party Sony games doing something radically different/better than 3rd party ones indicating that Series S is holding 3rd party games back?

 

[Freelance Yakuza]

Exclusive-by-default games may be the outcome of the series S design due to devs not wanting to compromise their designs to fit into such a small amount of ram (BG3 is possibly the first example, but I doubt it will be the last).

As I've said many times: The Series S would only function in a world where Xbox is the leading platform; otherwise, devs may look at its installed base and do the math to determine if it's worth investing resources to make games function on Series S or if they should just launch on PC/PS5.
MS gambled and lost. Again.

 

[Heisenberg007]

Well, that's a brilliant way of looking at it. Are first party Sony games doing something radically different/better than 3rd party ones indicating that Series S is holding 3rd party games back?

Yeah. There are no multi-console games like:

• FF16 (epic battle scale),
• R&C Rift Apart (60 FPS + RT + high-visual fidelity + universe jumping),
• Horizon Forbidden West (unprecedented visuals in an open-world game and land, air, and underwater traversal)
• Baldur's Gate 3 (super ambitious RPG with tons of agency + 60 FPS + local split screen co-op)

Only PS5 console exclusive games are doing that.

 

[Heisenberg007]

Right now, the issue is that BG3 split-screen co-op seemingly requires more than 8GB ram. So of course certain folks say "well it only affects split screen co-op who cares" "works on 99.9% of games, series S isn't an issue" etc.

Now let's think - how many games have been gutted to fit into 8GB of ram which we don't know about? How many systems are left on the cutting room floor after the tech lead has gone to the designer and said "you can have these systems or that other bigger system, but not both - you choose"?

We will probably never find out, but the fact is that for cross-platform games, they need to fit into 8GB of (pretty slow) ram to work across Series S|X and PS5. This will obviously impact the next 5 years of cross-platform games unless the requirements for S|X games to have feature parity are dropped.

Sony first-party games will not be hamstrung like this, but any 3rd-party cross-platform game will be. Exclusive-by-default games may be the outcome of the series S design due to devs not wanting to compromise their designs to fit into such a small amount of ram (BG3 is possibly the first example, but I doubt it will be the last).

 

[foamdino]

Well, that's a brilliant way of looking at it. Are first party Sony games doing something radically different/better than 3rd party ones indicating that Series S is holding 3rd party games back?

The context of my post was future looking for the current-gen, but then you knew that and decided that it was better to ignore that aspect and concentrate on the last 3 years of games (the majority of which being cross-gen, obviously won't have many issues on Series S). As the gen progresses I guarantee that there will be more games that fully utilise the ram on the PS5 than on the series consoles.

 

[Mr Reasonable]

The context of my post was future looking for the current-gen,

No it wasn't:

Now let's think - how many games have been gutted to fit into 8GB of ram which we don't know about?

But ok!

As the gen progresses I guarantee that there will be more games that fully utilise the ram on the PS5 than on the series consoles.

I guarantee that you're making it up as you go along.

 

[foamdino]

Oh and one last thought on this ram issue.

If next-gen starts in 2028 and there is another 18-24 months of cross-gen titles being released. Then cross-platform games will need to be designed to work in 8Gb of (pretty damn slow) ram until 2030.

Let that sink in.

It's likely that the XboxNext/PS6 will have 32Gb of ram (at least) - yet they will have games designed to fit into just 25% of that. It criminally under-utilises that capabilities of an entire generation of hw because of one silly device.

A very cynical part of me thinks that this is Microsoft's way of competing with Sony - cannot compete by developing and releasing good games, hamstring the generation so that the majority (3rd party) games all look like the same 8Gb gruel.

 

[foamdino]

No it wasn't:

But ok!

I guarantee that you're making it up as you go along.

Selective quoting: "This will obviously impact the next 5 years of cross-platform games unless the requirements for S|X games to have feature parity are dropped." but you know "next 5 years" is not future looking.

 

[Mr Reasonable]

Selective quoting: "This will obviously impact the next 5 years of cross-platform games unless the requirements for S|X games to have feature parity are dropped." but you know "next 5 years" is not future looking.

I don't see how you can make a series of points and then say "ignore all the stuff I said, at the beginning, I was obviously saying something else" when called on it.

 

[Sleepwalker]

They can't just "remove split screen and release it" not only because of microsoft's parity clause but also because more likelier than not, the port isn't even in a state where it's complete without the feature. One of Larian's cofounders said they can make it work eventually but decided to focus their resources on other platforms first. There's no indication there's a complete xbox version out there for XSX/XSS.

Secondly, MS not only has a parity clause across their two devices but also the PS5, meaning they won't allow Larian to publish a "gimped" version on xbox while the PS5 has extra features.

It'll just come with feature parity whenever its ready.

 

[Panajev2001a]

They can't just "remove split screen and release it" not only because of microsoft's parity clause but also because more likelier than not, the port isn't even in a state where it's complete without the feature. One of Larian's cofounders said they can make it work eventually but decided to focus their resources on other platforms first. There's no indication there's a complete xbox version out there for XSX/XSS.

