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[The_IGN_Man]

I haven't read any of the posts in this thread really, but after seeing this document, I can honestly say that I see why Nintendo didn't want in on this little war between MS and Sony at this year's E3. As much as Nintendo side-skirts some of the technical questions thrown at them, and for all the times they say "it's the games that matter, not the specs", this just proves it. Who cares about anything that document had to say?!? If you do, you're in gaming for all the wrong reasons.

 

[Mrbob]

If Nintendo would have unveiled their hardware specs, it would have united Sony and MS fans onto one big pile on Nintendo.

 

[GhaleonEB]

I haven't read any of the posts in this thread really, but after seeing this document, I can honestly say that I see why Nintendo didn't want in on this little war between MS and Sony at this year's E3. As much as Nintendo side-skirts some of the technical questions thrown at them, and for all the times they say "it's the games that matter, not the specs", this just proves it. Who cares about anything that document had to say?!? If you do, you're in gaming for all the wrong reasons.

I find this entire discussion hypocritical. All those posts about Sony blowing MS out of the water with 2x the power...then things got murkier....now MS fires back and all of a sudden the entire thing is bullshit.

What has really happened is that MS is playing Sony at their own game, and it just highlights two things in my mind: How much better Sony is at making a splash with their numbers, and how boring the entire spec saga is.

 

[Joe]

its amazing that sony can come out a full year later and still have have weaker hardware.

MS has really beaten the hardware company at its own game.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

:lol :lol :lol


thank god Nintendo is out of the numbers game

This was enough to help me understand what we are in for the next 8-10 months

Hype vs Hype

 

[GhaleonEB]

its amazing that sony can come out a full year later and still have have weaker hardware.

MS has really beaten the hardware company at its own game.

Well....it's more like 4-5 months later, given the spring release of PS3 and late fall 360, but yeah.

 

[TKM]

Hmm so all those smart people at Microsoft didn't realize that SPEs are NOT DSPs. :lol

 

[Cold-Steel]

I'll take Epic (who is the provider for middleware on both systems) word on Unreal Engine 3.0 over this PR bullshit.

Fact: PS3 is the first time UE3 has run at 60FPS with no hitches.

Microsoft damage control is out. Where's Perfect Dark Zero again?

 

[MightyHedgehog]

Who cares about anything that document had to say?!? If you do, you're in gaming for all the wrong reasons.

Not true. This stuff is genuinely interesting stuff. Perhaps not the intent behind the writing that bring forth this kind of curiousity and forum posting, but the actual workings of the technology itself and how it compares. You can 'care' about the techological means while still caring about the end (games). Video games and technology go hand in hand with tech empowering the creators and their games and the games giving validity to the technology. The games give the technology purpose so, of course, games are the most important part of the whole thing.

 

[teiresias]

Good to see the usual suspects lap up the MS PR as eagerly as they usually do.

 

[IJoel]

Fact: PS3 is the first time UE3 has run at 60FPS with no hitches.

Where is this interview? (really, I just wonder)

 

[Odysseus]

Good to see the usual suspects lap up the MS PR as eagerly as they usually do.

There are lapdogs here for every company's PR, let's not get myopic.

Oh, and about this article: Meh.

 

[Mrbob]

I'll take Epic (who is the provider for middleware on both systems) word on Unreal Engine 3.0 over this PR bullshit.

Fact: PS3 is the first time UE3 has run at 60FPS with no hitches.

Microsoft damage control is out. Where's Perfect Dark Zero again?

To be fair, Epic prefer OPENGL and Nvidia, since that is where their expertise is. I know they are bring UE 3.0 to Xbox 360, and it'll kick ass. But I expect the UE3.0 on PS3 to be more highly tuned, since that is an enviroment Epic is more familiar with. Although knowing Epic past history they'll figure out a way to squeeze as much power out of the 360 as they can with UE3.0.

Where is this interview? (really, I just wonder)

You can download a video online. It looks REALLY sweet. It was done under 2 months too....

 

[TheDuce22]

They are both playing games, you can fault one and not the other. Nobody had a problem with Sony doing it.