Secondly, MS not only has a parity clause across their two devices but also the PS5, meaning they won't allow Larian to publish a "gimped" version on xbox while the PS5 has extra features.

It'll just come with feature parity whenever its ready.

So you either hold back all your console releases or completely skip Xbox for a while giving PS5 temporary exclusives… this makes more sense than sending the US Senate to investigate in Japan . Coupled with actual console sales it does explain a few things.

 

[nowhat]

One of Larian's cofounders said they can make it work eventually but decided to focus their resources on other platforms first. There's no indication there's a complete xbox version out there for XSX/XSS.

There's an interview with Larian Studios founder on Friends Per Second (are you referring to that? I tried to get the timestamp right, but if not, just check the chapters):



What he's basically saying is that they tried for long to get a simultaneous release across all platforms, but that was hindering the development. So they prioritized first getting the PC version out of the door, then they can concentrate on polishing the PS5 version for a month. As for the Xbox Series versions, they are being worked on, but will be released when they're done and that may take some time. Like the Switch port of DOS 2 which came a year after the PS4/XBone versions (which, in turn, came a year after the PC version).

 

[Sleepwalker]

There's an interview with Larian Studios founder on Friends Per Second (I tried to get the timestamp right, but if not, just check the chapters):



What he's basically saying is that they tried for long to get a simultaneous release across all platforms, but that was hindering the development. So they prioritized first getting the PC version out of the door, then they can concentrate on polishing the PS5 version for a month. As for the Xbox Series versions, they are being worked on, but will be released when they're done and that may take some time. Like the Switch port of DOS 2 which came a year after the PS4/XBone versions (which, in turn, came a year after the PC version).

Thats the exact interview I was referencing, just couldn't be arsed sourcing it.

 

[systemr123]

They can't just "remove split screen and release it" not only because of microsoft's parity clause but also because more likelier than not, the port isn't even in a state where it's complete without the feature. One of Larian's cofounders said they can make it work eventually but decided to focus their resources on other platforms first. There's no indication there's a complete xbox version out there for XSX/XSS.

Secondly, MS not only has a parity clause across their two devices but also the PS5, meaning they won't allow Larian to publish a "gimped" version on xbox while the PS5 has extra features.

It'll just come with feature parity whenever its ready.

Sooooo, maybe never if we see how Halo Infinite’s splitscreen option went. MS really F*cked up with their console designs together with their weird parity stuff and other rules which devs need to abide to, to release anything on their platform.

I can understand MS saying that a game should work the same on the X and S, but it creates a world of problems when you think of the different setups even these 2 systems have.

I want MS to enforce this since I have both an X and an S but it’s plain stupidity how they created this issue themselves and there does not seem to be an easy solution.

 

[Big Baller]

 

[fuck_diggity_cunt_ingdon]

They should just drop the parity rule and save themselves a lot of bother.

If the consumer wants feature complete they should be looking at the higher price point option. If they don’t want that, then that choice AND sacrifice is on the consumer.

If they can’t afford or don’t want to pay the higher price point then truthfully they should be reassessing their choice in hobby.

 

[SHA]

I don't understand how people liked this game, strategy/turn based isn't my type, it's not even a premium gameplay experience imo.

 

[Ivory Samoan]

That could possibly the most deluded head canon thread I've ever seen...
....convinced the Devs are still at fault, and the S is some weird powerhouse of industry.

Just roll it out at 540p 30fps for S and maybe it'll work then in terms of RAM? I dunno how ram works, but dialiing it down to crazy low would help surely?

Note: I'm playing on a beast of a PC with controller, and feel sad for the Xbox community - have Xbox S as well, never used it, but it's there in the spare room.

 

[nowhat]

I don't understand how people liked this game, strategy/turn based isn't my type, it's not even a premium gameplay experience imo.

 

[MidGenRefresh]

I don't understand how people liked this game, strategy/turn based isn't my type, it's not even a premium gameplay experience imo.

What’s a premium gaming experience? Walk in a straight line, pew pew pew, climb a bird shit stained ledge, 5 min cutscene… repeat? Honest question.

 

[SHA]

What’s a premium gaming experience? Walk in a straight line, pew pew pew, climb a bird shit stained ledge, 5 min cutscene… repeat? Honest question.

It's not rpg, they pulled every rpg element and call it an rpg game, that camera angle is for blizzard titles , aoe and cac, others are copycats, at least that's how I grew up playing pc games.

 

[MidGenRefresh]

It's not rpg, they pulled every rpg element and call it an rpg game, that camera angle is for blizzard titles , aoe and cac, others are copycats, at least that's how I grew up playing pc games.

Shit take of the year award goes to you, sir.

 

[OmegaSupreme]

That could possibly the most deluded head canon thread I've ever seen...
....convinced the Devs are still at fault, and the S is some weird powerhouse of industry.

Just roll it out at 540p 30fps for S and maybe it'll work then in terms of RAM? I dunno how ram works, but dialiing it down to crazy low would help surely?

Note: I'm playing on a beast of a PC with controller, and feel sad for the Xbox community - have Xbox S as well, never used it, but it's there in the spare room.

They are saying the same shit here. Despite evidence to the contrary.