 

[Amir0x]

Well....it's more like 4-5 months later, given the spring release of PS3 and late fall 360, but yeah.

Except the whole Xbox360 not actually being more powerful than PS3 part. Other than that, though, yeah...

 

[Rhindle]

After extensive research, exhaustive analysis and comprehensive benchmark testing, I have reached the following conslusions:

1. Xbox360 games are going to look good.

2. PS3 games are going to look good.

 

[Joe]

my friend just saw this article and he couldnt believe the 360 will be more powerful. hes buying 360 now instead of ps3. wow, how did MS do it?

 

[FightyF]

I'll take Epic (who is the provider for middleware on both systems) word on Unreal Engine 3.0 over this PR bullshit.

Fact: PS3 is the first time UE3 has run at 60FPS with no hitches.

Microsoft damage control is out. Where's Perfect Dark Zero again?

I like how calling something "Damage Control" is damage control in and of itself.

 

[Zaptruder]

XDouches is the new Xbots!

 

[Shaheed79]

I can't wait to play those graphs in my PS3 and 360! You can shoves those diagrams up Iwata's ass along with that Gameboy Micro the games will do the talking.

 

[midnightguy]

Also because the 256GB/s figure that they are throwing around isn't even from GPU to eDRAM, its from eDRAM to eDRAM.



http://anandtech.com/tradeshows/showdoc.aspx?i=2423&p=2

People say Sony like to pull the wool over consumers eyes, but hell, MS is telling tha straight up truth yo!

I thought it was that the 256 GB/s figure is from the 192 processors within the daughter die to eDRAM within the daughter die

 

[DopeyFish]

I though it was that the 256 GB/s figure is from the 192 processors within the daughter die to eDRAM within the daughter die

This is correct, edram has 22 GB/s write 16 GB/s read or something like that to and from the Xenos GPU

 

[midnightguy]

I'm surprised MS has struck back so soon. This is going to be a great generation. The Evil Empire is here, last gen, it was their representative. We are going to get the real deal now

Im not surprised. this was expected since 2000, when MS first announced the original Xbox.

they said they would not come out with a new system until 4 years after the original

then in 2003, the reports about Xenon started coming in, being prepared for a 2005 launch, so we knew Microsoft was keeping to its word, at least in that regard.

 

[Guy LeDouche]

I'll take Epic (who is the provider for middleware on both systems) word on Unreal Engine 3.0 over this PR bullshit.

Fact: PS3 is the first time UE3 has run at 60FPS with no hitches.

Microsoft damage control is out. Where's Perfect Dark Zero again?

Testify!

 

[mashoutposse]

its amazing that sony can come out a full year later and still have have weaker hardware.

MS has really beaten the hardware company at its own game.

It's amazing that people actually believe a "document" that passes off the following as a valid and correct statement:

Bandwidth
The PS3 has 22.4 GB/s of GDDR3 bandwidth and 25.6 GB/s of RDRAM bandwidth
for a total system bandwidth of 48 GB/s.

The Xbox 360 has 22.4 GB/s of GDDR3 bandwidth and a 256 GB/s of EDRAM
bandwidth for a total of 278.4 GB/s total system bandwidth.

That's the dumbest shit I've ever read. Going by that logic, PS3 would have less "total system bandwidth" than PS2 (PS2: 51.2GB/s). Does that sound even remotely plausible to you?

 

[DopeyFish]

It's amazing that people actually believe a "document" that passes off the following as a valid and correct statement:



That's the dumbest shit I've ever read. Going by that logic, PS3 would have less "total system bandwidth" than PS2 (PS2: 51.2GB/s). Does that sound even remotely plausible to you?

Well 256 GB/s is actually an entirely valid number. It's an external bandwidth between the edram and it's logic (sort of like a 2nd processor on the die)

So it counts in that case. If they started using all other bandwidth then the numbers may shift, but as an external bandwidth comparison, this is a proper comparison.

edit: wait now i see what you're saying

PS3 has a big bandwidth bus between RSX and Cell doesn't it? But then again that's internal bandwidth i think. *scratches head*

 

[Joe]

Going by that logic, PS3 would have less "total system bandwidth" than PS2 (PS2: 51.2GB/s). Does that sound even remotely plausible to you?

wtf? someone at sony is gonna get fired. so 360 > ps2 + ps3 COMBINED??? wow.

 

[Big Shirtless Ron]

wtf? someone at sony is gonna get fired. so 360 > ps2 + ps3 COMBINED??? wow.

you're not serious, are you? :lol

 

[teiresias]

May as well count the bandwidth of each SPE SRAM interconnect and multiply by 7 then.

And Joe is obviously a joke character at this point.

PS3 has a big bandwidth bus between RSX and Cell doesn't it? But then again that's internal bandwidth i think. *scratches head*

I don't understand what you're asking. There's a FlexIO connection between Cell and RSX which isn't counted here because they're obviously discussing memory bandwidth, and then Cell has its own dedicated connect to 256MB XDR RAM, and the RSX has its own dedicated conection to 256MB GDDR3 VRAM (though RSX is able to address all of the main RAM in the system, obviously not stuff like SPE RAM).

 

[mashoutposse]

Well 256 GB/s is actually an entirely valid number. It's an external bandwidth between the edram and it's logic (sort of like a 2nd processor on the die)

So it counts in that case. If they started using all other bandwidth then the numbers may shift, but as an external bandwidth comparison, this is a proper comparison.

edit: wait now i see what you're saying

PS3 has a big bandwidth bus between RSX and Cell doesn't it? But then again that's internal bandwidth i think. *scratches head*

No one is arguing the validity of the 256GB/s number.

But it's like saying PS2 is more powerful than XBOX because PS2 has 48GB/s of bandwidth to its 4MB EDRAM compared to XBOX's shared 6.4GB/s. Sounds incredibly stupid given the end result of 99% of the games, doesn't it?

 

[Cold-Steel]

UE3 is the leading choice of middleware on next generation platforms.

When a UE3 tech demo is developed in only two months and runs at 60FPS without a hitch on PS3 versus Gears of War which can barely hold a stable framerate and has been in development for more than double that time, I begin to wonder exactly who is lying to who in terms of realtime performance.

We've all seen the realtime demos: one ran smoothly, the other didn't.

The latter claims their console is vastly superior in power yet can't hold a performance cap for people to see and leaves many games in development running on alpha kits and unplayable on the showroom floor.

Does this make sense to anyone?

 

[Mike Works]

You're all so quick to jump on the "Microsoft is spinning", "Microsoft with their damage control" bandwagons, but have we seen any actual PS3 games RUNNING and being PLAYED?

No.

Honestly, you may view it as spin, but I think they're being very honest with some of these charts.

It's not Microsoft's fault that Sony isn't delivering.

 

[Black Widow]

The whole thing is amusing including those jumping to credit or discredit and not knowing what any of it means. :lol

 

[mashoutposse]

You're all so quick to jump on the "Microsoft is spinning", "Microsoft with their damage control" bandwagons, but have we seen any actual PS3 games RUNNING and being PLAYED?

No.

Honestly, you may view it as spin, but I think they're being very honest with some of these charts.

It's not Microsoft's fault that Sony isn't delivering.

Although I'm sure you're not being serious, note that the UE3 demo was interactive.

 

[Cold-Steel]

1) Six months to launch.
2) Alpha kits.
3) Unstable framerate on most games.
4) Most games unplayable.
5) No final hardware.

Who isn't delivering?

 

[CrimsonSkies]

When a UE3 tech demo is developed in only two months and runs at 60FPS without a hitch on PS3 versus Gears of War which can barely hold a stable framerate and has been in development for more than double that time, I begin to wonder exactly who is lying to who in terms of realtime performance.

Night and day difference between what's in the alpha kits for each console. One ATI card versus Two GeForce Ultras in SLI mode.

 

[Joe]

The whole thing is amusing including those jumping to credit or discredit and not knowing what any of it means. :lol

i know my flops when i see them and well, the ps3...

 

[Andvary]

You're all so quick to jump on the "Microsoft is spinning", "Microsoft with their damage control" bandwagons, but have we seen any actual PS3 games RUNNING and being PLAYED?

No.