 

[Ar¢tos]

I don't understand how people liked this game, strategy/turn based isn't my type, it's not even a premium gameplay experience imo.

If I was a gold member, I would give you a treasure reaction because your post is so stupid, it should be locked in a chest and buried forever , but because I'm not I can only give you empathy because it's hard to feel anything else but pity for you.

 

[yamaci17]

That could possibly the most deluded head canon thread I've ever seen...
....convinced the Devs are still at fault, and the S is some weird powerhouse of industry.

Just roll it out at 540p 30fps for S and maybe it'll work then in terms of RAM? I dunno how ram works, but dialiing it down to crazy low would help surely?

Note: I'm playing on a beast of a PC with controller, and feel sad for the Xbox community - have Xbox S as well, never used it, but it's there in the spare room.

you can run flight simulator at 100p, it will still have insane RAM requirements as it runs tons of crucial simulations in the background

 

[mxbison]

Right now, the issue is that BG3 split-screen co-op seemingly requires more than 8GB ram. So of course certain folks say "well it only affects split screen co-op who cares" "works on 99.9% of games, series S isn't an issue" etc.

Now let's think - how many games have been gutted to fit into 8GB of ram which we don't know about? How many systems are left on the cutting room floor after the tech lead has gone to the designer and said "you can have these systems or that other bigger system, but not both - you choose"?

We will probably never find out, but the fact is that for cross-platform games, they need to fit into 8GB of (pretty slow) ram to work across Series S|X and PS5. This will obviously impact the next 5 years of cross-platform games unless the requirements for S|X games to have feature parity are dropped.

Sony first-party games will not be hamstrung like this, but any 3rd-party cross-platform game will be. Exclusive-by-default games may be the outcome of the series S design due to devs not wanting to compromise their designs to fit into such a small amount of ram (BG3 is possibly the first example, but I doubt it will be the last).

People saying minimum requirements don't matter was always ridiculous.

I really don't know how that caught on so much.

 

[foamdino]

you can run flight simulator at 100p, it will still have insane RAM requirements as it runs tons of crucial simulations in the background

Microsoft effectively gaslit everyone to believe that RAM was only used for graphics and therefor the amount in Series S was enough for the target resolution - however it's used for much more and that appears to be the limit that devs are now bumping up against.

Alongside the fact that the Series S is in effect MS "current-gen" machine and the X is actually the mid-gen refresh, obviously they won't want to drop support for the Series S - such a mess and a real pity that XBox owners right now cannot enjoy (in my opinion) the game of the generation.

 

[skit_data]

Right now, the issue is that BG3 split-screen co-op seemingly requires more than 8GB ram. So of course certain folks say "well it only affects split screen co-op who cares" "works on 99.9% of games, series S isn't an issue" etc.

Now let's think - how many games have been gutted to fit into 8GB of ram which we don't know about? How many systems are left on the cutting room floor after the tech lead has gone to the designer and said "you can have these systems or that other bigger system, but not both - you choose"?

We will probably never find out, but the fact is that for cross-platform games, they need to fit into 8GB of (pretty slow) ram to work across Series S|X and PS5. This will obviously impact the next 5 years of cross-platform games unless the requirements for S|X games to have feature parity are dropped.

Sony first-party games will not be hamstrung like this, but any 3rd-party cross-platform game will be. Exclusive-by-default games may be the outcome of the series S design due to devs not wanting to compromise their designs to fit into such a small amount of ram (BG3 is possibly the first example, but I doubt it will be the last).

Called this back in 2021 but I actually didn't think it would pan out in such an obvious way with real world examples of the the Series S delaying the launch of a game:

-The end result probably wont be a huge issue, since devs have to target it before actually building the game. This will probably lead to a relatively satisfying result for the end user.

-That said, we will because of this never know how games would’ve been designed if Series S wasnt the lowest common denominator. Its very possible interesting stuff will be scrapped before entering full on development.

Both these statements are can be true, and probably are.

 

[LordCBH]

It's not rpg, they pulled every rpg element and call it an rpg game, that camera angle is for blizzard titles , aoe and cac, others are copycats, at least that's how I grew up playing pc games.

A perfect example to not drink and smoke while pregnant. Your kid could turn out like this.

 

[RoboFu]

Microsoft effectively gaslit everyone to believe that RAM was only used for graphics and therefor the amount in Series S was enough for the target resolution - however it's used for much more and that appears to be the limit that devs are now bumping up against.

Alongside the fact that the Series S is in effect MS "current-gen" machine and the X is actually the mid-gen refresh, obviously they won't want to drop support for the Series S - such a mess and a real pity that XBox owners right now cannot enjoy (in my opinion) the game of the generation.

Dude ram is mostly used for graphics. That’s the problem here. Split screen means there can be more textures / sounds on screen at a time with double the frame buffers.

Plus I would love to see a console (not game console) app that’s over a gig usually they barely get over a few hundred meg.

 

[Topher]

It's not rpg, they pulled every rpg element and call it an rpg game, that camera angle is for blizzard titles , aoe and cac, others are copycats, at least that's how I grew up playing pc games.