Honestly, you may view it as spin, but I think they're being very honest with some of these charts.

It's not Microsoft's fault that Sony isn't delivering.

:lol

 

[Odysseus]

I don't think people paid much attention to Mike's chart, and thus missed the joke.

 

[Cold-Steel]

:lol I just caught that.

 

[Mrbob]

You're all so quick to jump on the "Microsoft is spinning", "Microsoft with their damage control" bandwagons, but have we seen any actual PS3 games RUNNING and being PLAYED?

No.

Honestly, you may view it as spin, but I think they're being very honest with some of these charts.

It's not Microsoft's fault that Sony isn't delivering.

:lol

I hope you guys caught that graph! :lol

 

[IJoel]

UE3 is the leading choice of middleware on next generation platforms.

When a UE3 tech demo is developed in only two months and runs at 60FPS without a hitch on PS3 versus Gears of War which can barely hold a stable framerate and has been in development for more than double that time, I begin to wonder exactly who is lying to who in terms of realtime performance.

We've all seen the realtime demos: one ran smoothly, the other didn't.

The latter claims their console is vastly superior in power yet can't hold a performance cap for people to see and leaves many games in development running on alpha kits and unplayable on the showroom floor.

Does this make sense to anyone?

Three things to consider:
1. The level of complexity in the demo shown for the UE in the PS3 presentation isn't necessarily the same as in GoW.
2. GoW is actually a game, not a demo.
3. You don't know how close to their full potential each development kit is.

Now, I'm not saying anything about the specs, because I find the comparison pretty ridiculous, but this statement you're making is baseless, unless UE developers said it.

Oh, and I actually checked out the video again, and it didn't seem to me like it was running at 60 fps. I actually saw it chugging a bit a couple times and even saw screen tearing. Not that it matters to me, but since you seem so convinced it's running at 60 fps, well, it makes me wonder if I'm looking at the same video.

 

[mashoutposse]

just caught it whoops

 

[PS2 KID]

You're all so quick to jump on the "Microsoft is spinning", "Microsoft with their damage control" bandwagons, but have we seen any actual PS3 games RUNNING and being PLAYED?

No.

Honestly, you may view it as spin, but I think they're being very honest with some of these charts.

It's not Microsoft's fault that Sony isn't delivering.

Mike, I give in. You have no doubt convinced me of the performance gap between the 360 and the PS3.

 

[teiresias]

No doubt this is what the Xbox360 vs. PS3 "checklist" for this generation will be based on. :lol

 

[Black Widow]

Hey MS tried to play the honest Joe at E3. This is where we are in development with our games. Sites like Eurogamer trashed them into the sewer with garbage like "this is next gen" in regard to SONYs tech demos. MS fights back a bit. All good theatre. I'm lovin it. Be funny if it was true though. I posted how disappointed I was in SONY for even coming close to the MS spec. Now, potentially I have to live with them being number two again in power and hear the Xbots crowing for the next 4-5 years, again. Who knows but anything is indeed possible. The cell had so much potential but couldn;t get the job done graphically. So now we have a forced marriage between SONY and nVidia and what might be and probably is an unoptimized solution. Whether more powerful or not than the 360 the most ardent PS fanboy has to admit that the fact that this discussion is even being considered is totaly disappointing.

 

[CosmicGroinPull]

The whole thing is amusing including those jumping to credit or discredit and not knowing what any of it means. :lol

Well, I have read and understood the folks at Beyond3D's take on this. May I LMAO now?

;p

 

[TheDuce22]

Im just amazed that MS viral marketers acted so fast and so effectively. The PR battle is going to get ugly.

 

[GhaleonEB]

You're all so quick to jump on the "Microsoft is spinning", "Microsoft with their damage control" bandwagons, but have we seen any actual PS3 games RUNNING and being PLAYED?

No.

Honestly, you may view it as spin, but I think they're being very honest with some of these charts.

It's not Microsoft's fault that Sony isn't delivering.

How many people didn't notice what he did to the chart?

:lol :lol

 

[seismologist]

I just dont even care any more. Anyone who buys the Xbox 360 expecting it to be more powerful than the PS3 deserves what they get. :lol